Bills trade for Diggs - jw no discussions on a restructure

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Let me know when he misses games, much less because he wants more guaranteed money and not because he wants the football more.

 

 

That's a different question doc.  I already answered your first one.

[John from Riverside]

7 minutes ago, ngbills said:

I am usually on the opposite end of this thing when the Bills dont make the trade. Saying exactly what you said - if we can get player xyz you take that over the unknown draft pick. And I am usually met with - This FO values draft picks, too much talent in the draft, thats not how you build a team, etc etc.

 

I was clamoring at the trade deadline to add a WR or pass rusher. I dont know how many people said we arent giving up a draft pick. I think many of those were specifically talking about Diggs and Hopkins. 

I cant even compare the Hopkins thing....I think their GM was drunk binging and just did the most stupid thing he could possibly do just cuz.

 

The diggs trade was more in reality....you gotta give up something in order to get soemthing.

 

Sometimes you just have to be in the right place at the right time with enough assets to get something done....which is what I think happened with Diggs.  How often do teams really get a true number 1 receiver in his prime get away?   Look at how much cooper ended up getting from Dallas....it was like TWICE AS MUCH

[BuffaLoko]

20 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

It's not just the 1st it's also a 4th, 5th and 6th. If it was for #22 alone I'd be less pissed.

Yes Mr Jokeman, and your (if exists) draft picks value chart, or scout data for rookie WRs, should be way better

than the one´s in BB´s staff possession, ?

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The Bills still have a 5th and 2-6ths.  If people think there's some HOF'er waiting to be picked in the 5th and/or 6th round, they still have a shot at him/them...

I think ppl look at what Beane was able to do with those picks last year.....it netted us a NFL DE who at the very least is good enough to be in a rotation and a solid TE in Sweeney

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

That's a different question doc.  I already answered your first one.

 

That's not even close to "quitting."

[Mat68]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

The Bills still have a 5th and 2-6ths.  If people think there's some HOF'er waiting to be picked in the 5th and/or 6th round, they still have a shot at him/them...

Correct.  I think the scouting department has done great on late picks.  No visits, not pro days due to the virus imo alters their belief in knowing guys that could fit.  I assume they have a handful of guys but this isnt the year to snag 6 plus day 3 players.

[3rdand12]

30 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Well then, he'd have that in common with Diggs.

 

 

So you'd be fine trading away the Bills' 1st and 2nd rounder this year to get Jeudy or Ruggs (Lamb and Ruggs or Jeudy will go before pick 14)?  Because that's what it will take. 

 

Oh and Diggs is a top-10 WR.

Yep !

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think ppl look at what Beane was able to do with those picks last year.....it netted us a NFL DE who at the very least is good enough to be in a rotation and a solid TE in Sweeney

 

Actually, Sweeney and Johnson were 7th rounders.  But in any case, like I said above, they still have a 5th and 2-6th to get players.

 

3 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Correct.  I think the scouting department has done great on late picks.  No visits, not pro days due to the virus imo alters their belief in knowing guys that could fit.  I assume they have a handful of guys but this isnt the year to snag 6 plus day 3 players.

 

And if there are a bunch of talented guys in the 5th and 6th round, just trade down in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th rounds.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Doc

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Sweeney and Johnson were 7th rounders.  But in any case, like I said above, they still have a 5th and 2-6th to get players.

Sorry I left out the last part of my post.  PPL should not expect a GM to be able to hit on strarting NFL caliber players in those rounds EVERY draft.   What beane did last year was pure wizardry

[ColoradoBills]

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The Bills still have a 5th and 2-6ths.  If people think there's some HOF'er waiting to be picked in the 5th and/or 6th round, they still have a shot at him/them...

 

I'm hoping for a Diggs 2.0 in the 5th.

John Brown - 30 years old

Diggs - 26 years old

Rookie - 22ish

 

Nice age ladder for the WR group!

[Mat68]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Actually, Sweeney and Johnson were 7th rounders.  But in any case, like I said above, they still have a 5th and 2-6th to get players.

 

 

And if there are a bunch of talented guys in the 5th and 6th round, just trade down in the 2nd, 3rd or 4th rounds.

Right.  22 was a spot that I thought they would trade down or up.

[Motor26]

Watching Diggs film. Loving it. Runs such crisp routes and catches everything thrown near him. 

[daz28]

The NFL is cutting back a lot on padded practices.  Maximum number in TC goes from 28 to 16.  During the season it's 14 max.  This will be a factor in the development of rookie WR's as their development sometimes takes a few seasons.  Add in the fact that SD is only 26, and there's not a good chance that a WR picked at #22 may not even have his ceiling it makes it seem like a pretty good deal.  If the contract was bad I'd be concerned, but before his contract ends, he will likely be well outside the top 30 WR's.  My concern is that Josh won't be able to get him the ball.  I'm not as big on his speed separation as most, and Josh will have to trust just popping it in there.  The guy runs full speed with his head on a swivel like no other, so Josh will just have to trust him and his adjustments to the ball.

[qwksilver]

2 hours ago, BobChalmers said:

• Report post
•  

Posted 2 hours ago (edited)

20 hours ago, qwksilver said:

And that's why we'll probably have to re-up the contract....

 

Interesting question - Diggs does have FOUR YEARS left right?, which would make it pretty crazy precedent to renegotiate so soon.

I don't think they re-do it tomorrow but he's making peanuts in comparison to others. So he'll get a raise way before the contract ends. Hopefully I'm wrong as that makes this trade even better.

[947]

What if we had traded #22 & next years 1st to move up & grab CeeDee Lamb? Would anybody really rather have that over Diggs for #22 & a couple late picks?

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

you really, really should move on. The fact that you characterize the deal as “giving picks away” speaks volumes. Giving something away usually means you received nothing in return, at least nothing of value. That couldn’t be further from the truth in this case. So please, yes, move on. 

what a terrible post.  You have your shiny object just look at it and marvel some more. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by mattynh

[Warcodered]

 

[JimKellyTryouts]

7 minutes ago, 947 said:

What if we had traded #22 & next years 1st to move up & grab CeeDee Lamb? Would anybody really rather have that over Diggs for #22 & a couple late picks?

 

That would cost two firsts like Watkins as opposed to just one this year, though. I love Lamb, but he's unproven and would need time to develop as opposed to getting an immediate #1

[akm0404]

Everything you need to know about Diggs is that he caught 1130 yards last year in an offense that literally refused to throw the ball. They made our old “ground and pound” offense look like the greatest show on turf. 
 

Heck Cousins started the season with an 8 completion for 90something yard gem. 
 

I’m not expecting the Bills become a top-10 passing offense next year, but the Bills now have one of the best receiving corps in the league. 
 

They undisputedly have the best WR in the AFC East (and QB and RB *smile*)

 

Let yourself feel the waves of happiness wash over you for today is not the day for misery. 

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

That's too much to give up for a guy with no guarantee of hitting.  Been there, done that.  I was resigned to the Bills either taking the best )4th or 5th) WR left or going DE at 22.  This is much better.

Eh that's the draft. I want blue chippers on offense we had none

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Eh that's the draft. I want blue chippers on offense we had none

 

Of course, same here.  I just don't want to give up multiple high draft picks to get one.  And they didn't.

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Of course, same here.  I just don't want to give up multiple high draft picks to get one.  And they didn't.

we got Diggs!!!!

[Vicarious_Fan16]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

'04, LOL maybe I graduated with your parents!

 

lol my dad was 78 and my mom was either 82 or 83

[BananaSquad]

Amazing amazing trade. Diggs is gonna have a top 5 season. 

[JoPoy88]

48 minutes ago, mattynh said:

what a terrible post.  You have your shiny object just look at it and marvel some more. 

Terrible how chief? Because I quoted you accurately? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, mattynh said:

They didn't mortgage the draft because they still have 7 picks?  There is no first round pick left, they gave up #22 plus 3 other picks.  That #22 is an impact player that is a bargain for 4 years with a 5th year option.  Arizona got a better player for a #2.  I would have preferred not giving up a #1.  I dont think its all that relevant how many they had, they earned those...you dont go around giving away picks because you have extra.   I think the compensation was too much but I like the player.  I will move on, nothing I can do.

 

 

"Giving away" something implies one got nothing in return. 

We didn't get nothing, we got a legit proven NFL talent at WR who is fully developed and signed for 4 years.

As others have pointed out, various draft value charts indicate the picks we gave are roughly equal in value to 1st round Pick #18.

 

I covet DeAndre Hopkins.  I think he is a better WR than Diggs, and I like Diggs too.  That said:

1) Arizona did not get a better player for a #2.  They got a better player for a #2 plus David Johnson, who has been a legit RB who can also catch when healthy.  Now what draft pick that player equates to, can't tell you (I'm sure it amounts to less than a 1st round pick).

2) It is a better deal overall, but again, as others have pointed out, No Way was Houston gonna deal Hopkins within the AFC.

3) Apparently Hopkins has been super-loud about wanting a new deal for more $$$

 

You might want to use every pick, but Beane has been up-front for months that he felt if we used all our late round picks, we'd be drafting guys who might not make the roster which he doesn't like to do.  The writing was on the wall that he was going to package them and use them to move around and/or trade.

 

9 hours ago, GG said:

The other math is to the Hopkins trade.  Diggs' equivalent is Texans #2 pick plus the last pick in the 2nd round.  Is David Johnson worth that difference?

 

I'm not following this.

[Vicarious_Fan16]

please please please stop trying to compare these 2 WR trades. It's not possible since the Texans might have been hosed but they were never trading to another AFC team and if by some miracle they didnt care about that they ask for devin s and probably more draft picks then we gave the vikings 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Vicarious_Fan16

[GG]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

I'm not following this.

 

Ignoring the later picks, comparing the value of what the Bills gave up for Diggs vs what AZ gave up for Hopkins is #22 vs #40 and David Johnson.   Another way to look at it is, pick #22 is equal to picks #40 and #63.5.   Is David Johnson worth that difference for Texans to drop from #22 to #40?

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

That's not even close to "quitting."

lol ok doc

[The Dean]

2 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Ignoring the later picks, comparing the value of what the Bills gave up for Diggs vs what AZ gave up for Hopkins is #22 vs #40 and David Johnson.   Another way to look at it is, pick #22 is equal to picks #40 and #63.5.   Is David Johnson worth that difference for Texans to drop from #22 to #40?

 

What you are saying is, AZ got a better deal from Houston than the Bills did from Minny, right?

 

So?

 

One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other. 

 

Plus AZ gave up a productive player. The Bills gave up draft choices---most of which they can fairly easily recover if they think they need them.

 

 

[Vicarious_Fan16]

2 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Ignoring the later picks, comparing the value of what the Bills gave up for Diggs vs what AZ gave up for Hopkins is #22 vs #40 and David Johnson.   Another way to look at it is, pick #22 is equal to picks #40 and #63.5.   Is David Johnson worth that difference for Texans to drop from #22 to #40?

 

you literally  can't compare the value with the Hopkins trade. The Texans obviously over value David Johnson by a mile or they have been hitting the cold syrup to hard. They are also never shipping Hopkins to a team in the afc unless some team makes it rain with draft picks

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, GG said:

Ignoring the later picks, comparing the value of what the Bills gave up for Diggs vs what AZ gave up for Hopkins is #22 vs #40 and David Johnson.   Another way to look at it is, pick #22 is equal to picks #40 and #63.5.   Is David Johnson worth that difference for Texans to drop from #22 to #40?

 

To BOB, yes. 

 

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

lol ok doc

 

Right back at ya.

[Fred Slacks]

AZ is also paying David Johnson’s contract this season. It’s a large cap number. 
 

I may be mistaken but I believe that was a big part of the trade. 
 

houston was unloading Hops contract and getting a RB on a low cap number this season because AZ is paying it. Something along those lines. 

[MJS]

3 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

I'm not sure what Wawrow's point is here.  Digg's is under contract for 4 more years?  Why before he has done one thing in a Bills uniform?

 

Is he getting at an extension to lower the cap hit/year?

There was a previous report that his deal would be restructured, so he is probably dispelling rumors.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Mat68 said:

At 22 who is the dynamic edge?  Who is the bookend OT.  The top Wrs will surely be gone, the versitle hybrid defenders will be gone.  For a while now I thought 22 was really no mans land.  Basiclly, paying rd 1 money for a day 2 player. 

I agree with this.  I think you have to get up to 15 or so to get a special player.   The Bills were going to get a good player, no doubt, but not a guy who was likely to be an impact player from day one.  Where'd they get Ford - at 30?   Why'd they trade up to get Edmunds?   Because he wouldn't last into the 20s.  

 

It didn't seem likely that the Bills had enough capital to trade up into the mid-teens or better.   So I wasn't expecting a star player in the draft.  Diggs will be better out of the gate, no question.  

[stevewin]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Your math is wrong.  53 players, 46 active is the number.  Not the total Camp Bodies numbers.  You can fill camp bodies with UDFA too.

 

Beane even said we dont have enough roster spots for all the draft picks.  Beane was not going to draft 10 players in this years draft and was always going to use them as capital to move around.

 

No one said those late picks dont have value, clearly they do or teams wouldn't trade for them.  But people freaking out are severely over valuing them.  Some one will name one Pro Bowler taken in those glossing over the thousands who didn't make it in the NFL.  I mean Brady was a 6th round pick...does anyone really believe trying to find your QB of the future in the later rounds is a sound strategy to find a franchise QB?  No, but yes it can happen.  

 

Those rounds usually help identify depth and ST players, all things we got plenty of at most positions right now.  Sure there are places to upgrade, but honestly, what we need more than anything is top end talent, not mid tier or role players who we got tons of.  So using some of the EXTRA capital we had to find ST and depth guys, we were able to land a top 10 player at a major area of need.  Everyone should love this move.  

 

And most importantly, we had extra picks in those rounds and still have all of our own picks in this draft except our first (which was essentially Diggs).  People are so hung up on the number of picks that its making them think it was expensive.  Yet most of those same people wanted us to trade up and get Juedy or Lamb, which would have actually been MORE expensive than getting Diggs as we likely had to trade up to 13 or 14 to insure we got one, and the very least to 16.  Our compensation we paid on Diggs was equivalent of only moving up to 18.  But guess what else, no one would have taken back a 5th, 6th, and next years 4th to trade back in the first round.  We would have actually had to use LESS picks, but MORE valuable picks to make any move inside the first round.

 

This is why everyone is baffled by those who are really upset over compensation.  Most wanted something that would have cost us MORE for an UNPROVEN rookie who likely odds are would not end up as good as Diggs anyway based on hit rates in the first round.  

 

 

This is an excellent post.  The other point that the late round pick hand-wringers are completely missing is Beane was never going to use those extra 5th and 6th roumd picks to draft players in this draft.  Never.  They were acquired as draft captital exclusively to use to trade for targeted players.  

 

The other thing i think that people are missing with Beane is that he is not hung up on what the perceived chart value of a trade is.  His MO is to get draft captital to make moves, and use what it takes to get the guy he wants.  The extra picks were stockpiled for that purpose, and that's what he used them for.  Same as what he did to get Josh.

Edited March 18, 2020 by stevewin

[Motor26]

2 minutes ago, stevewin said:

This is an excellent post.  The other point that the late round pick hand-wringers are completely missing is Beane was never going to use those extra 5th and 6th roumd picks to draft players in this draft.  Never.  They were acquired as draft captital exclusively to use to trade for targeted players.  

 

The other thing i think that people are missing with Beane is that he is not hung up on what the perceived chart value of a trade is.  His MO is to get draft captital to make moves, and use what it takes to get the guy he wants.  The extra picks were stocked for that purpose, and that's what he uses them for.

The Bills needed elite talent. Weren’t gonna get it at 22, and definitely not with the day 3 picks. They got that elite talent in Diggs.

[GG]

38 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

What you are saying is, AZ got a better deal from Houston than the Bills did from Minny, right?

 

So?

 

One has nothing whatsoever to do with the other. 

 

Plus AZ gave up a productive player. The Bills gave up draft choices---most of which they can fairly easily recover if they think they need them.

 

 

 

No, all I'm doing is providing another benchmark to compare the relative compensation.  There was a lot of crying that Bills gave up a 1st round pick and AZ gave up a 2nd round pick for a starting receiver.  I provided more quantitative context to gauge the trade values.  In the end, it's a question of whether David Johnson is worth the difference between #22 and #40? 

[The Dean]

8 minutes ago, GG said:

 

No, all I'm doing is providing another benchmark to compare the relative compensation.  There was a lot of crying that Bills gave up a 1st round pick and AZ gave up a 2nd round pick for a starting receiver.  I provided more quantitative context to gauge the trade values.  In the end, it's a question of whether David Johnson is worth the difference between #22 and #40? 

 

As these are four different teams, involved in two different trades, i'm not sure any of the details in one is relevant to the other. If they are, than ALL the details (contracts info for example) need to come into play. 

 

I agree AZ got a better deal for Hopkins than the Bills did for Diggs. Doesn't make the Diggs trade worse in any way.

 

EDIT: Actually I should say, Houston got a worse deal than the Vikings. Still doesn't make any difference for the Bills/Vikes deal.

Edited March 18, 2020 by The Dean

[Bronxbomber21]

Looks like a process kinda guy