Bill O'Brien will kneel...JJ Watt says kneeling is no disrespect to the flag or military

[muppy]

10 hours ago, BillsFan17 said:

Yeah, and those same people have the freedom to comment on anything thread these choose. Trying to silence people's opinions you disagree with, SMH

I never said they didnt...except entering a thread to say shut up seems counterproductive to any DISCUSSION..lets all go outside  and shut our traps Gotcha lol 

 

dozens of threads to choose to post in just sayin'.......

Edited June 15, 2020 by Muppy
highlighting

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

Again, you keep assuming im white? Why? Why are you that insecure you need to project me being white?

Yup, im not smart, you have nothing to back your argument up with, so I'm no smart. Well played... this place is becoming an echo chamber of stupidity and its evident.

So you don’t think that athletes have a bigger audience than the Jiffy Lube employee?

[Putin]

31 minutes ago, Ecmic82 said:

OK, a QB absolutely needs to yell out "Black Lives Matter" during a kneel-down at some point this year ?

I would love to see Josh do it 50 times this year in support of BLM after every DT !!!

 

[Rc2catch]

I’ll support whatever the teams stance is on this. There’s really no right or wrong in this situation. If they want to kneel or not shouldn’t change the product on the field, and at the end of the day that’s all I care about as a fan. Not downgrading the BLM movement but it’s highly possible it’s old news by kickoff of week 1. Statements have been made. They’re continuing to be made. It won’t be fresh by kickoff. 
I fully expect all professional sports to have some form of endorsement of BLM at every game rather it’s an opening statement on screen or somewhere on the field. At this point I don’t see most of this as genuine as it is damage control and hopping on the trend for most public figures. If 90% of these people actually cared they would have been vocal a long time ago. Now they just want to state they’re not against BLM 

[John from Riverside]

10 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

There's nothing more American than allowing players to kneel during the national anthem. "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." 

 

A smart move for the NFL after the National Anthem would be to ask everybody in the stadium (including the players) to rise and have 15 seconds of silence to honor the brave men and women in the military to honor those who are serving/have served or died defending this country.

I didnt have and dont have any problem with players kneeling.

 

Just please dont burn my flag......

[Dick_Cheney]

53 minutes ago, Ecmic82 said:

I think at this point the NFL is shifting toward a more long term financial strategy.

 

I'm confident in saying the NFL will allow players to kneel this season. I'm also confident that the NFL's position won't  be rooted in some moral obligation to allow peaceful protest.

 

They'll allow peaceful protest because they think it's the more financially advantageous position to take.

 

And I don't think they're wrong. The NFL has a pretty good track record of knowing where the money is.

The NFL has always been a long term strategy. They've also been mostly good in toeing the line when an issue comes up that's sensitive, and waiting to pick a side until they absolutely have to. Just take a look at how domestic abuse situations were handled when they used to occur, versus how they occur in more recent incidents. Much less tolerance and appropriately so.

 

The NFL will allow peaceful protest because they are finally recognizing that the players are the ones who have the power. The players, again, predominantly people of color, have recognized as many other groups of people have recently, that they are the blood of which the big machine runs. There is strength in numbers and the players hold more cards than the owners do, but getting enough people on the same page to organize and demonstrate effectively is the hard part. The people and the players have had enough of the blind eye being turned to this issue, as well as it being covered up under the bogus framing of being non-patriotic or whatever.

 

The NFL recognizes that the old, conservative, racist demographic which it has relied on for too long now isn't going to be around a whole lot longer. At least not in a majority sort of sense as it has been. If the league wants to be an organization that younger people, who are far more socially aware, tolerant, and understanding compared to the generations before them, feel like giving their time and money to, this is the only approach to take, and it is right and it is long overdue.

[muppy]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

I didnt have and dont have any problem with players kneeling.

 

Just please dont burn my flag......

that to me as well is straight up disrespect even though protected speech I'll never be okay with it personally. Except when done respectfully to retire an old tattered by weather one. Ive witnessed that during my time in Scouts .. its reverent  the opposite of disrespectful.

[Rocky Landing]

1 hour ago, BillsFan17 said:

No, you said it was easy. I have done my research, id love to see yours. Telling me its so simple I should do it either means you can't do it your self, or there aren't any and it easier to deflect.

You are the one deflecting. If you read my post, I made it clear that it was not about stats. Instead, I gave what I hope you would agree was a thoughtful response of what I believe to be the essence of systemic racism, with examples-- all of which you have chosen to ignore. In fact, you have ignored the entire post, and instead engaged in straw-man argument. Frankly, I don't really think statistics are all that important to recognize systemic racism. If you don't understand its precepts, I don't know that stats are going to help all that much.  Be that as it may, I did exactly what I suggested you do, and googled "stats for systemic racism," and immediately found this WaPo article with a bunch: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/if-you-dont-believe-systemic-racism-is-real-explain-these-statistics/2020/06/12/ce0dff6e-acc7-11ea-94d2-d7bc43b26bf9_story.html

 

I suspect this will be my last response to this. I don't think you're really interested in an honest discussion.

[Heavy Kevi]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

It is a serious conundrum to be sure, I would be of the opinion that if an employee is doing harm to their co- workers well being or their employer who is in turn doing no harm to others in their business dealings then that hypothetical person is the problem, and should be let go, but on the other hand if said person does their protesting away from work, and even if their employer dislikes it,  that person should not be punished for exercising their rights, again if they do their job well. Having been the manager of a small business for many years I understand your point. 
 

You are correct that it is the large corporations that are the ones most likely to abuse others through their business dealings, this is where greed and power abuses show there ugly heads most frequently. That is where regulation of capitalism is most appropriate and needed.  
 

I have no problem with folk creating and having wealth, I do however have a problem with those individuals or entities that allow greed and power lust to purposefully restrict others from that opportunity.
 

Being a good neighbor as an individual or business is a necessity if one holds having a great society as a priority, which I do. I truly understand that perfect is not gonna happen, but doing ones best to not be part of the problem is alway desirable. 
 

 

This time I agree with every word!

[ColoradoBills]

8 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I didnt have and dont have any problem with players kneeling.

 

Just please dont burn my flag......

 

...........sorry, but I have burned a number of flags.  There are other options but never throw a full flag in the garbage.

 

Did you know the Boy Scouts of America is one of the very few organizations that have an official code for flag retirement? Respect for our nation’s symbols are an integral part of being a reverent, responsible Scout; thus we have specific rules for the appropriate retirement of the United States flag. In fact, conducting a flag retirement ceremony is a very meaningful opportunity for Scouts and Scouters to reflect on the meaning of the flag as a great symbol of freedom.

The BSA Handbook states: “A national flag that is worn beyond repair may be burned in a fire. The ceremony should be conducted with dignity and respect and the flag burned completely to ashes.” 

[John from Riverside]

9 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

...........sorry, but I have burned a number of flags.  There are other options but never throw a full flag in the garbage.

 

Did you know the Boy Scouts of America is one of the very few organizations that have an official code for flag retirement? Respect for our nation’s symbols are an integral part of being a reverent, responsible Scout; thus we have specific rules for the appropriate retirement of the United States flag. In fact, conducting a flag retirement ceremony is a very meaningful opportunity for Scouts and Scouters to reflect on the meaning of the flag as a great symbol of freedom.

The BSA Handbook states: “A national flag that is worn beyond repair may be burned in a fire. The ceremony should be conducted with dignity and respect and the flag burned completely to ashes.” 

I know all this.  I have been a member of a flag detail while in the Air Force including doing the proper way to fold flags at funerals, raising the flag in the mornings and lowering them all of that.

 

I am talking about buring a flag as a public statement of protest.  Not retiring a flag that has been worn.

[BillsFan17]

17 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

You are the one deflecting. If you read my post, I made it clear that it was not about stats. Instead, I gave what I hope you would agree was a thoughtful response of what I believe to be the essence of systemic racism, with examples-- all of which you have chosen to ignore. In fact, you have ignored the entire post, and instead engaged in straw-man argument. Frankly, I don't really think statistics are all that important to recognize systemic racism. If you don't understand its precepts, I don't know that stats are going to help all that much.  Be that as it may, I did exactly what I suggested you do, and googled "stats for systemic racism," and immediately found this WaPo article with a bunch: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/if-you-dont-believe-systemic-racism-is-real-explain-these-statistics/2020/06/12/ce0dff6e-acc7-11ea-94d2-d7bc43b26bf9_story.html

 

I suspect this will be my last response to this. I don't think you're really interested in an honest discussion.

I'll counter with Larry Edler and Thomas Sowell 

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I know all this.  I have been a member of a flag detail while in the Air Force including doing the proper way to fold flags at funerals, raising the flag in the mornings and lowering them all of that.

 

I am talking about buring a flag as a public statement of protest.  Not retiring a flag that has been worn.

 

John, I know you are ex-Air Force (I've seen you mention that in other posts) as am I.  I should of stipulated in my post that I knew what you meant but thought it a good opportunity to let others know about proper flag etiquette.  I was wrong not to acknowledge that and apologize.

 

I too also agree with your other post about players "kneeling".  I have no problem with citizens right to protest.  That fact is what makes this country special

in history.

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

John, I know you are ex-Air Force (I've seen you mention that in other posts) as am I.  I should of stipulated in my post that I knew what you meant but thought it a good opportunity to let others know about proper flag etiquette.  I was wrong not to acknowledge that and apologize.

 

I too also agree with your other post about players "kneeling".  I have no problem with citizens right to protest.  That fact is what makes this country special

in history.

Colorado not a problem at all

 

 

[Yav]

Why is this even an issue for

anyone? Seriously, have any of you gone

to Arrowhead for a game? They replace the lyrics of the national anthem to “home

of the chiefs”, they’ve been doing that for years and not one person has said anything. That is more

disrespectful than a person choosing to listen to the song, and peacefully take a knee

[H2o]

1 hour ago, Margarita said:

or maybe not click open a thread to complain and attempt to squelch anyone elses thoughts..free speech free to choose what you click and what not to...SMH

Did I say shut down all of them? Nope. I said make a subforum, hence free speech is still in full effect. Your right to bicker and claim your opinion is the correct opinion still stands. Syh all you want. The incessant pissing and moaning that goes back and forth, mainly in the same responses just over a different name, is quite tired at this point. 

[Returntoglory]

Sure. As long as it's not during the national anthem. If they would like to stand in honor of our flag and then AFTER the SSB is played take a knee, I'm all for that. 

[muppy]

14 minutes ago, H2o said:

Did I say shut down all of them? Nope. I said make a subforum, hence free speech is still in full effect. Your right to bicker and claim your opinion is the correct opinion still stands. Syh all you want. The incessant pissing and moaning that goes back and forth, mainly in the same responses just over a different name, is quite tired at this point. 

you are imposing this victimhood on yourself I dont buy it. dozens of threads in the football forum you know what it will entail if you enter  by the thread title ...enter if it interests you or don't but don't dictate where things belong....... your role  isn't Moderator..talk to them instead just a suggestion

[Julio Hopkins]

No duh, it was obviously never about the flag or military according to the people who actually did the kneeling.  

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Dick_Cheney said:

The NFL has always been a long term strategy. They've also been mostly good in toeing the line when an issue comes up that's sensitive, and waiting to pick a side until they absolutely have to. Just take a look at how domestic abuse situations were handled when they used to occur, versus how they occur in more recent incidents. Much less tolerance and appropriately so.

 

The NFL will allow peaceful protest because they are finally recognizing that the players are the ones who have the power. The players, again, predominantly people of color, have recognized as many other groups of people have recently, that they are the blood of which the big machine runs. There is strength in numbers and the players hold more cards than the owners do, but getting enough people on the same page to organize and demonstrate effectively is the hard part. The people and the players have had enough of the blind eye being turned to this issue, as well as it being covered up under the bogus framing of being non-patriotic or whatever.

 

The NFL recognizes that the old, conservative, racist demographic which it has relied on for too long now isn't going to be around a whole lot longer. At least not in a majority sort of sense as it has been. If the league wants to be an organization that younger people, who are far more socially aware, tolerant, and understanding compared to the generations before them, feel like giving their time and money to, this is the only approach to take, and it is right and it is long overdue.

 

 

This is clearly not true.  Teams cut and trade guys at will.  Injured guys get paid off and released. Kaepernick never got back in.  Every owner knows there is a never-ending stream of players who would do anything to get on a roster.  They have the weakest union in sports and for the most part, do not have guaranteed contracts.

 

The power is overwhelmingly in favor of the owners.  Nothing recently can change that.  Owners make a big show of "allowing" players to kneel during a game....then it's get out there and make our money.

 

 

Nothing has changed.  This is window dressing.  It costs owners nothing and they have waited until after even F-ing NASCAR made a move.  So bold!

 

[BillsFan2313]

3 hours ago, RiotAct said:

I’m fine.

 

You sure? 

2 hours ago, BillsFan17 said:

You're pretty sure? Moreover, the fact my race, religion, creed, means more than my views says more about you than me. 

 

Also, this is far from arguing, this is someone trying to project, and failing. I don't need some complete stranger guessing my ethnicity, acting upon that assumption, than trying to insult me.

 

You are part of the problem.

 

So, what is your ethnicity?

[H2o]

36 minutes ago, Margarita said:

you are imposing this victimhood on yourself I dont buy it. dozens of threads in the football forum you know what it will entail if you enter  by the thread title ...enter if it interests you or don't but don't dictate where things belong....... your role  isn't Moderator..talk to them instead just a suggestion

Victim what? Where did I say I was a victim? Where do you get that from in anything that I said? This statement makes absolutely no sense.  So, now you are trying to silence my opinion because I'm not a moderator? Kind of double standard-like isn't it? The same people will be opposed who are opposed now. The same people who don't care are going to not care. The same people who are for it will remain for it. No matter the name, no matter the color, no matter the athlete, coach, owner, or whoever doing it. It's the same arguments from all sides since 2016. Nothing has changed except the names. You're obviously confused as to the point I am making though so there's really nothing left for me to say here. Continue on with your 1A right to bicker about whatever it is you choose. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by H2o

[muppy]

8 hours ago, H2o said:

Victim what? Where did I say I was a victim? Where do you get that from in anything that I said? This statement makes absolutely no sense.  So, now you are trying to silence my opinion because I'm not a moderator? Kind of double standard-like isn't it? The same people will be opposed who are opposed now. The same people who don't care are going to not care. The same people who are for it will remain for it. No matter the name, no matter the color, no matter the athlete, coach, owner, or whoever doing it. It's the same arguments from all sides since 2016. Nothing has changed except the names. You're obviously confused as to the point I am making though so there's really nothing left for me to say here. Continue on with your 1A right to bicker about whatever it is you choose. 

Okay I'll answer this ..no you didn't label yourself a victim but you griped about people posting about athletes kneeling when  you never weren't  forced to open the thread. " OH Poor Me I am forced to see a thread about kneeling in the football threads" ....  It's  your choice to open it......or Not...... I suggested you contact a mod if you wanted its change of forum. But to chastise posters for something you don't like discussed?....No I guess I dont get your point mine remains the same if you don't like the topic why enter the thread.  Same arguments since 2016  is a different take altogether. I disagree with that too  I think the George Floyd death changes the narrative and awareness of the problem exponentially.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Muppy
clarifying

[MassHog]

People still thing the kneeling was meant to disrespect the flag? Crazy, its been 4 years?

[muppy]

one last comment and I'll bow out of this discussion. Not meaning to disparage anybody but I don't think encouraging the population not to discuss such topics is helpful or fruitful  especially when people are discussing how their views are changing and evolving from when this kneeling issue came into the NFL discussion and national stage. Apologies to @H2o I just was rankled by his opinion that it be shuffled off to a different forum. Its relevant wether we want it to be or not.

 

Rightly or wrongly this issue is infringing on our NFL football. Do I wish these discussions weren't relevant or necessary absolutely. And yes this issue isnt new. But the increased discussion in favor of a peaceful protest indeed IS by virtue of how many people are speaking out now agreeing with kneeling as a peaceful protest. Its an important change in national dialogue as well as in the NFL scheme of things. I hope it doesnt just become a symbolic gesture and can somehow open into discussions of how to make meaningful change off the football field.

 

Peace OUT.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Margarita

[MassHog]

12 hours ago, Putin said:

If kneeling has nothing to do with disrespecting the ?? or the military , then why Brees got crucified for standing up for the ?? and the military that his both grandparents served ? 
 

Damn dude you're way off on that one. He got roasted because he failed to see it as disrespect to the flag. Its been 4 years and someone who went to Purdue and is considered one of the most intelligent people in the NFL couldn't open his ears enough to figure out the message. That is why he got lit up online. I am glad he listened to his teammates and opened up his mind enough to understand the stance.  

 

It doesnt take a Purdue education to listen...

[BillsMafia828]

1 hour ago, Julio Hopkins said:

No duh, it was obviously never about the flag or military according to the people who actually did the kneeling.  

You're right, this is what it's all about

Edited June 14, 2020 by BillsMafia828

[Cal]

A lot of anti-Americans on here. Sad.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, Cal said:

A lot of anti-Americans on here. Sad.

Grow up.

[Success]

To me, what Kaep did & started is what is so amazing about America.  I love it. I happen to agree w/ what they were doing, but I also embrace expressions of opinion that I disagree with, as well.

 

It's what makes us great.  Think about the countries we see as oppressive - opinion is more monolithic. Criticism of the gov't & open expression is generally not allowed, and often punished.  

 

We shouldn't be afraid of opinions, or how people express them - unless they hurt someone or are of the "fire in a crowded theater" variety.  The founders called it the marketplace of ideas.  We should welcome opinions that oppose our own.  We shouldn't try to shut them down - if we disagree, we should counter them with our own opinions.

 

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, BillsFan2313 said:

At this point, how is there 20 votes for no? 

Because people are allowed to have an opinion dude. Isnt that the purpose of a poll?

[BillsFan2313]

14 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Because people are allowed to have an opinion dude. Isnt that the purpose of a poll?

 

Yeah, and my opinion that its shocking to me. Is that cool, dude? 

[BillsMafia828]

23 minutes ago, Cal said:

A lot of anti-Americans on here. Sad.

For clarication purpsose. My son is LE and  believes in police reform. However, when the protest turned into riots the movement lost its purpsoe. 

[Mailman]

43 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

Yeah, and my opinion that its shocking to me. Is that cool, dude? 

Sure. Just pointing out that people have the right to a different opinion. Its taxing to see people shame those if they do not conform to others thinking. You even posting a comment on the poll results says it all...dude 

[SoCal Deek]

The problem with kneeling out of protest for ANYTHING, is knowing when to decide it’s OK to get back up! Bowing your head out of respect for the fallen is different. Respect never ends. Protesting on the other hand...has to end sometime...no?

[TigerJ]

I figure it would be his choice.  I personally would not do it in his shoes, but I respect the reasons he might choose to do so.

[racketmaster]

I would have to say I would not be happy if McDermott decided to kneel during the national anthem. If it were a one time deal to start the season and it was an act of solidarity performed by all players and fans, then I might not have an issue with it. But if it was a persistent thing then I would be totally opposed. 
 

We could all right a book on this topic alone but briefly I believe the national anthem to be one of the few things (maybe the only thing) that we should all do together as Americans. Despite what some people say, the United States is the greatest country in the world and most people outside the US agree with this and would do almost anything to live in America. I think standing and putting your hand over your heart is not too much to ask of us all to do for a moment in time. A moment where we are all one and there are no factions. That is why I could get behind a one time deal where we still all came together as one but after that I want to go back to standing and tradition. 
 

We could debate whether systemic racism still exists or whether there are just some racists performing bad acts (there is a difference). But that again is a deeper conversation. I don’t think the anthem is the be all end all place to protest if u are on the side that there is systemic racism. There are many other ways and platforms out there and we can still all come together in respect and as one during the anthem for that brief moment in time. 
 

But like many other traditions have faded, I fear that the anthem is next. There seems too eager of a push to accept do whatever u want during the anthem and again I’m not a fan of that. I’m not a fan of people sitting, wearing hats, talking during and many other things during the anthem either so it is not just kneeling. Again, I believe this is one time we should be encouraged to celebrate our country and mourn those who have died for it coming together as one. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by racketmaster

[BillsFan2313]

33 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Sure. Just pointing out that people have the right to a different opinion. Its taxing to see people shame those if they do not conform to others thinking. You even posting a comment on the poll results says it all...dude 

 

Cool, dude. Opinions are opinions, polls or not. I expressed an opinion, did I not? Why are you questioning my opinion? See how this works? 

[SydneyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

I Appreciate your sentiments, and I thank you,  it was a privilege to serve my country.

 

 The owners of our country, yes us citizens, in effect have no constitutional rights if government or business entities can thwart them when ever they feel inclined. The playing field is not level. 

 

Capitalism brings many rewards, and is mostly a good thing,  but greed and power (capitalism’s twin evils) need to be properly regulated for the common good of everyone. Presently the greed and power aspects are out of hand, and those two things are the root cause of our current social unrest. 
 

 

Errr...what?

 

I thought that the excessive force used by a police officer on a black man was the root cause of current social unrest.

 

Where are you getting your news from?

[LABILLBACKER]

I would not only support Sean but applaud him. I will be shocked if the entire Bills team isn't kneeling before the game. I could care less if its before, during or after the anthem. Last I checked the flag also stands for "Liberty and Justice for ALL!. The military doesn't have exclusive rights with regards to the meaning of the flag. Let the movement continue, long overdue.

Edited June 15, 2020 by LABILLBACKER