ROCKPILE REVIEW - Still Growing

[Shaw66]

The Bills beat the Chargers on Sunday, 27-17, improving to 8-3 and staying a game ahead of the Dolphins and three games ahead of the Patriots.  After a promising start to the game, the Bills finished ugly.  For many fans, the operative word is ‘ugly.”  For the Bills, the operative word is “finished.”

 

With a 24-6 lead, the Bills had an opportunity to coast to an unusual easy victory.  Instead, in a scene familiar to Bills fans this season, the Bills gave up a touchdown, went four and out and then turned the ball over on three consecutive possessions.  Throw in a series of bad penalties and the second successful hail Mary in two games, and the game turned ugly and uncomfortably close.  Forget that, or at least don’t obsess over it.

 

The Bills are a Sean McDermott team, and Sean McDermott teams finish.  He builds his teams to finish.  He trains them to finish.  He expects them to finish.  Against the Chargers, the Bills finished.  They closed the game with an interception by Tre’Davious White, a short drive (including a couple of penalties), a clutch Bass field goal, and excellent bend-don’t-break prevent defense (including the 4^th and 27 hail Mary short of the end zone).  On the final play of the game, the Bills stuffed a quarterback sneak, beating the spread.  The Bills finished. 

 

The Chargers are one of the better 3-8 teams you’ll see.  Justin Herbert has been having a lights-our rookie season at quarterback, and they have a credible defense.   Against the Bills, both were no-go, more or less.  The Bills harrassed and confused Herbert all game, and the Bills defensive backfield offered him few big throwing windows.  Many of Herbert’s completions were close or contested catches.  He finished the game with a passer rating of 76.  In other words, the Bills pretty much stopped him.  And by the way, the Chargers have a decent run game, but the Bills stuffed that, too.

 

The Charger defense did okay trying to stop the Bills, but there simply was no way they could hold the Bills under 20.  The Bills attacked relentlessly with their running game, and in the second half they began having more success.  Singletary and Moss shared the load, each taking advantage of occasional seams to move the chains. 

 

Allen was efficient, when he wasn’t playing like a rookie.  He mishandled a snap and lost the fumble, he made a foolish desperation throw under pressure for an interception, and he avoided near-disaster on a couple of other low-reward high-risk plays.   He hasn’t learned that sometimes the right play is to take your lumps, even if it means you’ll punt.   Unless you’re in the final minute, there’s always another play.  Still, Allen was in control, made several good throws and managed the game.

 

A few observations:

 

1.  The Bills need to play under control.  Poyer’s unnecessary roughness, Oliver’s roughing the passer, Allen’s unsportsmanlike conduct all hurt the team.  There’s a difference between playing with an attitude and playing stupid.  One of the problems with playing stupid is that the team develops a reputation with the officials.  When the officials think your style is chippy, in-your-face, over-the-edge, you get calls like the taunting call on Moss – an obviously bad call except for the fact that Bills had spent the previous 20 minutes showing off their poor sportsmanship.  It’s been aing problem with Poyer all season, and now he seems to be infect other players.  The Bills need the officials to be on their side and not looking for flags to throw against them.

 

2.  Stephon Diggs didn’t exactly light up the stat sheet, but that’s because they don’t keep stats about penalties drawn.  The first-half pass interference that set up the Bills’ first touchdown was created by Diggs and Allen’s arm.  Every bit as good as a completion.  Through the second half, Diggs’s deep threat left him available to Allen repeatedly for easy five- to seven-yard gains.

 

3.  Tremaine Edmunds continues to makes plays.  He’s tackling more solidly, he’s getting off blocks, and he’s beginning to regain his form as an elite pass defender.  He’s in on a lot of plays, and he’s around even more. He looks a lot better than six weeks ago.

 

4.  AJ Klein, too. 

 

5.  I watched the game with my adult daughter, a good athlete but she’s never watched much football.  She’s a Bills fan, but she probably can name only two Bills players other than Allen.  When Lee Smith caught that three-yarder, she said “Who’s that?  Do the Bills actually give that guy the ball?”  Even my daughter could see that Smith is about as unlikely a tight end as you’ll see in the 2020 NFL. 

 

6.  Seems to me the Bills would have done better to pay a little attention to Joey Bosa. 

 

7.  Allen should have left the pocket more often.  He got in trouble and sacked on a couple of occasions when he should have sensed that it was time to go.

 

For many years during the drought, Bills fans asked that their team just play one meaningful game in December.  Bills fans lived to see the Bills name and logo listed under “In the Hunt” when networks showed the playoff possibilities.  We knew it was a matter of days or a week or two before the Bills fell off the list, but expectations were low.  Just be in the hunt a week or two in December.

 

Now, the Bills are looking at five meaningful games in December and January.    

 

The Bills are building for the playoffs.  You can see it in the defensive backfield.  Hyde, Poyer, White, and Wallace are getting stingier by the week.  Edmunds and Taron Johnson are part of it.  You can see it in the run defense - not dominant, but week after week the Bills seem to be plugging the leaks.  You can see it in the defensive aggressiveness and disguises.  The defense is getting tougher to handle. 

 

The run game is becoming more productive.  Allen’s in control, except when he isn’t.

 

The special teams are excellent, except when Bojorquez isn’t. 

 

This is the time Bills fans asked for: Meaningful games in December.  We have a lot be thankful for.

 

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

The Rockpile Review is written to share the passion we have for the Buffalo Bills. That passion was born in the Rockpile; its parents were everyday people of western New York who translated their dedication to a full day’s hard work and simple pleasures into love for a pro football team.

 

 

[Beast]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 

 

The Bills are a Sean McDermott team, and Sean McDermott teams finish. 

 

 

Cliche.
 

They did this week.

 

They didn’t in Arizona.

[Warcodered]

I mean on the mishandled snap is any of this on the fact that Morse hasn't been starting for a little while.

[wvbillsfan]

The point on the defensive secondary can’t be understated. They are all starting to come around 

 

They are starting to look healthy and make plays. What a turnaround by Taron Johnson- that’s the guy we saw last year. 
Same can be said for Edmunds and Tre

[y2zipper]

2 minutes ago, wvbillsfan said:

The point on the defensive secondary can’t be understated. They are all starting to come around 

 

They are starting to look healthy and make plays. What a turnaround by Taron Johnson- that’s the guy we saw last year. 
Same can be said for Edmunds and Tre

 

This is the first time since opening day we've seen the fully operational Bills secondary and it showed. The defense largely hasn't been healthy this year and is getting there.

[Mojo44]

Great OP. One other thing I would add is the absence of Brown. That’s probably why it seems like we couldn’t take the lid off their secondary. I hope this does not continue to be a liability going forward for the next three games.

[Bray Wyatt]

I believe Allen’s arm was hit on his int

[Paul Costa]

Nice summary Shaw. Many of us old timers are enjoying a positive season. There’s a fine line in the NFL. In the year of COVID-19 it really is one week at a time. Enjoy the win everyone. Next week isn’t promised. 😀

[GETTOTHE50]

this was your best review this season. your finals thoughts after point 7 was a good way to wrap things up, or atleast start to for the time being

[Hebert19]

48 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Tremaine Edmunds continues to makes plays.  He’s tackling more solidly, he’s getting off blocks, and he’s beginning to regain his form as an elite pass defender.  He’s in on a lot of plays, and he’s around even more. He looks a lot better than six weeks ago.

Him.  Oliver and even tre are starting to find their groove

[ganesh]

52 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

 

This is the time Bills fans asked for: Meaningful games in December.  We have a lot be thankful for.

 

Best quote of the day.  It is a great way to start December....by being Thankful.  Go Bills.

[ILBillsfan]

Protection vs Bosa was mind boggling to me as I did not understand why they were not using the RB to chip him or a TE on the chips as well.  Then following that up with WR's and TE's used to block Bosa on some of those run plays was head scratching to me

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

I believe Allen’s arm was hit on his int

Multiple body parts were hit.  I suppose if his arm hadn't been hit, maybe it would have been a highlight reel play, with Diggs making the catch going to the sideline.  Maybe we'd be pointing to that play as more Allen magic.

 

That's not what I saw.  I saw a QB in serious trouble, a QB who was supposed to be thinking that the only thing worse than a sack would be an INT.  Take the loss and move.  White's INT bailed him out.  

 

Want a sign of how bad it was?  When the Bills got the ball back, Daboll called five straight running plays.  The message to Allen?  If we can't trust you with the ball, we're taking the ball out of your hands. 

[Beach]

man, Bojo can boom some but it doesnt make him a good punter

[ClemsonBills]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Multiple body parts were hit.  I suppose if his arm hadn't been hit, maybe it would have been a highlight reel play, with Diggs making the catch going to the sideline.  Maybe we'd be pointing to that play as more Allen magic.

 

That's not what I saw.  I saw a QB in serious trouble, a QB who was supposed to be thinking that the only thing worse than a sack would be an INT.  Take the loss and move.  White's INT bailed him out.  

 

Want a sign of how bad it was?  When the Bills got the ball back, Daboll called five straight running plays.  The message to Allen?  If we can't trust you with the ball, we're taking the ball out of your hands. 

I mean they were trying to chew clock there as well... but I get it

[Don Otreply]

Any time we win by two scores and double digits is good in my eyes, even when it gets ugly, and it did get messy ugly, but we prevailed, and that is what counts, two seasons ago we lose this game, we are a team that doesn’t quit, and that gives us the ability to win games like this.

 

Go Bills!!!

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, ClemsonBills said:

I mean they were trying to chew clock there as well... but I get it

Yeah, I know.  But if you watched the Chiefs today, they had absolutely no fear letting Mahomes when they were trying to run clock.  By that point in the game, Allen had made enough questionable plays that I didn't want to see him throwing any more.  

[MiltonWaddams]

Key improvements that I think we can all agree upon in this game:

DB’s

LB with Klein and Edmunds making numerous key plays

Running Backs. Singletary’s fumble was bad. But, we saw some great runs from both he and Moss and, on a day when the passing offence was sub-par, they were needed and came through. 
The progression of a very high-calibre kicker. Bass is not in the Tucker and Butker conversation...yet. But, I sense it coming.

[Bray Wyatt]

20 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Multiple body parts were hit.  I suppose if his arm hadn't been hit, maybe it would have been a highlight reel play, with Diggs making the catch going to the sideline.  Maybe we'd be pointing to that play as more Allen magic.

 

That's not what I saw.  I saw a QB in serious trouble, a QB who was supposed to be thinking that the only thing worse than a sack would be an INT.  Take the loss and move.  White's INT bailed him out.  

 

Want a sign of how bad it was?  When the Bills got the ball back, Daboll called five straight running plays.  The message to Allen?  If we can't trust you with the ball, we're taking the ball out of your hands. 

i don’t think the play was foolish or desperate, plays like that happen though out the game. It’s an inherent risk of calling a pass play. 
 

Was there some where else for him to go with the ball? I’d have to look at it again, but I didn’t think it was a hero ball type play which is what I inferred was the point you were making by calling it foolish and desperate 

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, MiltonWaddams said:

The progression of a very high-calibre kicker. Bass is not in the Tucker and Butker conversation...yet. But, I sense it coming.

I agree about Bass.  I thought the opening kickoff was a good sign.  Bills had decided they could eat up the Chargers on kick coverage, so they called the directional kicker to corner.  Bass executed, the Bills got a good stop.  Then the penalty force the Bills to kick off again.  Kickoff team had just sprinted the length of the field, so they told Bass to kick it out of the end zone.  He did that (with the wind).  

 

The kick at the end of the game seemed routine for him.   Just like the three fifty yard+ jobs two weeks ago.  All good signs.  

Just now, Bray Wyatt said:

i don’t think the play was foolish or desperate, plays like that happen though out the game. It’s an inherent risk of calling a pass play. 
 

Was there some where else for him to go with the ball? I’d have to look at it again, but I didn’t think it was a hero ball type play which is what I inferred was the point you were making by calling it foolish and desperate 

Maybe I'll have to look for a replay.  It looked very much like hero ball to me. 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

The Bills beat the Chargers on Sunday, 27-17, improving to 8-3 and staying a game ahead of the Dolphins and three games ahead of the Patriots.  After a promising start to the game, the Bills finished ugly.  For many fans, the operative word is ‘ugly.”  For the Bills, the operative word is “finished.”

 

With a 24-6 lead, the Bills had an opportunity to coast to an unusual easy victory.  Instead, in a scene familiar to Bills fans this season, the Bills gave up a touchdown, went four and out and then turned the ball over on three consecutive possessions.  Throw in a series of bad penalties and the second successful hail Mary in two games, and the game turned ugly and uncomfortably close.  Forget that, or at least don’t obsess over it.

 

The Bills are a Sean McDermott team, and Sean McDermott teams finish.  He builds his teams to finish.  He trains them to finish.  He expects them to finish.  Against the Chargers, the Bills finished.  They closed the game with an interception by Tre’Davious White, a short drive (including a couple of penalties), a clutch Bass field goal, and excellent bend-don’t-break prevent defense (including the 4^th and 27 hail Mary short of the end zone).  On the final play of the game, the Bills stuffed a quarterback sneak, beating the spread.  The Bills finished. 

 

The Chargers are one of the better 3-8 teams you’ll see.  Justin Herbert has been having a lights-our rookie season at quarterback, and they have a credible defense.   Against the Bills, both were no-go, more or less.  The Bills harrassed and confused Herbert all game, and the Bills defensive backfield offered him few big throwing windows.  Many of Herbert’s completions were close or contested catches.  He finished the game with a passer rating of 76.  In other words, the Bills pretty much stopped him.  And by the way, the Chargers have a decent run game, but the Bills stuffed that, too.

 

The Charger defense did okay trying to stop the Bills, but there simply was no way they could hold the Bills under 20.  The Bills attacked relentlessly with their running game, and in the second half they began having more success.  Singletary and Moss shared the load, each taking advantage of occasional seams to move the chains. 

 

Allen was efficient, when he wasn’t playing like a rookie.  He mishandled a snap and lost the fumble, he made a foolish desperation throw under pressure for an interception, and he avoided near-disaster on a couple of other low-reward high-risk plays.   He hasn’t learned that sometimes the right play is to take your lumps, even if it means you’ll punt.   Unless you’re in the final minute, there’s always another play.  Still, Allen was in control, made several good throws and managed the game.

 

A few observations:

 

1.  The Bills need to play under control.  Poyer’s unnecessary roughness, Oliver’s roughing the passer, Allen’s unsportsmanlike conduct all hurt the team.  There’s a difference between playing with an attitude and playing stupid.  One of the problems with playing stupid is that the team develops a reputation with the officials.  When the officials think your style is chippy, in-your-face, over-the-edge, you get calls like the taunting call on Moss – an obviously bad call except for the fact that Bills had spent the previous 20 minutes showing off their poor sportsmanship.  It’s been aing problem with Poyer all season, and now he seems to be infect other players.  The Bills need the officials to be on their side and not looking for flags to throw against them.

 

2.  Stephon Diggs didn’t exactly light up the stat sheet, but that’s because they don’t keep stats about penalties drawn.  The first-half pass interference that set up the Bills’ first touchdown was created by Diggs and Allen’s arm.  Every bit as good as a completion.  Through the second half, Diggs’s deep threat left him available to Allen repeatedly for easy five- to seven-yard gains.

 

3.  Tremaine Edmunds continues to makes plays.  He’s tackling more solidly, he’s getting off blocks, and he’s beginning to regain his form as an elite pass defender.  He’s in on a lot of plays, and he’s around even more. He looks a lot better than six weeks ago.

 

4.  AJ Klein, too. 

 

5.  I watched the game with my adult daughter, a good athlete but she’s never watched much football.  She’s a Bills fan, but she probably can name only two Bills players other than Allen.  When Lee Smith caught that three-yarder, she said “Who’s that?  Do the Bills actually give that guy the ball?”  Even my daughter could see that Smith is about as unlikely a tight end as you’ll see in the 2020 NFL. 

 

6.  Seems to me the Bills would have done better to pay a little attention to Joey Bosa. 

 

7.  Allen should have left the pocket more often.  He got in trouble and sacked on a couple of occasions when he should have sensed that it was time to go.

 

For many years during the drought, Bills fans asked that their team just play one meaningful game in December.  Bills fans lived to see the Bills name and logo listed under “In the Hunt” when networks showed the playoff possibilities.  We knew it was a matter of days or a week or two before the Bills fell off the list, but expectations were low.  Just be in the hunt a week or two in December.

 

Now, the Bills are looking at five meaningful games in December and January.    

 

The Bills are building for the playoffs.  You can see it in the defensive backfield.  Hyde, Poyer, White, and Wallace are getting stingier by the week.  Edmunds and Taron Johnson are part of it.  You can see it in the run defense - not dominant, but week after week the Bills seem to be plugging the leaks.  You can see it in the defensive aggressiveness and disguises.  The defense is getting tougher to handle. 

 

The run game is becoming more productive.  Allen’s in control, except when he isn’t.

 

The special teams are excellent, except when Bojorquez isn’t. 

 

This is the time Bills fans asked for: Meaningful games in December.  We have a lot be thankful for.

 

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

The Rockpile Review is written to share the passion we have for the Buffalo Bills. That passion was born in the Rockpile; its parents were everyday people of western New York who translated their dedication to a full day’s hard work and simple pleasures into love for a pro football team.

 

 

 

What I found interesting is for as "ugly" a game it was or as "flat" as the Bills came out as I saw some others put it, the 18 point deficit the Chargers faced at 24-6 was the largest deficit all year for them, which has included games against the Chiefs and Buccaneers(the good Bucs before Brady started sucking). 

 

Just shows the Bills even when they aren't playing all that good can build some pretty impressive leads...did the same thing to the Cards before the bye at 23-9 before ultimately losing on the hail mary play.

[Houston's #1 Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

Cliche.
 

They did this week.

 

They didn’t in Arizona.

Oh, that's cold......

[Figster]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

What I found interesting is for as "ugly" a game it was or as "flat" as the Bills came out as I saw some others put it, the 18 point deficit the Chargers faced at 24-6 was the largest deficit all year for them, which has included games against the Chiefs and Buccaneers(the good Bucs before Brady started sucking). 

 

Just shows the Bills even when they aren't playing all that good can build some pretty impressive leads...did the same thing to the Cards before the bye at 23-9 before ultimately losing on the hail mary play.

 Ugly, sloppy, and flat to me sounds like a game filled with costly penalties, poor execution and uninspired play IMO.

 

 As nasty as some of the descriptions of the game may sound,

 

a healthy Josh Allen with a win today is a beautiful thing...

 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Multiple body parts were hit.  I suppose if his arm hadn't been hit, maybe it would have been a highlight reel play, with Diggs making the catch going to the sideline.  Maybe we'd be pointing to that play as more Allen magic.

 

That's not what I saw.  I saw a QB in serious trouble, a QB who was supposed to be thinking that the only thing worse than a sack would be an INT.  Take the loss and move.  White's INT bailed him out.  

 

Want a sign of how bad it was?  When the Bills got the ball back, Daboll called five straight running plays.  The message to Allen?  If we can't trust you with the ball, we're taking the ball out of your hands. 

That is NOT what this staff thinks

[Figster]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That is NOT what this staff thinks

We can't read the coaching staffs minds although I do tend to agree. Josh Allen has been doing a good job for the most part protecting the football IMO. If protecting the football means running the ball more at a point in the football game.  I don't think its something Allen or Daboll would have a problem with because the trust works both ways in my humble opinion. The Buffalo Bills needed to establish a run game regardless. For that to happen the RB's needed more touches/ involvement which went as planned IMO.

 

 

[y2zipper]

I wonder what they saw on film that made them go to the run-oriented plan today. I wouldn't say they came out flat as much I'd say it took the gameplan that they stuck with a little while to get rolling. The misdirection they rolled with in the first half didn't work sometimes, and that looks ugly when it doesn't work like on the QB sweep. It paid off in the 2nd half and looks way better if the team doesn't lose 2 fumbles.

[Figster]

1 hour ago, y2zipper said:

I wonder what they saw on film that made them go to the run-oriented plan today. I wouldn't say they came out flat as much I'd say it took the gameplan that they stuck with a little while to get rolling. The misdirection they rolled with in the first half didn't work sometimes, and that looks ugly when it doesn't work like on the QB sweep. It paid off in the 2nd half and looks way better if the team doesn't lose 2 fumbles.

On film two of the 3 teams that beat us ran the ball down our throats.  K C proved how important the running game can be in bad weather conditions IMO. Something Buffalo is sure to see more of with possibly a home playoff game in the future If all goes well IMO.

 

I like your observation/assessment about sticking to the gameplan.  I can also understand how it might appear flat vs Josh zipping the ball all over the playing field. (No pun intended y2zipper)

Edited November 30, 2020 by Figster

[Billsfan1972]

An ugly game coming off a bye (and a gut wrenching loss).  I expected much more on a perfect day in Orchard Park.

 

Very good review Shaw, but please stop with the McDermott envy.  It was not a well coached game.

 

SF showed signs of life, but expect that to be a one-off, then comes Pitt......

Edited November 30, 2020 by Billsfan1972

[CSBill]

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

6.  Seems to me the Bills would have done better to pay a little attention to Joey Bosa. 

 

7.  Allen should have left the pocket more often.  He got in trouble and sacked on a couple of occasions when he should have sensed that it was time to go.

 

 

Totally agree on both points, especially about Allen. Maybe he is/was ailing, but it sure seemed like there were times where he could have been more aggressive to scramble and make yards.

[y2zipper]

6 hours ago, Figster said:

On film two of the 3 teams that beat us ran the ball down our throats.  K C proved how important the running game can be in bad weather conditions IMO. Something Buffalo is sure to see more of with possibly a home playoff game in the future If all goes well IMO.

 

I like your observation/assessment about sticking to the gameplan.  I can also understand how it might appear flat vs Josh zipping the ball all over the playing field. (No pun intended y2zipper

 

I only asked because the Chargers run defense is better than it's pass defense. Against Seattle's bad pass defense they didn't even try to run. I'm not faulting it because it eventually worked outside of some bad execution on the fumbles.

[SoCal Deek]

Shaw, great observation on the “In the Hunt” reference. For years and years, while making thanksgiving dinner I would scream out to the family “hey look, we’re in the hunt!” when they’d flash that up during another meaningless Lions game. But not this year! In fact it didn’t even occur to me until you brought it up. 😊

[Shaw66]

10 hours ago, y2zipper said:

I wonder what they saw on film that made them go to the run-oriented plan today. I wouldn't say they came out flat as much I'd say it took the game plan that they stuck with a little while to get rolling. The misdirection they rolled with in the first half didn't work sometimes, and that looks ugly when it doesn't work like on the QB sweep. It paid off in the 2nd half and looks way better if the team doesn't lose 2 fumbles.

Everything McD and Daboll say comes back to a simple, over-arching objective - to be a good football team, the Bills need to be able to play all styles.  They need to be able to attack everywhere on the field, with the run and with the pass.  

 

They've obviously struggled running this season, and I think that as they develop each game plan from week to week they're looking for ways to win the game, obviously, but also for ways to succeed running the ball.  They need to be able to run, and they need to put a good running game on film to force future defenses to respect the run.  So, I'd guess that the Bills looked at this game as one of those opportunities.   They were facing a decent but not dominant run defense, and they didn't have John Brown to help attack a pretty good pass defense.  

 

To his credit, Daboll saw enough in the first half to keep attacking with the run, and the success that Singletary and Moss had was a significant factor in controlling the game. 

 

Also, this was the first opportunity to get the newly configured interior offensive line playing together in the run game, with Morse and Feliciano and Winters playing together.  

13 hours ago, Bray Wyatt said:

I believe Allen’s arm was hit on his int

I went back and looked at some video of the play.  It's possible his arm was hit, but Allen's throwing motion wasn't upset by any contact on his arm.   He was backpedaling, about to be hit by two defenders, and he floated a ball into double coverage.  In a game where you're supposed to be protecting a lead, it was the wrong decision. 

[947]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

3.  Tremaine Edmunds continues to makes plays.  He’s tackling more solidly, he’s getting off blocks, and he’s beginning to regain his form as an elite pass defender.  He’s in on a lot of plays, and he’s around even more. He looks a lot better than six weeks ago.

What bothers me about Edmunds' tackling, is he likes to pull the ball carrier down on top of himself, instead of driving through him, which always gives up an extra 2-3 yards. It's often 2nd & 2, instead of 2nd & 5 because of this. He did it a few times early yesterday, but did start stopping guys properly later in the game.

 

Overall, I agree he has been much better than the first several games.

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, 947 said:

What bothers me about Edmunds' tackling, is he likes to pull the ball carrier down on top of himself, instead of driving through him, which always gives up an extra 2-3 yards. It's often 2nd & 2, instead of 2nd & 5 because of this. He did it a few times early yesterday, but did start stopping guys properly later in the game.

 

Overall, I agree he has been much better than the first several games.

That's an interesting point.  I actually was pleased to seem drive his shoulder into a couple of ball carriers yesterday, but in general I think you're correct about this.   If you watch good safeties, and this has been true from George Saimes to Jim Leonhard to Micah Hyde, they give up yards when they tackle because they're the last line of defense - they'd rather be sure to take the guy down and give up the yards than to try to save the yards and miss the tackle, giving up a score.   Edmunds tackles more like a safety; he doesn't seem to be looking to stop a ball carrier dead in his tracks, let alone punish him.  

 

Sooner or later, I have to stop cutting the guy slack for being young, but I do think that continues to make a difference.  I suspect, I hope, he's still in the process of learning to play the position AND the process of building body mass.  I also think he was slowed by the injury earlier this season - yesterday he looked like a different guy.  He was playing with more abandon.  

 

Finally, as some of us talked about last week, Edmunds may be the guy who misses Star the most.  What makes Edmunds special is his speed and quickness, and what limits him is his strength.  When a 290-pound offensive lineman can get his hands on Edmunds, his strengths tend to be neutralized by his weakness.  Keeping those linemen off Edmunds is much more important that keeping them off a prototypical monster MLB; the monster MLB can handle the lineman.  Edmunds isn't that kind of guy - it's almost as if Edmunds is a safety playing in the middle.  He can do great things, but his teammates have to protect him a little. 

[Figster]

4 hours ago, y2zipper said:

 

I only asked because the Chargers run defense is better than it's pass defense. Against Seattle's bad pass defense they didn't even try to run. I'm not faulting it because it eventually worked outside of some bad execution on the fumbles.

I understand

 

Much thought has went into Buffalo's 3rd quarter woes this season and perhaps the lack of a good rushing attack as a change in playing style is part of the problem IMO. 

  

I was using the opportunity to emphasize the importance of a good run game and how even the best QB''s in the league are perfectly content to run the football. Mahomes, Tom Brady/ GOAT.  Its not a question of trust, its doing what works best under the conditions you are playing in IMO. Bad weather, run the football. Do you want to have better control TOP against powerhouse O like K  C, run the football. Do you want to assist your QB in the passing game? Run the football. Ask Ryan Tannehill what a good run game has done to help take his play/career to the next level.  

 

When you want to hold a lead and finish off an opponent. Run the football, and run it well.

 

Not as an afterthought...

Edited November 30, 2020 by Figster

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Figster said:

I understand

 

Much thought has went into Buffalo's 3rd quarter woes this season and perhaps the lack of a good rushing attack as a change in playing style is part of the problem IMO. 

  

I was using the opportunity to emphasize the importance of a good run game and how even the best QB''s in the league are perfectly content to run the football. Mahomes, Tom Brady/ GOAT.  Its not a question of trust, its doing what works best under the conditions you are playing in IMO. Bad weather, run the football. Do you want to have better control TOP against powerhouse O like K  C, run the football. Do you want to assist your QB in the passing game? Run the football. Ask Ryan Tannehill what a good run game has done to help take his play/career to the next level.  

 

When you want to hold a lead and finish off an opponent. Run the football, and run it well.

 

Not as an afterthought...

I agree with this, but not because I think McDermott is a run-first coach, or anything like it.   As I discussed above, McDermott wants his team to be able to play any kind of football - run this week, pass next.  The team obviously knows how to pass, although it always can improve.   The team needs work running.  I think part of Daboll's job every week is to figure out to the Bills can run on the opponent.  Little by little they've been getting better, mostly because they keep coming back to it.  Having said that, the Seattle game shows that they aren't going to run just for the sake of running - if they think they can win the game by passing all day, they'll do it. 

 

I do think that an important part of this philosophy is to that McDermott wants to force the opponent to prepare for everything.  He wants the film to send a message - "If we can find a way, we'll run on you.  If we can find a way, we'll pass on you.  You deal with it."

[RoyBatty is alive]

18 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Multiple body parts were hit.  I suppose if his arm hadn't been hit, maybe it would have been a highlight reel play, with Diggs making the catch going to the sideline.  Maybe we'd be pointing to that play as more Allen magic.

 

That's not what I saw.  I saw a QB in serious trouble, a QB who was supposed to be thinking that the only thing worse than a sack would be an INT.  Take the loss and move.  White's INT bailed him out.  

 

Want a sign of how bad it was?  When the Bills got the ball back, Daboll called five straight running plays.  The message to Allen?  If we can't trust you with the ball, we're taking the ball out of your hands. 

 

It was a terrible decision on the part of Allen, he seemed to regress on that play.  He was under duress falling backwards..he had the lead with time running down...that was the EXACT scenario you take a sack or with his arm strength throw it away.

[Shaw66]

12 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

It was a terrible decision on the part of Allen, he seemed to regress on that play.  He was under duress falling backwards..he had the lead with time running down...that was the EXACT scenario you take a sack or with his arm strength throw it away.

Right.  He's supposed to have the presence of mind in that situation to throw it out of bounds.  Now, the problem is that if he's throwing a split second earlier, heis job is to throw it and get the ball deeper and toward the sideline where only Diggs can get it, and if he's throwing a split second later, he should just be taking the sack.   We're asking the QB to make those distinctions - not easy, but that's what Allen's job is.  

[Figster]

34 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with this, but not because I think McDermott is a run-first coach, or anything like it.   As I discussed above, McDermott wants his team to be able to play any kind of football - run this week, pass next.  The team obviously knows how to pass, although it always can improve.   The team needs work running.  I think part of Daboll's job every week is to figure out to the Bills can run on the opponent.  Little by little they've been getting better, mostly because they keep coming back to it.  Having said that, the Seattle game shows that they aren't going to run just for the sake of running - if they think they can win the game by passing all day, they'll do it. 

 

I do think that an important part of this philosophy is to that McDermott wants to force the opponent to prepare for everything.  He wants the film to send a message - "If we can find a way, we'll run on you.  If we can find a way, we'll pass on you.  You deal with it."

The reason why I prefer a more balanced approach is because for a RB to be ready to produce when called upon he needs to be included enough in the Offensive game plan to begin with IMO.  Running the ball gives the Oline a chance to attack and wear down the oppositions D IMO. Dump it off to the RB in space more.  Allow a pass happy 1st half when succesful give way to a more run heavy 3rd quarter IMO. Allow your success in one to open up the other is how I see it. 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Figster said:

The reason why I prefer a more balanced approach is because for a RB to be ready to produce when called upon he needs to be included enough in the Offensive game plan to begin with IMO.  Running the ball gives the Oline a chance to attack and wear down the oppositions D IMO. Dump it off to the RB in space more.  Allow a pass happy 1st half when succesful give way to a more run heavy 3rd quarter IMO. Allow your success in one to open up the other is how I see it. 

Yeah, many of us, me included, tend to forget about that benefit of running the ball.  At it's heart, football is about defeating your opponent in hand-to-hand combat, and that combat happens at the line of scrimmage.   If win that battle, you usually win the game.  If you lose, you usually lose.  

 

Still, most Super Bowl winners have great QBs, pass the ball really well, and don't dominate with their run games.   Jim Brown, Jim Taylor, Franco Harris - those were the days when you count on winning by wearing out the opponent.  The 49ers tried to do it last season; the Ravens, too.  It's a tougher way to win these.  

 

So, I get what you're saying, and I don't disagree.  You have to be able to run.  But you don't have to be able to pound the ball down the opponents' throats.  The reality is that the effective short passing game the Pats ran and that Mahomes runs so well, when added to a decent running game, is enough to control the ball.