MAJBobby Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) I was just talking about this in the Shaq wants cash thread too then go to twitter and see this. DI Jordan Phillips, Buffalo Bills The casual fan will look at Phillips’ stat line and think this was a breakout year. He had 10 sacks after recording just six in his first four seasons combined. The issue is that the sacks didn’t come as a result of Phillips winning more of his pass-rushes or showing dominant reps with quick wins. In fact, Phillips had the lowest PFF pass-rushing grade of his career this season at 60.2. 10 of his 25 total pressures resulted in sacks – an extremely high rate – and a good chunk of those sacks came with the quarterback tucking the ball and running into his waiting arms. As a player who has yet to crack an overall grade of 60.0 in a season, it would behoove teams to not spend big money on Phillips chasing his sack total. To his credit, he did leave us with this work of art against the Miami Dolphins in Week 11. Edited January 10, 2020 by MAJBobby 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I used to try and defend PFF but man are they getting really bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) They’re right. His splash plays make fans think he’s one of the best in the league and he’s simply not. Add to his higher than expected sacks given The number of pressures he’s also a big liability vs the run. Maybe our worst DL vs the run. Oliver had a much better year than Phillips even if the sack totals say otherwise. Edited January 10, 2020 by MDH 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, billsfan89 said: I used to try and defend PFF but man are they getting really bad. agree with their grades. But this is a very well laid out article 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsbackto81 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Meh. You can play this game with every D lineman in the league. Every one pick up garbage and coverage sacks. That being said I wouldn't break the bank on him. He is a very good fit in this D. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tisker A Tasker Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 PFFFFFFT!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 #allthelolspff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 PFF is dead to me frankly Phillips is a good player and should be retained.......a rotation of the two Phillips and Ed Oliver is sick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, John from Riverside said: PFF is dead to me frankly Phillips is a good player and should be retained.......a rotation of the two Phillips and Ed Oliver is sick do you retain him at 11M a year? They are not saying he is a bad player. They are saying he has a good shot to getting a contract in UFA that is way to much and they are spot on with that. Edited January 10, 2020 by MAJBobby 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: do you retain him at 11M a year? They are not saying he is a bad player. They are saying he has a good shot to getting a contract in UFA that is way to much and they are spot on with that. Sorry Bobby....should have read it all. Obviously there should be a spending limit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) He is a product of the system, and his co-workers on the D, has he taken advantage of his circumstances? Yes he has, as any decent player would. the sum is greater than the parts at this time. Go Bills!!! Edited January 10, 2020 by Don Otreply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: Sorry Bobby....should have read it all. Obviously there should be a spending limit. I do want him back. His true value is about 7.5M a year. The issue is going to come when his agent gets to the Combine and is hearing double digit AVV. Like 10+. Some GM or coach or both is going to see double digit sacks from the interior and pay him like a top 5 DT completely over looking his big struggles against the run. here is to hoping Beane can get the contract done before the combine and the Tampering is going full bore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just now, MAJBobby said: I do want him back. His true value is about 7.5M a year. The issue is going to come when his agent gets to the Combine and is hearing double digit AVV. Like 10+. Some GM or coach or both is going to see double digit sacks from the interior and pay him like a top 5 DT completely over looking his big struggles against the run. here is to hoping Beane can get the contract done before the combine and the Tampering is going full bore. Yes I hear you and my dreams of moving him into Star's position with his questionable run stop plummeted. For someone of his size he should be a much better run defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Amazing how our Defense was Top 5 in virtually every category, yet according to PFF almost all of our defensive players are below average. A couple weeks ago, one of their guys was defending the ridiculously low grade on Tre White. It was hilarious during the Pittsburgh introductions. I don't think the Bills had one guy in the Top 30 at their position on the defensive side. Hopefully the other teams looking for D-Line help take PFF as gospel. It may help us retain Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson on some bargain deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 I mean I don't know enough to argue either way but I bet it is possible that the scheme was driving sacks his way, the whole thing is a team effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, mjt328 said: Amazing how our Defense was Top 5 in virtually every category, yet according to PFF almost all of our defensive players are below average. A couple weeks ago, one of their guys was defending the ridiculously low grade on Tre White. It was hilarious during the Pittsburgh introductions. I don't think the Bills had one guy in the Top 30 at their position on the defensive side. Hopefully the other teams looking for D-Line help take PFF as gospel. It may help us retain Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson on some bargain deals. bargin deals or true value deals. Is Phillips worth 11-12M a year? i think people see PFF and think immediately trash. This is a good article and think in terms of contract value as that is what article is about Edited January 10, 2020 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: do you retain him at 11M a year? They are not saying he is a bad player. They are saying he has a good shot to getting a contract in UFA that is way to much and they are spot on with that. It will be interesting to see how the market plays out. I was looking at a few Free Agent rankings online, and neither site had Phillips or Lawson in the Top 25 free agents at their positions. It was pretty pathetic, but it makes me wonder if these guys are truly flying under the radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) I mean even Sptrac sees it. if Phillips didn’t have some big flaws he would not have a projected market value of 6M. He would have a projected market value of 12-13M 3 minutes ago, mjt328 said: It will be interesting to see how the market plays out. I was looking at a few Free Agent rankings online, and neither site had Phillips or Lawson in the Top 25 free agents at their positions. It was pretty pathetic, but it makes me wonder if these guys are truly flying under the radar. Phillips has some pretty big flags on him. And for that matter Shaq Does as well. I think the market will humble Shaq. Not so sure about Phillips if he gets to market I think he banks. Edited January 10, 2020 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: He is a product of the system, and his co-workers on the D, has he taken advantage of his circumstances? Yes he has, as any decent player would. Yep. The DE's contain the outside rush lanes and force the QB to stay in the pocket--which the DTs usually drive right back right into him. It reminds me a lot of this... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Lurker said: Yep. The DE's contain the outside rush lanes and force the QB to stay in the pocket--which the DTs usually drive right back right into him. It reminds me a lot of this... Who got that picture of Ed Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 31 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: PFF is dead to me frankly Phillips is a good player and should be retained.......a rotation of the two Phillips and Ed Oliver is sick He's going to want a 4-5 year deal, and at 8M per we're talking probably 20M+ guaranteed. That's a lot for someone with 1 out his 5 NFL seasons being very good. I know some people are emotionally invested in keeping him, but the value isn't there and emotion doesn't play a part in this. Also, consider that Phillips plays the 3T most and that's where this team just took a kid 9th overall. He's also not a great fit at 1T where Lotulelei and H. Phillips will be next season in all likelihood (although it remains to be seen what Star brings). The PFF analysis makes a compelling argument for allowing him to test UFA. Just because a guy has sacks doesn't mean you keep him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, BillsVet said: He's going to want a 4-5 year deal, and at 8M per we're talking probably 20M+ guaranteed. That's a lot for someone with 1 out his 5 NFL seasons being very good. I know some people are emotionally invested in keeping him, but the value isn't there and emotion doesn't play a part in this. Also, consider that Phillips plays the 3T most and that's where this team just took a kid 9th overall. He's also not a great fit at 1T where Lotulelei and H. Phillips will be next season in all likelihood (although it remains to be seen what Star brings). The PFF analysis makes a compelling argument for allowing him to test UFA. Just because a guy has sacks doesn't mean you keep him. Lets wait to see what he is actually looking for. You dont get better by letting your good players walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: Lets wait to see what he is actually looking for. You dont get better by letting your good players walk. I am in at 6 to 8.5 AVV could even get up to 9.5. I am not breaking the double digit threshold for him. And I fully suspect once Combine comes his agent is going to be hearing from teams butting him in that 10M+ range. already did it once with Star (a flawed player) not gonna day let’s do it again. Star 10M a year can only play the run Phillips 10M a year and can’t play the run. you also don’t get better over-paying flawed players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 He's gone, would be overvalued anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJBobby Posted January 10, 2020 Author Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) And just to add a board Favorite for Bills to go get in Vic Beasley and Bud Dupree are also discussed as over valued but the other AtL DE Adrian Clayborn and Clowney are in the undervalued list. Edited January 10, 2020 by MAJBobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALLEN1QB Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Bruce Smith he is not that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 48 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: And just to add a board Favorite for Bills to go get in Vic Beasley and Bud Dupree are also discussed as over valued but the other AtL DE Adrian Clayborn and Clowney are in the undervalued list. Beasley is never signing in Buffalo. He is the exact opposite of a process and culture guy. Beane and McDermott will have the scoop on him from their time in Carolina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 2 hours ago, mjt328 said: Amazing how our Defense was Top 5 in virtually every category, yet according to PFF almost all of our defensive players are below average. A couple weeks ago, one of their guys was defending the ridiculously low grade on Tre White. It was hilarious during the Pittsburgh introductions. I don't think the Bills had one guy in the Top 30 at their position on the defensive side. Hopefully the other teams looking for D-Line help take PFF as gospel. It may help us retain Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson on some bargain deals. I’ve thought this same thing a bunch. How can a defense rank elite and top 5 basically across the board in all meaningful categories and yet PFF doesn’t have any of our guys graded out very well at all. it’s really hard to take them seriously anymore. Does anyone in their right friggin mind think white is the 15th best corner in the NFL? It’s their system and I have to believe that even they have a hard time believing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcampbell104 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 pff is bull crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McClappy Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, mjt328 said: Amazing how our Defense was Top 5 in virtually every category, yet according to PFF almost all of our defensive players are below average. A couple weeks ago, one of their guys was defending the ridiculously low grade on Tre White. It was hilarious during the Pittsburgh introductions. I don't think the Bills had one guy in the Top 30 at their position on the defensive side. Hopefully the other teams looking for D-Line help take PFF as gospel. It may help us retain Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson on some bargain deals. Spot on! PFF is straight trash. I think PFF hopes this is how our FO see ours players so we can farm out to other teams. If Phillips signs elsewhere his grade will immediately shoot up and that team will have won the offseason by these clowns. Edited January 11, 2020 by Real McNasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 36 minutes ago, Real McNasty said: Spot on! PFF is straight trash. I think PFF hopes this is how our FO see ours players so we can farm out to other teams. If Phillips signs elsewhere his grade will immediately shoot up and that team will have won the offseason by these clowns. Other team's front offices have their own analytics, PFF are essentially amateurs who watch a lot of football and attempt to grade each play. Front offices have actual staff who attempt to quantify how good players on their team and other teams are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Sign Clowney to 25 mil a year it's better than paying Shaq 12 a year. Just structure it so he can be cut/traded after 3 seasons (ie when we need to pay Josh $200million) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 6 hours ago, John from Riverside said: Lets wait to see what he is actually looking for. You dont get better by letting your good players walk. He's not going to accept an AAV equal to what he had this year: 4.5M. So bank on at least 7M per. And that's low-balling it. Say Buffalo re-signs him. They'd have big dollars tied up in two DTs, a 3rd round pick and a top 10 pick. I'm sorry, but this team can find a solid contributor without investing big resources at DT. McD likes his waves of DT's, but was Buffalo's interior DLine that much better with Phillips? It wasn't, but plenty of people focus on that 10 sacks number and think he's gotta be retained. Not at the kind of money he'll be looking to make, but working in the Bills favor is that (so far) the DT UFA class looks pretty strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, billsfan89 said: Other team's front offices have their own analytics, PFF are essentially amateurs who watch a lot of football and attempt to grade each play. Front offices have actual staff who attempt to quantify how good players on their team and other teams are. Every NFL team uses PFF and pays them. PFF isn't facts, but it's data that can be used to help gather information on players. That's all it is. It's not trash. It's opinions. They watch every single snap and give their opinion. Edited January 11, 2020 by Buffalo_Stampede Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, peterpan said: Sign Clowney to 25 mil a year it's better than paying Shaq 12 a year. Just structure it so he can be cut/traded after 3 seasons (ie when we need to pay Josh $200million) I'de offer Clowney a 2 year $50 million deal fully guaranteed. An elite pass rusher added to this defense would be like Thanos adding the 6th stone. Edited January 11, 2020 by Buffalo_Stampede Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bookie Man Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Kind of reminded me of Shaq vs Denver. Picked up 2 sacks that day, but literally was untouched on both plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, billsfan89 said: Other team's front offices have their own analytics, PFF are essentially amateurs who watch a lot of football and attempt to grade each play. Front offices have actual staff who attempt to quantify how good players on their team and other teams are. As of 2019, PFFprovides customized data to all 32 NFL teams, 62 NCAA FBS teams, 4 CFLteams, national/regional media (i.e. Washington Post, The Athletic, ESPN) and sports agencies/agents. Bunch of 'amateur jokers' that the pros and colleges pay for their insight evidently. Edited January 11, 2020 by Turk71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GETTOTHE50 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 I would not like for him to leave. him and treday made the bigger plays on defense this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, MAJBobby said: And just to add a board Favorite for Bills to go get in Vic Beasley and Bud Dupree are also discussed as over valued but the other AtL DE Adrian Clayborn and Clowney are in the undervalued list. Beasley is trash. I don't think Beane/McD are that stupid. Bud Dupree was nothing until offenses had to start focusing more of their attention on Watt. Clayborn is trash and is close to 32. Clowney is gonna be too rich for our blood, as will Ngakoue. I expect Shaq to be re-signed, Liuget to be re-signed, and Phillips allowed to walk. We get Harry back next year and still have Taylor. They won't break the bank for anyone on either side of the ball, though I do hope they open up their wallet somewhat for Conklin. Edited January 11, 2020 by H2o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 PFF haters should also note that they had Harrison Phillips rated very highly (the highest rated defensive lineman on the Bills in 2019) in his limited pre-injury action this year. And Kyle Peko rated as, well, kind of sub-replacement level. Those ratings make sense to me. Jordan Phillips had a nice season, but he's still erratic -- he'll impress with the "damn, that big guy's got some moves" moments, then follow by having his 330 pound body bulldozed on runs right up the middle. Jordan is worth keeping at a reasonable price, but I think he'll get a bigger offer from somebody than what his overall body of work warrants. Thanks, PFF, for helping the Bills avoid making a mistake .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts