Can Patriots challenge with run first offense this year?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

26 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

Are you going to be okay ?   When they win a playoff game without Tom Brady we can entertain your theories.    Probably won’t happen though.   Know what I mean ? 

 

Based on what? Your opinion? You have zero credibility. Yes, I will be okay. I'm a Bills fan and I hope every player the Pats ever draft busts. But in life and not just football, I like to base my opinions on historical outcomes & common sense. 

 

Just because some late round project QBs the Pats took a flyer on in the past never became all-stars doesn't mean I'm going to automatically assume Mac Jones is going to be a bust. Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't, but your opinion is nothing more than a ****ing guess so stop acting like u know wtf's going to happen in the future like your smarter than their front office. 🤮

 

I'm done arguing w/ u and your trollish tactics. It's one thing to disagree w/ someone, but it's another to act like a know-it-all, pompous douche. I'm making a mental note to ignore future posts from u. ✌️

Edited May 12, 2021 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[PonyBoy]

On 5/7/2021 at 9:25 PM, joey greco said:

You can make the playoffs but can't win the Super Bowl with a run first or smashmouth offense.  It's a relic of a dead era, the rules advantage passing offenses, and if that cheating ***** wants to go 9 and 7 for the rest of eternity he's on the right track, ***** him, ***** his cheating ass, ***** the pats, the end, god bless.

Tell us how you really feel 😃

[dave mcbride]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And AJ Brown. I still think of the guys in that draft he is the best receiver and he sure as hell was tailor made for that Patriots scheme. Harry never even seemed like a scheme fit. 

 

The last half a decade of Patriots drafting has been atrocious.

The thing about Harry is that in terms of measurables, he was regarded as being the best catch-radius guy by far and the sort of player that wins jump balls. But the league is moving away from jump ball guys. The Bills have little interest in them and instead focus on guys who can get separation. The last jump ball investment the Bills made was in Kelvin Benjamin, and look at how that turned out. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

The thing about Harry is that in terms of measurables, he was regarded as being the best catch-radius guy by far and the sort of player that wins jump balls. But the league is moving away from jump ball guys. The Bills have little interest in them and instead focus on guys who can get separation. The last jump ball investment the Bills made was in Kelvin Benjamin, and look at how that turned out. 

 

But also when have the Pats been a "jump ball" team at receiver? Like it didn't even make sense in terms of the guys they normally value. They like route runners not jump ball guys. Weird pick. I think there are some other schemes where there is still a place as in the league as a #2 for a guy like Harry but he isn't a #1 so shouldn't have been drafted in the 1st and certainly not by New England for that scheme. 

[Buffalo03]

Brady is gone. The Patriots might make the playoffs but their super bowl glory days are over

[Ghost_002!]

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But also when have the Pats been a "jump ball" team at receiver? Like it didn't even make sense in terms of the guys they normally value. They like route runners not jump ball guys. Weird pick. I think there are some other schemes where there is still a place as in the league as a #2 for a guy like Harry but he isn't a #1 so shouldn't have been drafted in the 1st and certainly not by New England for that scheme. 

 

 

You are dead on correct! In fact during the Harry draft. BB was told by his scouts that the wide outs already named in a pervious post were the ones to take not Harry, but BB ignored his scouts and took Harry because he knew Harry's college coach or is good friends with him.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Ghost_002!

[HappyDays]

38 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The thing about Harry is that in terms of measurables, he was regarded as being the best catch-radius guy by far and the sort of player that wins jump balls. But the league is moving away from jump ball guys. The Bills have little interest in them and instead focus on guys who can get separation. The last jump ball investment the Bills made was in Kelvin Benjamin, and look at how that turned out. 

 

I don't remember where I heard this, but I once read someone say "if a guy is known as a contested catch specialist in college, it begs the question why does he have so many contested catches against college DBs?" An NFL caliber receiver should be able to separate against college DBs. Contested catch ability is a plus in the NFL but it can't be your primary skill.

Edited May 12, 2021 by HappyDays

[dave mcbride]

43 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But also when have the Pats been a "jump ball" team at receiver? Like it didn't even make sense in terms of the guys they normally value. They like route runners not jump ball guys. Weird pick. I think there are some other schemes where there is still a place as in the league as a #2 for a guy like Harry but he isn't a #1 so shouldn't have been drafted in the 1st and certainly not by New England for that scheme. 

Well, Gronk was, and he was one of the best ever at it. But I get your point. Maybe BB and Ernie Adams thought they were exploiting a market inefficiency or something like that. Or maybe they were still scarred by David Tyree and those Jermaine Kearse catches in the Seattle Super Bowl. And maybe they remember Lee Evans failing to make the contested catch vs. Leigh Bodden in the 2011 AFC championship game. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Well, Gronk was, and he was one of the best ever at it. But I get your point. Maybe BB and Ernie Adams thought they were exploiting a market inefficiency or something like that. Or maybe they were still scarred by David Tyree and those Jermaine Kearse catches in the Seattle Super Bowl. And maybe they remember Lee Evans failing to make the contested catch vs. Leigh Bodden in the 2011 AFC championship game. 

 

It wasn't just Kearse it was also that guy who was a one game wonder..... I wanna say he was name Chris something? Yea Gronk did have that contested catch ability - although he could separate for a man of his size when he needed to. But it wasn't classically what they had valued in receivers. Never made sense to me. 

[Mat68]

No.  They over paid for everyone.  I expect them to be 9-8 at best.  Agilor and Bourne are good 3rd Wrs.  

[dave mcbride]

33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It wasn't just Kearse it was also that guy who was a one game wonder..... I wanna say he was name Chris something? Yea Gronk did have that contested catch ability - although he could separate for a man of his size when he needed to. But it wasn't classically what they had valued in receivers. Never made sense to me. 

Chris Matthews. 16 catches for 176 yards in his two-year career and 4 catches for 109 yards in that Super Bowl.

38 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It wasn't just Kearse it was also that guy who was a one game wonder..... I wanna say he was name Chris something? Yea Gronk did have that contested catch ability - although he could separate for a man of his size when he needed to. But it wasn't classically what they had valued in receivers. Never made sense to me. 

Here was the logic, at least. It didn't work out. https://www.clnsmedia.com/film-review-patriots-draft-proven-commodity-wide-receiver-nkeal-harry/

[Teddy KGB]

16 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

Based on what? Your opinion? You have zero credibility. Yes, I will be okay. I'm a Bills fan and I hope every player the Pats ever draft busts. But in life and not just football, I like to base my opinions on historical outcomes & common sense. 

 

Just because some late round project QBs the Pats took a flyer on in the past never became all-stars doesn't mean I'm going to automatically assume Mac Jones is going to be a bust. Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't, but your opinion is nothing more than a ****ing guess so stop acting like u know wtf's going to happen in the future like your smarter than their front office. 🤮

 

I'm done arguing w/ u and your trollish tactics. It's one thing to disagree w/ someone, but it's another to act like a know-it-all, pompous douche. I'm making a mental note to ignore future posts from u. ✌️

irony 😂😂

 

lmao @ you celebrating stuff from a decade ago, they stink now and BB can’t draft.  
 

its 2021.     No one cares about a 2001-2004 draft run 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Teddy KGB

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

irony 😂😂

 

lmao @ you celebrating stuff from a decade ago, they stink now and BB can’t draft.  
 

its 2021.     No one cares about a 2001-2004 draft run 

They had fantastic drafts from around 2009-2015 too, as @GunnerBill has said repeatedly. Life isn’t binaries or either/or.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

They had fantastic drafts from around 2009-2015 too, as @GunnerBill has said repeatedly. Life isn’t binaries or either/or.

 

Yep. That drafting run is why they had their second run of titles. Of course Brady was always a major part but they had gone almost a decade without a title. It was drafting the likes of Hightower and McCourty and Gronk and Edelman that gave Brady enough pieces to get them back into the winners enclosure. They drafted really well for half a decade. The last half decade however has been atrociously bad. That is why suddenly Brady looked at the roster and thought "the defense is ageing, Gronk has gone, Edelman is nearly done and you are asking me to throw to Mohammed Sanu? I'm out of here."

[Ghost_002!]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. That drafting run is why they had their second run of titles. Of course Brady was always a major part but they had gone almost a decade without a title. It was drafting the likes of Hightower and McCourty and Gronk and Edelman that gave Brady enough pieces to get them back into the winners enclosure. They drafted really well for half a decade. The last half decade however has been atrociously bad. That is why suddenly Brady looked at the roster and thought "the defense is ageing, Gronk has gone, Edelman is nearly done and you are asking me to throw to Mohammed Sanu? I'm out of here."

 

Ha ha...

 

Brady actually asked for Sanu believe or not.....I still can't believe they gave up a 2nd for him.....oh my stomach 🤮

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

Ha ha...

 

Brady actually asked for Sanu believe or not.....I still can't believe they gave up a 2nd for him.....oh my stomach 🤮

Rutgers. All you need to know.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

12 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

irony 😂😂

 

lmao @ you celebrating stuff from a decade ago, they stink now and BB can’t draft.  
 

its 2021.     No one cares about a 2001-2004 draft run 

Are you still going? I was responding to @dave mcbride comment about that specific time frame. Obviously they had other good drafts. I would list the year and players, but u don't seem to learn. You win the award for the most annoying poster now leave me alone 

[Teddy KGB]

1 hour ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Are you still going? I was responding to @dave mcbride comment about that specific time frame. Obviously they had other good drafts. I would list the year and players, but u don't seem to learn. You win the award for the most annoying poster now leave me alone 

more chronic less knuckles please, you don’t make any rules here.    

 

Belichek without Brady lmao 😂😂😂

Edited May 14, 2021 by Teddy KGB

[Rocky Landing]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:52 AM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/11/2021 at 1:38 PM, Teddy KGB said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/11/2021 at 7:49 PM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/12/2021 at 7:18 AM, Teddy KGB said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/12/2021 at 10:43 AM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/12/2021 at 11:52 AM, Teddy KGB said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/12/2021 at 11:55 AM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/13/2021 at 3:32 AM, Teddy KGB said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/13/2021 at 3:46 PM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

On 5/13/2021 at 5:12 PM, Teddy KGB said:

I know you are, but what am I...?

 

Really interesting conversation you guys are having...

[WideNine]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:13 PM, HappyDays said:

 

I don't remember where I heard this, but I once read someone say "if a guy is known as a contested catch specialist in college, it begs the question why does he have so many contested catches against college DBs?" An NFL caliber receiver should be able to separate against college DBs. Contested catch ability is a plus in the NFL but it can't be your primary skill.

 

 

Good point, as most colleges run some kind of read-option and/or spread offense most receivers are in a complimentary role where excelling at fighting for balls would be a red-flag that the receiver may have pedestrian speed, change-of-direction, and separation ability.

 

I guess if a receiver came out of a small program where he was their only threat and drew the lion's share of defensive attention, then you may take a longer look at more tape, but for most major colleges with talented depth not-so-much.

 

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

3 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really interesting conversation you guys are having...

 

Basically.

[Eastport bills]

If Cam is not back to the form he showed at Carolina early on, they will be better but not at our level. They went heavy on offense with off season acquisitions but defensive shortcomings will hold them back.

[Ramza86]

They can certainly make the playoffs. 7 spots. This seems like an easy in for them. Im sure thats why they went hard in FA this year. 7 spots.

[DCofNC]

On 5/8/2021 at 2:25 AM, Dr.Sack said:

I don’t think the Pats are that good. Still shaky at WR, no proven QB makes them one dimensional. The Bills can also play smash mouth, and open it up and play spread. Our defense will be improved & our size gains should be more than enough to stop them. 

Really? When please site an example of the Bills playing smash mouth football, that doesn’t involve Allen just taking off for a big run. 
 

 

[Dr.Sack]

On 5/18/2021 at 5:08 AM, DCofNC said:

Really? When please site an example of the Bills playing smash mouth football, that doesn’t involve Allen just taking off for a big run. 
 

 

Zach Moss can grind the clock in Q4. Go look it up. He iced the clock in a few games.

[Rocky Landing]

26 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

Zach Moss can grind the clock in Q4. Go look it up. He iced the clock in a few games.

Running the clock down in the fourth quarter isn't exactly the definition of "smash mouth football."

[Buffalo ill]

The Bills seem like a soft finesse team.  Fortunately one that can score a lot.

[Dr.Sack]

16 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

Running the clock down in the fourth quarter isn't exactly the definition of "smash mouth football."

You prefer the QB kneeling?

[Rocky Landing]

19 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

You prefer the QB kneeling?

You mean the victory formation? I’ll say yes, but that doesn’t really apply to the conversation. My point stands. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 5/9/2021 at 4:14 PM, Billy Claude said:

It's harder, but you can still win with a strong running game, a very strong defense and competent quarterbacking.  The 49ers went to the Super Bowl with that just two years ago.

 

 

 

True and yes, it IS hard to maintain that strategy. A great passing offense requires less players to maintain good production, you just need a handful of core players like elite QB, 2 great receivers, (TE or WR) LT, and Center. Obivously there are exceptions, but generally u can be a perennial playoff team if u are strong @ these positions. With your Brady and Manning's you just need a line that can block for 3 seconds.

 

For a power running offense and elite defense it requires so many different working parts to stay elite. Generally, elite defensive Superbowl caliber teams have a 2-4 year window to compete. 

 

Seattle's legion of boom for example. They had their 3 year run, went to a couple Superbowls, and fortunately got one title out of it (2 if their idiot coach ran Lynch instead of throwing it at the 3 yard line.) After that they lost players to free agency and aging. They've gone a different route and got themselves a true elite #1 and built their offense into a dominant passing one.

 

It's easier to build a great defense than it is to find an elite QB (see the Bills all throughout the drought) but I feel like an elite defense comes around once or twice a decade so both are equally rare. Teams w/ elite offenses have a 10-15 year window to win titles so it makes much more sense to find your franchise QB. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[just1hugheser]

On 5/8/2021 at 5:11 AM, just1hugheser said:

There is really only one formula that has ever worked to win a super bowl when a team doesn't have a premier QB; 

 

And that was to have a game manager who didn't turn the ball over-could distribute the ball to playmakers -has that or at least some of that 'clutchiness'/'poise' to complete a couple 3rd and longish when necessary(5-15yards) in the second half/when teams load the box. 

 

And to protect said QB the team had to have a dominant OLine which in turn led to a generally clean pocket and a solid if not punishing running game.(The Pats current OLine looks like who'd you'd gather up if you needed to create a human battering ram). 

 

And said team of course also had to have a dominant defense/special teams, already have a solid core with Gilmore, Guy, Winovich, Hightower, Jackson, Jones,McCourty, Duggar Then they went and added Van Noy, Judon, Mills, Godchaux, plus they have or added a couple guys who are solid/improving or are just good depth. 

 

They will have a top 5-10 defense especially with Billy being all pissed off.  (Oh and nabbed one of the best DT's in Barmore and got a good one in Perkins too, and I liked McGrone coming out this year too, dont much about Bledsoe)

 

And said team also generally had a very good coaching staff from top to bottom, which of course the Pats have had since Billy first arrived as he has always known the importance of getting the best of the best at every coaching position(most underrated imo was Dante Scarnecchia(thankfully retired, unfort they did bring back Patricia who will always be a better coordinator than head coach)).

 

They have pretty much all the elements and really their offense is setup very nicely for any QB but in particular Cam and anybody coming out of college.   For Cam they can use designed runs and rpo's and of course play action and with their personnel alone they can allow their QBs to have better options throwing in the middle of the field.(The last 2 being positive for any QB obviously but also more so for rookies or game managers). 

With Mac Jones they lose the running ability but they gain the ability to attack the entire field through the air and in time I believe a better understanding of the defense and how to use the offense to manipulate each defense.

 

In my opinion its gonna be a hotly contested AFC east especially if Tua starts to play in any way how many people thought he could coming out the Fins have a solid team too.  And I think the Jets finally have a coaching staff now they'll have to find out if they have their QB.

 

 

 

People underestimating Belichek(they were 7-9 with a terrible roster, and they ran all over us needing a last second fumble from Cam to barely hold onto the win, and JA in that game was 11/18 for 154 and an int so Belichek still knows hows to gameplan when it matters) will be surprised and people underestimating mac jones will be surprised.  and dont tell me about the game in dec. when the game didnt matter to the pats.

[machine gun kelly]

6 hours ago, just1hugheser said:

 

People underestimating Belichek(they were 7-9 with a terrible roster, and they ran all over us needing a last second fumble from Cam to barely hold onto the win, and JA in that game was 11/18 for 154 and an int so Belichek still knows hows to gameplan when it matters) will be surprised and people underestimating mac jones will be surprised.  and dont tell me about the game in dec. when the game didnt matter to the pats.

Thats partially true.  In the first game the winds were avg. 45 mph., so it became a running game for both teams.   We ran for over 200 yards, but BB’s problem was he dropped 8 back which was surprising he was that concerned with our passing game in those conditions.  If he would’ve pressed on us, we may have lost that game.

 

 

He was so concerned with shutting down our passing game, he missed it.  I was surprised as he typically is much better with strategy.  The Pats need a QB to compete.  We’ll see if if Jones is the answer.

[just1hugheser]

On 5/25/2021 at 8:08 AM, machine gun kelly said:

Thats partially true.  In the first game the winds were avg. 45 mph., so it became a running game for both teams.   We ran for over 200 yards, but BB’s problem was he dropped 8 back which was surprising he was that concerned with our passing game in those conditions.  If he would’ve pressed on us, we may have lost that game.

 

 

He was so concerned with shutting down our passing game, he missed it.  I was surprised as he typically is much better with strategy.  The Pats need a QB to compete.  We’ll see if if Jones is the answer.

Ill give you the wind for sure, but I think Bill allowed us to run so that we don't develop a rhythm in the passing game which is important for Josh and it also limits our scoring potential, imo as an offense even if we are running the ball effectively if we arent in rhythm and passing the ball effectively our ppg would decrease, so by allowing us to run the ball and in turn running the ball themsevles they limit our offense and points thus keeping the game closer for that final drive.

 

I didnt articulate what i was thinking or trying to say very well but I think maybe if Im lucky I got my point across.

[machine gun kelly]

10 minutes ago, just1hugheser said:

Ill give you the wind for sure, but I think Bill allowed us to run so that we don't develop a rhythm in the passing game which is important for Josh and it also limits our scoring potential, imo as an offense even if we are running the ball effectively if we arent in rhythm and passing the ball effectively our ppg would decrease, so by allowing us to run the ball and in turn running the ball themsevles they limit our offense and points thus keeping the game closer for that final drive.

 

I didnt articulate what i was thinking or trying to say very well but I think maybe if Im lucky I got my point across.

Sure. I won’t debate that point at all.  What I’m saying is in those winds even with Josh Allen’s arm there is still a margin for error as a gust of 50 or so can draw the ball off and you’re snacks can pick it off.  Therefore why so worried about the pass.

 

it sounds like you are a pats fan and as the mods say welcome here.  My point was if the pats ***** down te run which was suspect in 2020, even though successful in the pass, the pats would’ve forced our passing game meaning more opportunities for the pats.  It was a critical error for the pats.  I doubt even Favre with that rocket back in the day or elway would’ve had an easy time with that wind.  The thing about OP is the wind swirls which makes it even harder like the old Giants stadium.

 

you may have won that game if you put 8 in the box.  You’re team played into our hand.  When a level playing field in the second game it wasn’t even close.  You can say they had nothing to play for but neither did we when we shut out the jets from a playoff birth when futz was there.  Our guys wrecked the jets season.  We weren’t making the playoffs finishing 9-7 even with that win.

[just1hugheser]

11 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Sure. I won’t debate that point at all.  What I’m saying is in those winds even with Josh Allen’s arm there is still a margin for error as a gust of 50 or so can draw the ball off and you’re snacks can pick it off.  Therefore why so worried about the pass.

 

it sounds like you are a pats fan and as the mods say welcome here.  My point was if the pats ***** down te run which was suspect in 2020, even though successful in the pass, the pats would’ve forced our passing game meaning more opportunities for the pats.  It was a critical error for the pats.  I doubt even Favre with that rocket back in the day or elway would’ve had an easy time with that wind.  The thing about OP is the wind swirls which makes it even harder like the old Giants stadium.

 

you may have won that game if you put 8 in the box.  You’re team played into our hand.  When a level playing field in the second game it wasn’t even close.  You can say they had nothing to play for but neither did we when we shut out the jets from a playoff birth when futz was there.  Our guys wrecked the jets season.  We weren’t making the playoffs finishing 9-7 even with that win.

 

 

hahah the pats are not my team, I just respect belichek maybe more than i should in a roundabout way because i hate brady so much, maybe in my head im hoping belichek is better than he actually is just so i can take some credit away from brady, as for the wind i dont doubt it affects the ball a ton even with Allen's cannon however I think letting us run the ball was part of the gameplan wind or no wind because of JA and the success of our passing game.

 

It's really not that important to debate either way, its all just guessing at this point but I think those who think that belichek will be nothing without brady are mistaken and also that mac jones will pan out for them, do i want that to be the case?  absolutely not, i would love it if jones becomes a flop and belichek is shamed out of the nfl in a year or two for being nothing without brady.  However as it stands they have one of the best offensive lines, and imo have one of the best defenses in the league so if cam or mac can be marginally effective they should be very competitive.

 

haha you said i was a pats fan, if you knew me you would know how funny that actually is, I am a homer but I like to think i can be objective with what I actually think and not what i want.

[machine gun kelly]

Ok, fair enough.  

[just1hugheser]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

Ok, fair enough.  

Don't get me wrong I'm agreeing with you about the wind and the Pats should have switched their gameplan once they saw that the wind was going to stop JA far more effectively than they could especially without Gilmore, but that doesn't bolster my assertion that Belichek will still be a winner and considered one of the best coaches of all time even without Brady lol.

 

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

With Allen Belicheat is going to play the Bills this years like he played the Bills in the 1990 Super Bowl. We need to be ready for the Nickel and Dime formations.

[machine gun kelly]

Ktulu, the 49ers, Fins, and Stillers tried that exact strategy.  It didn’t work in good conditions.  We’ll see.  The Pats defense may be better as they received a couple of their opt outs back and Chung I believe retired.

 

They also brought in slower, but bigger WR’s and two TE’s that were an upgrade.  That should help a weaker QB or inexperienced one.  I’ll still place 21 red on Allen and Diggs all day long.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 5/18/2021 at 7:08 AM, DCofNC said:

Really? When please site an example of the Bills playing smash mouth football, that doesn’t involve Allen just taking off for a big run. 
 

 

Well strangely the Bills ran very heavily during 1st Pats game last year