Manning cast indirectly peek into Bills Offense.

[Mat68]

We all know the Bills offense has not been what we were hoping.  In the first half in between guest hosts rambling, Peyton talked about facing 2 high safties.  This is the look that both Miami and Pitts deployed the first to weeks.  The look the Jets did that slowed the offense a year ago in both meetings.  
 

A few you can go to.  Peyton throw it all over the yard Manning first says run them out of it.  Run well enough defenses will adjust.  Stay patient take all the other underneath stuff.  What I really enjoyed was the way Dungy coached Peyton.  He told Peyton that really the defensive coaching staff of the other team doesnt believe you are disciplined enough to stay patient.  They feel you will get impatient or bored and push the ball down field into coverage.  
 

Aaron freaking Rodgers forced the ball a little but the team and run game helped bring down the saftey and that opened up the deeper stuff.  Devantes deep pass held the saftey enough for the td to Tunyan have the space for the td.

 

Allen needs to have this mindset.  Daboll needs to develop the run game to get teams out of this look.  Now Farve was on and basically said ya I still chucked it.  Allen needs to be more Rodgers than Farve.  Daboll needs to see what the defense is doing and call the plays to move the ball more efficiently.  Miami was a step in the right direction, WFT will be more of the same.  

Edited September 21, 2021 by Mat68

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

Agree with you're post. It's really solid they said. What I'm saying as well.

[Jobot]

I wonder if Allen is further evolving his mechanics to get even better.

[BuffaloRebound]

It becomes borderline arrogance from Daboll/Allen if they’re not gonna take the underneath stuff or establish a run game when the passing game has sputtered the past 5-6 games.  

[BarleyNY]

4 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

We all know the Bills offense has not been what we were hoping.  In the first half in between guest hosts rambling, Peyton talked about facing 2 high safties.  This is the look that both Miami and Pitts deployed the first to weeks.  The look the Jets did that slowed the offense a year ago in both meetings.  
 

A few you can go.  Peyton throw it all over the yard Manning first says run them out of it.  Run well enough defenses will adjust.  Stay patient take all the other underneath stuff.  What I really enjoyed was the way Dungy coached Peyton.  He told Peyton that really the defensive coaching staff of the other team doesnt believe you are disciplined enough to stay patient.  They feel you will get impatient or bored and push the ball down field into coverage.  
 

Aaron freaking Rodgers forced the ball a little but the team and run game helped bring down the saftey and that opened up the deeper stuff.  Devantes deep pass held the saftey enough for the td to Tunyan have the space for the td.

 

Allen needs to have this mindset.  Daboll needs to develop the run game to get teams out of this look.  Now Farve was on and basically said ya I still chucked it.  Allen needs to be more Rodgers than Farve.  Daboll needs to see what the defense is doing and call the plays to move the ball more efficiently.  Miami was a step in the right direction, WFT will be more of the same.  

Thanks for the post.  I noticed that teams were taking away the intermediate routes that Allen feasted on last season, but I wasn’t sure how.  NFL GamePass doesn’t have All22 up so no help there.  Teams going back to more cover 2 makes sense - and I’ve seen this discussed in regards to how defenses are playing Rodgers.  It looks like teams are going to dare us to run the ball, go to short routes and throw more to the TEs.  I’m not sure we have the personnel for that, but we are going to find out. 

[Motorin']

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It becomes borderline arrogance from Daboll/Allen if they’re not gonna take the underneath stuff or establish a run game when the passing game has sputtered the past 5-6 games.  

 

It seems like they try to establish their game no matter what the D is doing. And only if it doesn't work do then then adjust to take what's being given.

[Blainorama5]

Adapt and overcome.  That's what the great QBs do.  I'd like to think that Daboll and Josh will get that into their heads here and when teams dare them to run, then run it down their throats!  That also has the benefit of opening up play action if the D adjusts.

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It becomes borderline arrogance from Daboll/Allen if they’re not gonna take the underneath stuff or establish a run game when the passing game has sputtered the past 5-6 games.  

5 or 6 games?

 

Against the Chiefs Allen threw for 287 yards and 2 TD's. His completion percentage was a little lower, so I'll give you that.

 

The Baltimore game was really bad weather.

 

Against the Colts he threw for 324 yard and 2 TD's, and had a completion percentage of 74%.

 

The passing game has not been sputtering for the past 5 or 6 games.

[Mat68]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It becomes borderline arrogance from Daboll/Allen if they’re not gonna take the underneath stuff or establish a run game when the passing game has sputtered the past 5-6 games.  

Miami was a positive step.  Probably the best secondary Buffalo will face.  Still 35 points 5 offensive Tds.  Sure if Allen was “On” they could have scored 50.  Overall, though Manning put in perspective the mindset he would have to get in to and even Dungy tweeking him a bit to stay on course.  Some defenses are what they are.  Every Seatle cover 3 defense Allen will devour.  The old tampa 2 will be what its intended to be.  Limit the big play and long methodical drives.  

[34-78-83]

Good point OP. I heard the Mannings discuss this last night as well and they are right about how to get teams out of it. I will add, however, that the Steelers certainly didn't play exclusively that way. They flooded the underneath (0-15 yd) zones with 7 players and dared the Bills to hold onto the ball longer and go over the top to beat them, which we couldn't due to A - Josh being a bit off and B- 25 mph gusts. With their pass rush getting home consistently, it was check mate for them.

[uninja]

17 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

What I really enjoyed was the way Dungy coached Peyton.  He told Peyton that really the defensive coaching staff of the other team doesnt believe you are disciplined enough to stay patient.  They feel you will get impatient or bored and push the ball down field into coverage.   

 

That line I think says everything. Allen wants to go for the kill every down/series. He needs to be patient and just take what's there.

[Punching Bag]

17 minutes ago, MJS said:

5 or 6 games?

 

Against the Chiefs Allen threw for 287 yards and 2 TD's. His completion percentage was a little lower, so I'll give you that.

 

The Baltimore game was really bad weather.

 

Against the Colts he threw for 324 yard and 2 TD's, and had a completion percentage of 74%.

 

The passing game has not been sputtering for the past 5 or 6 games.

 

Stop confusing him with facts!

[Mat68]

6 minutes ago, uninja said:

 

That line I think says everything. Allen wants to go for the kill every down/series. He needs to be patient and just take what's there.

Of the three Qbs talking both Mannings and Farve, Peyton was the only one with the patients to execute that way.  Maybe, he never had the arm so those windows were not as enticing.  I love Farve was still like we all know what I did in these situations.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

35 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

We all know the Bills offense has not been what we were hoping.  In the first half in between guest hosts rambling, Peyton talked about facing 2 high safties.  This is the look that both Miami and Pitts deployed the first to weeks.  The look the Jets did that slowed the offense a year ago in both meetings.  
 

A few you can go to.  Peyton throw it all over the yard Manning first says run them out of it.  Run well enough defenses will adjust.  Stay patient take all the other underneath stuff.  What I really enjoyed was the way Dungy coached Peyton.  He told Peyton that really the defensive coaching staff of the other team doesnt believe you are disciplined enough to stay patient.  They feel you will get impatient or bored and push the ball down field into coverage.  
 

Aaron freaking Rodgers forced the ball a little but the team and run game helped bring down the saftey and that opened up the deeper stuff.  Devantes deep pass held the saftey enough for the td to Tunyan have the space for the td.

 

Allen needs to have this mindset.  Daboll needs to develop the run game to get teams out of this look.  Now Farve was on and basically said ya I still chucked it.  Allen needs to be more Rodgers than Farve.  Daboll needs to see what the defense is doing and call the plays to move the ball more efficiently.  Miami was a step in the right direction, WFT will be more of the same.  

 

IMO this is exactly correct.

 

I  can not break down the Pitts. game.  Jim Kubiak of TBN did a good job.  I hope he has a better tool because the current Gamepass interface is unuseable not to mention the lack of all 22 (have I mentioned I'm salty about the lack of coach's film anywhere else?).  I do think Pitts. didn't run 2 high safeties all the time.  They recognized that we didn't have time to allow deep routes to develop so they flooded the short routes and trusted their pressure of 3 or 4 to hold up.

 

But yes, that's exactly it: "really the defensive coaching staff of the other team doesnt believe you are disciplined enough to stay patient.  They feel you will get impatient or bored and push the ball down field into coverage".

 

I've only gotten through half of the Miami game, but so far IMHO the Miami game was actually a bit of a watershed for Josh because, while he did make a couple of bad decisions and miss a couple of throws, all but one of the completions he made in the first half were short or swing passes.  Disciplined, boring, patient passes.

 

And some of them didn't gain much, but most of them worked really well.

 

Allen also threw the ball away 3 times in the first half and arguably 2 more passes were "semi-throwaways": passes to the sideline where either our WR gets it or no one does.

 

I'm honestly puzzled by people who see 2019 or 2018 Allen.  All I can figure is they're people who drink a lot and see a miss and start talking about Allen sucks now and don't really watch the game, because 2018 Allen NEVER threw the ball away, and 2019 Allen threw the ball away sometimes, but NEVER took those short passes

 

 

[billsherd]

33 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

Agree with you're post. It's really solid they said. What I'm saying as well.

WFT

[GreggTX]

Singletary is getting 6.4 yards per rushing attempt.  Josh's efficiency rating is 77.9. Obviously we need to run the ball more -- at least until Josh gets his mojo back. That's on Daboll. Also, Peyton is right about being patient and taking what the defense gives you. I don't care what they've done so far. Both Allen and the WFT defense are legit and they'll show it before long before this season ends.

[DJB]

Just take what the defense gives you that helps win the game

 

Easiest solution

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, Mat68 said:

Now Farve was on and basically said ya I still chucked it.

He did say he was coached by Daboll 

[letsgoteam]

42 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

IMO this is exactly correct.

 

I  can not break down the Pitts. game.  Jim Kubiak of TBN did a good job.  I hope he has a better tool because the current Gamepass interface is unuseable not to mention the lack of all 22 (have I mentioned I'm salty about the lack of coach's film anywhere else?).  I do think Pitts. didn't run 2 high safeties all the time.  They recognized that we didn't have time to allow deep routes to develop so they flooded the short routes and trusted their pressure of 3 or 4 to hold up.

 

But yes, that's exactly it: "really the defensive coaching staff of the other team doesnt believe you are disciplined enough to stay patient.  They feel you will get impatient or bored and push the ball down field into coverage".

 

I've only gotten through half of the Miami game, but so far IMHO the Miami game was actually a bit of a watershed for Josh because, while he did make a couple of bad decisions and miss a couple of throws, all but one of the completions he made in the first half were short or swing passes.  Disciplined, boring, patient passes.

 

And some of them didn't gain much, but most of them worked really well.

 

Allen also threw the ball away 3 times in the first half and arguably 2 more passes were "semi-throwaways": passes to the sideline where either our WR gets it or no one does.

 

I'm honestly puzzled by people who see 2019 or 2018 Allen.  All I can figure is they're people who drink a lot and see a miss and start talking about Allen sucks now and don't really watch the game, because 2018 Allen NEVER threw the ball away, and 2019 Allen threw the ball away sometimes, but NEVER took those short passes

 

 

Your point about the Miami game reminds me, I wonder what the narrative would have been if the Bills scored a TD on that drive where Moss fumbled after catching the swing pass, that he turned into what 8-10 yard play before he fumbled.

 

 

[billybrew1]

1 hour ago, Blainorama5 said:

Adapt and overcome.  That's what the great QBs do.  I'd like to think that Daboll and Josh will get that into their heads here and when teams dare them to run, then run it down their throats!  That also has the benefit of opening up play action if the D adjusts.

I think there are always short routes in Daboll's passing plays. It has got to be more Allen not taking them.

The cover two is not making Allen throw poorly, Allen is throwing poorly.

It's Allen, his confidence is low right now.

 

Having said all that, I think we need to practice the run game more than we have been. We should have more smooth looking run calls both from under center and from the gun. We also need to pass more from under center.

 

Hopefully, Washington's D doesn't bring their A game this week and Allen can take a step in the right direction. The G-men certainly moved the ball a lot vs. the WTF D. That means so should we, right?

[K-9]

I wish we had two versatile, good blocking and interchangeable TEs. You come out in 12 personnel on a few series and watch how quickly those two deep safeties creep up to stop the run. And when defenses go heavier to counter it, flex one or both out wide and feast in the mismatches with LBs and/or smaller DBs. You’d think that with Daboll’s familiarity with the Pats*** success with it might inform him. Then again, we don’t have the same kind of horses in the barn. 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It becomes borderline arrogance from Daboll/Allen if they’re not gonna take the underneath stuff or establish a run game when the passing game has sputtered the past 5-6 games.  

When you do the underneath stuff it gets first downs but you need a hammer of a running back to wear a defense down.  Jimmy Johnson once said when he was about to play the Eagles in Texas stadium I would rather play conservative then turning the ball over.  For Josh to do the underneath stuff and play conservative the defense has to earn his trust that if he goes 3 and out he does not have to panic knowing his defense will shut down the opposing offense and get the ball right back to him. The more touches josh has the more deadly he becomes.

[Rock'em Sock'em]

5 minutes ago, billybrew1 said:

The G-men certainly moved the ball a lot vs. the WTF D

Daniel Jones had about 100 yards rushing.  He and 17 were their offense last week.

[Wheels Not So Golden Now]

52 minutes ago, DJB said:

Just take what the defense gives you that helps win the game

 

Easiest solution

Well there is this alternative approach that was successful back in the day:  "We don't take what the defense gives us; we take whatever the hell we want." -Al Davis

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It becomes borderline arrogance from Daboll/Allen if they’re not gonna take the underneath stuff or establish a run game when the passing game has sputtered the past 5-6 games.  

 

It bothered me that a lot of  run checks in week 1 were mostly qb draws. If they want to play 2 high, run out of 11 personnel. Don't need the qb constantly running into contact, we have running backs for that.

42 minutes ago, Rock'em Sock'em said:

Daniel Jones had about 100 yards rushing.  He and 17 were their offense last week.

 

Some read option plays for them were big chunks. I think they ran a qb power as well. There were also man coverage scrambles. We've seen mostly zone to limit the scrambles, but read option and qb power can get u numbers on one side for chunk plays if they want to play off coverage zone.

47 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I wish we had two versatile, good blocking and interchangeable TEs. You come out in 12 personnel on a few series and watch how quickly those two deep safeties creep up to stop the run. And when defenses go heavier to counter it, flex one or both out wide and feast in the mismatches with LBs and/or smaller DBs. You’d think that with Daboll’s familiarity with the Pats*** success with it might inform him. Then again, we don’t have the same kind of horses in the barn. 

 

I'd use Spencer brown in some situations like that. He played tight end before and size wise he's a mismatch to any linebacker. It'll force their hand and u can attack vertically with play action. I'd even motion Knox across to Crack block on some runs and bootlegs to get the backside more help.

[Mickey]

There is a reason defenses will give you those two yard routes all day, because you won't win a football game that way.  We do not have the horses upfront or in the backfield to have some sort of 1972 style running attack.  Defenses don't need to adjust to a three and out running game.  A little better accuracy on Josh's part, a few less dropped passes and a few less holding calls is all we need.  We are only two games in and one of those was a 35-0 rout. Not exactly time to hit the eject button on the offense that carried us to 13-3 last year.

[K-9]

16 minutes ago, dneveu said:

I'd use Spencer brown in some situations like that. He played tight end before and size wise he's a mismatch to any linebacker. It'll force their hand and u can attack vertically with play action. I'd even motion Knox across to Crack block on some runs and bootlegs to get the backside more help.

Knox threw a nice block on Motor’s TD run. Came across the formation and took his man out. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, Mickey said:

There is a reason defenses will give you those two yard routes all day, because you won't win a football game that way.  We do not have the horses upfront or in the backfield to have some sort of 1972 style running attack.  Defenses don't need to adjust to a three and out running game.  A little better accuracy on Josh's part, a few less dropped passes and a few less holding calls is all we need.  We are only two games in and one of those was a 35-0 rout. Not exactly time to hit the eject button on the offense that carried us to 13-3 last year.

 

No - but based on a game flow, if there is a light box you are supposed to check and run the ball.  When you play empty for 30 snaps, the runs come from the QB which i think is a bit dangerous.  I don't think you need to go heavy here, just do a quick count of the box and if you have numbers run it.  

Just now, K-9 said:

Knox threw a nice block on Motor’s TD run. Came across the formation and took his man out. 

 

Sanders had one down the field too.  Those are usually the difference between 10-15 and TD runs.  

[K-9]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

Sanders had one down the field too.  Those are usually the difference between 10-15 and TD runs.  

Yep. If I have a receiver that can’t block, he’s not gonna play very often, if at all. Simple as that. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

21 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Yep. If I have a receiver that can’t block, he’s not gonna play very often, if at all. Simple as that. 

 

Yeah... I saw Kelce catch a pass from a bailing mahomes right near the LOS, and get a 60 yard TD on it.  I'm sure he broke a tackle or two, but that doesn't happen without a ton of downfield blocks.