Joe B All-22 from Dolphins game

[YoloinOhio]

Quote

Facing a weaker opponent, Oliver was buzzing all game as both a pass rusher and run defender. He worked through double teams, won his one-on-one matchups and because of it, forced Dolphins rushing attempts to go awry.Everyone will remember Oliver’s first career sack, but he did much more than that on Sunday. Oliver continues to affect passing plays even without the statistics to back it up. He’s getting quarterbacks to move off their spots, forcing inaccurate passes downfield. In just six games, Oliver has provided an upgrade to the three-technique position from 2018 and has the potential for more. Between Oliver and Jordan Phillips, the duo has turned the role into a strength for the Bills this season.

Edited October 22, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[Warcodered]

Weird I heard Allen was only good for half the game.?

[billsfan1959]

Some people are not going to be very happy about this....

[White Linen]

Oliver was a monstar in that game.  

[HappyDays]

Yep I would encourage everyone to rewatch the game. Allen was pretty good in the 1st half and great in the 2nd half. This was his best game yet IMO.

[K-9]

Just now, HappyDays said:

Yep I would encourage everyone to rewatch the game. Allen was pretty good in the 1st half and great in the 2nd half. This was his best game yet IMO.

Yep. Two decent games in a row by Josh. Building the foundation. 

[BADOLBILZ]

Allen is doing fine for a young QB.

 

If they had some playmaking talent around him on offense he wouldn't have to be defended.

 

Plays like that throw on the run to McKenzie in the end zone.............that is a hopeless throw to a smurf-gadget WR but that could be a TD with a good 6'2" WR with ball skills.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

Allen is doing fine for a young QB.

 

If they had some playmaking talent around him on offense he wouldn't have to be defended.

 

Plays like that throw on the run to McKenzie in the end zone.............that is a hopeless throw to a smurf-gadget WR but that could be a TD with a good 6'2" WR with ball skills.

 

John Brown and Cole Beasley called.  They said to say "Boo!"

 

I do take your point on the need for another WR

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Allen is doing fine for a young QB.

 

If they had some playmaking talent around him on offense he wouldn't have to be defended.

 

Plays like that throw on the run to McKenzie in the end zone.............that is a hopeless throw to a smurf-gadget WR but that could be a TD with a good 6'2" WR with ball skills.

You mean like 82?

[John from Riverside]

I thought Josh played a good game after my review of the film last night as well.....

 

On gameday ppl were slitting their wrists with some of the most insane comments.

 

 

[BillsfaninSB]

How dare he not justify my misery!

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I thought Josh played a good game after my review of the film last night as well.....

 

On gameday ppl were slitting their wrists with some of the most insane comments.

 

 

I admire your fortitude for being able to stomach this place during a game. It’s full tilt bozo time around here on game days. 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

You mean like 82?

 

 

No.........Duke would have still been at the 10 yard line when that ball was thrown.    He's routinely the slowest non-lineman on the field on any given play he's in there.    Nice chain mover and RZ option but not a solution to the lack of big plays in the passing game.

 

[GG]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Allen is doing fine for a young QB.

 

If they had some playmaking talent around him on offense he wouldn't have to be defended.

 

Plays like that throw on the run to McKenzie in the end zone.............that is a hopeless throw to a smurf-gadget WR but that could be a TD with a good 6'2" WR with ball skills.

 

Did you see the All-22 of that play?   Allen stared him down for an extra second.  If he threw the ball a split second earlier, McKenzie walks in the end-zone.

 

It's here.

Edited October 22, 2019 by GG

[John from Riverside]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Allen is doing fine for a young QB.

 

If they had some playmaking talent around him on offense he wouldn't have to be defended.

 

Plays like that throw on the run to McKenzie in the end zone.............that is a hopeless throw to a smurf-gadget WR but that could be a TD with a good 6'2" WR with ball skills.

I agree with this...there were actually 2 throws of this kind to McKenzie in the game

 

Let McKenzie run gadget plays like jet sweeps and back up as a returner.....get someone on the edge that will go up and get a friggen ball.

[BADOLBILZ]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

John Brown and Cole Beasley called.  They said to say "Boo!"

 

I do take your point on the need for another WR

 

I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

But sitting in the stands you can hear that people are coming to grips with what the Bills actually got in Beasley..........they thought this guy was going to be like Edelman or some kind of YAC monster.   He is a small-play player.    That ball he couldn't hold onto along the sideline is a prime example of a throw that should be made to a receiver with a normal catch radius.........and the Bills are short on those.    The receiving corps is all one notch higher up the chain than they should be.     

[CommonCents]

Who wouldn’t give a 1st for Golladay? He would solve the problem. 

[ngbills]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Allen is doing fine for a young QB.

 

If they had some playmaking talent around him on offense he wouldn't have to be defended.

 

Plays like that throw on the run to McKenzie in the end zone.............that is a hopeless throw to a smurf-gadget WR but that could be a TD with a good 6'2" WR with ball skills.

That play is not the best example. Watch it on the all 22 and you see that Allen is both late throwing the ball and has awful footwork. He has gotten into a really bad habit this year not setting to make his throws. Its the danger of having a strong arm, always think you can just sling it. 

I do agree another playmaker on offense would make a big impact. I think a playmaker WR or possibly better a RB that is a threat out of the backfield. We have seen Yeldon catch some passes, imagine if that was legit RB back there doing that.

Edited October 22, 2019 by ngbills

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Did you see the All-22 of that play?   Allen stared him down for an extra second.  If he threw the ball a split second earlier, McKenzie walks in the end-zone.

 

It's here.

 

 

I saw the All-22 of that play as it was happening..........if Allen were Chad Pennington throwing with perfect anticipation and placement within 15 yards of the LOS then this WR corps would be a great fit.   He's not.   He didn't see John Brown open on a 3rd down pass that fell incomplete to Knox in the first half as well.   That's what you get with him.   He also buys time with his feet and creates opportunities for passing plays that a game manager could not.   

 

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, GG said:

Did you see the All-22 of that play?   Allen stared him down for an extra second.  If he threw the ball a split second earlier, McKenzie walks in the end-zone.

 

It's here.

 

Josh is staring him down for an extra second because McK isn't looking back for the ball.

[Seven-N-Nine]

Allen needs a Megatron.

[Don Otreply]

I liked Duke Williams route on his 23yard catch, he gets separation and hand catches the ball, and holds on while getting sandwiched between the turf and his defender, he is reliable, 

 

As well the pass to John Brown for the TD was exquisite, great pass, great catch. 

 

Go Bills!!!

[Seven-N-Nine]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Josh is staring him down for an extra second because McK isn't looking back for the ball.

 Yeah, I don't see that as open.

[Don Otreply]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

John Brown and Cole Beasley called.  They said to say "Boo!"

 

I do take your point on the need for another WR

I’m thinking Williams can make that a catch, what do you all think?

 

edit; it does look like Josh could have thrown the pass sooner, hard to say from the footage, grainy and a bit far away to tell. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Don Otreply

[Kelly the Dog]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No.........Duke would have still been at the 10 yard line when that ball was thrown.    He's routinely the slowest non-lineman on the field on any given play he's in there.    Nice chain mover and RZ option but not a solution to the lack of big plays in the passing game.

 

That's assuming they would have run the same pattern after Josh started scrambling. Duke seems to me to be the kind of guy who would run right to the endzone in that situation. I honestly didnt see where McKenzie came from originally on that play.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

Your statement was " If they had some playmaking talent around him on offense he wouldn't have to be defended. "

 

Beasley and Brown constitute playmaking talent on the field with Allen.  Since you evidently don't see them, they must be ghosts and say: "Boo!" to you.  (also an attempt to play on the Darnold/Jets 'ghosts' thing)

 

Quote

But sitting in the stands you can hear that people are coming to grips with what the Bills actually got in Beasley..........they thought this guy was going to be like Edelman or some kind of YAC monster.   He is a small-play player.    That ball he couldn't hold onto along the sideline is a prime example of a throw that should be made to a receiver with a normal catch radius.........and the Bills are short on those.    The receiving corps is all one notch higher up the chain than they should be.     

 

I actually agree with you that we're missing a #1 WR and as a consequence our WR corps is one notch up from where they should be.

 

But you have shifted the sticks here.  You started saying Allen needs to have "some playmaking talent".    Now you acknowledge that we do have "some playmaking talent", just not as much as we'd like to see and in particular, missing that "big WR with hands" guy that we fans maybe hoped Duke or Foster would be.

 

I think Allen would still need to be defended at times, myself.  He's young and aggressive and adjusting to the speed of the pro game and the confusion of pro coverage, and he's going to make bonehead plays now and then and have bad games.  He's not seeing guys who are open at times, he could do more with the talent he's got.

 

Beasley has done some good things and enabled Allen to build his skills throwing with anticipation across the middle.  Unfortunately, he's starting to have temper tantrums that could really hurt the team if the coaches don't talk him straight and persuade him to rein them in.  He could have gotten us a 15 yd penalty for taking off his helmet and throwing it into the sideline area while he was still on the field of play.  I don't mind the "small-play player" thing but don't be a flamin' ijit.

 

38 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

You mean like 82?

 

Perhaps.  But Duke doesn't have speed.  We need to see what he does as the season goes on.

[Kelly the Dog]

Duke doesn't have speed but that doesn't mean he wouldnt be in the endzone on that same play and a bigger target who can jump and get the ball.

[Doc]

22 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I have no idea what you mean by that.

 

But sitting in the stands you can hear that people are coming to grips with what the Bills actually got in Beasley..........they thought this guy was going to be like Edelman or some kind of YAC monster.   He is a small-play player.    That ball he couldn't hold onto along the sideline is a prime example of a throw that should be made to a receiver with a normal catch radius.........and the Bills are short on those.    The receiving corps is all one notch higher up the chain than they should be.     

 

Beasley was supposed to be a guy who got separation and had good hands.  That hasn't been the case.  Then again, if the Bills had traded for AB like you wanted...

[GoBills808]

26 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Did you see the All-22 of that play?   Allen stared him down for an extra second.  If he threw the ball a split second earlier, McKenzie walks in the end-zone.

 

It's here.

I see this play very differently...for me this is really poor play design. OK so Allen is only ever throwing right when they move him out of the pocket like this w/no blocking, but having Knox (I think, or whoever) come across on the sweep motion and continue through Allen's run option lane...this play is set up to pressure the high safety but there's no hi/lo concept, both wideouts run their routes in such a way that the safety can play over the top on all three options without having to spy Allen should he decide to take off and run. The post route opposite the wideout clearing the safety for McKenzie needs to be cut five yards shallower than the other to engage the safety properly, and whoever that TE is literally CANNOT just jog across Allen's run option...he needs to turn straight upfield once he hits the right hash. As designed this is either almost always an incompletion, or sometimes an INT...it requires a perfect throw on the run against a safety who 1- has pretty comfortable leverage on all 3 routes deep into their development and 2-can play pass the entire time because the TE's route brings a LB into Allen's running lane, which in this play is (I am almost 100% sure) the safety's responsibility to spy.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Beasley was supposed to be a guy who got separation and had good hands.  That hasn't been the case.  Then again, if the Bills had traded for AB like you wanted...

 

Beasley gets separation on short routes but he still has the catch radius of a junior high school kid.

 

[ngbills]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I see this play very differently...for me this is really poor play design. OK so Allen is only ever throwing right when they move him out of the pocket like this w/no blocking, but having Knox (I think, or whoever) come across on the sweep motion and continue through Allen's run option lane...this play is set up to pressure the high safety but there's no hi/lo concept, both wideouts run their routes in such a way that the safety can play over the top on all three options without having to spy Allen should he decide to take off and run. The post route opposite the wideout clearing the safety for McKenzie needs to be cut five yards shallower than the other to engage the safety properly, and whoever that TE is literally CANNOT just jog across Allen's run option...he needs to turn straight upfield once he hits the right hash. As designed this is either almost always an incompletion, or sometimes an INT...it requires a perfect throw on the run against a safety who 1- has pretty comfortable leverage on all 3 routes deep into their development and 2-can play pass the entire time because the TE's route brings a LB into Allen's running lane, which in this play is (I am almost 100% sure) the safety's responsibility to spy.

Agreed on the play design. I hate plays that our designed to be one read. You watch this develop and its either McK or throw the ball away. Your other guys are just clearing out space. Allen takes too much time to throw so the coverage has time to get over to cover McK. Rather than have your WR on the left side run the slant, if he runs a shallow drag route you may now give Allen a secondary option. 

[BigDingus]

46 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No.........Duke would have still been at the 10 yard line when that ball was thrown.    He's routinely the slowest non-lineman on the field on any given play he's in there.    Nice chain mover and RZ option but not a solution to the lack of big plays in the passing game.

 

 

John Brown has been open downfield many, many times this year. The passes just haven't been on target.

At least twice a game he's got his man well beat, sometimes Allen sees him, sometimes he doesn't. But when he does, you can be sure the pass won't connect. Be open deep isn't the problem, it's timing, touch & accuracy that are the problems. 

The pass Fitzpatrick made over 2 DBs hitting his WR in stride on the sideline is a pass we rarely see Allen make. And if it's just the WR open with nothing but the endzone in front of them, definitely won't connect.

Not saying Allen can't fix this, this is another one of those things (along with his tendency to stare down his receiver) that can be corrected. He just needs to really spend some extra reps with these guys, especially Brown, and figure out his own strength. You can almost always tell the second the ball is released if it'll be on target with Josh. You just see how quick the ball is released + the arc on the ball and know there's no way a WR will be fast enough to make it to where that ball is heading.

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Your statement was " If they had some playmaking talent around him on offense he wouldn't have to be defended. "

 

Beasley and Brown constitute playmaking talent on the field with Allen.  Since you evidently don't see them, they must be ghosts and say: "Boo!" to you.  (also an attempt to play on the Darnold/Jets 'ghosts' thing)

 

 

I actually agree with you that we're missing a #1 WR and as a consequence our WR corps is one notch up from where they should be.

 

But you have shifted the sticks here.  You started saying Allen needs to have "some playmaking talent".    Now you acknowledge that we do have "some playmaking talent", just not as much as we'd like to see and in particular, missing that "big WR with hands" guy that we fans maybe hoped Duke or Foster would be.

 

I think Allen would still need to be defended at times, myself.  He's young and aggressive and adjusting to the speed of the pro game and the confusion of pro coverage, and he's going to make bonehead plays now and then and have bad games.  He's not seeing guys who are open at times, he could do more with the talent he's got.

 

Beasley has done some good things and enabled Allen to build his skills throwing with anticipation across the middle.  Unfortunately, he's starting to have temper tantrums that could really hurt the team if the coaches don't talk him straight and persuade him to rein them in.  He could have gotten us a 15 yd penalty for taking off his helmet and throwing it into the sideline area while he was still on the field of play.  I don't mind the "small-play player" thing but don't be a flamin' ijit.

 

 

Perhaps.  But Duke doesn't have speed.  We need to see what he does as the season goes on.

  

No.

 

The only player in the Bills receiving corps who I would call a "playmaker" is Brown.

 

You need more than one.

 

It would be nice to have 3 or 4 guys who could rip off a big play on any given down without Daboll having to scheme the opponents pants down.

 

That's not going to happen

 

But adding a true #1 would also create better matchups across the board.    Better matchups means easier reads.   In that regard adding one true playmaker could create a lot of synergy in the passing game.

[ngbills]

1 minute ago, BigDingus said:

 

John Brown has been open downfield many, many times this year. The passes just haven't been on target.

At least twice a game he's got his man well beat, sometimes Allen sees him, sometimes he doesn't. But when he does, you can be sure the pass won't connect. Be open deep isn't the problem, it's timing, touch & accuracy that are the problems. 

The pass Fitzpatrick made over 2 DBs hitting his WR in stride on the sideline is a pass we rarely see Allen make. And if it's just the WR open with nothing but the endzone in front of them, definitely won't connect.

Not saying Allen can't fix this, this is another one of those things (along with his tendency to stare down his receiver) that can be corrected. He just needs to really spend some extra reps with these guys, especially Brown, and figure out his own strength. You can almost always tell the second the ball is released if it'll be on target with Josh. You just see how quick the ball is released + the arc on the ball and know there's no way a WR will be fast enough to make it to where that ball is heading.

Average NFL QB's have to hit wide open WR's. The great ones can even place the ball in there when a guy is covered. But when you have a few yards of separation you have to make that pass. 

[BigDingus]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

Average NFL QB's have to hit wide open WR's. The great ones can even place the ball in there when a guy is covered. But when you have a few yards of separation you have to make that pass. 

 

Absolutely right. 

This is one of the most frustrating things about Allen. He was only drafted on his potential, not his actual on field play. The only real things he seemed good at was deep ball accuracy & throwing on the run.

For whatever reason, he was dead last in the league last year on deep ball accuracy, and that's carried over into this season. But this year it's more noticeable because we see how open some of these guys are, and how the only thing stopping them from an easy TD is ball placement. 

Last year there were some easy TD's that didn't happen because he was underthrowing the ball & the WR would have to stop & come back for it instead of catching it in stride. This year receivers don't even have a chance to catch the pass more often than not. It's just thrown in their general direction but nowhere near where they could make a play on it.

[DRA3196]

As this offense continues to gel, Josh will look better and better as the season goes on. He just needs to remember at the beginning of the game that it is a marathon not a sprint. The more controlled he plays the better he looks. By December our offense should be rolling. Patience is key.

Edited October 23, 2019 by DRA3196

[Coach Tuesday]

Confirms what I saw with my own eyes re Oliver.  We had one poster in the gameday threads declaring him a bust, claiming he wasn’t making any impact - that poster knows nothing about football but that doesn’t stop him from bloviating his opinions here on a daily basis.

[GG]

56 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I saw the All-22 of that play as it was happening..........if Allen were Chad Pennington throwing with perfect anticipation and placement within 15 yards of the LOS then this WR corps would be a great fit.   He's not.   He didn't see John Brown open on a 3rd down pass that fell incomplete to Knox in the first half as well.   That's what you get with him.   He also buys time with his feet and creates opportunities for passing plays that a game manager could not.   

 

I don't disagree with that, and that's why I'm saying that trading for a WR would be a waste of a draft pick because he still doesn't use them fully.  

[buffaloboyinATL]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Confirms what I saw with my own eyes re Oliver.  We had one poster in the gameday threads declaring him a bust, claiming he wasn’t making any impact - that poster knows nothing about football but that doesn’t stop him from bloviating his opinions here on a daily basis.

I am so dying to go back and search for The culprit now.

[Real McClappy]

20 minutes ago, DRA3196 said:

As this offense continues to gel, Josh will look better and better as the season goes on. He just needs to remember at the beginning of the game that it is a marathon not a race. The more controlled he plays the better he looks. By December our offense should be rolling. Patience is key.

Like your confidence and hope your right, I feel the exact same way for the record. 

 

He needs to find that 4th qtr swagger in full games. He currently has the best 4th quarter QBR in the NFL at like 139 or something silly like that.  Once the Deep balls start dropping late in the year accurately = Look out!

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/josh-allen-leads-nfl-quarterbacks-in-this-category-plus-8-other-noteworthy-numbe

 

Anything can happen in the playoffs.

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Real McCoy