Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[John Adams]

31 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

American media is manipulating us, with Ukrainian propaganda, into war. 
 

This isn’t a game.  
 

They could do the same to us with Yemen, Somalia or Ethiopia but they don’t benefit us or look like us.  
 

Russia is obviously the aggressor.   Ukraine is a sovereign country being full scale invaded.  
 

But our media and politicians are playing a dangerous game that will result in dead Americans… and then we’ll wonder why we didn’t learn anything from Iraq.  
 

Some may think American sacrifice of life is worth it to stop this.  And i don’t particularly blame them.  But, again, this isn’t a game.  This isn’t a movie script.  And that’s what we’re being shown. 

 

I see one person here advocating US military involvement in Ukraine and few people advocating for it in the media. 

 

Turn down the hype machine. 

 

I am a firm believer in the evils of the military industrial complex but ours and NATO's current position of restraint is firm. It may be tested by Russian actions in Ukraine and out of it. We will see. 

21 minutes ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

@John Adams @Over 29 years of fanhood @All_Pro_Bills @Doc @Warcodered @BillStime @SC BIlls Fan @Tiberius

 

You guys have a lot of good thoughts.

Why are we not just cutting off Russian oil supplies like Obama did in 2014-2016?

 

Even dummy Trump followed Obama's lead and imported no Russian oil from 2016-2020 (in honesty there was a dribble in Dec 2020)

Why did Biden import 220 million plus barrels of Russian oil in 2021 after Trump imported 0 and Obama imported 0 for his last 2 years?

Seems backwards to me. Biden must be smarter than all of us.

 

Did that help fund the current war? If Russia gets 30-50% of it's government funding from oil, and we go from importing 0 barrels under Obama and even Trump, to importing 220 million barrels a year under Biden, even at the low cost of $52 a barrel, isn't that $10 billion or so US Dollars to Russia that they did not get under Obama or Trump? Maybe I am bad at math. $52 (minimum) * 220,000,000 (minimum)

 

I am sure you have Green New Deal math that will fix it and explain it all for me. Should we meet in Paris to discuss it??

 

What has been the US investment in weapons in Ukraine over the past 10 years? Certainly no one would want to profit from weapons production and death, that is not Democratic at all! We wouldn't do such a thing!

 

If the USA is taking 'tough sanctions' against Russia, but is still importing 750k - 1,000,000 million barrels of oil a day from Russia, is that really tough sanctions?

 

I guess I don't understand how buying things from someone at a profit makes them weaker. You will have to explain that to me with your fancy economics. Even Obama understood this was a bad idea, and I don't think he was good at economics.

 

CNN and MNBC, who only tell the truth, said all international payments systems like SWIFT to Russia were being shut down.

How is Russia getting paid for all of that oil and natural gas then?!?! Is Russia doing it all on good credit to the USA/NATO?

CNN and MSNBC also said Russia is invading to stop USA/NATO from encroaching on Ukraine. So confusing. Is Russia potentially fueling its own enemy? Or is it getting rich from it? So confusing. Crazy talk, darned Russians.... they are so sneaky....

 

I am even more confused about Nord Stream 1 in Germany now, and why Germany/EU won't stop natural gas imports and payments in Euros to Russia....

How is that happening? Russians are so good at getting Dollars and Euros... it's almost too easy for them

 

Russia is very silly if they are not getting paid now. They have an Army to feed. It is in the Ukraine.

 

It is almost like the USA and EU are paying for the Russian army, that is in the Ukraine right now! Well that is crazy talk. All the big weapons manufacturers of USA and Europe are supplying Ukraine with hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment to stop that. Even Germany is sending weapons to Ukraine now. It's almost like the people who make weapons just want to make money. That would be terrible!

 

This is all clearly in the name of Ukrainian Democracy.....

 

What are you 12? Stop tagging people moran. 

 

If you post something worthy of response, people will respond to it. 

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

11 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You want an energy crisis here? That would help Putin 

 

The energy crisis already happened when oil went from @50 a barrel to @90 a barrel from 2/1/2021 to 2/1/2022.

That was before the Invasion.

 

Why did Obama in his last 2 years, and Trump in all 4 not import oil from Russia?

Why did genius Biden break from that strategy?

 

Aren't a few cents more a gallon worth Ukrainian independence?

[Niagara Bill]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

Not to be ultra-contrarian, but keeping Zelenskyy alive is exactly what keeps this bloody war ongoing.  
 

We can root for Ukraine, and should absolutely support them with weapons - because they want to fight - but the more they want to fight, the bloodier this gets… *assuming the West doesn’t get directly involved.  
 

I am in no way suggesting assassination is a good thing.  Zelenskyy is inspiring and embodies the Ukrainian spirit, but from a Russian perspective - the war only gets bloodier with him continuing 

You are correct in saying the more he fights the worse it gets, so...why not just have Moldova, Lithuania, Estonia,  Finland, Slovenia, Czech etc give up now. Let's throw in Taiwan for China. 

 

Putin is the issue. 

To stop blood shed stop fighting for freedom. Heck, you got Americans, Canadian and Brits fighting for freedom over a flippin mask. 

 

[BillStime]

14 minutes ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

Why did Obama in his last 2 years, and Trump in all 4 not import oil from Russia?

 

Why are you repeating this (now several times) without actually sourcing it?

 

I'll just leave this right here... AGAIN:

 

 

 

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

That’s right, cities with millions of people are being bombarded by shells. That’s not propaganda, it’s the truth. 

Its also happening in Yemen… with allied bombs dropped by the Saudis and UAE. 
 

Edited March 2, 2022 by SCBills

[Doc]

 

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

American media is manipulating us, with Ukrainian propaganda, into war. 
 

This isn’t a game.  
 

They could do the same to us with Yemen, Somalia or Ethiopia but they don’t benefit us or look like us.  
 

Russia is obviously the aggressor.   Ukraine is a sovereign country being full scale invaded.  
 

But our media and politicians are playing a dangerous game that will result in dead Americans… and then we’ll wonder why we didn’t learn anything from Iraq.  
 

Some may think American sacrifice of life is worth it to stop this.  And i don’t particularly blame them.  But, again, this isn’t a game.  This isn’t a movie script.  And that’s what we’re being shown. 

 

The media is trying, but it's not just America's decision: it's NATO's and they're not going to war over it.

[muppy]

3 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

American media is manipulating us, with Ukrainian propaganda, into war. 
 

This isn’t a game.  
 

They could do the same to us with Yemen, Somalia or Ethiopia but they don’t benefit us or look like us.  
 

Russia is obviously the aggressor.   Ukraine is a sovereign country being full scale invaded.  
 

But our media and politicians are playing a dangerous game that will result in dead Americans… and then we’ll wonder why we didn’t learn anything from Iraq.  
 

Some may think American sacrifice of life is worth it to stop this.  And i don’t particularly blame them.  But, again, this isn’t a game.  This isn’t a movie script.  And that’s what we’re being shown. 

the script we are being shown is scary...very. It gives me much anxiety. To me it comes down to a question of who has the ultimate control over wether this conflict escalates to a WW3. For me that squarely lands in the hands of the despot putin. NOT a comforting thought. The fact that you think that our or any government can be played by the media scares me. I would hope our decision makers are more sensible and astutely smart as to allow that.  Especially knowing the worldwide dire consequences alleged*  Lord have Mercy.

3 hours ago, John Adams said:

 

I see one person here advocating US military involvement in Ukraine and few people advocating for it in the media. 

 

Turn down the hype machine. 

 

I am a firm believer in the evils of the military industrial complex but ours and NATO's current position of restraint is firm. It may be tested by Russian actions in Ukraine and out of it. We will see. 

 

What are you 12? Stop tagging people moran. 

 

If you post something worthy of response, people will respond to it. 

ahem why did You feel it necessary to name call someone Im calling That out. wtf. 

 

smh

[John Adams]

8 minutes ago, muppy said:

 

ahem why did You feel it necessary to name call someone Im calling That out. wtf. 

 

smh

 

Don't really care. Tagging 10 people in a thread we're all active in is childish attention-craving behavior. 

[wnyguy]

1 minute ago, John Adams said:

 

Don't really care. Tagging 10 people in a thread we're all active in is childish attention-craving behavior. 

@John Adams or maybe he was just interested in reading your response to his post? 

[Warcodered]

4 hours ago, SCBills said:

Not to be ultra-contrarian, but keeping Zelenskyy alive is exactly what keeps this bloody war ongoing.  
 

We can root for Ukraine, and should absolutely support them with weapons - because they want to fight - but the more they want to fight, the bloodier this gets… *assuming the West doesn’t get directly involved.  
 

I am in no way suggesting assassination is a good thing.  Zelenskyy is inspiring and embodies the Ukrainian spirit, but from a Russian perspective - the war only gets bloodier with him continuing to resist. 

The war will continue as long as Russian continues to invade/occupy Ukraine. If they'd stop it would be over.

[John Adams]

17 minutes ago, wnyguy said:

@John Adams or maybe he was just interested in reading your response to his post? 

 

Cute (by the way I have all mentions blocked, so it's not about tagging me...I don't get an alert when it happens). Still don't care. If his comment is worth responding to, it will get responses. So far he's posted the exact same thing twice. The second time he tagged 10 people. It's immature. Feel free to encourage him. 

 

Quote a collection of Russian supporters. Syria, Eritrea, North Korea, BElarus.

 

 

 

 

I see very little coverage of the fact that today's peace talks were postponed. That's terrible news. I suspect Russia wants to bomb the cities more and try to build leverage. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by John Adams

[SCBills]

20 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

The war will continue as long as Russian continues to invade/occupy Ukraine. If they'd stop it would be over.

Obviously.  
 

If you know they won’t stop, then the only other option is a peace deal, or removal, of/with Zelenskyy.  
 

Of course, it’s unacceptable to kill him, but if you’re a Russian of influence - who believes Putin won’t stop -  and you want to stop the bloodshed.. unfortunately protecting the man leading the resistance continues the bloodshed.  
 

Again, just giving you the contrarian view.  I’m obviously not advocating for that.   Ukraine should be commended for fighting, but the harder they fight, the more innocent will die. 
 

Without the West’s direct involvement, this is a suicide mission.  
 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by SCBills

[John Adams]

Depending on what "take over" means, 15 days is probably right if it means occupy many Kyiv government buildings and install (weird Al?) Yanukovych who can puppet from some fortified Kyiv bunker. 

 

 

[LeGOATski]

37 minutes ago, muppy said:

the script we are being shown is scary...very. It gives me much anxiety. To me it comes down to a question of who has the ultimate control over wether this conflict escalates to a WW3. For me that squarely lands in the hands of the despot putin. NOT a comforting thought. The fact that you think that our or any government can be played by the media scares me. I would hope our decision makers are more sensible and astutely smart as to allow that.  Especially knowing the worldwide dire consequences alleged*  Lord have Mercy.

I don't think WW3 is in Putin's hands. I think WW3 only happens if the west wants it to. We'll let Putin take Ukraine in order to prevent that. But it's a slippery slope. Seems like China would feel better targeting SE Asia countries at this point. I think it's ultimately more accurate to say WW3 is in China's hands.

[muppy]

 

[snafu]

15 hours ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

 

Largely agree.

 

If the USA and Europe are actually waging economic warfare against Russia they would block oil and natural gas exports from Russia. They are not. Russian energy exports to the USA and Europe continue. Russia is not exporting energy on the 'good credit' of the EU/USA/NATO during a war, where those same countries 'condemn them' in the media.

 

If a commodity is being exported, then a financial instrument remains in place to facilitate trade, despite what the Main Stream Media says.

If a loophole exists for energy exports why isn't this being reported? Wouldn't the Russian oligarchs have access to these instruments of trade and banking too?

 

It is naive and laughable that the Russian economy is being weakened, while energy exports, that fund 30-50% of the Russian Government budget continue.

 

I don't think the US has a problem cutting off Russian oil imports.  I think our country should do that.

But NATO is comprised of 30 countries.  I'm sure that there are a majority of member nations who can't realistically cut off Russian energy.  When you sanction, you generally don't want to hurt yourself (too much), and until the alternatives to Russian energy are put in place, there will be a lot of self-harm to European countries.

 

I have heard that the Germans, as part of their about-face, have authorized two Liquid Natural Gas processing facilities to take in imports of replacement energy.  I'd wager that until those are online (and probably other measures) the Germans can't really make a change.

 

About your last sentence:  I think the Russian economy is being hurt -- just not as much as it CAN be hurt.  Putin is afraid to open up the Russian stock market, and the currency has lost 30% of its value.  There will always be countries to buy Russian oil (China) and wheat (China), and other Russian exports (Brazil).

 

 

 

[SCBills]

Interesting tweet thread:

 

 

[John Adams]

3 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Interesting tweet thread:

 

 

 

Agreed--read that thread this morning. 

[Warcodered]

 

[PetermansRedemption]

9 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

One of the best things I’ve seen today. 

[aristocrat]

 

 

Looks like Putin losing the Oligarchs. Roman doesn't want to end up being tried for war crimes

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, John Adams said:

 

Cute (by the way I have all mentions blocked, so it's not about tagging me...I don't get an alert when it happens). Still don't care. If his comment is worth responding to, it will get responses. So far he's posted the exact same thing twice. The second time he tagged 10 people. It's immature. Feel free to encourage him. 

 

Quote a collection of Russian supporters. Syria, Eritrea, North Korea, BElarus.

 

 

 

 

I see very little coverage of the fact that today's peace talks were postponed. That's terrible news. I suspect Russia wants to bomb the cities more and try to build leverage. 

Thats what Nixon did with his savage Christmas bombing campaign. But it worked for him, not sure it will now. 

3 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

 

 

Looks like Putin losing the Oligarchs. Roman doesn't want to end up being tried for war crimes

Hmmm...believe it when I see it. But it shows they see the writing on the wall. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

Interesting tweet thread:

 

 

 

Neat thread.  Russian nationalists think they are invincible, that nothing actually bad will happen, and this is the start of a new golden age.

 

When someone takes a rosy view of a situation, that's alright.  When their view of a complex issue is "my side will get everything it wants and win forever"...yeah. 

 

Russia thought the exact same thing when it entered WWI.  

[sherpa]

43 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Thats what Nixon did with his savage Christmas bombing campaign. But it worked for him, not sure it will now. 

Hmmm...believe it when I see it. But it shows they see the writing on the wall. 

 

Hey Tibs.

I see you didn't respond to my challenge.

No surprise there.

 

Just for your edification, if you want to know why people with knowledge of these type of things are surprised at your suggestions regarding a no fly zone, you can be educated here:

 

The guy on the left is an F-14 RIO, (back seater), and accomplished author.

The guy on the right is from the same background as me, A7's to F-18's.

Both did the entire career thing.

They kind of know what they're talking about.

[Tiberius]

19 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Hey Tibs.

I see you didn't respond to my challenge.

No surprise there.

 

Just for your edification, if you want to know why people with knowledge of these type of things are surprised at your suggestions regarding a no fly zone, you can be educated here:

 

The guy on the left is an F-14 RIO, (back seater), and accomplished author.

The guy on the right is from the same background as me, A7's to F-18's.

Both did the entire career thing.

They kind of know what they're talking about.

Yes, you respond to my posts consistently. Me about yours, not so much. I am under no obligation to react to you 

[sherpa]

36 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Yes, you respond to my posts consistently. Me about yours, not so much. I am under no obligation to react to you 

So not willing to put up money to back up your claim?

An admission of no confidence?

Got it.

[Chef Jim]

46 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I don’t respond because I suck

We know. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

10 hours ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

 

This wasn't you? Based on this post I thought you would have an opinion on the situation?

 

It was strongly worded.

 

I will try to include others since you do not care to back up your opinions.

let me quote DC TOM 

 

you’re an idiot 

[SCBills]

We’re led to believe that these Russian soldiers are 18-19 year old conscripts that had no idea what they were sent to do…

 

Not ideal..

 

 

[Doc]

Waging war is a crime.

[PetermansRedemption]

24 minutes ago, SCBills said:

We’re led to believe that these Russian soldiers are 18-19 year old conscripts that had no idea what they were sent to do…

 

Not ideal..

 

 

Isn’t this bad for Ukraine though? They really want the soldiers from an army that outnumbers them ten to one fighting HARDER? 

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Isn’t this bad for Ukraine though? They really want the soldiers from an army that outnumbers them ten to one fighting HARDER? 

 

No, to not fight at all.

[sherpa]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

Waging war is a crime.

 

Largely true, but I think what started on April 19, 1775 was pretty OK.

[SCBills]

13 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Isn’t this bad for Ukraine though? They really want the soldiers from an army that outnumbers them ten to one fighting HARDER? 

Its bad for everyone.   I have no idea why they’d make this statement.  
 

A) It’s a war crime

 

B) It will be used by military leaders, for sure, to convince the hesitant soldiers that they better fight 

 

C) I’m sure, like the Azov Battalion/Nat Guard tweet.. it’s plastered all over Russian media for the citizens to see

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by SCBills

[Tiberius]

Peace protesters are such unsung heroes. With so many unemployed wouldn't be surprised if this leads somewhere 

[L Ron Burgundy]

I'm about a 6 hour drive from Ukraine now, getting most of my news from Polish sources.   This may be common knowledge but man Putin has got to be embarrassed.  Young soldiers who were told they were going on an exercise, running out of fuel, having to steal food because their MREs are too old.  Heard today some Russian soldiers may be damaging their own gear to not fight.

[Tiberius]

40 minutes ago, SCBills said:

We’re led to believe that these Russian soldiers are 18-19 year old conscripts that had no idea what they were sent to do…

 

Not ideal..

 

 

Doesn't make sense. Russian soldiers should be encouraged to surrendered and welcomed with open arms. 

2 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

I'm about a 6 hour drive from Ukraine now, getting most of my news from Polish sources.   This may be common knowledge but man Putin has got to be embarrassed.  Young soldiers who were told they were going on an exercise, running out of fuel, having to steal food because their MREs are too old.  Heard today some Russian soldiers may be damaging their own gear to not fight.

Hope that's right! 

[Big Blitz]

 

 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Largely true, but I think what started on April 19, 1775 was pretty OK.

So was crushing the slaveholders rebellion was pretty OK too. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

 

Hope that's right! 

Hard to tell.  Both sides are pumping out lots of BS right now.