Grade The Diggs Trade

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Capco said:

I don't understand the A grades.  It's pretty much universally thought that Hopkins is better than Diggs.  If we had gotten Hopkins instead of Diggs, how do you grade that trade?  It'd be off the charts.  

 

A is reserved for the best outcomes.  This wasn't the best outcome.  

But we don’t know what the outcome is

 

 

[Troll Toll]

I gave it a B for a couple reasons:

 

1. An A is reserved for when you clearly got the better end of a deal. Like when we unloaded Dareus.

2. While a good player, he screams 2nd round to me. He doesn’t physically stand out amongst the top NFL receivers. He is a borderline #1 receiver and I think only marginally better than John Brown.

3. That said, I do think he helps this team and is instantly our best receiver.

 

One thing to watch... seems like most people are making big assumptions regarding how high receivers will get drafted. If Lamb is still sitting there when Buffalo would have picked, then this was a bad trade.

[John from Riverside]

7 minutes ago, Troll Toll said:

I gave it a B for a couple reasons:

 

1. An A is reserved for when you clearly got the better end of a deal. Like when we unloaded Dareus.

2. While a good player, he screams 2nd round to me. He doesn’t physically stand out amongst the top NFL receivers. He is a borderline #1 receiver and I think only marginally better than John Brown.

3. That said, I do think he helps this team and is instantly our best receiver.

 

One thing to watch... seems like most people are making big assumptions regarding how high receivers will get drafted. If Lamb is still sitting there when Buffalo would have picked, then this was a bad trade.

What if lamb never becomes as good as diggs

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

29 minutes ago, Jumpsuit Jim said:

Is this true? Not the first part of the post. That part sucks. But the second part of the post - the part that says the assets given up for Diggs equal moving up to the 18th pick. If that is true, then this pick was fabulous. 
 

Why? Because most mock drafts would require a move up to 15 to get Ruggs, the third best receiver in this year’s draft. After Ruggs, the talent level - while still high - drops off to a “Less Than Diggs” level. 
 

so it comes down to this: With Ruggs costing us more to get than us getting Diggs, is Ruggs better than Diggs? Maybe. Probably not. One thing for sure is that Ruggs won’t be better than Diggs right out of the box because the NFL is hard. 
 

Is Diggs as good as Diggs? Yes. Because Stefon Diggs is Diggs. 

 

I feel like the 3 picks have less value than that but that's just me.  5 and 6th round picks dont move the needle and a 4th in 2021 is less valuable than a 4th in 2020.

[BillsDiehard]

Who are the Boomers that graded this a D? Not sure what you want!? Diggs, Brown, Beasley, oh my!

[Dr. Who]

10 minutes ago, Troll Toll said:

I gave it a B for a couple reasons:

 

1. An A is reserved for when you clearly got the better end of a deal. Like when we unloaded Dareus.

2. While a good player, he screams 2nd round to me. He doesn’t physically stand out amongst the top NFL receivers. He is a borderline #1 receiver and I think only marginally better than John Brown.

3. That said, I do think he helps this team and is instantly our best receiver.

 

One thing to watch... seems like most people are making big assumptions regarding how high receivers will get drafted. If Lamb is still sitting there when Buffalo would have picked, then this was a bad trade.

I don't think most folks judge Diggs only marginally better than Brown. If you are correct, it's an overpay. I think he's considerably better and effectively makes everyone better by slotting them into correct roles. Brown is a very good #2, a marginal #1.

2 minutes ago, BillsDiehard said:

Who are the Boomers that graded this a D? Not sure what you want!? Diggs, Brown, Beasley, oh my!

I dunno, is this a shot at the get off my lawn crowd? I just defended the trade, now get off my lawn

[MJS]

Surprised there are no F grades yet. Where are our resident miserly posters hiding?

[Augie]

You know what the great thing is about draft picks? They give you a CHANCE to get a player as good as Diggs. Just a chance. We all know the draft is a crap shoot. Diggs is proven in the league, and on a great contract for the next 4 years. Sure, maybe he gets more in a couple years, but he has little leverage now. 

 

If you point to the Hopkins trade, please tell us all the details from behind the scenes. Were they willing to trade him in the AFC?  Has he got more leverage in his contract situation and planning to ask for possibly DOUBLE what Diggs is getting? I think Hopkins was cheap because they knew what he’d be asking for, especially after the Cooper deal. 

 

I am thrilled at this point. 

[Troll Toll]

2 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

I don't think most folks judge Diggs only marginally better than Brown. If you are correct, it's an overpay. I think he's considerably better and effectively makes everyone better by slotting them into correct roles. Brown is a very good #2, a marginal #1.

Last year they both played 15 games:

Brown had 65 catches, 1003 yards and 7 TDs

Diggs had 63 catches, 1130 yards and 6 TDs

Some would argue Diggs played with the better QB. Watching Diggs’ highlights, Kirk made some deep throws that Josh couldn’t hit last year. That said, this should be the Bills best receiver group since Moulds/Price.

 

[BB2004]

5 hours ago, Bleedbuffaloblue said:

I’d say A-. Solid #1 WR in his prime with a favorable contract situation (4years remaining at a manageable per year cost and no guaranteed money). Would have been only slightly better if no 2021 picks included.

agreed 100%. Completely good with the trade and well worth it but for some reason I’m not a fan of giving up that 4th rounder next year.

[Troll Toll]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

What if lamb never becomes as good as diggs

He has a higher ceiling than Diggs and would be on a rookie contract. Maybe he ultimately won’t be as good as Diggs, but on the surface, if Lamb is somehow there at 22 then it makes the trade for a receiver with attitude problems look highly questionable.

[The Dean]

8 minutes ago, Troll Toll said:

Last year they both played 15 games:

Brown had 65 catches, 1003 yards and 7 TDs

Diggs had 63 catches, 1130 yards and 6 TDs

Some would argue Diggs played with the better QB. Watching Diggs’ highlights, Kirk made some deep throws that Josh couldn’t hit last year. That said, this should be the Bills best receiver group since Moulds/Price.

 

 

 

Some would argue siting stats alone, without a deeper context of their roles, offenses, circumstances, etc, is a rather shallow way to compare two different players from two different teams.

 

Some might, for example, point out that Diggs was either Co-#1 (some argue he was #2) with Thielen while Brown was a clear #1 in the Bills offense in 2019.

 

Some might point out that Diggs was targeted on 94 plays, getting similar results as Brown, who was targeted on 115 plays.

 

Some would definately point out that Diggs has been the more consistent producer of the two, over the years. While Brown had a near career year with the Bills, Diggs (in a year where he had some issues and was deemed unhappy with the Vikes offense) had his second straight 1,000 yard plus season.

[John from Riverside]

24 minutes ago, Troll Toll said:

He has a higher ceiling than Diggs and would be on a rookie contract. Maybe he ultimately won’t be as good as Diggs, but on the surface, if Lamb is somehow there at 22 then it makes the trade for a receiver with attitude problems look highly questionable.

A top 10 receiver with attitude problems

[DCofNC]

24 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

 

Some would argue siting stats alone, without a deeper context of their roles, offenses, circumstances, etc, is a rather shallow way to compare two different players from two different teams.

 

Some might, for example, point out that Diggs was either Co-#1 (some argue he was #2) with Thielen while Brown was a clear #1 in the Bills offense in 2019.

 

Some might point out that Diggs was targeted on 94 plays, getting similar results as Brown, who was targeted on 115 plays.

 

Some would definately point out that Diggs has been the more consistent producer of the two, over the years. While Brown had a near career year with the Bills, Diggs (in a year where he had some issues and was deemed unhappy with the Vikes offense) had his second straight 1,000 yard plus season.

Sane people would be quick to point out Allen over threw WAY more targets that Cousins ever has or will.  Hence, it would take far more targets for anyone to produce with Allen throwing.

 

Also of note, if people would argue Diggs wasn’t the bonafide number one for his team, then WHY would you trade a 1st round pick for him? 

If Diggs was unhappy with his QB and his role in Minn, what makes anybody think it’s going to get better here?  That HAS to be the biggest joke of all this.  He was critical of a middle of the road, solid veteran QB on a winning team, playing in a dome.  Now you put him with Allen, in the elements and in a situation where it’s going to be hard to repeat a winning record?  Doesn’t look like a good move.

 

also, his “reasonable” contract is still $5MM+ more per year than a rookie deal.
 

 

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

A top 10 receiver with attitude problems

He is not top 10, dude wasn’t a number 1 on his own team.

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

What if lamb never becomes as good as diggs

What if he becomes Julio Jones?

3 hours ago, Jumpsuit Jim said:

Is this true? Not the first part of the post. That part sucks. But the second part of the post - the part that says the assets given up for Diggs equal moving up to the 18th pick. If that is true, then this pick was fabulous. 
 

Why? Because most mock drafts would require a move up to 15 to get Ruggs, the third best receiver in this year’s draft. After Ruggs, the talent level - while still high - drops off to a “Less Than Diggs” level. 
 

so it comes down to this: With Ruggs costing us more to get than us getting Diggs, is Ruggs better than Diggs? Maybe. Probably not. One thing for sure is that Ruggs won’t be better than Diggs right out of the box because the NFL is hard. 
 

Is Diggs as good as Diggs? Yes. Because Stefon Diggs is Diggs. 

Check the chart, 4th next year is devalued a round.  You don’t know what will happen in the draft and Diggs was a low pick, so how can your evaluation be a logical one?

Edited March 18, 2020 by DCofNC

[The Dean]

14 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Sane people would be quick to point out Allen over threw WAY more targets that Cousins ever has or will.  Hence, it would take far more targets for anyone to produce with Allen throwing.

 

Also of note, if people would argue Diggs wasn’t the bonafide number one for his team, then WHY would you trade a 1st round pick for him? 

?

 

 

I didn't realize it was impossible for a team to have multiple players of great talent, at the same position. How could I be so naive?

[John from Riverside]

54 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Sane people would be quick to point out Allen over threw WAY more targets that Cousins ever has or will.  Hence, it would take far more targets for anyone to produce with Allen throwing.

 

Also of note, if people would argue Diggs wasn’t the bonafide number one for his team, then WHY would you trade a 1st round pick for him? 

If Diggs was unhappy with his QB and his role in Minn, what makes anybody think it’s going to get better here?  That HAS to be the biggest joke of all this.  He was critical of a middle of the road, solid veteran QB on a winning team, playing in a dome.  Now you put him with Allen, in the elements and in a situation where it’s going to be hard to repeat a winning record?  Doesn’t look like a good move.

 

also, his “reasonable” contract is still $5MM+ more per year than a rookie deal.
 

 

He is not top 10, dude wasn’t a number 1 on his own team.

What if he becomes Julio Jones?

Check the chart, 4th next year is devalued a round.  You don’t know what will happen in the draft and Diggs was a low pick, so how can your evaluation be a logical one?

You seriously are not getting it

 

- WIDELY considered to be one of the best if not THE best route runner in the NFL

- Your talking about what ifs for a rookie player who has not played a DOWN in the NFL.....every single one of these WR's could bust....Justin Jefferson could end up being the best WR out of this draft in the end.....look at what happened with Sammy Watkins.

 

Your trying to take what ifs and make them into real time now facts.   It just doesnt cumpute.

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, The Dean said:

 

 

I didn't realize it was impossible for a team to have multiple players of great talent, at the same position. How could I be so naive?

Neither one is a top WR, both just good.  Great is reserved for those that actually are.  As Parcels said, “if you have 2, you don’t have one”

39 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

You seriously are not getting it

 

- WIDELY considered to be one of the best if not THE best route runner in the NFL

- Your talking about what ifs for a rookie player who has not played a DOWN in the NFL.....every single one of these WR's could bust....Justin Jefferson could end up being the best WR out of this draft in the end.....look at what happened with Sammy Watkins.

 

Your trying to take what ifs and make them into real time now facts.   It just doesnt cumpute.

You are the one not getting it, the guy is a borderline #1 and you want to crown the Bills as making a great deal.  He is An AVERAGE starter, not a star. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by DCofNC

[The Dean]

2 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Neither one is a top WR, both just good.  Great is reserved for those that actually are.  As Parcels said, “if you have 2, you don’t have one”

 

Despite being a good coach, Parcells said a lot of stupid stuff over the years.  This ranks close to the top of that list. 

[Just Joshin']

8 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Neither one is a top WR, both just good.  Great is reserved for those that actually are.  As Parcels said, “if you have 2, you don’t have one”

 

It is hard to take your POV seriously when you apply a quote on QBs to WRs. 

[DCofNC]

1 minute ago, Just Joshin' said:

It is hard to take your POV seriously when you apply a quote on QBs to WRs. 

Same principal, if you have two who people think are #1s, but neither are top 10 at their position, you don’t have a #1.

[The Dean]

5 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Same principal, if you have two who people think are #1s, but neither are top 10 at their position, you don’t have a #1.

 

 

Total drivel. The 49ers had Montana and Young. Too bad neither was good enough to be a #1 QB

 

Stop with the "wise man" quotations. They mean NOTHING.

 

EDIT: I should add, Parcells remark (specifically about QBs) was likely saying a team needed to DECLARE a starting QB and stick with him. Using multiple QBs rarely works out in the NFL. But multiple WRs are on the field all the time. If you really wanted to question Diggs ability to be a true #1 WR (whatever that means, these days), you might want to see how often he was doubled covered, as opposed to Thielen (or another WR on the team). Not just looking for meaningless out-of-context quotations.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by The Dean

[DCofNC]

1 minute ago, The Dean said:

 

 

Total drivel. The 49ers had Montana and Young. Too bad neither was good enough to be a #1 QB

 

Stop with the "wise man" quotations. They mean NOTHING.

 

 

Montana was a HOF player and THE BEST at his position, Young was the heir apparent.  The comparison holds zero weight because guess what, they had 1 and Montana was the clear one until age was in question and Young took over.  Use your Corona vacation to get educated in logic big guy. 
 

Neither Diggs nor Theilen is considered a top WR in the NFL no matter how hard you homers try to spin it.  A guy averaging 72 catches, 12.7 ypc and 6 TD is what you would consider a first round bust.  Guys like that are walking around in FA, in fact the Bills signed that guy last year, John Brown. 
 

I remember why I stopped coming here, so much homerism and no reality.

[947]

Guys need to understand that we weren't getting Jeudy or Ruggs without giving up two 1st rounders. And even if we did that, there's no guarantee that they'll be as good as Diggs, plus it'd take them 2 years to get there if they did. 

 

At 22, we'd have been looking at Tee Higgins at best.

 

Either way, Diggs for #22 & change is our best bet, and our window to strike is now.

Edited March 18, 2020 by 947

[JESSEFEFFER]

I do not have a clear understanding of why he was not happy with the Vikings.  Because the offense became more run focused?  Without knowing how well he fits within the team culture, I can't see it as a slam dunk A.  He is what the offense needed and is more likely to deliver than any rookie would be.  I just wonder why he'd be happier as a Bill than what he appeared to be as a Viking and that could make a big difference in how well the trade actually plays out.

[Locomark]

The people that grade this one a D would be the same ones who would complain about the taxes if they win the Megamillions. Just saying..

[akm0404]

A. Obviously. 

[John from Riverside]

54 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Neither one is a top WR, both just good.  Great is reserved for those that actually are.  As Parcels said, “if you have 2, you don’t have one”

You are the one not getting it, the guy is a borderline #1 and you want to crown the Bills as making a great deal.  He is An AVERAGE starter, not a star. 

Not crowning anyone anything......we need to see

 

But I tell you right now......to crown college WR's coming into the NFL as being better before they play an NFL down is seriously folly

[Troll Toll]

3 hours ago, The Dean said:

 

 

Some would argue siting stats alone, without a deeper context of their roles, offenses, circumstances, etc, is a rather shallow way to compare two different players from two different teams.

 

Some might, for example, point out that Diggs was either Co-#1 (some argue he was #2) with Thielen while Brown was a clear #1 in the Bills offense in 2019.

 

Some might point out that Diggs was targeted on 94 plays, getting similar results as Brown, who was targeted on 115 plays.

 

Some would definately point out that Diggs has been the more consistent producer of the two, over the years. While Brown had a near career year with the Bills, Diggs (in a year where he had some issues and was deemed unhappy with the Vikes offense) had his second straight 1,000 yard plus season.

My original point that Diggs was a marginally better version of Brown was based on watching both of them. They are both somewhat smaller and faster, but not Tyreek Hill blazers. They are strong route runners with reliable mitts. Diggs has better after the catch ability. They are well rounded, but not physically dominating. They are respected, but don’t strike fear in opposing DBs for that reason. The stats merely back up the visual. Diggs is still a far cry from top guys of the past few years like Julio and Michael Thomas. 

[rayray808]

we finally have a top WR in the league... we could have given up pick #10 and this still would be an A

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

The Atlantic graded it a C for Buffalo, A+ for Minnesota.

 

Atlantic?  Did you mean Athletic?  ?‍♂️

[vincec]

It's a great move IF Josh steps up his game. Otherwise it's a waste or worse, possibly a headache, if Diggs starts complaining the way he did in Minnesota.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

17 minutes ago, vincec said:

It's a great move IF Josh steps up his game. Otherwise it's a waste or worse, possibly a headache, if Diggs starts complaining the way he did in Minnesota.

 

Josh has stepped up his game.  He'd reduced many of his mistakes. 

 

Brown stepped up the game last season, Beasley also helped. 

Beyond that 

Duke Williams

Andre Roberts

Robert Foster

Ray-Ray McCloud

Nick Easley

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Tight End's 

Dawson Knox, Tyler Kroft, Lee Smith, Jason Croom, Tommy Sweeney and Nate Becker

 

Nothing great came out of that group. Sure some of them had a very good game here or there, but not consistently. 

 

And then there's Daboll's game plans . Who the hell calls for a play on 4th and 15 when you are in FG range in the playoffs? 

 

[Bob in STL]

Bills get a true #1 that is just reaching prime and has a good contract. 
 

Let’s play some football, then grade it.  

[billsbackto81]

I give it a B+ if Diggs doesn't honor his current contract and wants a redo.

 

An A  if he does honor it. The compensation seems right. We were never getting Hopkins and I'm sure Beane inquired. O'Brien maybe clueless but he's not clinically insane, I think?

 

Radio jocks are already playing the over/ under game as to by what game Diggs starts bitchin about Josh's accuracy and not getting the ball to him on time.

[WideRightRevenge]

At first on heels of Texans stupid trade of Hopkins .. thought WOOAHH ... way too much.  Now after reading more ... the 5th and 6th were really extra picks from (Bodine / Teller) .. the 4th in 2021 is comp pick for Lawson ... let's call the 6th & 7th exchange fungible ... so we spent a #1 on a proven STUD WR vs. crap shoot draft pick (see list of failed #1 WR picks in recent years) ... Yep .. that's a A in my book.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

A grade of B+ would be appropriate 

[BarleyNY]

17 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Would you trade the equivalent of Pick 18 for Diggs?

 

If you think their SB window is open this year then - Yes.

 

This was the move I wanted them to make... 

 

 

This is the kind of move I wanted them to make too.  On the picks though, that package doesn’t even get you to 20.  Maybe if the team trading back is really motivated and knows they can slide for the same player they were taking at 20 anyway, but that would be very rare.  I’ve harped on this in my “trade up for Lamb” posts, but I’ll say it again.  We need difference makers on offense and #1 WR is our biggest skill position hole.  This move accomplished what pick 22 wasn’t going to: acquiring a difference making #1 WR who is ready to be that kind of player out of the gate.  Finding an elite player at 22 is rare.  Finding an elite WR at 22 in any given draft is pretty much impossible.  And expecting that player to be elite from day 1 is the stuff of Disney films.  Beane really did an excellent job here.  I still graded it a B because I think we got close to exactly what we needed and paid a fair price for it.  My nitpicks are that I’d have preferred a bigger WR with no locker room concerns.  I reserve my A grades for near perfect fits and/or bargains. Still, this is damn close to that.  I’ll take this every day. 

[Peace Frog]

I graded it a B only because of the 4th we give up next year.

[DCofNC]

38 minutes ago, WideRightRevenge said:

At first on heels of Texans stupid trade of Hopkins .. thought WOOAHH ... way too much.  Now after reading more ... the 5th and 6th were really extra picks from (Bodine / Teller) .. the 4th in 2021 is comp pick for Lawson ... let's call the 6th & 7th exchange fungible ... so we spent a #1 on a proven STUD WR vs. crap shoot draft pick (see list of failed #1 WR picks in recent years) ... Yep .. that's a A in my book.

The 4th is not a comp pick, those have not even been thought of yet and at this point the Bills have signed more than they have lost, so no comps coming at all.

14 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

This is the kind of move I wanted them to make too.  On the picks though, that package doesn’t even get you to 20.  Maybe if the team trading back is really motivated and knows they can slide for the same player they were taking at 20 anyway, but that would be very rare.  I’ve harped on this in my “trade up for Lamb” posts, but I’ll say it again.  We need difference makers on offense and #1 WR is our biggest skill position hole.  This move accomplished what pick 22 wasn’t going to: acquiring a difference making #1 WR who is ready to be that kind of player out of the gate.  Finding an elite player at 22 is rare.  Finding an elite WR at 22 in any given draft is pretty much impossible.  And expecting that player to be elite from day 1 is the stuff of Disney films.  Beane really did an excellent job here.  I still graded it a B because I think we got close to exactly what we needed and paid a fair price for it.  My nitpicks are that I’d have preferred a bigger WR with no locker room concerns.  I reserve my A grades for near perfect fits and/or bargains. Still, this is damn close to that.  I’ll take this every day. 

Diggs was a 5th rounder, how is finding a WR at 22 “impossible”?  Michael Thomas was a 2nd round pick, out performed Diggs best year as a rookie.  Just saying, that argument is nonsense.