Why wasn't Duke Williams active?

[JoPoy88]

Ifs and buts...

Seriously? So, so stupid. I thought the wild duke comparisons were over but this takes it to that next level.

2 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Wow.

 

Really idiotic.

 

Especially now in a league that's pretty obviously veering strongly away from the statuesque QB and in a year when Brady blows.

have another one hawaii. Good lord.

[Bangarang]

22 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Knox can't catch.

 

That's one of just 2 critical components 

 

Stop being such a whiny cotton headed ninny muggins.

 

I'm looking at this year. Duke can be cut in the offseason for all I care so long as we take care of the prerequisite qualifications.

 

Stop focusing on your misconception that I'm comparing Duke Williams with Gonzalez and Gronk--which I'm not--and start focusing on our most disturbing issue...

 

HIGHEST DROP PERCENTAGE IN THE NFL

Why even make this silly thread listing great receivers that other teams have? Why not just go to the other stupid Duke thread and say how you think he should be active. Is that not LAMP enough?

[Bubba Gump]

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

[HOUSE]

Psssst, A playoff secret weapon.Keep it under your hat, there are camera crews everywhere.

[qwerty]

3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

No, I am not REMOTELY saying Duke Williams is on the level of one current 1st ballot HOFer and one future 1st ballot HOFer...

 

but...

 

When was the last time Buffalo had AND utilized a well known surehanded AND big bodied WR or TE?

 

Pete Metzelaars????

 

I'm talking surehanded in the manner that Gronk's scouting report describes him, which is the description of "consistent hands and plucks the ball." Gonzales was the same player throughout his career.

 

Is there any more important attribute as a guy who catches the football?

 

Guys, the Bills have the HIGHEST drop percentage in the NFL through 13 games BY FAR!!!

 

Has the Bills organization been overvaluing lesser important skillsets over the last 2+ decades?

 

I feel like off the top of my head I can go through a BUNCH of NFL teams and find guys very recently that fit this category:

 

Detroit had Megatron 

San Diego had Gates

Tampa has Mike Evan's

Pat's had Gronk

Cardinals have Fitz

Cleveland had Gordon (saw Pats and now Seahawks follow)

Bengals have AJ Green

Bears then Eagles had/have Jeffery 

Saints have Michael Thomas

Saints then Eagles had/have Jimmy Graham 

Chiefs have Kelce (had Gonzalez)

Falcons have Julio (had Gonzalez)

Panthers have Olsen

 

 

Honestly, do we have this guy on the roster? I truly think Knox could be that guy if he could learn to catch the damn football, but not right now. Maybe he gets with the jugs machine and wildly improves next year... happened with Gonzalez in the aforementioned show by his own admission.

 

Truthfully, right now the closest guy we have is Duke Williams, who's inactive every week.

 

This all just seems like a bad recipe for a team with a young QB who's been repeatedly advertised as "inaccurate."

 

Again, the Bills have the 2nd highest total number of drops in the NFL but have the highest drop % in the NFL!!!

 

This has been seemingly a trend with this team as we care about "versatility" and "athleticism"--see Charles Clay. Those are great traits unless they exist without the ability to reliably finish the play.

 

I hope Knox becomes this guy next year, but he sucks for reliability right now.

 

Time to activate Duke and start throwing it to him. 

 

Get a true #1 next year, but let's make sure we have all our best options actually active to start utilizing them so we can make some damn noise this year...and it starts Sunday!!!

Spot on. We need sure-handed receivers who won’t kill drives. So frustrating to see the perfect play call blown up by poor execution. Too bad some reader-posters here missed your point. 

[JESSEFEFFER]

I would make the argument differently than TPBF but have much the same opinion about Duke.  He has traits that others in the WR corps lack.  That deep ball to Foster that some wanted a challenge for PI?  Duke does not get easily bumped out of position and then used like a pommel horse by the db.   On that post by Brown Duke could lean into the db just prior to the break with a bump and then his wider body prevents the db from getting to the catch point to get the pbu.   Anyways, a bigger bodied wr has ways to win a play that others do not.

[Freddie's Dead]

Who is Mike Evan?

[machine gun kelly]

Freddie, it could have been autocorrect.  I’m sure the OP knows it’s Mike Evans.

The only part that is a knock on Williams is it’s reported he’s slow so cannot get separation.  I know that is in contrast to speed, but if they can’t catch, it doesn’t matter how fast they run.

 

I see both sides.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

10 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Freddie, it could have been autocorrect.  I’m sure the OP knows it’s Mike Evans.

The only part that is a knock on Williams is it’s reported he’s slow so cannot get separation.  I know that is in contrast to speed, but if they can’t catch, it doesn’t matter how fast they run.

 

I see both sides.

 

....the whole "Duke" issue is pretty confusing.....first, I read an article where McBeane was quoted (paraphrased), "the signing of Duke Williams made drafting a WR early not a top priority"........sounds like a pretty confident statement IMO....secondly, if separation was a major issue, shouldn't it have been clearly evident in CFL game tapes (certainly there is a significant talent level difference with NFL vs CFL)?..........thirdly, he has appeared in THREE games this year....is that a fair and valid assessment period to evaluate his separation abilities?...

[machine gun kelly]

Old Time, you know I respect you’re opinion, and I’m not stating he’s slow, just stating it has been commented by either coaching or Mgmt or the media.  In his three games, I watched on TV, and one limitation is in real time not shows no enough down the field of whether he was getting separation or not.  For anyone who has season tickets and seen him play, I defer to you’re opinions.

[ALF]

Dawson Knox    at his pro day for Ole Miss he ran a reported 4.57.   Apr 26, 2019

 

At the NFL Combine, Duke Williams ran a 4.72 in the 40-yard dash

 

Not sure which one is better at contested passes or who is sure handed. It would be nice to have both tall targets on the field.

[Kirby Jackson]

5 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Wow.

 

Really idiotic.

 

Especially now in a league that's pretty obviously veering strongly away from the statuesque QB and in a year when Brady blows.

2 HOF TEs make you want to see more of a CFL WR that has been active for 3 games? I’m the idiot?

Edited December 14, 2019 by Kirby Jackson

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, machine gun kelly said:

Old Time, you know I respect you’re opinion, and I’m not stating he’s slow, just stating it has been commented by either coaching or Mgmt or the media.  In his three games, I watched on TV, and one limitation is in real time not shows no enough down the field of whether he was getting separation or not.  For anyone who has season tickets and seen him play, I defer to you’re opinions.

'......absolutely not challenging your assessment my good friend.......was citing some questions I have as to how they could have apparently missed so badly on their pre-signing assessment whereby he has only been in three games...do you think there could be more to it, perhaps not a good fit in what Daboll wants to do?......

[fansince88]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Knox can't catch.

 

That's one of just 2 critical components 

 

Stop being such a whiny cotton headed ninny muggins.

 

I'm looking at this year. Duke can be cut in the offseason for all I care so long as we take care of the prerequisite qualifications.

 

Stop focusing on your misconception that I'm comparing Duke Williams with Gonzalez and Gronk--which I'm not--and start focusing on our most disturbing issue...

 

HIGHEST DROP PERCENTAGE IN THE NFL

I guess I wonder about that. Per this link:https://www.rotowire.com/football/player.php?id=13466

He drops 15% but catches 57%. Is thst terrible for a rookie or normal but hecause he is a Bill we notice it more? Not arguing the point just wondering out loud. Perhaps plug in an average TE in the league, is he close? Way off? 

[Billsfan1972]

9 minutes ago, fansince88 said:

I guess I wonder about that. Per this link:https://www.rotowire.com/football/player.php?id=13466

He drops 15% but catches 57%. Is thst terrible for a rookie or normal but hecause he is a Bill we notice it more? Not arguing the point just wondering out loud. Perhaps plug in an average TE in the league, is he close? Way off? 

Here you go.....

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?season=2019&week=100&category=RECEIVING&opp=0&sort=10&qualified=1&sortOrder=0

 

Second in the league...... 26 receptions & 9 drops!!!!!!  Wow that is bad.

 

Add to that Beasley, Brown & Singletary with 4 apiece!!!!!  

 

Duke catches balls & is a BIG Target.  At least he would make a better target then Foster or Mackenzie.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Billsfan1972

[HOUSE]

Is he still on the team? I kind of remember him, was from Canada right?

[fansince88]

24 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Here you go.....

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?season=2019&week=100&category=RECEIVING&opp=0&sort=10&qualified=1&sortOrder=0

 

Second in the league...... 26 receptions & 9 drops!!!!!!  Wow that is bad.

 

Add to that Beasley, Brown & Singletary with 4 apiece!!!!!  

 

Duke catches balls & is a BIG Target.  At least he would make a better target then Foster or Mackenzie.

I dont disagree.  Was looking for those #s. Thanks.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Honestly, do we have this guy on the roster? I truly think Knox could be that guy if he could learn to catch the damn football, but not right now. Maybe he gets with the jugs machine and wildly improves next year... happened with Gonzalez in the aforementioned show by his own admission.

 

 

 

....he's a damn 3rd round rook who has started nine games.....and who had 18 games of experience at the collegiate level with 39 receptions.....safe to say your expert analytical prowess has carried over from your BBMB days....SMH....

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, ALF said:

Dawson Knox    at his pro day for Ole Miss he ran a reported 4.57.   Apr 26, 2019

 

At the NFL Combine, Duke Williams ran a 4.72 in the 40-yard dash

 

Not sure which one is better at contested passes or who is sure handed. It would be nice to have both tall targets on the field.

Duke clearly has better hands over Dawson but not as fast. This might simply boil down to draft position.  More has been invested in Knox than Duke. Duke has caught every ball thrown to him. This is a frustrating development and the staff will have to figure out what direction they want to go in with selecting between Knox or Williams. This stupid NFL rule is embarrassing. Let all 53 play. 

[fansince88]

53 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....he's a damn 3rd round rook who has started nine games.....and who had 18 games of experience at the collegiate level with 39 receptions.....safe to say your expert analytical prowess has carried over from your BBMB days....SMH....

All great points. This was my point in the post above. His drops percentage is 15% and how does that compare as a rookie. Also just thinking about it he also has quite a few drops because he is turning his head upfield before he is completing the catch. That seems more of a muscle memory fix then an ability issue no? He has the potential to be great and the coaches and team to get there imho.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, fansince88 said:

All great points. This was my point in the post above. His drops percentage is 15% and how does that compare as a rookie. Also just thinking about it he also has quite a few drops because he is turning his head upfield before he is completing the catch. That seems more of a muscle memory fix then an ability issue no? He has the potential to be great and the coaches and team to get there imho.

...better be careful with this "voice of reason and assessment" stuff 'round these parts....better don your kevlar vest bud.....

[Nelius]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Duke has no speed,  is not at all quick and has about the same vertical leap as Cody Ford.

 

He has nice body control and very good ball skills and is very physical.   He's basically an undersized and slow receiving tight end.  

 

You are comparing him to WR's who were smooth and sudden and had a lot of traits Duke does not have beyond just being slower in the 40 than most of them.

 

I'm not really comparing him to anybody per my original disclaimer. I'm making light of the statement that 4.72 in general is too slow to be a WR, especially when considering that the best to ever do it ran a 4.71.

[BananaB]

His 85% catch rate is making the rest of the guys look bad. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

9 minutes ago, Nelius said:

 

I'm not really comparing him to anybody per my original disclaimer. I'm making light of the statement that 4.72 in general is too slow to be a WR, especially when considering that the best to ever do it ran a 4.71.

 

...who gets to run 40 yards unimpeded anyway?.........

 

"Jerry Rice reportedly ran a 4.7 second 40-yard dash (regarded as a mediocre figures for a wide receiver).  Said former teammate Ronnie Lott, "Jerry may have been a 4.6 or a 4.7, but he was a 4.2 on Sundays." Rice was also generally noted for being able to run as fast a 40-yard dash under the weight of heavy NFL padding as he was in track gear."

[BADOLBILZ]

38 minutes ago, Nelius said:

 

I'm not really comparing him to anybody per my original disclaimer. I'm making light of the statement that 4.72 in general is too slow to be a WR, especially when considering that the best to ever do it ran a 4.71.

 

 

Jason Peters ran a 4.8 40 at the combine at like 80 pounds heavier than Duke.    It's all relative. 

 

I think we get it that there are exceptions to the rule regarding one specific trait at this point but Duke isn't all that comparable to the list of WR's you are using as an example.    

 

[transplantbillsfan]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

2 HOF TEs make you want to see more of a CFL WR that has been active for 3 games? I’m the idiot?

 

The premise is that it would be for more than just 3 games.

 

This team actually has a chance at making legitimate playoff noise this year.

 

Allen is still learning and growing and he's going to take his lumps, which only leaves us to look at improving play calling, offensive execution and offensive talent.

 

Execution probably is what it is 13 games in.

 

Play calling probably is what it is 13 games in.

 

That leaves offensive talent for this stretch run and (I believe and hope) a multi game playoff run.

3 hours ago, fansince88 said:

I guess I wonder about that. Per this link:https://www.rotowire.com/football/player.php?id=13466

He drops 15% but catches 57%. Is thst terrible for a rookie or normal but hecause he is a Bill we notice it more? Not arguing the point just wondering out loud. Perhaps plug in an average TE in the league, is he close? Way off? 

 

Dropping 15% of the passes thrown to you is pretty bad for any NFL WR or TE.

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

The premise is that it would be for more than just 3 games.

 

This team actually has a chance at making legitimate playoff noise this year.

 

Allen is still learning and growing and he's going to take his lumps, which only leaves us to look at improving play calling, offensive execution and offensive talent.

 

Execution probably is what it is 13 games in.

 

Play calling probably is what it is 13 games in.

 

That leaves offensive talent for this stretch run and (I believe and hope) a multi game playoff run.

 

Dropping 15% of the passes thrown to you is pretty bad for any NFL WR or TE.

But don’t you think the coaches that see him everyday in practice and break down the film are more equipped to make that decision? Maybe he’s not some great player that just needs a chance. Maybe he’s a fringe NFL player? I subscribe to Occam’s Razor in pretty much every situation.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Nelius said:

 

I'm not really comparing him to anybody per my original disclaimer. I'm making light of the statement that 4.72 in general is too slow to be a WR, especially when considering that the best to ever do it ran a 4.71.

right but when you post the exception to the rule and ignore why he was the exception it doesn’t do much in furthering the conversation 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, fansince88 said:

I guess I wonder about that. Per this link:https://www.rotowire.com/football/player.php?id=13466

He drops 15% but catches 57%. Is thst terrible for a rookie or normal but hecause he is a Bill we notice it more? Not arguing the point just wondering out loud. Perhaps plug in an average TE in the league, is he close? Way off? 

 

Nit: 9 drops out of 45 targets is 20%, not 15.  1 in 5.  That's just bad.  It's league leading bad, and the next guy isn't close at 13.5%

 

I couldn't find data on TE in the league much less averages, so I rolled my own. 

 

Screening for TE with at least 13 targets (eg at least 1 target per game) the average catch % for a TE is 69%!!!! 

If we look at TE who have at least 39 targets (3 targets per game average) the average catch % is.....69% and Dawson Knox is second from last with his 57%.

 

TE are often like RB, used for check downs and short, high percentage routes and tend to have higher completion %, more like WR, 75-80%.  I'll grant you that Knox is asked to run routes more like a WR, where for a young guy learning his craft 60-65% catch % is good.   I'll also grant you that Allen does throw it away in his direction a lot so maybe his target number is inflated a bit.  But all QB throw balls away, Allen maybe less often than he needs to.  

 

If Knox caught half the balls he's dropped (4, say), he'd be at 67% completions which is just fine - and would move him into 2nd place for "highest drops by a TE".

 

I hope he'll get better, because to counterbalance he does some spectacular stuff and shows some promise as a blocker (Judon aside), but LORDY.

 

[fansince88]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Nit: 9 drops out of 45 targets is 20%, not 15.  1 in 5.  That's just bad.  It's league leading bad, and the next guy isn't close at 13.5%

 

I couldn't find data on TE in the league much less averages, so I rolled my own. 

 

Screening for TE with at least 13 targets (eg at least 1 target per game) the average catch % for a TE is 69%!!!! 

If we look at TE who have at least 39 targets (3 targets per game average) the average catch % is.....69% and Dawson Knox is second from last with his 57%.

 

TE are often like RB, used for check downs and short, high percentage routes and tend to have higher completion %, more like WR, 75-80%.  I'll grant you that Knox is asked to run routes more like a WR, where for a young guy learning his craft 60-65% catch % is good.   I'll also grant you that Allen does throw it away in his direction a lot so maybe his target number is inflated a bit.  But all QB throw balls away, Allen maybe less often than he needs to.  

 

If Knox caught half the balls he's dropped (4, say), he'd be at 67% completions which is just fine - and would move him into 2nd place for "highest drops by a TE".

 

I hope he'll get better, because to counterbalance he does some spectacular stuff and shows some promise as a blocker (Judon aside), but LORDY.

 

I get all that but he is a rookie. So many in the fan base want to give up too fast. Lets see what happens.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

But don’t you think the coaches that see him everyday in practice and break down the film are more equipped to make that decision? Maybe he’s not some great player that just needs a chance. Maybe he’s a fringe NFL player? I subscribe to Occam’s Razor in pretty much every situation.

 

After he had some success in his first game, McDermott said stuff like "he needs to realize it's going to get tougher as teams get film on him" and "he needs to keep advancing in his understanding of the playbook" or words to that effect.

 

My impression is that the coaches are watching the #3 WR candidates carefully and adjusting who is active and how many snaps they get accordingly.  Duke needs to show better ability to release off the line, run crisp exact routes, and separate to make up for his lack of speed.  I think we still see potential in him, but he'll have to study hard in the playbook and film, and work on his speed, quickness, and release in the off season to have a shot next year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, fansince88 said:

I get all that but he is a rookie. So many in the fan base want to give up too fast. Lets see what happens.

 

I'm not giving up but I'm pretty frustrated.  There were 8 TE drafted in the first 3 rounds.  Knox was #6. 

He's currently #3 in yards and #4 in receptions, so it can easily be argued that he's providing value above his draft position.

 

But the other top guys are way way lower in the drops: Fant is worst with 8.5%, Hockenson 3.4%, Smith 2.6%. 

 

I "get it" that Knox went where he went because he simply was not used in the receiving game in college, so he perhaps has a higher learning curve. 

 

I just don't know how much that improves at this level.

 

[fansince88]

20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not giving up but I'm pretty frustrated.  There were 8 TE drafted in the first 3 rounds.  Knox was #6. 

He's currently #3 in yards and #4 in receptions, so it can easily be argued that he's providing value above his draft position.

 

But the other top guys are way way lower in the drops: Fant is worst with 8.5%, Hockenson 3.4%, Smith 2.6%. 

 

I "get it" that Knox went where he went because he simply was not used in the receiving game in college, so he perhaps has a higher learning curve. 

 

I just don't know how much that improves at this level.

 

Im sure we agree we will find out. That said, I believe he is the best of the position that we have. I have said all along, next year we take the next jump. We are headed in the right direction. 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

But don’t you think the coaches that see him everyday in practice and break down the film are more equipped to make that decision? Maybe he’s not some great player that just needs a chance. Maybe he’s a fringe NFL player? I subscribe to Occam’s Razor in pretty much every situation.

 

I think coaches can get blinded by their own philosophies and schemes and I think that's what's happened with Daboll, who likely has final say in the offensive personnel he's going to use, thus who's active on gameday.

 

 

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

But don’t you think the coaches that see him everyday in practice and break down the film are more equipped to make that decision? Maybe he’s not some great player that just needs a chance. Maybe he’s a fringe NFL player? I subscribe to Occam’s Razor in pretty much every situation.

 

Or maybe he could help the offense for a play or to and make a difference.  How long did it take them to start using Singletary more?  Hell, I still sometimes think Daboll could use him more than he does.

48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

After he had some success in his first game, McDermott said stuff like "he needs to realize it's going to get tougher as teams get film on him" and "he needs to keep advancing in his understanding of the playbook" or words to that effect.

 

My impression is that the coaches are watching the #3 WR candidates carefully and adjusting who is active and how many snaps they get accordingly.  Duke needs to show better ability to release off the line, run crisp exact routes, and separate to make up for his lack of speed.  I think we still see potential in him, but he'll have to study hard in the playbook and film, and work on his speed, quickness, and release in the off season to have a shot next year.

 

You have all-22 yes?  Any chance you want to look at say the Philly game and give your impression on Williams in that game? Like his route running and stuff. I think that's the last game he played.  I think he may have had a fairly high snap count that game too.

[transplantbillsfan]

48 minutes ago, fansince88 said:

I get all that but he is a rookie. So many in the fan base want to give up too fast. Lets see what happens.

 

No one is saying give up.

 

But we need a reliable pass catcher THIS YEAR.

 

Duke was only targeted 8 times during the regular season but caught 7 of those passes. I believe he caught every target in the preseason.

 

The Bills and Josh Allen in particular need a reliable pass catcher like that in certain situations THIS YEAR!

 

This isn't a long term thing for Duke. Is there a big reliable pass catching WR in the draft? If there is and he's worthy of a 1st round pick I expect we target him in the draft and then Duke is likely not even on the roster next year...

 

BUT...

 

this team is playing for THIS year.

 

Activate Duke because he's the most surehanded guy we have on this team.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

You have all-22 yes?  Any chance you want to look at say the Philly game and give your impression on Williams in that game? Like his route running and stuff. I think that's the last game he played.  I think he may have had a fairly high snap count that game too.

 

I do have all-22, yes, but I'm sorry, I'm really not motivated to look for Williams in that game right now. 

 

He did have a high snap count in the Philly game, 66%.  Caught 1 of 2 targets for 6 yds.  Had a high snap count of 53% in the previous game vs Miami as well.

 

[transplantbillsfan]

4 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....he's a damn 3rd round rook who has started nine games.....and who had 18 games of experience at the collegiate level with 39 receptions.....safe to say your expert analytical prowess has carried over from your BBMB days....SMH....

 

Yikes.

 

No ***** Sherlock.

 

Stop being the blind curmudgeon you've proven to be in your obvious personal distaste for me as a poster and read the friggin words that you bolded. Try comprehending what those words actually say before you go on the attack.

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I do have all-22, yes, but I'm sorry, I'm really not motivated to look for Williams in that game right now. 

 

He did have a high snap count in the Philly game, 66%.  Caught 1 of 2 targets for 6 yds.  Had a high snap count of 53% in the previous game vs Miami as well.

 

 

Maybe ill get the trial and take a look.

[fansince88]

52 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

No one is saying give up.

 

But we need a reliable pass catcher THIS YEAR.

 

Duke was only targeted 8 times during the regular season but caught 7 of those passes. I believe he caught every target in the preseason.

 

The Bills and Josh Allen in particular need a reliable pass catcher like that in certain situations THIS YEAR!

 

This isn't a long term thing for Duke. Is there a big reliable pass catching WR in the draft? If there is and he's worthy of a 1st round pick I expect we target him in the draft and then Duke is likely not even on the roster next year...

 

BUT...

 

this team is playing for THIS year.

 

Activate Duke because he's the most surehanded guy we have on this team.

Dont get me wrong. I am and have been on the Duuuuuuuuuke bandwagon since the summer. That said, this post seemed to be a Knox is no good post. Why they are not playing DW I dont know.