transplantbillsfan Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) I don't know how much this topic has been covered over the years and I'm sure this won't be the last of it, but in The Athletic's weekly mailbag Matthew Fairburn was asked the following: If you could do a player swap for any player in the NFL, who would it be and why? Rules are as follows: both players have to be starters, and the players being traded have to occupy the same position. So no WR for CB. How specific are we getting? I think we should differentiate 1 tech and 3 tech. Hopefully, that gives you a good framework. – Matt W. And here was Fairrburn's response: I don’t mean to disrespect Josh Allen, but swapping him for Patrick Mahomes seems to be the move. I would say that about every team in the NFL right now. Quarterback is the most important position in football, and Mahomes is the clear best quarterback in the league. No player would have a bigger impact on a team. I wouldn't. I guess this is just another indicator I'm too much of a homer...? The thing is that I realize that at no point in the last 3 years can you necessarily say that Josh was better. But to me Josh is still ascending and Mahomes is pretty much what he is already... which is fantastic. I also think Mahomes has benefitted from a better roster (especially the weapons around him) and better offensive coaching and development (love Daboll but Reid >>>> Daboll). I also think Allen is more physically to last in the NFL. And frankly I just think Allen's mentality/attitude is better than Mahomes. I readily acknowledge that Mahomes has been better than Allen. However, I don’t believe the Bills would be a better team over the next decade plus if we simply swapped QBs and kept everything else in place. What say you? Edited May 23, 2021 by transplantbillsfan 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) Nope, Josh is perfect for the Bills. Mahomes and Andy fit perfectly together and I don't know if he would have the same success here without his supporting cast. Edited May 23, 2021 by TBBills 13 4 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyBills Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I truly believe Allen will eclipse Mahomes skill wise. He was just so dang raw coming out, I still see him taking a jump , even after being an All Pro and 2nd in MVP voting. And Josh fits this team like a glove. I'm not making that trade. Allen has the highest ceiling of any QB. 6 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: I don't know how much this topic has been covered over the years and I'm sure this won't be the last of it, but in The Athletic's weekly mailbag Matthew Fairburn was asked the following: If you could do a player swap for any player in the NFL, who would it be and why? Rules are as follows: both players have to be starters, and the players being traded have to occupy the same position. So no WR for CB. How specific are we getting? I think we should differentiate 1 tech and 3 tech. Hopefully, that gives you a good framework. – Matt W. And here was Fairrburn's response: I don’t mean to disrespect Josh Allen, but swapping him for Patrick Mahomes seems to be the move. I would say that about every team in the NFL right now. Quarterback is the most important position in football, and Mahomes is the clear best quarterback in the league. No player would have a bigger impact on a team. I wouldn't. I guess this is just another indicator I'm too much of a homer...? The thing is that I realize that at no point in the last 3 years can you necessarily say that Josh was better. But to me Josh is still ascending and Mahomes is pretty much what he is already... which is fantastic. I also think Mahomes has benefitted from a better roster (especially the weapons around him) and better offensive coaching and development (love Daboll but Reid >>>> Daboll). I also think Allen is more physically to last in the NFL. And frankly I just think Allen's mentality/attitude is better than Mahomes. I readily acknowledge that Mahomes has been better than Allen. However, I don’t believe the Bills would be a better team over the next decade plus if we simply swapped QBs and kept everything else in place. What say you? The correct answer is yes. But I would say that you could play this game with would you trade X QB for Allen and that would be a yes for 30 teams in the NFL. Which counts for something. Just now, JerseyBills said: I truly believe Allen will eclipse Mahomes skill wise. He was just so dang raw coming out, I still see him taking a jump , even after being an All Pro and 2nd in MVP voting. And Josh fits this team like a glove. I'm not making that trade. Allen has the highest ceiling of any QB. Can you really have a higher ceiling than league MVP and Super Bowl winner? Edited May 23, 2021 by FireChans 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 23, 2021 Author Share Posted May 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: Can you really have a higher ceiling than league MVP and Super Bowl winner? Yes you can be a multiple time league MVP and, more importantly, multiple time Super Bowl winner. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 two different breeds of QB. JA fits buffalo perfectly. I'll pass on mahomes. never really understood what they get out of these hypotheticals other then, to just pass time? 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyBills Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, FireChans said: The correct answer is yes. But I would say that you could play this game with would you trade X QB for Allen and that would be a yes for 30 teams in the NFL. Which counts for something. Can you really have a higher ceiling than league MVP and Super Bowl winner? Yes. I truly believe Josh hasn't reached his ceiling, so I can see him being more of an asset than Patty in the next couple years. Mahomes is better right now but I think in a year or 2, Allen will be the top guy. Can't teach 6'5 240 pounds with a rocket as an arm n phenomenal on his legs 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, FireChans said: Can you really have a higher ceiling than league MVP and Super Bowl winner? Nope. No QB has ever won more than 1 Super Bowl or MVP. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Yes you can be a multiple time league MVP and, more importantly, multiple time Super Bowl winner. None of which Allen has done. Mahomes is off to arguably the best start in NFL QB history. Allen is not. I get the intangibles thing, but Mahomes certainly has his fair share of intangibles and making jaw dropping plays out of nothing to keep his team cruising. Allen needs to win a SB and an MVP before this is a real debate. 1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said: Nope. No QB has ever won more than 1 Super Bowl or MVP. No QB has won 2 MVPs without winning one. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I would actually love to see what Josh could do on the Chefs. Then people would be talking about every team trading their QB for him. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern_Bills Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I simply think Allen fits the culture of the team and the city. I could see plenty of arguments why this trade would make sense, I just wouldn't do it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I think both are in the right spot and switching them might result in both not performing as well. Mahomes was more ready for the pro game when he arrived in the pro's and had a team that was already built and prepared for him. And being so ready he quickly reached his ceiling. Allen was a raw product out of college and grew into the role while at the same time the team grew and developed around him. He's more a big piece of the puzzle that makes the Bills go than a guy that got plugged into an already there situation. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 Mahomes is the better QB 17 has my heart. I’ll take 17 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: we get it. go ahead, bow to mahomes. he's the greatest, he won mvp and a sb, holy moly batman. meanwhile we will think differently about our QB and his future with the bills. debate, pfft. Aw man some of you get so emotional. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 If Mahomes were a country mile better than Allen, and Allen had reached his ceiling, then sure. But, he isn't, and he hasn't. And, swapping the two, at this point in The Process would be utterly contrary, and damaging to the culture McD, and Beane have created. They're all in on Allen, Allen is all in on the team, and the team is all in on him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 15 minutes ago, FireChans said: Mahomes is off to arguably the best start in NFL QB history. Allen is not. I certainly won't take anything away from Mahomes. He's awesome. But let's be honest, here. He was drafted by a much better organization, coaching staff and team - which immediately surrounded him with supreme talent. Josh Allen? Not so much. It's no coincidence that Josh Allen continues to improve as the talent around him improves. That's not to say that Allen hasn't made incredible personal improvements; he has. Throwing passes to Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones isn't setting any QB up to be successful. Replace that with Diggs and Beasley and *poof* now Josh Allen gets the second most MVP votes. Has Mahomes been more successful? Yes. Much more. But it's not just because Mahomes is the better QB. If he is, it ain't by much. I'll stick with Josh. 12 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, FireChans said: None of which Allen has done. Mahomes is off to arguably the best start in NFL QB history. Allen is not. I get the intangibles thing, but Mahomes certainly has his fair share of intangibles and making jaw dropping plays out of nothing to keep his team cruising. Allen needs to win a SB and an MVP before this is a real debate. No QB has won 2 MVPs without winning one. The question isn’t “who has achieved more” or “who is the better qb”. So yes, there is a debate. Who would YOU rather have..... I’d rather keep my favorite player as opposed to a player I’ve already learned to dislike. 28 minutes ago, FireChans said: The correct answer is yes. But I would say that you could play this game with would you trade X QB for Allen and that would be a yes for 30 teams in the NFL. Which counts for something. Can you really have a higher ceiling than league MVP and Super Bowl winner? There is no correct answer. It’s an opinion. It’s not “who would give you their better chance to win a super bowl” or “who is the better qb”. It’s who would you rather have. You can’t be right or wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBonhamRocks Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I say this while knocking on wood: I’d keep Allen because, all other things considered, it seems to me he’s been healthier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 As far as benefiting the team, why trade a top 5 QB for another top 5 QB even if he is better? Why not trade, say, Dawson Knox for Travis Kelce, or Mario Addison for Khalil Mack or TJ Watt? You have a chance to majorly upgrade the team. Allen is one of the strengths of the team, so take a weakness and make it a strength by focusing on another position. 5 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, FireChans said: Aw man some of you get so emotional. I would counter that with: Some people don't place a high enough value on culture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 That's a weird answer to the question he was asked. I'd rather trade Jacob Hollister for Travis Kelce than Allen for Mahomes. Or Aaron Donald for Vernon Butler. He was given a question with limitless potential and chose the most boring answer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, NewEra said: The question isn’t “who has achieved more” or “who is the better qb”. So yes, there is a debate. Who would YOU rather have..... I’d rather keep my favorite player as opposed to a player I’ve already learned to dislike. There is no correct answer. It’s an opinion. It’s not “who would give you their better chance to win a super bowl” or “who is the better qb”. It’s who would you rather have. You can’t be right or wrong. I mean if the question isn’t viewed through the lens of “who is the better QB” then sure, Ryan Fitzpatrick has an argument in this debate lol. 5 minutes ago, MJS said: As far as benefiting the team, why trade a top 5 QB for another top 5 QB even if he is better? Why not trade, say, Dawson Knox for Travis Kelce, or Mario Addison for Khalil Mack or TJ Watt? You have a chance to majorly upgrade the team. Allen is one of the strengths of the team, so take a weakness and make it a strength by focusing on another position. This is actually the best answer. The difference between Josh, Tre and Diggs and the respective best players at those positions is approaching zero. Would be terrible positions to “upgrade”. 12 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: If Mahomes were a country mile better than Allen, and Allen had reached his ceiling, then sure. But, he isn't, and he hasn't. And, swapping the two, at this point in The Process would be utterly contrary, and damaging to the culture McD, and Beane have created. They're all in on Allen, Allen is all in on the team, and the team is all in on him. Has Patrick Mahomes reached his ceiling? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 23, 2021 Author Share Posted May 23, 2021 33 minutes ago, FireChans said: None of which Allen has done. Mahomes is off to arguably the best start in NFL QB history. Allen is not. I get the intangibles thing, but Mahomes certainly has his fair share of intangibles and making jaw dropping plays out of nothing to keep his team cruising. Allen needs to win a SB and an MVP before this is a real debate. Do you believe Mahomes would have found similar success if he were drafted by Buffalo in 2017 at #10 with Buffalo's coaching staff, talent, and the likelihood that he would have had to start at some point during his first season considering McDermott decided to start Nathan Peterman at one point? Mahomes has more accomplishments and accolades at this point. I view that as a tangential argument to the ceilings of either player. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 Mahomes has had a better supporting cast, from players to coaches, than Josh. It makes a difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Do you believe Mahomes would have found similar success if he were drafted by Buffalo in 2017 at #10 with Buffalo's coaching staff, talent, and the likelihood that he would have had to start at some point during his first season considering McDermott decided to start Nathan Peterman at one point? Mahomes has more accomplishments and accolades at this point. I view that as a tangential argument to the ceilings of either player. I think Mahomes would have had more success than Allen as a rookie. Tyrod and Natey took the 17 Bills to the playoffs. The next year, with a similar roster, they went 6-10. Do I think Mahomes could have beaten that? Yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, FireChans said: Tyrod and Natey took the 17 Bills to the playoffs. The next year, with a similar roster, they went 6-10. Do I think Mahomes could have beaten that? Yes. They most certainly did not. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, FireChans said: I think Mahomes would have had more success than Allen as a rookie. Tyrod and Natey took the 17 Bills to the playoffs. The next year, with a similar roster, they went 6-10. Do I think Mahomes could have beaten that? Yes. Yeah, I could see 7-9... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted May 23, 2021 Author Share Posted May 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, FireChans said: I think Mahomes would have had more success than Allen as a rookie. Tyrod and Natey took the 17 Bills to the playoffs. The next year, with a similar roster, they went 6-10. Do I think Mahomes could have beaten that? Yes. I think you seriously underestimate the benefit of a redshirt year for Mahomes behind Alex Smith under the tutelage of Andy Reid and the talent already surrounding him in his first year with Hill and Kelce already rolling and a pretty stellar offensive line compared with what Buffalo had. Josh Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, Robert Foster and Charles Clay and an offensive line full of general junk other than a rookie Dion Dawkins. 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 19 minutes ago, FireChans said: Has Patrick Mahomes reached his ceiling? I suspect that Mahomes is closer to his ceiling than Allen is to his. Statistically, Mahomes has been remarkably consistent over his four year career. Allen's trajectory has obviously been quite a bit steeper, and it would be surprising if he was done improving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 42 minutes ago, NewEra said: Mahomes is the better QB 17 has my heart. I’ll take 17 I really don’t believe that is a valid conclusion at this point. Josh still hasn’t reached his ceiling; has Mahomes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 How about another poll, this time asking "would you trade Josh's players and coaches for Mahomes'?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 1 hour ago, FireChans said: No QB has won 2 MVPs without winning one. That wasn’t the point and I was also being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockinon Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 No way. No chance would I make that trade. Coaches either. I still want to see how this plays out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 35 minutes ago, FireChans said: Aw man some of you get so emotional. seems you have a hard time knowing the difference from emotional and just pointing out you bowing on your knees for mahomes and those who, like myself would rather have JA as our QB. so far, you have shown in this thread you would choose mahomes over JA or at least it looks that way. emotional. 🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLEN1QB Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 Mahomes is a flash in the pan will not even be in the league in 3 years mark my words 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwai San Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said: Yes you can be a multiple time league MVP and, more importantly, multiple time Super Bowl winner. Like TB12? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, Gugny said: They most certainly did not. Well maybe I can get the money back that I spent to sweat in Jacksonville for four hours. 16 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: I think you seriously underestimate the benefit of a redshirt year for Mahomes behind Alex Smith under the tutelage of Andy Reid and the talent already surrounding him in his first year with Hill and Kelce already rolling and a pretty stellar offensive line compared with what Buffalo had. Josh Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, Robert Foster and Charles Clay and an offensive line full of general junk other than a rookie Dion Dawkins. I mean, Tyrod and NP took KB, Zay Day, Clay and Holmes to the postseason the year before. No one is arguing that Allen has as good as a situation as Mahomes did. Talk about tangential. 18 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: I suspect that Mahomes is closer to his ceiling than Allen is to his. Statistically, Mahomes has been remarkably consistent over his four year career. Allen's trajectory has obviously been quite a bit steeper, and it would be surprising if he was done improving. Mahomes gets a knock on his ceiling because he has been great out of the box and has been consistently great. Hard for folks to crow about your “ceiling” when you’ve already done things that 99% of QB’s won’t come close to achieving. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I’m going to answer this on the basis of Mahomes’ supposed response to the question of whether the “throw off” between him and Allen would ever take place, that it’s a lose-lose for him because “if I win I was expected to win, and if I lose then I’ve lost”. If that is in fact his mindset, give me the dude in whom the idea that he might lose wouldn’t even cross his mind, even if he might… Allen is so much more than just his talent to the Bills, he has become their heart and soul. They’ve forged their identity on his infectious enthusiasm and his never-say-die competitiveness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwai San Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, ALLEN1QB said: Mahomes is a flash in the pan will not even be in the league in 3 years mark my words WOW!!! Anywhere we can place a bet on that??? I am pretty sure a bunch of people would like to get in on that.......I get the hate but DANG! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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