2016 NFL Draft

[Zerovoltz]

7 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Isn't Ragland a pretty good LB for the Chiefs?

 

This makes me think about Sabres GM Tim Murray. We got rid of him because of deals involving Robyn Lenher, Evander Kane, Ryan O'Reilly, even JT Compher. So who was the problem, really?

 

No.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

No.

 

Harsh. But true.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

 

Don't bang the table it spills all the beer..

Bang the chick, not the table Khrushchev

[Albany,n.y.]

8 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

Why do people here count players that are playing on other teams as misses? The Bills had A LOT of former players in the conference championships last season.

There's a big difference. The former players who were in the conference championships were guys who either played out their rookie contracts and left as free agents (some for big $) or were traded for something valuable (like Watkins for a 2nd & Gaines).  Meanwhile, all of the 2016 draft picks with the exception of Lawson were gone before opening day 1 season later with virtually nothing in return and most of the ones still in the league are being viewed as camp bodies with little chance of being on a 2019 NFL 53 man roster.  2016's draft had a lot of misses.  

[machine gun kelly]

On 6/20/2019 at 3:16 PM, Seasons1992 said:

All regimes after John Butler were really terrible. 

 

 I believe Beane will eventually become the most significant GM since Butler.  Butler’s only downfall is he didn’t manage the cap well.  He did have a great eye for talent.  That late 90’s defense was probably the best I can remember.

[SoCal Deek]

I look back at that draft class and see a bunch of big name players from big name, winning schools like Clemson, Alabama and Ohio State. I have to wonder if the problem stemmed from the draft itself or the feeble coaching that followed.

[Julio Hopkins]

I'm not a fan of Whaley for a lot of reasons, but the 2016 draft was 100% on Rex.  They had to waste picks on rebuilding the defense for him.

[Seoulofstone]

On 6/21/2019 at 3:12 AM, BullBuchanan said:

 

Why do people here count players that are playing on other teams as misses? The Bills had A LOT of former players in the conference championships last season.

 

  That's terrible logic. I mean Vlad Ducasse played in the playoffs for the BIlls. He must be some player.

 

  I wonder if fans of those teams consider them vital components?

[machine gun kelly]

This draft is depressing as even Shaq is on the bubble.  I know Polian would commonly say if you're hitting on 60% or better you're in the ballpark of a very good GM.  He said his lifetime as well as Ron Wolf, both in the HOF were at57-60%.  Gil Brandt going in this year said the same thing.  I have real hope though and confidence with this administration.  I don't blame the Pegulas for making the mistake on Ryan and Whaley as they were new owners, but in my opinion, they did it right on the second round.

[formerlyofCtown]

On 6/20/2019 at 2:34 PM, Rigotz said:

Out of curiosity, I was taking a look at previous Whaley regime drafts. What a mess.

 

2016:

1st Round: Shaq Lawson - declined 5th year option 

2nd Round: Reggie Ragland - traded for 4th round pick - no longer on team 

3rd Round: Adolphus Washington - practice squad player - no longer on team

4th Round: Cardale Jones - traded for 7th rounder - cut - no longer on team

5th Round: Jonathan Williams - practice squad player - no longer on team

6th Round: Kolby Listenbee - never played - no longer on team

6th Round - Kevon Seymour - traded for Kaelin Clay - both no longer on team

 

Everyone misses picks, but damn...

 

 

 

 

Jonathon Williams was not a practice squad player nor was Washington.  Williams had a very promising rookie season but could put down the doobie IIRC.  I really believe coaching has a lot to do with it.  The lone player left of this draft has come miles under the new coaching staff.

 

BTW Ragland is doing pretty good for KC.

Edited June 22, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[Seasons1992]

8 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

 

 I believe Beane will eventually become the most significant GM since Butler.  Butler’s only downfall is he didn’t manage the cap well.  He did have a great eye for talent.  That late 90’s defense was probably the best I can remember.

 

This is exactly true. We were in salary-cap hell back then, with stacked talent. 

And then it all fell apart for 15 years. The "Dark Ages."

[C.Biscuit97]

Whaley is the GM so he takes the blame (even though the Pegulas completely handcuffed him).  But compare that draft with his others.  Good players playing key roles all over the league.

 

Do you think Whaley wanted to destroy the number 3 defense in the nfl (one of the best in my history of being a Bills fan) for Rex’s system?  I put way more of that blame on Rex than Whaley.  I know a lot of people try to bash Whaley (who had the same record through 2 years as the new regime everyone loves) but imo, he was a good soldier and they killed him.  He should have gotten rid of Marrone when he decided to not play EJ (right or wrong you have to let your young qb play. I’m not the biggest Allen fan but I’d flip out if he got benched this year).  Then he should have been able to hire his own coach.  He was never given that chance, 

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, Seasons1992 said:

 

This is exactly true. We were in salary-cap hell back then, with stacked talent. 

And then it all fell apart for 15 years. The "Dark Ages."

John Butler was loyal to his players. To a fault. Kept them well past when they could have/should have been moved and we paid the cap price for that. But man, that last draft of his didn’t do us much good. Still, as bad as it was for us, those players went on to avg. five years in the league. Heck, even Flowers managed five. 

[BADOLBILZ]

52 minutes ago, K-9 said:

John Butler was loyal to his players. To a fault. Kept them well past when they could have/should have been moved and we paid the cap price for that. But man, that last draft of his didn’t do us much good. Still, as bad as it was for us, those players went on to avg. five years in the league. Heck, even Flowers managed five. 

 

 

And you know what.............back then if you mentioned things like that here in 1998 it was akin too questioning McBeane now...........people didn't even believe a cap crisis would ever happen.   

 

I supported Butler and was a big "don't know what we have til' he's gone" guy about his personnel moves.............. but I knew then that they were going to have to handle the impending cap crisis efficiently to avoid losing the momentum they had built up.

 

Donahoe used the cap crisis as an excuse to tear it down and build the Bills in an entirely different image.............unnecessarily cutting Ted Washington and tearing out their identity(the stout 3-4 defense) was the biggest catalyst for the drought.    They expended massive assets trying to build a defense with expensive parts but never re-captured the heart that 1990's defense had in spades from years of holding leads late in games and getting the team into the playoffs year in and out.

 

We then had to watch Ted Washington stunningly spearhead a Bears defense to the best record in the NFC............and then play in January and win a SB with the Patriots over the next few seasons.

 

So when we watch regimes make decisions on players and then see them excel in January elsewhere there is relevance to Bills mistakes-past.

[Coach Tuesday]

I called for Whaley’s firing in the Shaq Lawson pick thread.  Should’ve been done right after that draft.

[GunnerBill]

19 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Jonathon Williams was not a practice squad player nor was Washington.  Williams had a very promising rookie season but could put down the doobie IIRC.  I really believe coaching has a lot to do with it.  The lone player left of this draft has come miles under the new coaching staff.

 

BTW Ragland is doing pretty good for KC.

 

Wrong Williams. That was Karlos. This is Jonathan. This one had feet made of lead. The only cut he ever made was a paper cut. 

[formerlyofCtown]

36 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Wrong Williams. That was Karlos. This is Jonathan. This one had feet made of lead. The only cut he ever made was a paper cut. 

Not the wrong Williams. I misremembered him playing better than that.  

[BillsfaninChicago]

The worse draft in my Bills fan lifetime was the 2000 draft but looking at this 2016 was closer to that than I realized.

[HappyDays]

On 6/22/2019 at 3:07 PM, formerlyofCtown said:

BTW Ragland is doing pretty good for KC.

 

Not sure where this narrative came from but he sucks there just like he did here. If an LB is called a "thumper" he shouldn't be taken anywhere near the top 2 rounds.

[Rocky Landing]

On 6/21/2019 at 8:40 AM, Albany,n.y. said:

There's a big difference. The former players who were in the conference championships were guys who either played out their rookie contracts and left as free agents (some for big $) or were traded for something valuable (like Watkins for a 2nd & Gaines).  Meanwhile, all of the 2016 draft picks with the exception of Lawson were gone before opening day 1 season later with virtually nothing in return and most of the ones still in the league are being viewed as camp bodies with little chance of being on a 2019 NFL 53 man roster.  2016's draft had a lot of misses.  

It's a fair point, but put it all into context: how many regimes for the Bills have lasted more than two years? 

Doug Marone: '13-14

Rex Ryan: '15-16

McD: '17- ??

A new coaching staff come in, and immediately cleans house. 

On 6/22/2019 at 6:57 AM, Seoulofstone said:

 

  That's terrible logic. I mean Vlad Ducasse played in the playoffs for the BIlls. He must be some player.

 

  I wonder if fans of those teams consider them vital components?

But, in the context of this thread, and with the history of the Bills hiring a new coaching staff every two-three years, it's not really accurate to slam the picks themselves simply because they are no longer with the Bills. If, after being let go by yet another new regime, they went on to have successful careers, you can't really say they were terrible players, or picks. Many just didn't fit the next regime to come in.

[BullBuchanan]

19 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

It's a fair point, but put it all into context: how many regimes for the Bills have lasted more than two years? 

Doug Marone: '13-14

Rex Ryan: '15-16

McD: '17- ??

A new coaching staff come in, and immediately cleans house. 

But, in the context of this thread, and with the history of the Bills hiring a new coaching staff every two-three years, it's not really accurate to slam the picks themselves simply because they are no longer with the Bills. If, after being let go by yet another new regime, they went on to have successful careers, you can't really say they were terrible players, or picks. Many just didn't fit the next regime to come in.

Pretty much. Comparing having a spot on the Bills roster is very much a different thing than the fact that the four teams that all played in the conference championships all saw enough of ex bills players to have them in their line-ups. These are all incredibly well runs organizations, while ours has been a dumpster fire for decades. We also had players on most of the semi-finals teams as well.

[Richard Noggin]

14 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Wrong Williams. That was Karlos. This is Jonathan. This one had feet made of lead. The only cut he ever made was a paper cut. 

Which makes it an even more puzzling pick, as I have personally witnessed Doug Whaley doing an unflattering imitation of Trent Richardson taking a handoff and trying to make a cut. He took like thirteen quick stomps forward/backward/sideways before moving forward. It was actually kind of funny. He did this in front of McCoy and a few other players and personnel, if I recall correctly. 

[Doc Brown]

Went back and looked at the instant take grades from the draft "experts."  The consensus by most were that Lawson and Ragland were a steal.  Prisco shockingly wasn't a fan of either. 

 

NFL.com grade (Chad Reuter):  A-

ESPN grade (Mel Kiper):  B

Pro Football Focus grade (Steve Palazzalo): A-

SB Nation (Dan Kadar):  A-

SI.com (Steve Burke): A-

New York Daily News (Ebenezer Samuel): A-

Sporting News (Vinnie Iyer): A-

Washington Post (Mark Maske): B

Bleacher Report (Chris Rolling): B

Rotoworld (Evan Silva): B-

USA Today (Lindsay Jones):  C

Walterfootball: A

CBS Sports (Pete Prisco): C

San Diego Tribune (Eddie Brown): A

 

[Seoulofstone]

8 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

But, in the context of this thread, and with the history of the Bills hiring a new coaching staff every two-three years, it's not really accurate to slam the picks themselves simply because they are no longer with the Bills. If, after being let go by yet another new regime, they went on to have successful careers, you can't really say they were terrible players, or picks. Many just didn't fit the next regime to come in.

 

True and I don't want to say that these guys are bad players. But equally the same applies in the opposite direction. They aren't epic Julio Jones -type game changers, who were 'ruined' by being Bills selections. They were good players who didn't fit the Bills scheme, and even at another team would probably have been overdrafted at the draft positions they were taken. Does that make them terrible picks? The best argument against that is Gilmore who had a successful move to NE but even then I don't have him as anywhere near the  best CB in the league as the hype that surrounds him would suggest. You'll never convince me that Sammy was worth his position in that draft although i won't argue that hes an above average receiver.

[C.Biscuit97]

Also, I would take the Whaley roster after 2 years over this current one.  Obviously, it will all depend on Allen.

[Albany,n.y.]

11 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

It's a fair point, but put it all into context: how many regimes for the Bills have lasted more than two years? 

Doug Marone: '13-14

Rex Ryan: '15-16

McD: '17- ??

A new coaching staff come in, and immediately cleans house. 

But, in the context of this thread, and with the history of the Bills hiring a new coaching staff every two-three years, it's not really accurate to slam the picks themselves simply because they are no longer with the Bills. If, after being let go by yet another new regime, they went on to have successful careers, you can't really say they were terrible players, or picks. Many just didn't fit the next regime to come in.

This is why a team should go for best player available over a player who fits a system.  Chances are pretty good that unless a player is drafted by one of the few franchises that have long term coaching stability, a good player will outlast his coaches.  Of the 32 current coaches 20 have been in their position fewer than 5 years.  When a 1st rounder signs, he signs a 4 year deal with a 5th year option.  Considering how nearly 2/3 of the 1st rounders are projected to have a longer commitment to the team than the coach, drafting a player to fit a system is GM malpractice.  The best, or worst, example was Ragland.  He was drafted because he fit Rex Ryan's system, with the Bills trading up 8 spots & giving up 2 extra 4ths.    He got hurt, never played a real down in Buffalo, Rex got fired & Ragland was a bad fit in the new coach's system.  So after spending a 2nd & 2 #4s, all the Bills got back was a 4th, not even in the next draft, which further devalues the pick they got.  They ended up using that pick as part of a 3 pick package to move up in the 3rd round & draft Knox.    

 

PS:  This is why unless Arizona feels that Josh Rosen is a total bust, they had no business drafting Murray & dumping Rosen for pennies on the dollar. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Albany,n.y.

[T master]

On 6/20/2019 at 1:58 PM, mannc said:

One of the worst drafts ever...thanks Whaley (and Wrex).

 

I think it was more so Rex !!

 

I would like to believe that Whaley was just doing what the coach wanted him to do seeing as Rex decided to change a top 10 Defense from a 4/3 to a 3/4 given the players didn't fit that scheme , and why not take a 4/3 DE first & put him in a 3/4 scheme (because his son played on the same team) & the rest of the players taken were just a reflection of a Ryan ran regime !!