PSLs in Atlanta

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

https://www.ajc.com/sports/football/defaults-top-million-some-falcons-fans-struggle-with-psls/dlUNjpHXptU5edyPJGKNLM/

 

[machine gun kelly]

This is what concerns me with a new Bills stadium as so many owners do PSL’s for a new stadium, and many pay it as the team may be doing well, and eventually they default and plan goes away when the team is not doing well, or the economy turns negative.

 

An example is I can’t remember the year, but when Ray Jay in Tampa was built blowing up the Sombrero, one year PSL’s started and was a 10 year investment.  At the conclusion of those 10 years, that money would be attributed to the cost of season tickets.  This was during the Dungy/Gruden years, and as the economy turned in 2008, and the team was going south, people gave up their PSL’s in droves.  Normally Tampa fairs well economically given the increased industry and very low to nothing in corporate taxes trying to get companies to relocate South, and across FL, it worked with low unemployment, but as we all know 2008 hit everyone and hard.

 

Im not trying to make this a political economic strategy, but just giving one of the reasons the PSL’s went from a huge Poster the size of Ray Jay promoting a wait list of 80,000 for PSL’s to them discontinuing the program after people left in droves.  They have been at an all time low for years in season tickets without the PSL’s.

 

My concern is for my Buffalo friends who live there and have seasons don’t get out priced with these PSL’s.  I just can’t see that working in Buffalo, but many teams building stadiums do it, and even without PSL’s, you can be assured as many are concerned those prices will go up.  I love flying up with the kids and with adult family and friends going to two games which is not cheap.

 

I hope I didn’t take this sideways, I just read that article and all I could think about is the impact on Buffalo in two years.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

PSL concept—ok, you want me to first purchase this package over here for the right to pay you more for season tix later...got it, sounds like I’m coming out ahead! 

 

With Atlanta being such a transplant hub of folks moving here from out of state, I’ve always felt like the Falcons don’t engender the type of “hometown” enthusiasm that most NFL franchises would take for granted, again, just imho. I’ve never once had anyone say a negative word to me around town whilst rocking an Allen jersey or other Bills gear—quite the opposite in fact. Contrast with the Pittsburgh or Philly markets where that would paint a bulls eye...now college football however? That’s a totally different deal down here. You will get looked at sideways for wearing the wrong school jersey.  

[Mike in Horseheads]

I just read about this in the NY Post . They trash PSL's at every opportunity and point out how the Jets and Giants "waiting list" dried up with them.

 

Atlanta Falcons patrons have defaulted on more than $32 million of PSL purchases. Another town to learn that Roger Goodell’s claim that PSLs are “good investments” was bogus.

 

[Captain Hindsight]

If PSLs were required to get seasons in Buffalo, I would be out so quickly. Tickets are expensive enough and if had to pay another 5k for the right to pay another couple thousand dollars, I honestly wouldn't even consider it. 

 

With how many years I've had to eat hundreds of dollars on the secondary market when the team has been bad or the weather sucks, I can't think of a worse investment than PSLs

[Cruiserplayer]

 

Vic Carucci

 

@viccarucci

 

The #NFL no longer seems to be pushing for a new stadium for the #Bills. A "significant renovation' of New Era Field is also acceptable to the league, per Commissioner Roger Goodell.

[row_33]

Ralph took a bath on potential income to keep the team in Buffalo

 

 

 

 

 

 

[corta765]

PSL's have only had moderate success and by success I mean not been an utter disaster in Cleveland and Pittsburgh. But the cost was far more modest compared to the newer stadiums where your paying ridiculous amounts for the right to actually buy your seats.

 

My idea if they want some sort of fan investment would be a ticket tax instead. Lets say your wanted to raise 75 million for the stadium over 15 years. Spread that cost over the 15 years and it works out to about 5 million needed per season. The Bills have around 71,000 seats-ish and over 8 regular season games it breaks down to about $9 extra per ticket. Again not great fans are paying more, but it is far more logical and would face less opposition as opposed to PSL which would never fly. If you include pre season games in this equation which season tickets holders have to pay for and the STH base is around 50k you could cut the tax a little lower to $7 per ticket.

 

Again this is just an idea on better ways to generate revenue in no way am I endorsing this

[Greg S]

10 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I just read about this in the NY Post . They trash PSL's at every opportunity and point out how the Jets and Giants "waiting list" dried up with them.

 

Atlanta Falcons patrons have defaulted on more than $32 million of PSL purchases. Another town to learn that Roger Goodell’s claim that PSLs are “good investments” was bogus.

 

 

 

Even though I am a Bills fan(OJ was my favorite player growing up) I live 20 minutes from MetLife. My Dad was (passed away 2003) a huge Jets fan and bought seasons during Namath's rookie season. I have the tickets now and I have 2 seats.  At Giants Stadium they were $75 a ticket. For both $150 a game times 10 games is $1500. Parking was 20 a game times 10 games = $200. Total cost at Giants Stadium was $1700 per year.

 

At MetLife my tickets are $125 a piece. So $250 x 10 games = 2500. My PSL fee is $5000 per seat so that is $10,000. Parking pass is $20 a game so that totals $200 for the year. Total cost at Met Life $2500 for the tickets, $200 for parking, $1000 a year for 10 years for the PSL = $3700 per year.

 

A $2000 increase for the same service $1700 vs $3700 from Giants Stadium to MetLife for me. I forgot to mention the Jets are charging me interest on my PSL fee because I can't pay it off in one shot. Like everyone else other expenses come first mortgage, taxes, kids college and so on.

 

The NYC market is obviously different then the Buffalo market but make no mistake the Pegula's will make the season ticket holders pay one way or another. Enjoy the time at Rich, Ralph, New Era because it is a great football stadium where the real fans can still show up. Many Jets/Giants fans got priced out and now they get the business crowd. Neither team has a real homefield advantage anymore. The funny part is every Jets/Giants fan I have talked to hates MetLife. It sucks and everyone misses Giants Stadium. I would take Shea back over MetLife and Shea was a dump.

[Mike in Horseheads]

6 minutes ago, Greg S said:

 

 

Even though I am a Bills fan(OJ was my favorite player growing up) I live 20 minutes from MetLife. My Dad was (passed away 2003) a huge Jets fan and bought seasons during Namath's rookie season. I have the tickets now and I have 2 seats.  At Giants Stadium they were $75 a ticket. For both $150 a game times 10 games is $1500. Parking was 20 a game times 10 games = $200. Total cost at Giants Stadium was $1700 per year.

 

At MetLife my tickets are $125 a piece. So $250 x 10 games = 2500. My PSL fee is $5000 per seat so that is $10,000. Parking pass is $20 a game so that totals $200 for the year. Total cost at Met Life $2500 for the tickets, $200 for parking, $1000 a year for 10 years for the PSL = $3700 per year.

 

A $2000 increase for the same service $1700 vs $3700 from Giants Stadium to MetLife for me. I forgot to mention the Jets are charging me interest on my PSL fee because I can't pay it off in one shot. Like everyone else other expenses come first mortgage, taxes, kids college and so on.

 

The NYC market is obviously different then the Buffalo market but make no mistake the Pegula's will make the season ticket holders pay one way or another. Enjoy the time at Rich, Ralph, New Era because it is a great football stadium where the real fans can still show up. Many Jets/Giants fans got priced out and now they get the business crowd. Neither team has a real homefield advantage anymore. The funny part is every Jets/Giants fan I have talked to hates MetLife. It sucks and everyone misses Giants Stadium. I would take Shea back over MetLife and Shea was a dump.

The Post has been all over the PSL "Investment scam" for years and you just laid it out exactly like they did. Well done.

...Another one they like to point out is New Yankee Stadium and how nobody can afford to sit in the "Moat" around the field. Yankees always tell them that the fans are inside eating. One writer did a example showing that it was cheaper to fly to Seattle, get a seat behind home plate, pay for a hotel and food then it was to sit behind home plate at the new stadium

[aristocrat]

23 minutes ago, Cruiserplayer said:

 

Vic Carucci

 

@viccarucci

 

The #NFL no longer seems to be pushing for a new stadium for the #Bills. A "significant renovation' of New Era Field is also acceptable to the league, per Commissioner Roger Goodell.

 

boom get it done. problem solved

[Greg S]

6 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

The Post has been all over the PSL "Investment scam" for years and you just laid it out exactly like they did. Well done.

...Another one they like to point out is New Yankee Stadium and how nobody can afford to sit in the "Moat" around the field. Yankees always tell them that the fans are inside eating. One writer did a example showing that it was cheaper to fly to Seattle, get a seat behind home plate, pay for a hotel and food then it was to sit behind home plate at the new stadium

 

It's crazy and going to Yankees Stadium is also expensive.  I prefer to watch the Yanks from the comfort of my home. Traveling from NJ into the Bronx is a hassle as well.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Greg S

[Happy]

18 minutes ago, corta765 said:

PSL's have only had moderate success and by success I mean not been an utter disaster in Cleveland and Pittsburgh. But the cost was far more modest compared to the newer stadiums where your paying ridiculous amounts for the right to actually buy your seats.

 

My idea if they want some sort of fan investment would be a ticket tax instead. Lets say your wanted to raise 75 million for the stadium over 15 years. Spread that cost over the 15 years and it works out to about 5 million needed per season. The Bills have around 71,000 seats-ish and over 8 regular season games it breaks down to about $9 extra per ticket. Again not great fans are paying more, but it is far more logical and would face less opposition as opposed to PSL which would never fly. If you include pre season games in this equation which season tickets holders have to pay for and the STH base is around 50k you could cut the tax a little lower to $7 per ticket.

 

Again this is just an idea on better ways to generate revenue in no way am I endorsing this

 

This is a good idea.  I never understood why people pay PSL fees just for the right to purchase season tickets.  People may complain initially about a $7-9 ticket increase but they'll get over it.  I believe the Bills tickets are among the cheapest in the league, that is probably going to move more toward the average price -- one way or the other.

[Augie]

I live in Atlanta and had heard rumors the Falcons were still here. I don’t know anyone who has been to a game since the new stadium opened, but I’ll take this as confirmation that they are still in town.

 

Meanwhile, UGA, Georgia Tech, Auburn, Alabama and even Georgia Southern are well represented around town. Growing up in WNY I had no idea it could be like this! 

 

I have commitment issues, so I don’t think PSL’s would be up my alley.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, Augie said:

I live in Atlanta and had heard rumors the Falcons were still here. I don’t know anyone who has been to a game since the new stadium opened, but I’ll take this as confirmation that they are still in town.

 

Meanwhile, UGA, Georgia Tech, Auburn, Alabama and even Georgia Southern are well represented around town. Growing up in WNY I had no idea it could be like this! 

 

I have commitment issues, so I don’t think PSL’s would be up my alley.

 

 

Um, Augie, um, I was with you at a game at that stadium. Have you seen a doctor lately?

[Augie]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Um, Augie, um, I was with you at a game at that stadium. Have you seen a doctor lately?

 

And that was when the new stadium opened. I know the STADIUM is still there, because I’ve been there several times.......for soccer. AWESOME experience! Much more juice than a Falcons game. 

 

The Falcons are an afterthought in Atlanta. They got a little attention when they got to the Super Bowl, but have a weak season and most people forget they exist. It’s a town of transplants and nobody really cares about them. 

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, Augie said:

 

And that was when the new stadium opened. I know the STADIUM is still there, because I’ve been there several times.......for soccer. AWESOME experience! Much more juice than a Falcons game. 

 

The Falcons are an afterthought in Atlanta. They got a little attention when they got to the Super Bowl, but have a weak season and most people forget they exist. It’s a town of transplants and nobody really cares about them. 

I know. I was just kidding

[Augie]

 

I’ll be there again if the Bills are back, but won’t go to a Falcons game unless it’s free and the Bills aren’t on TV. 

 

I think most of the people there that day who were NOT BIlls fans just wanted to see the new stadium. 

 

.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Augie

[SF Bills Fan]

In San Francisco with the new Chase Center, the PSLs are expensive but the holder of the PSL gets paid back after like 30 years, so the fans are basically giving the Warriors a no interest loan. 

[Kirby Jackson]

16 minutes ago, SF Bills Fan said:

In San Francisco with the new Chase Center, the PSLs are expensive but the holder of the PSL gets paid back after like 30 years, so the fans are basically giving the Warriors a no interest loan. 

That was the perfect storm for them. The Warriors coming off of this historic run and opening the new arena in SF. 

[DrDawkinstein]

22 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

And that was when the new stadium opened. I know the STADIUM is still there, because I’ve been there several times.......for soccer. AWESOME experience! Much more juice than a Falcons game. 

 

The Falcons are an afterthought in Atlanta. They got a little attention when they got to the Super Bowl, but have a weak season and most people forget they exist. It’s a town of transplants and nobody really cares about them. 

 

I was just going to say.. They should have added a small PSL to United Season Tickets. Split the PSL revenue between Falcons and United. The United are the hottest ticket in town since none of us transplants had a previous home-town Soccer team.

[iinii]

PSLs are a sham.

[PromoTheRobot]

3 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

If PSLs were required to get seasons in Buffalo, I would be out so quickly. Tickets are expensive enough and if had to pay another 5k for the right to pay another couple thousand dollars, I honestly wouldn't even consider it. 

 

With how many years I've had to eat hundreds of dollars on the secondary market when the team has been bad or the weather sucks, I can't think of a worse investment than PSLs

 

Tickets are cheap compared to most of the NFL. 

1 hour ago, iinii said:

PSLs are a sham.

 

Well you could argue they are a user fee on those who will use the stadium most. Better than a broad-based tax, no?

[LabattBlue]

2 hours ago, iinii said:

PSLs are a sham.

Nope.  They are a successful business strategy as long as there are fans willing to sign on the dotted line of the PSL contract. 
 

They are not going away anytime soon. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by LabattBlue

[Captain Hindsight]

13 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Tickets are cheap compared to most of the NFL. 

 

 

Just because a product is more expensive elsewhere doesn't make it any less of a burden on me when I buy it here

[PromoTheRobot]

35 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Just because a product is more expensive elsewhere doesn't make it any less of a burden on me when I buy it here

 

Then you are making the case that Buffalo, as a market, can't support an NFL team.  Let's face it. This is the league's issue with Buffalo. They want 32 Dallases and New Englands.

[nucci]

4 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

This is what concerns me with a new Bills stadium as so many owners do PSL’s for a new stadium, and many pay it as the team may be doing well, and eventually they default and plan goes away when the team is not doing well, or the economy turns negative.

 

An example is I can’t remember the year, but when Ray Jay in Tampa was built blowing up the Sombrero, one year PSL’s started and was a 10 year investment.  At the conclusion of those 10 years, that money would be attributed to the cost of season tickets.  This was during the Dungy/Gruden years, and as the economy turned in 2008, and the team was going south, people gave up their PSL’s in droves.  Normally Tampa fairs well economically given the increased industry and very low to nothing in corporate taxes trying to get companies to relocate South, and across FL, it worked with low unemployment, but as we all know 2008 hit everyone and hard.

 

Im not trying to make this a political economic strategy, but just giving one of the reasons the PSL’s went from a huge Poster the size of Ray Jay promoting a wait list of 80,000 for PSL’s to them discontinuing the program after people left in droves.  They have been at an all time low for years in season tickets without the PSL’s.

 

My concern is for my Buffalo friends who live there and have seasons don’t get out priced with these PSL’s.  I just can’t see that working in Buffalo, but many teams building stadiums do it, and even without PSL’s, you can be assured as many are concerned those prices will go up.  I love flying up with the kids and with adult family and friends going to two games which is not cheap.

 

I hope I didn’t take this sideways, I just read that article and all I could think about is the impact on Buffalo in two years.

Ralph Wilson said PSLs would never work in Buffalo

[stuvian]

We have reached peak football. I didn't know the Steelers were having a hard time getting PSL commitments 

[Orlando Tim]

4 hours ago, corta765 said:

PSL's have only had moderate success and by success I mean not been an utter disaster in Cleveland and Pittsburgh. But the cost was far more modest compared to the newer stadiums where your paying ridiculous amounts for the right to actually buy your seats.

 

My idea if they want some sort of fan investment would be a ticket tax instead. Lets say your wanted to raise 75 million for the stadium over 15 years. Spread that cost over the 15 years and it works out to about 5 million needed per season. The Bills have around 71,000 seats-ish and over 8 regular season games it breaks down to about $9 extra per ticket. Again not great fans are paying more, but it is far more logical and would face less opposition as opposed to PSL which would never fly. If you include pre season games in this equation which season tickets holders have to pay for and the STH base is around 50k you could cut the tax a little lower to $7 per ticket.

 

Again this is just an idea on better ways to generate revenue in no way am I endorsing this

Similar idea but more palatable to me- you do the PSL with up front payment of 10k but you lock I cost to PSL holder for lifetime or like 20 years of them holding seats. 

[iinii]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Tickets are cheap compared to most of the NFL. 

 

Well you could argue they are a user fee on those who will use the stadium most. Better than a broad-based tax, no?

Yes in that regard but buyer beware. To me they are more or less like a timeshare. 

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

Nope.  They are a successful business strategy as long as there are fans willing to sign on the dotted line of the PSL contract. 
 

They are not going away anytime soon. 

You are right about one thing. There is a sucker born every minute. 

[DrDawkinstein]

30 minutes ago, stuvian said:

We have reached peak football. I didn't know the Steelers were having a hard time getting PSL commitments 

 

It is truly market saturation and why the NFL is working so hard to expand out of the country.

[iinii]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1147108-why-personal-seat-licenses-are-killing-football-for-the-average-nfl-fan.amp.html
 

Broken down quite simply, a personal seat license is the dumbest purchase you will ever make: a payment that allows you to pay for something else you want. But in at least 15 NFL stadiums, it is a necessary purchase if you want to spend eight glorious days of the year rooting for the home team.

[4_kidd_4]

30 minutes ago, stuvian said:

We have reached peak football. I didn't know the Steelers were having a hard time getting PSL commitments 

 

I think you’re onto something here. I think there’s an overall sense of ‘fatigue’ from NFL overstimulation.

 

It used to be a fall to winter thing and now it’s in your face 12 months of the year. It used to be a sunday  afternoon thing, with a feature matchup on monday. Now we have sunday night, monday night, thursday night and even sometimes saturdays.

 

The games themselves are so drawn out and the pace is just killed by all the timeouts. The at home experience gets more appealing every year too.

[row_33]

13 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

I think you’re onto something here. I think there’s an overall sense of ‘fatigue’ from NFL overstimulation.

 

It used to be a fall to winter thing and now it’s in your face 12 months of the year. It used to be a sunday  afternoon thing, with a feature matchup on monday. Now we have sunday night, monday night, thursday night and even sometimes saturdays.

 

The games themselves are so drawn out and the pace is just killed by all the timeouts. The at home experience gets more appealing every year too.

 

appealing or appalling

 

 

[corta765]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Then you are making the case that Buffalo, as a market, can't support an NFL team.  Let's face it. This is the league's issue with Buffalo. They want 32 Dallases and New Englands.

I agree with your premise although I wouldn't say the league wants 32 Dallas or NE's. I do think the NFL wants all teams exploring and utilizing as many avenues as possible to increase revenue and in the case of Buffalo there is much left on the table right now. The Raiders moved to Vegas and created new lanes of money. Vegas won't be a top grossing franchise but they increased their lanes. 

 

Buffalo fans need to face the fact the lanes will have to increase at some point and at least the Pegula's seem smart enough to not force something dumb like PSL's and will consider renovations over a new stadium. But it will cost more regardless and the NFL will want more options for families because they produce more revenue then singular fans.

49 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

Similar idea but more palatable to me- you do the PSL with up front payment of 10k but you lock I cost to PSL holder for lifetime or like 20 years of them holding seats. 

 

So basically I pay 5k for a PSL but lets say it then guranatees 5 years of season tickets at $1500 for a pair with no price increase? Is that what your saying

[DrDawkinstein]

14 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

 

I think you’re onto something here. I think there’s an overall sense of ‘fatigue’ from NFL overstimulation.

 

It used to be a fall to winter thing and now it’s in your face 12 months of the year. It used to be a sunday  afternoon thing, with a feature matchup on monday. Now we have sunday night, monday night, thursday night and even sometimes saturdays.

 

The games themselves are so drawn out and the pace is just killed by all the timeouts. The at home experience gets more appealing every year too.

 

Plus, the on-field product flat out sucks.

 

You talk about fatigue from overstimulation, and while I definitely agree, at the same time I could (and do) watch College Football on Thursday Nights, Friday Nights, ALL day Saturday and anytime else it is on and never get burnt out on it. Because the on-field product is far more entertaining. More diverse teams with different schemes instead of every team doing the same thing. And far better officiating, or at least refs that dont look like they are trying to fix games.

 

The NFL cant even define a catch, nor get PI calls right even on replays without the refs revolting. It's just becoming a garbage league because of bad leadership.

[swimtoga]

NFL will do what they did with the Cheats and turn the Falcons into a dynasty. Kelly Bryant will be the next Brady even though he couldn’t beat out Trevor Lawrence like Brady couldn’t beat Drew Hanson at Michigan. People will say he is the GOAT with only looking at the ends and not the means.

[KD in CA]

5 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I just read about this in the NY Post . They trash PSL's at every opportunity and point out how the Jets and Giants "waiting list" dried up with them.

 

Atlanta Falcons patrons have defaulted on more than $32 million of PSL purchases. Another town to learn that Roger Goodell’s claim that PSLs are “good investments” was bogus.

 

 

$32m out of $293m is an 11% default rate.  I would have guessed it was higher.  Then factor in the ability to resell the same seat and it seems like the program is operating just the way the NFL had hoped.

 

PSLs are essentially a way to have the fans contribution to the cost of a new stadium.  I'd rather that than taxpayers paying that $300m.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, SF Bills Fan said:

In San Francisco with the new Chase Center, the PSLs are expensive but the holder of the PSL gets paid back after like 30 years, so the fans are basically giving the Warriors a no interest loan. 

.....or......you can just roll it into your PSA for the new Google Center, scheduled to open in 2047!

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by KD in CA

[Mike in Horseheads]

4 hours ago, Augie said:

 

And that was when the new stadium opened. I know the STADIUM is still there, because I’ve been there several times.......for soccer. AWESOME experience! Much more juice than a Falcons game. 

 

The Falcons are an afterthought in Atlanta. They got a little attention when they got to the Super Bowl, but have a weak season and most people forget they exist. It’s a town of transplants and nobody really cares about them. 

Is there any pro sport that Atlanta really cares about? They lost hockey, The Hawks always have empty seats, the Braves can't sell out playoff games and now your saying the Falcons are a afterthought.

[PromoTheRobot]

53 minutes ago, iinii said:

Yes in that regard but buyer beware. To me they are more or less like a timeshare. 

 

 

An excellent analogy.