Lamar Jackson scores 2 points in the Precision Passing Pro-Bowl Skills Competition.

[njbuff]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Mahomes would have been JA 2.0 if here with McD &Daboll....  They'd have no comprehension of who they had & may still have started Peterman ahead of him......?

That’s why I will NEVER bash McDermott for passing on Mahomes.

[apuszczalowski]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Is this the same guy who is exactly .500 as NFL starting QB? 7th in careers yards is going to quickly fall to about 17th in about 10 years as the current group of QB's continues playing. Eli is one of the first QB's to benefit from the change to a passing league. That is why he is retiring 7th for now. But he will be passed up by a number of guys over the next 10 years or so.

 

Had at least one of Eli's two Super Bowl runs been  Joe Flacco like in terms of carrying his team i would put more weight in his HOF candidacy. As it is, his numbers were below average compared to his peers and he lost as many games as he won. How does that make a HOFer? I mean the postseason shouldn't be the end all be all when it comes to the HOF. And again, he didn't carry his team in any of those two postseason runs. 

So now wins matter for a QB? Thought that was a team stat?

[apuszczalowski]

16 minutes ago, njbuff said:

That’s why I will NEVER bash McDermott for passing on Mahomes.

So you wouldn't bash McDermott for not being able to recognize football ability of a QB and scheme for them?

[Teddy KGB]

18 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

NEWS FLASH:  Lamar Jackson jokes don't make Josh Allen better. 

 

 

NEWS FLASH : you are allowed to make posts that don’t disparage Allen 100% of the time.   

[njbuff]

Just now, apuszczalowski said:

So you wouldn't bash McDermott for not being able to recognize football ability of a QB and scheme for them?

 

See my posts about this subject.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

This shouldn't be a debate because the Bills were NOT taking a QB if they stayed at 10.  Chicago should, and does catch alot of hell for what they did in that draft because they missed Mahomes and Watson.

 

The Bills, hired Mc D on month before the draft and didn't fire Whaley until the draft was over.  Mc D KNEW going into the 2017 Draft he was NOT going to take a QB high, that he hadn't scouted, or had input from the new GM on.

 

It will never be looked at correctly, but what Mc D did, going into 2017 draft, with QB off the board, was a make an A+ rated trade under the circumstances. 

 

Considered within the context of the moment, Mc D, was able to trade back, get an all pro CB, and an extra 1st and 3rd which he and Bean then converted in some way shape or form into more impact players in 2018.  It was actually a hell of a successful deal for the Bills.

 

ONLY if the Bills were committed to drafting a QB in 2017, should this be looked on as a fail.  If anyhthing the Pegulas hiring schedule may have kept the Bills out of the QB market in 2017, but the fact remains...prior to the 2017 draft, Buffalo was not going to be drafting a QB.....once you've determined you aren't taking one, the Bills did absolutely the best they possibly could have.

 

It's a shame they get blasted by the lazy media as being "the team that passed Mahomes".  the Bills weren't that team.  That was  the Bears, Browns, Jets, Niners, Titans, Bengals.....in fact its incredible how little crap the Bengals, picking at 9, one pick in front of the Bills/KC at 10, get for taking John Ross instead of Mahomes.

 

History won't be kind to Buffalo for this because they happened to be the team that made the trade.

 

Wrong by reason of false premise.

 

The Bills hired McDermott in mid-January.........standard procedure.

 

They weren't taking a QB because they were trying to be clever by not announcing Beane so they could have access to Carolina's scouting info.......which naturally did not include much on QB's because the Panthers had a QB a year removed from being league MVP.   

 

It was an ill fated plan...........much like hiring Rick Dennison as OC and changing a successful offense and deciding that big, lumbering WR's were the wave of the future.

 

The Bills #1 need by a long shot was a QB..........MUCH moreso than Kansas City.......everyone knew it........they didn't even have otherwise specific crying needs going into that draft.

 

Bottom line is that it's standard procedure to hire a GM and HC in the same offseason and address QB in the draft right away........you don't punt on big decisions just because you only had 4 months to prepare.

 

McD and The Pegs thought they were being clever by doing it differently and they missed out on two franchise QB's as a result.

 

It's a reason......not a good excuse.........it was all about choices made and the fact that they were very unorthodox AND wrong makes them look exceptionally dumb.

[Zerovoltz]

12 minutes ago, njbuff said:

That’s why I will NEVER bash McDermott for passing on Mahomes.

 

.........if Josh Allen was destined to be who he is now because he has McDermott as coach and Bean as GM...and the OC, players, city, uniform and all that, then WHY bother to draft him?  I hate this argument.  You are suggesting that if JA was drafted by the Bears, he would suck, but if he were in KC, he'd be throwing 50 TD's and for 5000 yards because of coaching and the situation.

 

If that were the case, then Andy Reid did some of his WORST coaching between 2013 and 2017 because he sure as hell couldn't get Alex Smith to do it with the same system, with Kelce, with Hill....and Smith even had the benefit of Kareem Hunt leading the NFL in rushing and he STILL couldn't do it.   KC shouldn't have bothered to trade for Smith I guess....because Reid could have just kept rolling with Matt Cassel and schemed and coached that guy into 50 and 5000 I suppose.

 

Speaking of Cassel....he took over a Patriots team that was coming off a 16-0 regular season, that had Randy Moss and Gronk, and Wes Welker..all the same guys Brady had...and Cassel went 11-5 with that squad.  Moss's numbers were way down from the year before (but amazingly, Welker, the slant/possession guy had almost identical numbers!) ....Belichick must have had an off year coaching because clearly, the player and their talent and abilty don't matter....it's the organization.  That squad carried Cassel to 11 wins, not Cassel carrying them.

 

Mahomes would be great wherever he went.....

[LSHMEAB]

2 hours ago, Rico said:

Great article. I can’t imagine Big Ben ever playing shortstop though.

I'd say MAYBE third base, but man. Gonna make pitcher's VERY angry with those routine balls down the line turning into doubles.

[njbuff]

12 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

.........if Josh Allen was destined to be who he is now because he has McDermott as coach and Bean as GM...and the OC, players, city, uniform and all that, then WHY bother to draft him?  I hate this argument.  You are suggesting that if JA was drafted by the Bears, he would suck, but if he were in KC, he'd be throwing 50 TD's and for 5000 yards because of coaching and the situation.

 

If that were the case, then Andy Reid did some of his WORST coaching between 2013 and 2017 because he sure as hell couldn't get Alex Smith to do it with the same system, with Kelce, with Hill....and Smith even had the benefit of Kareem Hunt leading the NFL in rushing and he STILL couldn't do it.   KC shouldn't have bothered to trade for Smith I guess....because Reid could have just kept rolling with Matt Cassel and schemed and coached that guy into 50 and 5000 I suppose.

 

Speaking of Cassel....he took over a Patriots team that was coming off a 16-0 regular season, that had Randy Moss and Gronk, and Wes Welker..all the same guys Brady had...and Cassel went 11-5 with that squad.  Moss's numbers were way down from the year before (but amazingly, Welker, the slant/possession guy had almost identical numbers!) ....Belichick must have had an off year coaching because clearly, the player and their talent and abilty don't matter....it's the organization.  That squad carried Cassel to 11 wins, not Cassel carrying them.

 

Mahomes would be great wherever he went.....

 

Why do I have to beat a dead horse constantly?

 

In short, Mahomes and Reid are the perfect marriage, McDermott and Mahomes are not.

 

I don't care how good Mahomes is (I said in 2016 he was going to be a great pro), but if he came to Buffalo when they had NOTHING in 2017 (the entire offensive roster has been gutted since then)......................

 

he would have been up against it with ZERO to work with here. Even though I think he would be great, he can't/couldn't carry a talentless Bills offense by himself.

 

Mahomes got hurt behind a quality KC line............. what would have happened in Buffalo?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And why is he so good?????  Because a well thought out  offensive scheme has receivers running open & often easy passes to uncovered players as they focus on Lamar.  Yep he made some tough passes, but also the right one's into very loose coverage.

 

Oh, without a doubt, the offensive scheme plays a huge role in the degree of his success, but it still doesn't work without Lamar's ability to execute it. 

I'm simply responding to folks bashing Lamar or claiming he can't pass.  He can. 

 

He's a young QB.  He's got some gaps in his game that he filled last off season, and some others that still need work.    Now there are people who believe that a QB can't improve, or can't improve past his 2nd year or whatever, that's their viewpoint.  I happen to believe that he can and he will.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

32 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

.........if Josh Allen was destined to be who he is now because he has McDermott as coach and Bean as GM...and the OC, players, city, uniform and all that, then WHY bother to draft him?  I hate this argument.  You are suggesting that if JA was drafted by the Bears, he would suck, but if he were in KC, he'd be throwing 50 TD's and for 5000 yards because of coaching and the situation.

 

If that were the case, then Andy Reid did some of his WORST coaching between 2013 and 2017 because he sure as hell couldn't get Alex Smith to do it with the same system, with Kelce, with Hill....and Smith even had the benefit of Kareem Hunt leading the NFL in rushing and he STILL couldn't do it.   KC shouldn't have bothered to trade for Smith I guess....because Reid could have just kept rolling with Matt Cassel and schemed and coached that guy into 50 and 5000 I suppose.

 

Speaking of Cassel....he took over a Patriots team that was coming off a 16-0 regular season, that had Randy Moss and Gronk, and Wes Welker..all the same guys Brady had...and Cassel went 11-5 with that squad.  Moss's numbers were way down from the year before (but amazingly, Welker, the slant/possession guy had almost identical numbers!) ....Belichick must have had an off year coaching because clearly, the player and their talent and abilty don't matter....it's the organization.  That squad carried Cassel to 11 wins, not Cassel carrying them.

 

Mahomes would be great wherever he went.....

 

I Can't Even. 

 

It seems pretty evident that a lot of factors go into a team's offensive performance, including the design of the offense, the appropriateness of the gameplan and playcalling for each opponent, the quality of the OL, the quality of the skill players, and the quality of the QB.

 

Alex Smith had a career year in 2017 with Kelce and with Hill and it wasn't close.  He was given more offensive talent, and he exploited it to the degree that his own talent as a QB allowed him to.  Mahomes is a higher quality QB who was able to take a quality scheme with talented players and elevate them to a next level.   Would Mahomes talent still be evident if he were, say, dropped into the Bengals offense or the Miami Dolphins offense?  Undoubtedly, but do you really believe he'd be putting up "great" MVP record setting numbers?   I think it's pretty clear that the answer would be "no".   Even proven, HOF quality QBs like Brees and Rodgers have "off" seasons where they're not able to execute as well when the talent around them is depleted.

 

I really hate these reductio ad absurdum type screeds.  Do you honestly think anyone believes that offensive scheme and coaching are all that matters?  Is pointing out that they DO matter in any way shape or form the same thing as making that claim?  Do you really want to try to argue that the quality of the rest of the talent on offense doesn't matter?

 

 

 

 

[Zerovoltz]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I Can't Even. 

 

It seems pretty evident that a lot of factors go into a team's offensive performance, including the design of the offense, the appropriateness of the gameplan and playcalling for each opponent, the quality of the OL, the quality of the skill players, and the quality of the QB.

 

Alex Smith had a career year in 2017 with Kelce and with Hill and it wasn't close.  He was given more offensive talent, and he exploited it to the degree that his own talent as a QB allowed him to.  Mahomes is a higher quality QB who was able to take a quality scheme with talented players and elevate them to a next level.   Would Mahomes talent still be evident if he were, say, dropped into the Bengals offense or the Miami Dolphins offense?  Undoubtedly, but do you really believe he'd be putting up "great" MVP record setting numbers?   I think it's pretty clear that the answer would be "no".   Even proven, HOF quality QBs like Brees and Rodgers have "off" seasons where they're not able to execute as well when the talent around them is depleted.

 

I really hate these reductio ad absurdum type screeds.  Do you honestly think anyone believes that offensive scheme and coaching are all that matters?  Is pointing out that they DO matter in any way shape or form the same thing as making that claim?  Do you really want to try to argue that the quality of the rest of the talent on offense doesn't matter?

 

 

 

 

 

Hapless, I agree with you....I could have been better about making my point....wich isn't to say situation and roster don't matter....they DO.  Quite a bit.  The idea Mahomes would be JA 2.0 is absurd.  Even if you think the air raid is garbage, Mahomes took a TON of snaps in college and completed 63% or better of his passes, and didn't have very many INTS at all, especially considering the number of attempts he had.....Of course Mahomes landed in the absolute best spot with a ready made roster around him.  I'm not denying that.  What bothers me is that people (not just bills fans....Bears fans do this all the time)  ....saying....oh well.....it doesn't matter....Mahomes would suck if he were on X team.  I don't believe that at all.  At some point you have to believe talented players can make a difference, even if the coach isn't that great etc (look at Desean Watson...he overcomes a bad coach)

 

I'm not saying at all, that Mahomes would have ever been 50/5000 in Buffalo in 2018, but he'd have made the guys you did have look better...the line would look better...and the offense would have been better.  he's that kind of guy that lifts the whole team up.  On a great team....he sets records and goes to (one so far) super bowls.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

Hapless, I agree with you....I could have been better about making my point....wich isn't to say situation and roster don't matter....they DO.  Quite a bit.  The idea Mahomes would be JA 2.0 is absurd.  Even if you think the air raid is garbage, Mahomes took a TON of snaps in college and completed 63% or better of his passes, and didn't have very many INTS at all, especially considering the number of attempts he had.....Of course Mahomes landed in the absolute best spot with a ready made roster around him.  I'm not denying that.  What bothers me is that people (not just bills fans....Bears fans do this all the time)  ....saying....oh well.....it doesn't matter....Mahomes would suck if he were on X team.  I don't believe that at all.  At some point you have to believe talented players can make a difference, even if the coach isn't that great etc (look at Desean Watson...he overcomes a bad coach)

 

I'm not saying at all, that Mahomes would have ever been 50/5000 in Buffalo in 2018, but he'd have made the guys you did have look better...the line would look better...and the offense would have been better.  he's that kind of guy that lifts the whole team up.  On a great team....he sets records and goes to (one so far) super bowls.

 

 

Not much I can disagree with here.  Allen was far more raw and less experienced as a draft choice than Mahomes (IMO)**.  No, Mahomes would not have been Josh Allen in Buffalo...but he wouldn't have had anything close to the league-leading record-setting MVP season he had in his 2nd year (1st year starting) either.

 

So I hear you 4x4 on on the "Mahomes would suck if he were on X team".  My gripe is when saying (rationally I think) "he wouldn't have been nearly as good or develop nearly as quickly on X team" is taken to be the same as bashing or saying he would suck.  Bashing, IMO, is what some people have been doing of Lamar Jackson in this thread - saying he can't pass, he's dumber than a box of rocks etc etc - so ignorant.   To me, saying that Mahomes talent added to an offense that was #6 in the league the year before due to talent, coaching, O-line etc would not be the same result as Mahomes talent added to an offense that was bottom-third in the league the year before, lost two of its 3 best OLmen, failed to upgrade at WR and TE, and changed OCs is NOT bashing, it's realism.  I have no doubt that Mahomes would have had a better true rookie year than Allen did in 2018 in Buffalo and his talent would be clear, but the results would be no where near league MVP IMO.

 

I'm not sure I would call Bill O'Brien a "bad coach", but that's another story.  I will acknowledge him as a bit of a "mixed bag", but then I'd say that about Reid as well.....

 

I do covet DeAndre Hopkins, though.

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

16 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

Why do I have to beat a dead horse constantly?

 

In short, Mahomes and Reid are the perfect marriage, McDermott and Mahomes are not.

 

I don't care how good Mahomes is (I said in 2016 he was going to be a great pro), but if he came to Buffalo when they had NOTHING in 2017 (the entire offensive roster has been gutted since then)......................

 

he would have been up against it with ZERO to work with here. Even though I think he would be great, he can't/couldn't carry a talentless Bills offense by himself.

 

Mahomes got hurt behind a quality KC line............. what would have happened in Buffalo?

Yep would have had Mahomes to Watkins in 2017.  McD would have turned a transcendent QB & made him a mediocre/above average QB & game manager.....  17 points & time to shut it down.....?

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, without a doubt, the offensive scheme plays a huge role in the degree of his success, but it still doesn't work without Lamar's ability to execute it. 

I'm simply responding to folks bashing Lamar or claiming he can't pass.  He can. 

 

He's a young QB.  He's got some gaps in his game that he filled last off season, and some others that still need work.    Now there are people who believe that a QB can't improve, or can't improve past his 2nd year or whatever, that's their viewpoint.  I happen to believe that he can and he will.

And we'll wait and see.  As said he created such havoc in the backfield and than there are open receivers.  

 

You would think Daboll could do that with Allen..

Edited January 27, 2020 by Billsfan1972

[Zerovoltz]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not much I can disagree with here.  Allen was far more raw and less experienced as a draft choice than Mahomes (IMO)**.  No, Mahomes would not have been Josh Allen in Buffalo...but he wouldn't have had anything close to the league-leading record-setting MVP season he had in his 2nd year (1st year starting) either.

 

So I hear you 4x4 on on the "Mahomes would suck if he were on X team".  My gripe is when saying (rationally I think) "he wouldn't have been nearly as good or develop nearly as quickly on X team" is taken to be the same as bashing or saying he would suck.  Bashing, IMO, is what some people have been doing of Lamar Jackson in this thread - saying he can't pass, he's dumber than a box of rocks etc etc - so ignorant.   To me, saying that Mahomes talent added to an offense that was #6 in the league the year before due to talent, coaching, O-line etc would not be the same result as Mahomes talent added to an offense that was bottom-third in the league the year before, lost two of its 3 best OLmen, failed to upgrade at WR and TE, and changed OCs.  I have no doubt that Mahomes would have had a better true rookie year than Allen did in 2018 in Buffalo and his talent would be clear, but the results would be no where near league MVP IMO.

 

I'm not sure I would call Bill O'Brien a "bad coach", but that's another story.  I will acknowledge him as a bit of a "mixed bag", but then I'd say that about Reid as well.....

 

I do covet DeAndre Hopkins, though.

 

 

 

I think we are pretty much on the same page here.  I didn't present my point well. 

 

As far as Lamar....I remember pre draft, you were really doing your homework on the guy and posted quite a bit that you were in on him.  Credit to you.  I didn't think he'd be a success.  I would NOT say he sucks at all.  He led the leauge in Passing TD's, ran for more yards than a QB ever has...he's electric and he executed the offense they have in Baltimore about as well as it could executed.  That is not a player who SUCKS. 

 

Bill Obrien.......no need to have that debate, but since I brought it up....O brien should get credit for getting some really bad QB's to the playoffs and winning some divisions with less than average QB's.  They did it.  He led them to it.  His ideas and system were suited to make that happen.  Where I think he's bad is that he seems unwavering in his ideas about his system/what a QB should be.  I think theres more juice he could be getting out of that offense if he would adapt, and in the end that teams ceiling is capped at wild card round playoff team because of it. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'd call it conservative........go back and watch his highlights from 2018 when he put up 50 TD passes..........very little classic west coast drop back where the ball comes out on time and lots of egregiously poor mechanics like crossed feet on drops.    Obviously an incredible amount of his plays come outside of the pocket and bootlegs are part of the traditional WCO but the way operates outside of the pocket his feet and shoulders can be anywhere at release..........which definitely isn't the way Joe Montana did it.

 

@dave mcbride linked a story above about the connection between QB's and shortstop play.....................it might be time to accept the fact that there are going to be players out there for whom classic mechanics aren't necessary...........in the same way that we have come to accept that there are players like Steph Curry and James Harden who defied convention as shooters in basketball and now we aren't even surprised to see players who excel despite what are perceived as traditionally unsound technique.

 

I completely accept that Mahomes has an unreal ability to make accurate off platform throws and I'd seen that article connecting SS play and QB play before.

 

I just don't agree that it's over 75% of his throws, and the highlight film kind of doesn't address that.  Even Mahomes doesn't throw 75% highlights.  And at the risk of being accused of "bashing" Mahomes, sometimes when he does make those off-platform throws or throws with bad footwork, the results aren't so accurate.    Mahomes is ungodly talented, no doubt, but he is also blessed right now with skill players who can adjust on the ball.  And he has made real strides with improving his footwork and making it more consistent.

[artmalibu]

Jackson out performed by two non-QBs in a throwing accuracy competition... ?

[Phil The Thrill]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:08 AM, ChevyVanMiller said:

Man, that's brutal. It will be interesting to see next year when teams follow the Buffalo/Tennessee model and stack the box and make him try to beat you with throws outside. 

I wouldn’t put much stock into this competition.  How many QB’s could make every throw but take a dump when it comes to a game situation?  Lamar’s kind of the opposite of that.

 

I do agree that he is limited to throwing outside of the  numbers 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yep would have had Mahomes to Watkins in 2017.  McD would have turned a transcendent QB & made him a mediocre/above average QB & game manager.....  17 points & time to shut it down.....?

 

 

In 2017, we actually had a reasonable OL and a good run game.  As you mention, if we'd have hung on to Watkins instead of trading him away in early August and inadequately trying to replace him with Kelvin Benjamin at the end of October so that Mahomes actually had someone to throw to, he might have been able to do something on the Bills.

 

2018, Not So Much.

[formerlyofCtown]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:08 AM, ChevyVanMiller said:

Man, that's brutal. It will be interesting to see next year when teams follow the Buffalo/Tennessee model and stack the box and make him try to beat you with throws outside. 

Apparently his speed and elusiveness did not intimidating the wooden board.

11 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

Hapless, I agree with you....I could have been better about making my point....wich isn't to say situation and roster don't matter....they DO.  Quite a bit.  The idea Mahomes would be JA 2.0 is absurd.  Even if you think the air raid is garbage, Mahomes took a TON of snaps in college and completed 63% or better of his passes, and didn't have very many INTS at all, especially considering the number of attempts he had.....Of course Mahomes landed in the absolute best spot with a ready made roster around him.  I'm not denying that.  What bothers me is that people (not just bills fans....Bears fans do this all the time)  ....saying....oh well.....it doesn't matter....Mahomes would suck if he were on X team.  I don't believe that at all.  At some point you have to believe talented players can make a difference, even if the coach isn't that great etc (look at Desean Watson...he overcomes a bad coach)

 

I'm not saying at all, that Mahomes would have ever been 50/5000 in Buffalo in 2018, but he'd have made the guys you did have look better...the line would look better...and the offense would have been better.  he's that kind of guy that lifts the whole team up.  On a great team....he sets records and goes to (one so far) super bowls.

 

I believe Mahomes would elevate the play around him.  That’s what that it factor people talk about is.  Josh is not as polished of a passer as Mahomes but he definitely has that it factor as well.  I’m really excited for the next 10 or more seasons of watching these QBs.

[C.Biscuit97]

Well this thread aged well.  I’m shocked he was given the Pro Bowl MVP after his throwing performance in that competition.  It’s almost like it didn’t matter at all. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 hours ago, Rico said:

Great article. I can’t imagine Big Ben ever playing shortstop though.

 

That does totally strain the imagination.

[Billl]

20 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

Why do I have to beat a dead horse constantly?

 

In short, Mahomes and Reid are the perfect marriage, McDermott and Mahomes are not.

 

I don't care how good Mahomes is (I said in 2016 he was going to be a great pro), but if he came to Buffalo when they had NOTHING in 2017 (the entire offensive roster has been gutted since then)......................

 

he would have been up against it with ZERO to work with here. Even though I think he would be great, he can't/couldn't carry a talentless Bills offense by himself.

 

Mahomes got hurt behind a quality KC line............. what would have happened in Buffalo?

Mahomes dislocated his kneecap on a QB sneak.  It was a freak injury that had nothing to do with his line.

[Bangarang]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well this thread aged well.  I’m shocked he was given the Pro Bowl MVP after his throwing performance in that competition.  It’s almost like it didn’t matter at all. 

If the skills competition figured him out then it’s only a matter of time before the rest of the league does too and he’ll fade away into mediocrity. Then, Allen can take over as the best QB from that draft class. Because that’s really what this is all about. Bills fans will hype Allen to the moon while simultaneously trashing other young QBs including a Heisman and soon to be league MVP QB.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Bangarang

[nucci]

this is so much more important than what he does during the games

[dave mcbride]

On 1/24/2020 at 7:37 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Mahomes could have had a MUCH less productive 2018 and STILL looked "all-world"............so don't pat yourself on the back too much for being a voice of reason.

 

It's a league where there is a guy in the NFC throwing at a 74% completion rate over the last 3 years and still Mahomes is in a class by himself in terms of impact on a team and ability to bring a team back from a deficit etc..

 

For all the talk about what Mahomes wouldn't have done here............there is only one QB in the NFL who could have taken that flawed Chiefs team to a Super Bowl.     

@BADOLBILZ - Check this out re the Chiefs and Mahomes. Three teams had him in their sights: KC, NO, and AZ. https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/01/27/super-bowl-liv-49ers-chiefs-kobe-bryant-eli-manning-mmqb

 

Then, it came time to move. Realistically, the Chiefs figured getting in the top five would be just about impossible, so they focused on figuring out who between six and 15 was a threat. Over a couple of months, and with a lot of information gathering, Veach & Co. ascertained that the Saints and Cardinals were Mahomes’s biggest fans. They were picking 11th and 13th, respectively. And after some fits and starts, the Chiefs pulled on another Reid relationship.

Sitting at 10 were the Buffalo Bills and new head coach, Sean McDermott, a lieutenant of Reid’s for a dozen years in Philadelphia. With an established trust in place, and McDermott leading the football operation in Buffalo, the two coaches worked to hammer out a deal.

After that, the Chiefs just needed him to fall to 10, which Mahomes did. And after that, Veach did get some confirmation that his information was good.

“Listen, it’s only what you hear after the fact,” he said. “And I know that Andy and Sean [Payton] have talked, and Sean said, ‘Hey, you’re lucky you guys took him there or I’d have taken him at 11.’

Edited January 27, 2020 by dave mcbride

[BADOLBILZ]

18 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

@BADOLBILZ - Check this out re the Chiefs and Mahomes. Three teams had him in their sights: KC, NO, and AZ. https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/01/27/super-bowl-liv-49ers-chiefs-kobe-bryant-eli-manning-mmqb

 

Then, it came time to move. Realistically, the Chiefs figured getting in the top five would be just about impossible, so they focused on figuring out who between six and 15 was a threat. Over a couple of months, and with a lot of information gathering, Veach & Co. ascertained that the Saints and Cardinals were Mahomes’s biggest fans. They were picking 11th and 13th, respectively. And after some fits and starts, the Chiefs pulled on another Reid relationship.

Sitting at 10 were the Buffalo Bills and new head coach, Sean McDermott, a lieutenant of Reid’s for a dozen years in Philadelphia. With an established trust in place, and McDermott leading the football operation in Buffalo, the two coaches worked to hammer out a deal.

After that, the Chiefs just needed him to fall to 10, which Mahomes did. And after that, Veach did get some confirmation that his information was good.

“Listen, it’s only what you hear after the fact,” he said. “And I know that Andy and Sean [Payton] have talked, and Sean said, ‘Hey, you’re lucky you guys took him there or I’d have taken him at 11.’

 

 

McD got played like a fiddle.

 

First the guy ***** fired him as DC in Philly and then he turns around steals the NFL's most valuable QB from him.

 

With friends like that.......

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by BADOLBILZ

[dave mcbride]

19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

McD got played like a fiddle.

 

First the guy ***** fired him as DC in Philly and then he turns around steals the NFL's most valuable QB from him.

 

With friends like that.......

 

 

The first part about the Chiefs' scouting process is interesting too. Also, Breer does a quick e v a l of the Bills' decision-making near the end. He's not damning.

[papazoid]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:30 AM, SlimShady'sGhost said:

Is 2 points good or bad?

 

asking for a friend 

 

 

 

good....if followed by the word "conversion"

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

If the skills competition figured him out then it’s only a matter of time before the rest of the league does too and he’ll fade away into mediocrity. Then, Allen can take over as the best QB from that draft class. Because that’s really what this is all about. Bills fans will hype Allen to the moon while simultaneously trashing other young QBs including a Heisman and soon to be league MVP QB.

It’s pretty simple, really.  Your QB will regress with time as teams get more tape on him.  My QB will show logarithmic improvement indefinitely.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The first part about the Chiefs' scouting process is interesting too. Also, Breer does a quick e v a l of the Bills' decision-making near the end. He's not damning.

 

 

Ehh..........that's just math.........Mistortune + Bills = "understandable"

 

It's not a compelling story to bash the afterthought Bills.............nothing to gain except death threats from Bills mafia.

 

Now if Belichick had traded that pick?..........ooooh boy the media would be loving the opportunity to take him down a peg or ten.

 

You gotta' admit though...........there is humor in the fact that McD's mentor has done the two most harmful things to happen to him professionally, though.

[Billsfan1972]

57 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

@BADOLBILZ - Check this out re the Chiefs and Mahomes. Three teams had him in their sights: KC, NO, and AZ. https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/01/27/super-bowl-liv-49ers-chiefs-kobe-bryant-eli-manning-mmqb

 

Then, it came time to move. Realistically, the Chiefs figured getting in the top five would be just about impossible, so they focused on figuring out who between six and 15 was a threat. Over a couple of months, and with a lot of information gathering, Veach & Co. ascertained that the Saints and Cardinals were Mahomes’s biggest fans. They were picking 11th and 13th, respectively. And after some fits and starts, the Chiefs pulled on another Reid relationship.

Sitting at 10 were the Buffalo Bills and new head coach, Sean McDermott, a lieutenant of Reid’s for a dozen years in Philadelphia. With an established trust in place, and McDermott leading the football operation in Buffalo, the two coaches worked to hammer out a deal.

After that, the Chiefs just needed him to fall to 10, which Mahomes did. And after that, Veach did get some confirmation that his information was good.

“Listen, it’s only what you hear after the fact,” he said. “And I know that Andy and Sean [Payton] have talked, and Sean said, ‘Hey, you’re lucky you guys took him there or I’d have taken him at 11.’

McD can't see past his Defense & Offense is an afterthought (necessary evil to give D a breather).  Until proven wrong I will say it over & over.

[BillsfanAZ]

I saw the skills competition and was surprised Jackson couldnt hit anything but the close targets. I knew he wasnt a great passer but figured he would hit some. Even in the probowl game he was off more than he was on. He missed a wide open Landry in the endzone by ten feet. I know they are not trying too hard in the probowl. Even in the regular season he threw up a lot of iffy balls that his receivers and TE's came down with. Probowl Olineman, RB, and TE go a long ways to getting an MVP. 

[Billl]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Ehh..........that's just math.........Mistortune + Bills = "understandable"

 

It's not a compelling story to bash the afterthought Bills.............nothing to gain except death threats from Bills mafia.

 

Now if Belichick had traded that pick?..........ooooh boy the media would be loving the opportunity to take him down a peg or ten.

 

You gotta' admit though...........there is humor in the fact that McD's mentor has done the two most harmful things to happen to him professionally, though.

Reid did him a solid.  If that trade doesn’t go down, McD drafts Lattimore.  It’s a perfectly good pick, and McD still has to listen to the MMQBs complain that Mahomes went one pick later.  Instead, he got an arguably better player at the same position, added a third round pick that year and a first round pick the following year.  The Bills pulled of one of the three best drafts that year.  Possibly the second best depending on how the rest of Watson’s career goes.

[Matt_In_NH]

A couple thoughts.

 

1.  It was just a small sample size so can we really make conclusions, based on previous data it aligns though.

2.  If Lamar Jackson tries to play on a pulled hammy or sprained ankle he will likely not do well.

3.  As inaccurate as he is, he will be MVP.  This demonstrates that the breadth of skills needed to play QB is huge, being good or bad in one area cannot tell you much about how effective a player can be.

[BillsVet]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

Reid did him a solid.  If that trade doesn’t go down, McD drafts Lattimore.  It’s a perfectly good pick, and McD still has to listen to the MMQBs complain that Mahomes went one pick later.  Instead, he got an arguably better player at the same position, added a third round pick that year and a first round pick the following year.  The Bills pulled of one of the three best drafts that year.  Possibly the second best depending on how the rest of Watson’s career goes.

 

Which planet are you dude? 

 

Many drafts ultimately don't feature 1 franchise QB.  2017 had at least 2 and McD passed on both of them.  Ironic, because he's known as an extremely hard worker, yet in the four months he was on the job leading up to draft day evidently they didn't do enough homework on either.  This, despite having TT on a 1 year deal.

 

At some point, even hardcore Bills fans gotta admit that not taking 1 of those 2 combined with using a starting OT and two 2nd round picks and the pick to move up for their franchise QB wasn't good resource allocation.  All because the HC wimped out when he needed to be bold...and that's something McD is doing far too much in personnel and on game day.

 

McD told the team after the Cleveland game that they needed to play fearless.  Perhaps McD needs to look in the mirror and do the same.

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, Billl said:

Reid did him a solid.  If that trade doesn’t go down, McD drafts Lattimore.  It’s a perfectly good pick, and McD still has to listen to the MMQBs complain that Mahomes went one pick later.  Instead, he got an arguably better player at the same position, added a third round pick that year and a first round pick the following year.  The Bills pulled of one of the three best drafts that year.  Possibly the second best depending on how the rest of Watson’s career goes.

 

 

You could argue that he did him a solid firing him in Philly  because he EVENTUALLY.......many years later........got a HC job.

 

The Chiefs were pretty confident they were going to get a stud QB and Reid knew that McD would have egg on his face if that was the case............perhaps the moral of the story is beware of people who have a history of using you for self preservation.

 

It's business........McD was trying to run the draft without the input of the team's GM or scouts...........perhaps he should have trusted his mentors evaluation and picked one of the QB's they were obviously moving up for.

[Bermuda Triangle]

2 hours ago, nucci said:

this is so much more important than what he does during the games

 

And the Pro Bowl is the bestest game of them all!  Looking forward to Andre Roberts making a push next year for WR1.

[BillsfanAZ]

53 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Which planet are you dude? 

 

Many drafts ultimately don't feature 1 franchise QB.  2017 had at least 2 and McD passed on both of them.  Ironic, because he's known as an extremely hard worker, yet in the four months he was on the job leading up to draft day evidently they didn't do enough homework on either.  This, despite having TT on a 1 year deal.

 

At some point, even hardcore Bills fans gotta admit that not taking 1 of those 2 combined with using a starting OT and two 2nd round picks and the pick to move up for their franchise QB wasn't good resource allocation.  All because the HC wimped out when he needed to be bold...and that's something McD is doing far too much in personnel and on game day.

 

McD told the team after the Cleveland game that they needed to play fearless.  Perhaps McD needs to look in the mirror and do the same.

Most people would love to have Mahomes right now. During that draft, how many people were saying how dumb the Bills were for passing on a potential MVP? Most draft gurus were saying the next year was going to be the draft for QB's. So the Bills passed on him and they got Tre White. At some point people need to move on from this. I dont have a problem with what they gave up to get Allen. The Bills made the playoffs at 9-7 and had to work their way up the draft board to get a QB. 

[BillsVet]

37 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

Most people would love to have Mahomes right now. During that draft, how many people were saying how dumb the Bills were for passing on a potential MVP? Most draft gurus were saying the next year was going to be the draft for QB's. So the Bills passed on him and they got Tre White. At some point people need to move on from this. I dont have a problem with what they gave up to get Allen. The Bills made the playoffs at 9-7 and had to work their way up the draft board to get a QB. 

 

I think there's a huge misconception on this board when some fans talk about major personnel misfires.  Professional organizations that make mistakes handle it different than fans who just want to move and can't criticize the team.   

 

The idea is to learn from mistakes.  It's resolving to make sure that it doesn't happen again.  I hope Buffalo doesn't have to draft a QB anytime soon, but it should be abundantly clear that when HC's pass on taking a QB it comes back to haunt them. 

 

McD is a detailed planner, but I would hope by now he recognizes that his planning needs to be flexible.  Heck, we talked in the Army about how the operation order went out the window when the first bullets started flying.  I see a guy who sticks to his plan come hell or high water and will not adapt.  That showed on draft night 2017.   

 

I remember McD talking about winning both now (2017) and later.  Well, winning in 2017 was nice, but how much did that affect their ability to win later.  Sure, drafting a Mahomes or Watson may not have provided the impact that taking a good CB did for the 2017 season.  But there isn't one intelligent football fan out there who would take Tre, a late 1st, and a 3rd over a franchise QB.  Any Bills fan who says they would are lying or can't separate their fan-hood from reality.  

Edited January 27, 2020 by BillsVet