Gruden's destruction of the Raiders

[eball]

Does Mark Davis ever look in a mirror?  I mean, seriously...ever?

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Big whoop.    Most head coaches want "their people" and will do whatever it takes to make that happen.    It's not unique to Gruden.   Defense-oriented coaches who play a 3-4 scheme will jettison players who fit a 4-3.   Offense-minded coaches who play air raid schemes will get rid of ground and pound guys.      

 

What the "other guy" did to get to 12-4 is irrelevant to them (but sadly not the fans, who everyone knows will spend their $$$ no matter what).    They're the #### of the walk until they're not, and will act accordingly...

My point is that they had a good roster. It was quite talented. They probably would have gone 13-3 if not for the fact that Carr got hurt in the second last game of the season. More precisely, is it a good idea on any planet to get rid of Mack - one of the best players in the league - for draft picks?

[Lurker]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

My point is that they had a good roster. It was quite talented. They probably would have gone 13-3 if not for the fact that Carr got hurt in the second last game of the season. More precisely, is it a good idea on any planet to get rid of Mack - one of the best players in the league - for draft picks?

 

And yet, it happens over and over and over.     

 

It probably happened back in Fred Flintstone's day, when Mr. Slate hired Knute Rock-knee to make the Bedrock Buffalo's into more of a running team...

 

 

[thunderingsquid]

Wow, I've never seen a blue box warning before.  This must be a serious thread.

 

With that in mind, yes the Raiders are meeting the scientific definition of imploding by all measurements and clinical criteria.  

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

This is both well-reported and really, really damning: https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/09/06/raiders-jon-gruden-mike-mayock-antonio-brown-mark-davis

 

 

 

I'm not a Gruden believer, but I don't see anything terribly damning there.

 

Rebuilds suck, it's the nature of the beast.

 

The question is what happens in the third, fourth and fifth years. I think Gruden's going to fail there, but that could easily be dead wrong. I hate the move they made to get rid of Mack. But if they're competing at a very high level another couple of years down the road, it will be a non-issue.

[thunderingsquid]

As a guy that grew up playing legos at Marc Badain's house, I actually feel bad for the organization.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Badain

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

They were 12-4 two years before.

 

 

Yes. But also 6-10 one year before.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Are you under the impression that Mayock is at the helm of that ship?

 

he's swabbing the Poop Deck...........

[K-9]

1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

he's swabbing the Poop Deck...........

Yep. Which is why I don’t think he’s long for that job. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Yep. Which is why I don’t think he’s long for that job. 

 

...not sure about you bud, but if I wanted the turd out and was overruled by Chuckie/Davis, I'd resign in a nanosecond.....GM or puppet?.......ZERO respect....could return to NFLN & his draft analysis/consulting work for NFL teams and possibly get another GM shot down the road by sticking to his principles....

[bigK14094]

Can't hang that fiasco of a stadium in Vega on Gruden.  I drove by there a couple of months ago.  $6 billion.....and right on the Strip.   Going to be a lot of trouble when the black and silver fans show up in Vegas....will the locals tolerate rowdies?......stay tuned and buy lots of popcorn...you are not going to want to miss a minute of this slow motion fiasco.

[reddogblitz]

I'm still stunned Chucky is doing this whole "rebuild" nonsense.  I thought he'd try to land on a team with a QB on a team that's not that far away.  I thought the Raiders fit with Carr and them going 12-4 two years before.  I think he's nuts and very well may crash and burn.

[Rocky Landing]

5 hours ago, bigK14094 said:

Can't hang that fiasco of a stadium in Vega on Gruden.  I drove by there a couple of months ago.  $6 billion.....and right on the Strip.   Going to be a lot of trouble when the black and silver fans show up in Vegas....will the locals tolerate rowdies?......stay tuned and buy lots of popcorn...you are not going to want to miss a minute of this slow motion fiasco.

Are you kidding? Vegas thrives on such people. It is their lifeblood. Vegas will take all their money, chew them up, and crap out their bones. Vegas hosts the likes of the Hell's Angels, the Ultimate UFC Fan convention, and the AVN Adult Entertainment Expo (which is a hoot, btw). They can handle a bunch of dopey sports fans dressed up in cheap cosplay costumes. In fact, they have an annual cosplay convention, and it is every bit as drunk, and nerdy as the Raiders fans are. Trust me, Vegas knows how to handle rowdy drunks. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Rocky Landing

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Lurker said:

Seems like a tabloid / LAMP-type article to me.  I stopped reading at this:

 

    "Only 10 members of the Raiders’ 53-man roster—and just six offensive and defensive starters—have been with the team since before Gruden’s return."

 

If that's a slag on Chucky, then couldn't the same thing be said for the Bills and McBeane?    Or most NFL head coaches coming to a new team...

 

Well, here's the difference: in 2015, the Raiders went 12-4.  Then they backslid to 6-10 the next year.  But usually when you have a roster capable of 12-4, you look at what is the missing piece or pieces, not at a total rebuild.

 

Gruden may have shipped off a true generational talent in Khalil Mack, and a very very good WR in Cooper, and for what?  Why?

[BobbyC81]

5 hours ago, fl az fan said:

Probably because he feels the Circus is just beginning with AB and the Raiders. Not ending just because he will play this Sunday!

Like most of us

 

Next, Brown will be seen on the sideline yelling at Carr.

 

 

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

I'm still stunned Chucky is doing this whole "rebuild" nonsense.  I thought he'd try to land on a team with a QB on a team that's not that far away.  I thought the Raiders fit with Carr and them going 12-4 two years before.  I think he's nuts and very well may crash and burn.

 

Good take.  Knock on wood if you’re with me.

Edited September 6, 2019 by ColeB

[Lurker]

47 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, here's the difference: in 2016, the Raiders went 12-4.  Then they backslid to 6-10 the next year.  But usually when you have a roster capable of 12-4, you look at what is the missing piece or pieces, not at a total rebuild.

 

Gruden may have shipped off a true generational talent in Khalil Mack, and a very very good WR in Cooper, and for what?  Why?

 

 

Who cares about 2016???    This is the Not For Long league we're talking about.    What somebody else did in the past is a fart in the wind when it comes to the future.

 

Here's why Chucky was hired, aside from Mark Davis' somewhat odd man crush on him...

 

2017:

 

Tm	W	L	W-L%	PF	PA	PD	MoV	SoS	SRS	OSRS	DSRS
AFC West
Kansas City Chiefs*	10	6	.625	415	339	76	4.8	-1.3	3.4	3.8	-0.3
Los Angeles Chargers	9	7	.563	355	272	83	5.2	-1.5	3.6	-0.3	4.0
Oakland Raiders	6	10	.375	301	373	-72	-4.5	-0.2	-4.7	-3.0	-1.8
Denver Broncos	5	11	.313	289	382	-93	-5.8	-0.9	-6.7	-3.9	-2.9

Schedule & Game Results

										Score		Offense					Defense					Expected Points
Week	Day	Date				OT	Rec		Opp	Tm	Opp	1stD	TotYd	PassY	RushY	TO	1stD	TotYd	PassY	RushY	TO	Offense	Defense	Sp. Tms
1	Sun	September 10	1:00PM ET	boxscore	W		1-0	@	Tennessee Titans	26	16	22	359	250	109		21	350	255	95		12.55	-9.12	7.62
2	Sun	September 17	4:05PM ET	boxscore	W		2-0		New York Jets	45	20	21	410	230	180		17	271	145	126	2	27.55	-6.23	2.56
3	Sun	September 24	8:30PM ET	boxscore	L		2-1	@	Washington Redskins	10	27	7	128	96	32	3	18	472	356	116	2	-20.15	-9.43	13.27
4	Sun	October 1	4:25PM ET	boxscore	L		2-2	@	Denver Broncos	10	16	11	254	230	24	1	16	298	155	143		-12.83	3.11	6.17
5	Sun	October 8	4:05PM ET	boxscore	L		2-3		Baltimore Ravens	17	30	15	245	137	108	1	19	365	222	143		-7.57	-11.25	3.62
6	Sun	October 15	4:25PM ET	boxscore	L		2-4		Los Angeles Chargers	16	17	15	274	165	109	2	20	343	263	80	1	-4.48	-3.52	7.48
7	Thu	October 19	8:25PM ET	boxscore	W		3-4		Kansas City Chiefs	31	30	32	505	417	88		19	425	331	94		27.92	-18.99	-8.52
8	Sun	October 29	1:00PM ET	boxscore	L		3-5	@	Buffalo Bills	14	34	23	367	313	54	4	17	331	165	166		-4.30	-4.35	-7.44
9	Sun	November 5	8:30PM ET	boxscore	W		4-5	@	Miami Dolphins	27	24	20	379	295	84	2	23	395	309	86	1	11.14	-8.10	-0.30
10									Bye Week
11	Sun	November 19	4:25PM ET	boxscore	L		4-6		New England Patriots	8	33	21	344	235	109	2	25	421	332	89		1.26	-23.44	-2.48
12	Sun	November 26	4:25PM ET	boxscore	W		5-6		Denver Broncos	21	14	21	348	244	104	1	12	216	160	56	1	5.41	7.40	-4.87
13	Sun	December 3	4:25PM ET	boxscore	W		6-6		New York Giants	24	17	18	401	282	119	1	15	265	200	65	2	4.22	5.60	0.84
14	Sun	December 10	1:00PM ET	boxscore	L		6-7	@	Kansas City Chiefs	15	26	15	268	198	70	3	23	408	243	165	1	-2.49	-7.90	0.27
15	Sun	December 17	8:30PM ET	boxscore	L		6-8		Dallas Cowboys	17	20	19	293	171	122	1	21	330	204	126	2	5.20	-6.11	-2.88
16	Mon	December 25	8:30PM ET	boxscore	L		6-9	@	Philadelphia Eagles	10	19	13	274	137	137	5	12	216	138	78	2	-28.59	20.77	-1.32
17	Sun	December 31	4:25PM ET	boxscore	L		6-10	@	Los Angeles Chargers	10	30	14	336	231	105	2	26	495	380	115		-3.91	-23.24	9.97

 

 

[Johnnycage46]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

 

Who cares about 2016???    This is the Not For Long league we're talking about.    What somebody else did in the past is a fart in the wind when it comes to the future.

 

Here's why Chucky was hired, aside from Mark Davis' somewhat odd man crush on him...

 

2017:

 

Tm	W	L	W-L%	PF	PA	PD	MoV	SoS	SRS	OSRS	DSRS
AFC West
Kansas City Chiefs*	10	6	.625	415	339	76	4.8	-1.3	3.4	3.8	-0.3
Los Angeles Chargers	9	7	.563	355	272	83	5.2	-1.5	3.6	-0.3	4.0
Oakland Raiders	6	10	.375	301	373	-72	-4.5	-0.2	-4.7	-3.0	-1.8
Denver Broncos	5	11	.313	289	382	-93	-5.8	-0.9	-6.7	-3.9	-2.9

Schedule & Game Results

										Score		Offense					Defense					Expected Points
Week	Day	Date				OT	Rec		Opp	Tm	Opp	1stD	TotYd	PassY	RushY	TO	1stD	TotYd	PassY	RushY	TO	Offense	Defense	Sp. Tms
1	Sun	September 10	1:00PM ET	boxscore	W		1-0	@	Tennessee Titans	26	16	22	359	250	109		21	350	255	95		12.55	-9.12	7.62
2	Sun	September 17	4:05PM ET	boxscore	W		2-0		New York Jets	45	20	21	410	230	180		17	271	145	126	2	27.55	-6.23	2.56
3	Sun	September 24	8:30PM ET	boxscore	L		2-1	@	Washington Redskins	10	27	7	128	96	32	3	18	472	356	116	2	-20.15	-9.43	13.27
4	Sun	October 1	4:25PM ET	boxscore	L		2-2	@	Denver Broncos	10	16	11	254	230	24	1	16	298	155	143		-12.83	3.11	6.17
5	Sun	October 8	4:05PM ET	boxscore	L		2-3		Baltimore Ravens	17	30	15	245	137	108	1	19	365	222	143		-7.57	-11.25	3.62
6	Sun	October 15	4:25PM ET	boxscore	L		2-4		Los Angeles Chargers	16	17	15	274	165	109	2	20	343	263	80	1	-4.48	-3.52	7.48
7	Thu	October 19	8:25PM ET	boxscore	W		3-4		Kansas City Chiefs	31	30	32	505	417	88		19	425	331	94		27.92	-18.99	-8.52
8	Sun	October 29	1:00PM ET	boxscore	L		3-5	@	Buffalo Bills	14	34	23	367	313	54	4	17	331	165	166		-4.30	-4.35	-7.44
9	Sun	November 5	8:30PM ET	boxscore	W		4-5	@	Miami Dolphins	27	24	20	379	295	84	2	23	395	309	86	1	11.14	-8.10	-0.30
10									Bye Week
11	Sun	November 19	4:25PM ET	boxscore	L		4-6		New England Patriots	8	33	21	344	235	109	2	25	421	332	89		1.26	-23.44	-2.48
12	Sun	November 26	4:25PM ET	boxscore	W		5-6		Denver Broncos	21	14	21	348	244	104	1	12	216	160	56	1	5.41	7.40	-4.87
13	Sun	December 3	4:25PM ET	boxscore	W		6-6		New York Giants	24	17	18	401	282	119	1	15	265	200	65	2	4.22	5.60	0.84
14	Sun	December 10	1:00PM ET	boxscore	L		6-7	@	Kansas City Chiefs	15	26	15	268	198	70	3	23	408	243	165	1	-2.49	-7.90	0.27
15	Sun	December 17	8:30PM ET	boxscore	L		6-8		Dallas Cowboys	17	20	19	293	171	122	1	21	330	204	126	2	5.20	-6.11	-2.88
16	Mon	December 25	8:30PM ET	boxscore	L		6-9	@	Philadelphia Eagles	10	19	13	274	137	137	5	12	216	138	78	2	-28.59	20.77	-1.32
17	Sun	December 31	4:25PM ET	boxscore	L		6-10	@	Los Angeles Chargers	10	30	14	336	231	105	2	26	495	380	115		-3.91	-23.24	9.97

 

 

Is this the Matrix??

[4merper4mer]

14 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

Are you kidding? Vegas thrives on such people. It is their lifeblood. Vegas will take all their money, chew them up, and crap out their bones. Vegas hosts the likes of the Hell's Angels, the Ultimate UFC Fan convention, and the AVN Adult Entertainment Expo (which is a hoot, btw). They can handle a bunch of dopey sports fans dressed up in cheap cosplay costumes. In fact, they have an annual cosplay convention, and it is every bit as drunk, and nerdy as the Raiders fans are. Trust me, Vegas knows how to handle rowdy drunks. 

Wait a minute.  People dress up like Bill Cosby and have date rape conventions?  Vegas is sicker than I thought.

[Nanker]

Strange life forms in that organization.

 

Perhaps there's a particular seductive appeal that franchise has...

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’d have expected the political message mod warning in the “cracker” thread.

 

That's cuz you didn't see this one before I took out the trash - and because in that thread, a certain amount of sensitive, politics/race relations discussion is germaine to the football topic.  But it did get locked after people posted about half a dozen photos of crackers ?‍♂️

[Formerly Allan in MD]

On 9/6/2019 at 12:46 PM, Bangarang said:

I’ll be shocked if 3 years from now Gruden is still the HC.

His brother in DC won't last near that long.

[billsfan_34]

On 9/6/2019 at 12:43 PM, Rico said:

They may be a mess now, but I think all will be good once they make the move. Vegas Raiders!

Internal organization will still be the same- I respectfully disagree. They may need to realign. Time will tell.

[PlayoffsPlease]

Antonio Brown saga cost the Raiders zero cash and zero cap hit. It the literal equivalent of signing a guy off the street then cutting him.  Feel free to hate Gruden and Maydock. But this turned out be a high reward zero risk situation, as they managed it.

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Antonio Brown saga cost the Raiders zero cash and zero cap hit. It the literal equivalent of signing a guy off the street then cutting him.  Feel free to hate Gruden and Maydock. But this turned out be a high reward zero risk situation, as they managed it.

 

Did you forget the (high) 3rd and 5th they gave the Steelers?

[PlayoffsPlease]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Did you forget the (high) 3rd and 5th they gave the Steelers?

yes

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

yes

 

You also missed the drama that no street free agent brings.

[PlayoffsPlease]

Just now, Doc said:

 

You also missed the drama that no street free agent brings.

drama is cost free. it only affects fans. 

[3rdand12]

On 9/6/2019 at 3:46 PM, BillsVet said:

 

I've always thought, given the haircut, Mark Davis woulda fit in well with Harry and Lloyd in another Dumb and Dumber movie. 

notice any similarities with Gruden and Davis hairstyles.

?

[Doc]

Just now, PlayoffsPlease said:

drama is cost free. it only affects fans. 

 

You think Gruden, Mayock and the Raiders players weren't affected?  He was supposed to be an integral part of their team/its success. 

[3rdand12]

22 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

I'm still stunned Chucky is doing this whole "rebuild" nonsense.  I thought he'd try to land on a team with a QB on a team that's not that far away.  I thought the Raiders fit with Carr and them going 12-4 two years before.  I think he's nuts and very well may crash and burn.

yep

[PlayoffsPlease]

Just now, Doc said:

 

You think Gruden, Mayock and the Raiders players weren't affected?  He was supposed to be an integral part of their team/its success. 

I think you were more affected than any of them. They are pros in a business where injuries and other factors change the personnel on a more or less constant basis. 

[3rdand12]

19 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Antonio Brown saga cost the Raiders zero cash and zero cap hit. It the literal equivalent of signing a guy off the street then cutting him.  Feel free to hate Gruden and Maydock. But this turned out be a high reward zero risk situation, as they managed it.

?

 it made headlines if that is what you mean

[PlayoffsPlease]

1 minute ago, 3rdand12 said:

?

 it made headlines if that is what you mean

I am sure Gruden has a clause in his contract requiring him to minimize headlines. 

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

I think you were more affected than any of them. They are pros in a business where injuries and other factors change the personnel on a more or less constant basis. 

 

If by "affected" you mean "laughing my ass of at what was wholly predicable," then sure. 

[Nextmanup]

22 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

drama is cost free. it only affects fans. 

This is a good point.  So much is made of the "distraction" by fans or the media...watching Hard Knocks you wonder how much any of that stuff actually exists in reality.  I'm sure the players are all concerned with themselves first and foremost, and worrying about what they need to worry about. They all know AB is a great player, so need to worry about that end of it.

 

I would think the average player kind of stayed out of the whole thing and just quietly hoped it all worked out in the end and AB made the team better.  Highly doubt this bothered many players.

 

For sure this bugged Gruden and Mayock though!  But I'm talking about the players.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Nextmanup

[PlayoffsPlease]

37 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

If by "affected" you mean "laughing my ass of at what was wholly predicable," then sure. 

Its clear this is impacting your  emotions far more than Grudens. 

[Doc]

Just now, PlayoffsPlease said:

Its clear this is impacting your  emotions far more than Grudens. 

 

Yup.  Laughter is great for the emotions. 

 

But continue with the "the Raiders lost nothing by pursuing AB" theory. 

[PlayoffsPlease]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Yup.  Laughter is great for the emotions. 

 

But continue with the "the Raiders lost nothing by pursuing AB" theory. 

I agreed they lost the draft picks. Continuing fighting your straw men.  You are winning against them. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

2 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

I think you were more affected than any of them. They are pros in a business where injuries and other factors change the personnel on a more or less constant basis. 

Actually Gruden said in his presser today that it had been an emotional time for him and he was upset. This one stung him and you can tell, he's totally bummed he didn't have a chance to work with AB during the season.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxsB56uv9-k

 

 

 

[QCity]

The Raiders just paid 2 draft picks so the Pats could sign AB.