Singletary vs Moss

[spartacus]

5 hours ago, DCofNC said:

I may be the only one here, but if the way Singletary was used last year is any indication and the fact they spent ANOTHER 3rd round pick on a RB, I don’t think the team is sold on DS at all.  He’s exciting, but the lack of breakaway speed is a killer.  Personally, I think Moss COULD be a top 5-10 back in the league.  He’s basically a prototypical size/speed for the position, runs down hill, has some hands and is pretty elusive.  Aside from height, he’s a like a shiftier version of Derrick Henry.  No I am absolutely not saying he will be DH, but the skill sets are very similar and if he puts in the work and the scheme lines up, I have no problem envisioning that kind of success.  DS could make you miss in a phone booth, but he’s still awfully short and will almost always be the slowest skill position guy on the field, that combination rarely translates to big success in the NFL.  He could definitely make a place for himself on 3rd downs etc, but I’m not sure he’s ever going to strike fear into the hearts of anyone.  Moss just might, especially if the line comes together with Ford and Williams doing some road grading, it might be awfully hard to stop that guy.  
 

The exciting part in all of it, the line has a lot of potential to be not only good, but pretty deep this year, Allen should have some time and the RBs should have some big ole holes out there.  Every one of the linemen is pretty well built for the run, with Morse being more of a true pass protector, but still no slouch.  The running game should be a huge factor this year. Hopefully, they take a page out of the early Patriots dynasty play book, hammer the run when it’s there and torch you with the pass when it’s not.  This O can be awesome if Allen can do his part, there are 2 #1 WRs with speed, a crafty slot guy and I expect Gabe Davis to be a real factor as well, plus we can hope to see some more growth at the TE position, there should be a lot of room in the middle of the field if the run game pulls the Lbs up and the speed at WR takes the safeties deeper.  This could be a lot of fun.

spent a 3rd because they have no other starting caliber RB on the team

nothing  to do with being "down " on Singletary

[klos63]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Fumbles are overblown.  And he had 2 in 2 games all season long, losing one.

He had 4 fumbles in the regular season and one in the playoff game.  That's a lot of fumbling for someone with about 200 touches.

[DCofNC]

4 hours ago, spartacus said:

spent a 3rd because they have no other starting caliber RB on the team

nothing  to do with being "down " on Singletary

That’s a lot of capital to spend on a back after having just done so in the draft prior.   If they thought DS could be the man they could have signed a number of vets to back him up. 

[JoPoy88]

1 minute ago, DCofNC said:

That’s a lot of capital to spend on a back after having just done so in the draft prior.   If they thought DS could be the man they could have signed a number of vets to back him up. 

A single 3rd round pick is “a lot of capital” lol ?

[DCofNC]

1 minute ago, JoPoy88 said:

A single 3rd round pick is “a lot of capital” lol ?

You generally expect a starter, and considering its one of the top 100 prospects in a draft, yes, it IS a lot of capital.  

[JoPoy88]

11 hours ago, DCofNC said:

You generally expect a starter, and considering its one of the top 100 prospects in a draft, yes, it IS a lot of capital.  

No, it’s not. Draft picks are lottery tickets. You do your homework best you can to try to tip the chaos in your favor that’s it. Doesn’t matter the round the pick is in either. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

12 hours ago, DCofNC said:

You generally expect a starter, and considering its one of the top 100 prospects in a draft, yes, it IS a lot of capital.  

So no, and prior to this Front office not even close. 
 

actually this regime has been absurdly consistent on what a third rounder pick expectations look like. 
 

A solid rotational contributor at non premium position with upside to start in future years.

 

See Harrison Phillips, Dawson Knox, Devin Singletary and Zack Moss. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[spartacus]

12 hours ago, DCofNC said:

You generally expect a starter, and considering its one of the top 100 prospects in a draft, yes, it IS a lot of capital.  

they are building a stable of starting caliber back, using the draft to cost control the backfield.

highly doubt they will spend big money on any RB going forward, as you don't have to generate effective production

 

as you note, they can obtain a starter quality RB in the draft for a 3rd round pick.

other positions, like pass rusher, need big money, or high draft picks, or both to acquire

 

it would be foolish to thing the Bills are done with Singletary after last year's production validated the 3rd rnd pick spent on him

 

[machine gun kelly]

Using third round picks two years in a row that compliment each other, and cheap labor in a position that burns out younger in most cases as they get beat up.  It was a great idea considering we used free agency and trades to put a solid WR Corp.

[716er]

I am concerned about Singletary's fumbling but I think it is an area he will improve on. A lot of backs in the NFL have one year outliers where they fumble often, and for some it was their rookie year. I did not see much of Moss in college, but from the highlights I see a Mark Ingram style back.

 

Daboll should watch some film on what Brees and the Saints did with Kamara and Ingram in the backfield a couple of years ago and try to replicate that with Singletary and Moss.

Edited August 25, 2020 by 716er

[Real McClappy]

On 8/24/2020 at 7:19 AM, Mr. WEO said:

2 RBs can't be "extremely productive" in the same Offense in today's NFL.

Yup, RB1a and RB1b. 

 

Huge for injuries and keeping them fresh. The hunger competition is always there as well.

[TigerJ]

On 8/24/2020 at 12:35 AM, TheBrownBear said:

Moss is a tough workhorse back.  He'll play the role of Frank Gore, but much more effectively.  Singletary is the shifty guy who can get to the second level and has a nose for space.  Only thing we are missing is a homerun hitter.

I agree that Moss can be a tough workhorse back, but he's faster and shiftier than he's given credit for by a lot of people.  He's really a complete back coming out of college as his blocking and receiving skills are also solid.  He's a student of the game and a film junkie as well.  The Bills are in a really good place with this pair, and they don't even need to begin thinking about the future for a year

[Jauronimo]

I just can't worry about extending both Moss and Singletary while the organization has zero succession plan for Allen.  What is their plan for the QB position 10 years from now?!?!?  Beane has said nothing.

[Tipster19]

On 8/24/2020 at 10:47 AM, DCofNC said:

I may be the only one here, but if the way Singletary was used last year is any indication and the fact they spent ANOTHER 3rd round pick on a RB, I don’t think the team is sold on DS at all.  He’s exciting, but the lack of breakaway speed is a killer.  Personally, I think Moss COULD be a top 5-10 back in the league.  He’s basically a prototypical size/speed for the position, runs down hill, has some hands and is pretty elusive.  Aside from height, he’s a like a shiftier version of Derrick Henry.  No I am absolutely not saying he will be DH, but the skill sets are very similar and if he puts in the work and the scheme lines up, I have no problem envisioning that kind of success.  DS could make you miss in a phone booth, but he’s still awfully short and will almost always be the slowest skill position guy on the field, that combination rarely translates to big success in the NFL.  He could definitely make a place for himself on 3rd downs etc, but I’m not sure he’s ever going to strike fear into the hearts of anyone.  Moss just might, especially if the line comes together with Ford and Williams doing some road grading, it might be awfully hard to stop that guy.  
 

The exciting part in all of it, the line has a lot of potential to be not only good, but pretty deep this year, Allen should have some time and the RBs should have some big ole holes out there.  Every one of the linemen is pretty well built for the run, with Morse being more of a true pass protector, but still no slouch.  The running game should be a huge factor this year. Hopefully, they take a page out of the early Patriots dynasty play book, hammer the run when it’s there and torch you with the pass when it’s not.  This O can be awesome if Allen can do his part, there are 2 #1 WRs with speed, a crafty slot guy and I expect Gabe Davis to be a real factor as well, plus we can hope to see some more growth at the TE position, there should be a lot of room in the middle of the field if the run game pulls the Lbs up and the speed at WR takes the safeties deeper.  This could be a lot of fun.

You make some very valid points.

 

 

Maybe I misrep, I’m not at all worried about this season or either of these RBs, rather it’s actually the opposite. I’m ecstatic not about a RB but about 2 RBs! I seriously think that the Bills could possibly have a ground game that will be dominate for a few years. When was the last time anyone was able to feel like that about a Bills’ backfield? McCoy was nice but the best of him was mostly in the past and in the end he couldn’t stay healthy and/or played hurt. 
 

This is a message board, I like to think about things before they happen rather than talk about them after they happen. 

[fansince88]

On 8/24/2020 at 12:43 AM, Augie said:

 

I won’t hold my breath, but that would be a fabulous story.  

Yes it would!

On 8/24/2020 at 8:04 PM, JoPoy88 said:

A single 3rd round pick is “a lot of capital” lol ?

I agree with your reply. Devin taking a back seat to Moss seems absurd but still possible........but absurd. 

[machine gun kelly]

Some people are overthinking it.  They didn’t draft Moss because DS fumbled although a problem.  Remember on the Giants when Barber fumbled early in his career and his coach worked with him on his security skills with the ball.  Barber had a bad habit of holding with his hand and having it too far away from the inside of the elbow.  If you remember McCoy would hold the ball sometimes too far away from the secure spot which always made me nervous, but he rarely fumbled.  It’s a bad habit of mine as I played LB, but also RB.  I also coached my sons in flag, then tackle football for awhile so I’m used to teaching fundamentals to young boys.

 

If DS can get that ball secured better, the punching out or just plain fumbling will decrease.  Moss is a great compliment and forget about Covid, RB’s get hurt so to have two quality ones will make it easier to keep the ground game going.  I’m happy for the pick, and glad we don’t have to worry about a contract extension for three to four years.

 

Juxtaposed, I don’t see DS having anything to worry about Moss supplanting him.  Motor will probably be seen a lot between the 20’s, and Moss Should get more time on 3rd and 1, or in the red zone.

[JESSEFEFFER]

A fair question would be what is fair compensation for a decent, do-it-all RB on a 2nd contract when they are part of a tandem?  Some say don't even bother while others might say yes but for less guaranteed and fewer years.  All other positions are cashing in including average, rotational DL.  

[DCofNC]

11 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

You make some very valid points.

 

 

Maybe I misrep, I’m not at all worried about this season or either of these RBs, rather it’s actually the opposite. I’m ecstatic not about a RB but about 2 RBs! I seriously think that the Bills could possibly have a ground game that will be dominate for a few years. When was the last time anyone was able to feel like that about a Bills’ backfield? McCoy was nice but the best of him was mostly in the past and in the end he couldn’t stay healthy and/or played hurt. 
 

This is a message board, I like to think about things before they happen rather than talk about them after they happen. 

It is nice to think the running game might actually be solid this year.  I was optimistic going into last year with 2 HOF potential rbs and DS, but things change quickly.

 

23 hours ago, TigerJ said:

I agree that Moss can be a tough workhorse back, but he's faster and shiftier than he's given credit for by a lot of people.  He's really a complete back coming out of college as his blocking and receiving skills are also solid.  He's a student of the game and a film junkie as well.  The Bills are in a really good place with this pair, and they don't even need to begin thinking about the future for a year

 

I agree, Moss should/could be an every down back, his skill set is really solid, the reason he was drafted “low” is his 40 time, but he’s plenty fast, it shows on tape.  I see him as a Travis Henry type.

 

On 8/25/2020 at 9:09 AM, machine gun kelly said:

Using third round picks two years in a row that compliment each other, and cheap labor in a position that burns out younger in most cases as they get beat up.  It was a great idea considering we used free agency and trades to put a solid WR Corp.

 

Valid point.  My question becomes, is it smart to spend 3rd rounders on RBs when guys like Yeldon, etc are available for a song in FA and you know what you are getting?  I’d like to see a little more upside to the picks, though I think Moss was a steal, DS seems more of a role player.
 

On 8/25/2020 at 8:15 AM, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

So no, and prior to this Front office not even close. 
 

actually this regime has been absurdly consistent on what a third rounder pick expectations look like. 
 

A solid rotational contributor at non premium position with upside to start in future years.

 

See Harrison Phillips, Dawson Knox, Devin Singletary and Zack Moss. 

 

I agree in principle here, but when you are drafting where the Bills have been, the 3rd round represents about the 80th player off the board.  That still is a place you should find starters and you take guys with that bigger boom/bust potential IF you can afford to.  The lack of competence in the draft is why the Bills have generally sucked for a long time.  
 

Honestly, though Beane appears to be on a better track, there’s a lot to see how it plays out.  So far, none of his picks have been home runs.  Allen may blossom or he may Turbiski, we don’t know, he has not come out dominating by any stretch.  Edmonds has been ok, but certainly not living up to the LT comparisons we heard at draft day.  Oliver was not a big factor last year and so on.  The last really impressive pick came from Whaley, that’s Tre, but that’s also at the sacrifice of Watson/Maholmes.  None of Beane’s lower picks have been tremendous, time will tell if anybody develops into more than potential.

[billsfan89]

On 8/25/2020 at 6:09 AM, machine gun kelly said:

Using third round picks two years in a row that compliment each other, and cheap labor in a position that burns out younger in most cases as they get beat up.  It was a great idea considering we used free agency and trades to put a solid WR Corp.

 

If Moss or DS pan out as a good starter and the other a solid complement you are basically set at the RB position for the next three seasons which is a huge positive for a young QB like Josh to have.

[TheBeaneBandit]

On 8/25/2020 at 9:26 AM, 716er said:

I am concerned about Singletary's fumbling but I think it is an area he will improve on. A lot of backs in the NFL have one year outliers where they fumble often, and for some it was their rookie year. I did not see much of Moss in college, but from the highlights I see a Mark Ingram style back.

 

Daboll should watch some film on what Brees and the Saints did with Kamara and Ingram in the backfield a couple of years ago and try to replicate that with Singletary and Moss.

Kamara has elite route running ability and speed, the one quality our backs don't have. There are still plenty of options for featuring both our guys though. 

[716er]

33 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Kamara has elite route running ability and speed, the one quality our backs don't have. There are still plenty of options for featuring both our guys though. 

 

No doubt Singletary doesn't have the speed of Kamara, but he runs great routes. He gets open very well for an RB, but he did drop a few passes last year he should have caught. 

[Tipster19]

38 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Kamara has elite route running ability and speed, the one quality our backs don't have. There are still plenty of options for featuring both our guys though. 

Point well taken but what I like about the Bills’ offense is the potential of it. Having a big mobile QB like Josh who can sling it down the field to WRs  like Diggs and Brown and in addition a couple of pass catching TEs sure can open up the box for a couple of elusive power RBs who can catch out of the backfield make elite speed not quite as important to the Bills as it may be to some other teams’ offenses that are not quite so diverse as the Bills’. Someone earlier mentioned Christian Wade for the “home run” ability. I like that idea the more I think about it because why would the Bills keep such a project on the roster if they aren’t planning on using him?

[Lothar]

Moss' college stats show he is as elusive a back as DS, but with more of a thumper mentality. This combo will be just fine.

[Doc]

Use DS earlier in games and then bring in Moss later when defenses are tired.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Which one will have the better FFL outlook?

[JESSEFEFFER]

I don't know the number but I think it was more than once where Josh scored the TD after they tried numerous times with Gore and failed.  Moss gets those carries I think,  less Josh TDs and more Moss.  Singletary not likely to be the first or second choice down close, imo.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Which one will have the better FFL outlook?

 

[MJS]

Just did a fantasy draft and got Singletary, Diggs, and Josh Allen all well below their ADP. I'm expecting Singletary to be a good RB2 this year. I have Kamara as my RB1.

 

Also picked up Leveon Bell way below his ADP, but that's more of a risky pick.

13 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

I don't know the number but I think it was more than once where Josh scored the TD after they tried numerous times with Gore and failed.  Moss gets those carries I think,  less Josh TDs and more Moss.  Singletary not likely to be the first or second choice down close, imo.

 

Yeah, Allen takes a lot of goal line touches from the running backs, and Moss should get some too, but Singletary will likely be used more in the passing game and will be valuable in PPR leagues, I'd bet.

[MJS]

On 8/26/2020 at 9:10 AM, TheBeaneBandit said:

Kamara has elite route running ability and speed, the one quality our backs don't have. There are still plenty of options for featuring both our guys though. 

Kamara was a 3rd round pick too and somewhat of a surprise when he broke out as a player. No reason Singletary and / or Moss can't break out as well, although neither of them have elite speed.

[NewEra]

On 8/26/2020 at 8:59 AM, Tipster19 said:

Point well taken but what I like about the Bills’ offense is the potential of it. Having a big mobile QB like Josh who can sling it down the field to WRs  like Diggs and Brown and in addition a couple of pass catching TEs sure can open up the box for a couple of elusive power RBs who can catch out of the backfield make elite speed not quite as important to the Bills as it may be to some other teams’ offenses that are not quite so diverse as the Bills’. Someone earlier mentioned Christian Wade for the “home run” ability. I like that idea the more I think about it because why would the Bills keep such a project on the roster if they aren’t planning on using him?

Because we can keep him and not use a roster, or practice squad spot or risk another team taking him. He’s a unique athlete with a unique designation.  Not keeping him would be stupid imo. 

[machine gun kelly]

Wade is good for COVID depth, and RB’s get hurt.  I’d still keep motor, Moss, and Yeldon.  The bills seem to like having a FB as an option.

[ehfeuh57]

Its hard to prove yourself the way Singletary did in his rookie year

 

with that said Singletary probably will not get the same workload going forward, which will probably be the correct strategy to mix in a bunch of Moss as well.

 

Sucks for fantasy but best game theory for Bills winning.

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, DrDare said:

Its hard to prove yourself the way Singletary did in his rookie year

 

with that said Singletary probably will not get the same workload going forward, which will probably be the correct strategy to mix in a bunch of Moss as well.

 

Sucks for fantasy but best game theory for Bills winning.

 

He should get at least the same workload as last year, when he split reps with Gore.

[DJB]

Its going to be nice to actually have two talented RB's on the team. 

 

I'm glad we get to actually enjoy watching Frank Gore now. 

[Logic]

Moss will end up as the lead back by season’s end.

 

Better pass blocker, better ball security.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

Moss will end up as the lead back by season’s end.

 

Better pass blocker, better ball security.

 

If that is true, I will be very pleasantly surprised. I was VERY impressed by Singletary last year. It will take time for Moss to get up to speed, but if he can be the better option, we are better off for that level of competition.