Report: Bengals looking to trade WR John Ross

[Straight Hucklebuck]

8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I’m not saying Andy Dalton is great.  But he is a qb that has been to playoffs multiple times so it makes a lot more sense why they would have passed on Mahomes.  Still, I didn’t get the Ross pick for them.  It didn’t seem like a huge need.

It’s weird because he did have that combine time but he’s become a weird red zone threat.  He had 7 tds on 21 catches and 210 yards.  That’s like TE numbers, not small fast guy stats.

The Bengals lost Marvin Jones and Mohammed Sanu in the same free agent class, and their offense suffered for it. 

 

It was a definite need for them.

[billvernsays]

3 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Marcell Dareus was a semi-proven top-end talent (when he bothered to try) and he was traded for a 5th round pick.  Ross is younger and on a much cheaper contract, but has zero success so far.  Maybe he is worth a 5th as well, but I wouldn't trade more than that for him.

Dareus wasn’t traded for a 5th because he’s a 5th round talent however When you look at his contract vs his production that’s how you come up with the 5th round value. Ross is in a different spot, His contract is still pretty reasonable, but he hasn’t shown anything in the league yet. I think the pick we got for McCarron is the move. He could push McCloud and McKenzie for our burner spot, if any of the 3 work out as a long term WR it’s a win for Buffalo. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Reminds me of Goodwin.  Never reached potential here and really broke out with a new team.  Only to get injured again.

A fourth. Sure.  Nothing higher than that.  

[Da webster guy]

He was def overdrafted but if he were thrown into this year's WR heavy draft, i'd think Ross would go somewhere in 3rd round.

Not sure about work ethic, motivation, brains, personality etc.  That weighs huge with our team.

[26TrapDraw]

15 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I will say, when’s he not hurt, he finds a way to score.  Shocking pick though he was a good player in college.  Personally, I think it would be stupid for the Bengals to trade him now since his value is so low. 

 

But if it was for a 3rd or later, I’d be really interesting (depending on his physical). I love former 1st round picks who struggle on their first team.  

Agreed. Jerry Hughes says Hi.

[ProcessTruster]

17 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I will say, when’s he not hurt, he finds a way to score.  Shocking pick though he was a good player in college.  Personally, I think it would be stupid for the Bengals to trade him now since his value is so low. 

 

But if it was for a 3rd or later, I’d be really interesting (depending on his physical). I love former 1st round picks who struggle on their first team.  

wasn't Kelvin Benjamin pretty much like this?

[BobChalmers]

For as little as the Bengals are probably asking (article says 5th), GET IT DONE!

 

18 hours ago, wppete said:

Yes it’s worth a trade. Give them a 4th round pick 

 

Sounds like they'd take even less than that, which makes it a no-brainer in this WR market.

Edited February 27, 2019 by BobChalmers

[stuvian]

Dude has serious jets. It's worth a look

[Doc]

Or just wait for them to release him.

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

wasn't Kelvin Benjamin pretty much like this?

No KB was very productive in Carolina early on. He had over 1000 yards as a rookie. He got phased out later. Ross had 0 yards as a rookie, and he wasn’t hurt the whole time. Marvin Lewis hated him. He improved last year but apparently not enough as Zac Taylor doesn’t want him 

[racketmaster]

I like the idea of having a speed guy paired with a qb who can launch the ball downfield. Think Mahomes and Tyreek Hill connection. I realize Ross is not as good as Hill but he really has been playing with a weaker armed quarterback that has not allowed him to maximize his strength. 

 

Getting Ross with a mid round pick (4th round) would allow the Bills to focus on building the offensive line and tight end position. Bills would have enough outside weapons in Foster, Williams and Ross as they all bring different attributes to the table. If we could improve offensive line in free agency and 2nd round we could snag Hockenson in first and add a mid round running back. The weapons on offense would be much improved from last year. 

[Saint Doug]

I think this trading away our 4th for basically a bust is a bad idea. A 4th is a very valuable asset. For example, we picked up Taron Johnson in the 4th and even Milano in the 5th (we had no 4th 2 years ago). Would you trade either of them (or even a player as promising as them) for a player who has never played up to his potential? I’ll roll my dice in the draft. 

[racketmaster]

19 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Honestly, how many have we had now?  I really have trouble keeping track.

 

Matthews

Benjamin

Coleman

 

Is there another one that I am just not remembering?

I get the above wr moves have not worked out but they have mostly been minimal risks. 

Matthews came in a trade for Darby plus we got a 3rd round pick which was the real asset in the deal for a CB that did not fit our scheme. Essentially, Matthews was a throw in bonus player that did not work out. Had we traded Darby for a 3rd round pick and nothing else, it would be still a fair deal. 

 

Benjamin for a 3rd was a miss and probably the biggest mistake Beane has made thus far. But he took a shot on a player that had performed well early in his career and just lost it with knee injuries. This was still a 3rd round pick and a lot of 3rd round picks end up being busts so it is hard to kill Beane for this too much. We were unexpectedly in a playoff race and I think he felt compelled to try and make a move to help the team break the drought. 

 

Coleman for a 7th. The vast majority of 7th round picks fail so it was worth a shot at a former first round talent. We took Proehl in the 7th last year and cut him. That is the norm for that draft pick so we really did not lose anything. 

 

With Ross, the speed and talent is there. It really comes down to can he stay healthy. Likely, he is a Goodwin type that struggles with various leg injuries because he is such a quick twitch athlete. But during the brief periods Goodwin has been healthy he has been a threat and productive player. If we could get a 1000 yard season out of Ross for a 4th it might still be worth it if it helps us win for a year. 

 

So so even though it has not exactly worked out with the 3 previous moves, I like the idea of trading mid to low round picks for young 1st and 2nd round talents. Sooner or later you will hit on one of those deals and it can pay big dividends. Remember, Moulds was considered a bust after 2 years as well. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by racketmaster

[Putin]

22 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

I like the idea of having a speed guy paired with a qb who can launch the ball downfield. Think Mahomes and Tyreek Hill connection. I realize Ross is not as good as Hill but he really has been playing with a weaker armed quarterback that has not allowed him to maximize his strength. 

 

Getting Ross with a mid round pick (4th round) would allow the Bills to focus on building the offensive line and tight end position. Bills would have enough outside weapons in Foster, Williams and Ross as they all bring different attributes to the table. If we could improve offensive line in free agency and 2nd round we could snag Hockenson in first and add a mid round running back. The weapons on offense would be much improved from last year. 

Really?

By Bringing in Ross and Williams we can just move on and start working on OL/TE ? 

Even if we do trade for Ross I’m not even sure he or Williams are even making the team , both haven’t proven that they even belong in the NFL , we need to draft a stud a true # 1 WR , 

 

[racketmaster]

3 minutes ago, Saint Doug said:

I think this trading away our 4th for basically a bust is a bad idea. A 4th is a very valuable asset. For example, we picked up Taron Johnson in the 4th and even Milano in the 5th (we had no 4th 2 years ago). Would you trade either of them (or even a player as promising as them) for a player who has never played up to his potential? I’ll roll my dice in the draft. 

Recent Bills 4th and 5th round picks:

2018: Tarron Johnson, Siran Neal and Wyatt Teller

2017: Matt Millano and Nathan Peterman

2016: Cardale Jones and Jonathan Williams

2015: Karlos Williams

2014: Ross Cockrell and Cyril Richardson

2013: Duke Williams and Jonathan Meeks

2012: Ron Brooks, Zebre Sanders and Tank Carder

2011: D’Norris Searcy, Chris Hariston and Johnny White

2010: Marcus Easley and Ed Wang

 

I don’t want to minimize the value of a 4th or 5th round pick but it is relatively rare you are going to miss out on a really good player in those rounds. More often than not you are talking about special teams players and solid depth rather than difference makers. So I think it is worth the risk for the shot at a difference maker (elite speed guy that would be a good fit with a qb that has a rocket arm). 

[racketmaster]

28 minutes ago, Putin said:

Really?

By Bringing in Ross and Williams we can just move on and start working on OL/TE ? 

Even if we do trade for Ross I’m not even sure he or Williams are even making the team , both haven’t proven that they even belong in the NFL , we need to draft a stud a true # 1 WR , 

 

I believe Williams and Ross are top tier talents and Foster really showed flashes of being a number 1 or 2 wr last year. So do I believe the Bills would be done making moves at the wr position beyond next year, heck no. But you would be adding Williams and Ross into the mix plus you may still use a later draft pick or veteran free agent that comes at a reasonable price. Bills could again attack the wr position in 2020 if needed. 

 

In the meantime, we could focus our assets ($ and picks) on the line and tight end spot. A legit tight end like Hockenson could be huge and just as much of an impact as a wr. We have a lot of holes and still need help on defense and we only have so much $ and picks. And let's not forget that the RB position needs a major upgrade in talent and that can be a tremendous help to a young quarterback. Plus, rookie RBs are more likely to become impact players as opposed to wrs, especially if we werr to use a mid round pick.

 

Put another way, if Bills used a 4th or 5th on a wr would anybody be thinking that we just upgraded that spot? I think getting Ross instead has a better chance of helping us improve the wr spot next year. Its a risk but I think it is still worth taking. 

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by racketmaster

[blacklabel]

I can see them taking an honest look at this situation. They've been trying to add one of those small, burner-type receivers since Beane got here. They traded for that Kaelin Clay kid, he didn't work out. They drafted McCloud, picked up McKenzie off waivers, signed Victor Bolden off San Fran's practice squad. It's pretty clear that they really want a player that fits Ross' mold. I guess I wouldn't be surprised to hear Buffalo being kicked around as one of the teams with interest.

[freddyjj]

1 hour ago, racketmaster said:

I like the idea of having a speed guy paired with a qb who can launch the ball downfield. Think Mahomes and Tyreek Hill connection. I realize Ross is not as good as Hill but he really has been playing with a weaker armed quarterback that has not allowed him to maximize his strength. 

 

Getting Ross with a mid round pick (4th round) would allow the Bills to focus on building the offensive line and tight end position. Bills would have enough outside weapons in Foster, Williams and Ross as they all bring different attributes to the table. If we could improve offensive line in free agency and 2nd round we could snag Hockenson in first and add a mid round running back. The weapons on offense would be much improved from last year. 

Just some perspective.  Pats got Randy Moss from the Raiders for a 4th in 2007.  Granted he was 30 at the time but he was a multi time all pro

 

Bengals will likely get a 6th for Ross who has done nothing to date. 

 

[Saint Doug]

36 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

Recent Bills 4th and 5th round picks:

2018: Tarron Johnson, Siran Neal and Wyatt Teller

2017: Matt Millano and Nathan Peterman

2016: Cardale Jones and Jonathan Williams

2015: Karlos Williams

2014: Ross Cockrell and Cyril Richardson

2013: Duke Williams and Jonathan Meeks

2012: Ron Brooks, Zebre Sanders and Tank Carder

2011: D’Norris Searcy, Chris Hariston and Johnny White

2010: Marcus Easley and Ed Wang

 

I don’t want to minimize the value of a 4th or 5th round pick but it is relatively rare you are going to miss out on a really good player in those rounds. More often than not you are talking about special teams players and solid depth rather than difference makers. So I think it is worth the risk for the shot at a difference maker (elite speed guy that would be a good fit with a qb that has a rocket arm). 

I don’t think going back 8 years is appropriate. Different people are selecting the players now, not Whaley, who was notorious for whiffing on draft picks. That’s why I only looked at the last 2 drafts. I’m not saying our 4th rounders from here out will be stars, but the last 2 drafts contain some very promising young players. Ross has already proven he hasn’t lived up to his potential. I wouldn’t give them anything higher than a 6th. 

[racketmaster]

2 minutes ago, Saint Doug said:

I don’t think going back 8 years is appropriate. Different people are selecting the players now, not Whaley, who was notorious for whiffing on draft picks. That’s why I only looked at the last 2 drafts. I’m not saying our 4th rounders from here out will be stars, but the last 2 drafts contain some very promising young players. Ross has already proven he hasn’t lived up to his potential. I wouldn’t give them anything higher than a 6th. 

We could have gone back further as 2 drafts is an extremely small sample size. In addition, it is so early that the careers of players like Taron Johnson could go in many directions. I only took the Bills drafts because they are players that we all recognize and can easily place values on as opposed to the other 31 teams. Expecting top talent in the 4th and 5th rounds is unreasonable and the odds will show that there are many more depth, special teams and players that barely make an impact than guys that become difference makers.

 

I'll put it this way: If we acquired Ross, I think the conservative odds of Ross putting up a 1000 yard season and 8-9 TDs would be at about 20%. He is a top tier talent and really just mostly needs to stay healthy and have a deep ball qb in order to be a productive player. If we drafted a wr in the 4th or 5th round this year, I'd say the chances or that pick putting up the 1000 yard 8-9 td season is less than 5%. I'm just playing the odds here and would prefer to take a shot at the players with the higher odds.

 

And you may counter with the draft pick might have the better odds of being a productive player in years 2, 3, 4 and 5 after being developed. That's possible, but I still think the odds of a 4th or 5th round wr having that type of season at anytime in their career is less than 20%.

 

[dpberr]

I wouldn't trade for him.  Taylor not finding a role for him on the team is a blinking red light to me.  

 

He is an oft-injured, undersized wide receiver with poor route running skills and documented issues beating man/man coverage because he's undersized.  

 

In such a quick precision passing league, your WRs need to do more than run really fast.  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by dpberr

[racketmaster]

12 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

Just some perspective.  Pats got Randy Moss from the Raiders for a 4th in 2007.  Granted he was 30 at the time but he was a multi time all pro

 

Bengals will likely get a 6th for Ross who has done nothing to date. 

 

The less of an asset we could use to acquire Ross the better. So if it were a 6th or 7th then it would be a steal in my mind for that type of pick which is likely to be a nothing player. But remember that Moss was 30 as you said and had flamed out in Oakland. He had been a distraction and was considered a malcontent and was no longer productive on the field. Plus his salary was higher so Moss had worn out his welcome and Oakland was just looking to get rid of him.

 

There is no reason to expect Moss like production from Ross but I have not seen anything to indicate he has been a malcontent or distraction with the Bengals. Had Moss not been a distraction in Oakland he could have probably garnered a 3rd or 4th. Ross is young and still has upside where as most thought Moss had very little left in the tank at 30.

[racketmaster]

10 minutes ago, dpberr said:

I wouldn't trade for him.  Taylor not finding a role for him on the team is a blinking red light to me.  

 

He is an oft-injured, undersized wide receiver with poor route running skills and documented issues beating man/man coverage because he's undersized.  

 

In such a quick precision passing league, your WRs need to do more than run really fast.  

 

 

 

 

I think it depends on your system and quarterback. First, the Bengals have had Green and Boyd emerged this past year. Second, Ross has been hampered by injuries which is a real concern and the reason he is even on the block.

 

But I completely disagree with the precision passing argument. Allen is the polar opposite of a Dalton type as he holds the ball longer than most quarterbacks. Allen not only has the ability to extend plays but he has a rocket arm. In this respect, Ross seems to be the perfect fit because it would allow him the time to get into his deeper routes. Even the threat of Ross getting over the top would allow more underneath routes to get open. So while Ross may not be a good fit for the Bengals he would be a good fit for teams like the Chiefs (they really don't need him because they have Hill), Steelers (they just drafted Washington), Panthers (they have DJ Moore), the Packers and the Bills to name a few. All have quarterbacks that can extend plays and get the ball deep. They are not precision passing, dink and dunk quarterbacks and could take better advantage of Ross' speed (if healthy).

Edited February 27, 2019 by racketmaster

[YoloinOhio]

Translation - it’s true but we are trying to make it look like we want to keep him/ haven’t gotten any decent offers. Bring them on. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[Bills of Boston]

Couldn’t agree more Yolo... yeah, journalists etc have nothing better to do than make up John Ross rumors.  I can picture them w their buddies..”I really turned the NFL upside down today w that john Ross fake rumor!!!”

 

?

[YoloinOhio]

10 minutes ago, Bills of Boston said:

Couldn’t agree more Yolo... yeah, journalists etc have nothing better to do than make up John Ross rumors.  I can picture them w their buddies..”I really turned the NFL upside down today w that john Ross fake rumor!!!”

 

?

Most of the stuff that gets reported at combine week is out there because there are so many agents in Indy who blab. 

[Matt_In_NH]

Corey Coleman 2.0?

[GG]

39 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Translation - it’s true but we are trying to make it look like we want to keep him/ haven’t gotten any decent offers. Bring them on. 

 

Sounds like Tobin went to the Hank Bullough School of Analogies.   I think he meant - Shoot, Ready, Aim.

[MAJBobby]

2 hours ago, Saint Doug said:

I think this trading away our 4th for basically a bust is a bad idea. A 4th is a very valuable asset. For example, we picked up Taron Johnson in the 4th and even Milano in the 5th (we had no 4th 2 years ago). Would you trade either of them (or even a player as promising as them) for a player who has never played up to his potential? I’ll roll my dice in the draft. 

 

Why to cherry pick a couple names.  Shall I list all the other 4ths that the Bills have had?  to show it is just as much of a dice roll in the 4th as it is with a Former 1st with massive speed?

[RyanC883]

I'd do a 6th for him.   Not much higher.  We have gotten great picks/useful picks in rounds 5 and up in the past few drafts. 

[Putin]

3 hours ago, racketmaster said:

I believe Williams and Ross are top tier talents and Foster really showed flashes of being a number 1 or 2 wr last year. So do I believe the Bills would be done making moves at the wr position beyond next year, heck no. But you would be adding Williams and Ross into the mix plus you may still use a later draft pick or veteran free agent that comes at a reasonable price. Bills could again attack the wr position in 2020 if needed. 

 

In the meantime, we could focus our assets ($ and picks) on the line and tight end spot. A legit tight end like Hockenson could be huge and just as much of an impact as a wr. We have a lot of holes and still need help on defense and we only have so much $ and picks. And let's not forget that the RB position needs a major upgrade in talent and that can be a tremendous help to a young quarterback. Plus, rookie RBs are more likely to become impact players as opposed to wrs, especially if we werr to use a mid round pick.

 

Put another way, if Bills used a 4th or 5th on a wr would anybody be thinking that we just upgraded that spot? I think getting Ross instead has a better chance of helping us improve the wr spot next year. Its a risk but I think it is still worth taking. 

 

Again !!! 

Ross has not shown ANYTHING since day one that he’s even worth a roaster spot , 

I know we have many holes to fill , and even defense needs to be addressed  , last year we had a top 5 / playoff caliber defense ,  there were few games where they gave up couple of big late drives that cost us the game , but overall our D was pretty darn good , 

About the running game I still believe that Shady got some fuel in the tank left and ( IMO ) Using a 5th round pick on a running back is not what going to help running game going , putting a solid OL and couple of weapons on offense is what will , I don’t care who you got running the ball if you get hit before the line of scrimmage , 

We have the money we have the picks we all know what needs to be addressed first 

 

[Saint Doug]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Why to cherry pick a couple names.  Shall I list all the other 4ths that the Bills have had?  to show it is just as much of a dice roll in the 4th as it is with a Former 1st with massive speed?

As I discussed above, I didn’t cherry pick. I selected the last 2 4th/5ths selected by the current regime. The Bills did not have a 4th in 2017, so I picked the 5th rounder. While the same size is very small, why should I list draft picks that weren’t selected by the current Bills FO?

[MAJBobby]

4 minutes ago, Saint Doug said:

As I discussed above, I didn’t cherry pick. I selected the last 2 4th/5ths selected by the current regime. The Bills did not have a 4th in 2017, so I picked the 5th rounder. While the same size is very small, why should I list draft picks that weren’t selected by the current Bills FO?

 

Well here are the historical numbers:

 

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

 

So looking at it, yeah signing a 24 year old with speed and had 7 TDs last season vs at best a 37% hit rate well yep rolling the dice either way.  I will take the speed and 7 TDs over a 12% chance at getting a starting WR

[Doc]

33 minutes ago, Putin said:

Again !!! 

Ross has not shown ANYTHING since day one that he’s even worth a roaster spot , 

I know we have many holes to fill , and even defense needs to be addressed  , last year we had a top 5 / playoff caliber defense ,  there were few games where they gave up couple of big late drives that cost us the game , but overall our D was pretty darn good , 

About the running game I still believe that Shady got some fuel in the tank left and ( IMO ) Using a 5th round pick on a running back is not what going to help running game going , putting a solid OL and couple of weapons on offense is what will , I don’t care who you got running the ball if you get hit before the line of scrimmage , 

We have the money we have the picks we all know what needs to be addressed first 

 

 

How about 7 TDs?

[racketmaster]

3 hours ago, Putin said:

Again !!! 

Ross has not shown ANYTHING since day one that he’s even worth a roaster spot , 

I know we have many holes to fill , and even defense needs to be addressed  , last year we had a top 5 / playoff caliber defense ,  there were few games where they gave up couple of big late drives that cost us the game , but overall our D was pretty darn good , 

About the running game I still believe that Shady got some fuel in the tank left and ( IMO ) Using a 5th round pick on a running back is not what going to help running game going , putting a solid OL and couple of weapons on offense is what will , I don’t care who you got running the ball if you get hit before the line of scrimmage , 

We have the money we have the picks we all know what needs to be addressed first 

 

I understand that Ross has yet to make a big impact but he did score 7 tds last year. His talent is really not the issue, it has much more to do with his injury history. I realize trading for Ross does not guarantee much of anything but feel it is a good match and worth the risk. 

 

I think we disagree on how much of our assets we should dedicate to the wr position. I think the combination of Foster, Williams (another talented player), Ross, McKenzie, Jones and maybe a value free agent wr can get the job done. There is potential there in the group but I realize it is just potential at this point. If it does not pan out then you make it more of a priority the following season. 

 

In in the meantime, you are bolstering your offensive line and tight end position. Both should help Allen every bit as much as an overpaid free agent wr or top draft pick would. Plus we disagree on Shady as I think he is just about done. We need serious help at RB and a mid round pick could help because they do help other teams year after year. 

 

With this plan, the Bills would theoretically improve their offensive line, tight end and rb positions. They would take a few gambles on the wr spot with Ross and Williams hoping one of them steps up as well as count on Foster continuing to be the number 1 threat. Wr may not be the strength but other positions would be much improved. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by racketmaster

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Well here are the historical numbers:

 

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

 

So looking at it, yeah signing a 24 year old with speed and had 7 TDs last season vs at best a 37% hit rate well yep rolling the dice either way.  I will take the speed and 7 TDs over a 12% chance at getting a starting WR

Agreed

And we need a veteran in the locker room to go with the youth we are probably going to take earlier in the draft.

 

Foster and this kid on the outsides getting behind defenses

 

Get a quality TE to work the middle of the field

[C.Biscuit97]

20 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The Bengals lost Marvin Jones and Mohammed Sanu in the same free agent class, and their offense suffered for it. 

 

It was a definite need for them.

They still had Boyd and Eifert.  Using a top 10 pick on an non #1 receiver seems like a bad invest for a team that was a playoff contender.

 

and people are right about not bidding too high of a pick.  Maybe a player (hi Cincy, Ducasse is a great player and an even better guy)?  But I don’t know why you get rid of Ross for a low round pick unless he is super dumb or had major injury concerns.

[Saint Doug]

5 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Well here are the historical numbers:

 

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

 

So looking at it, yeah signing a 24 year old with speed and had 7 TDs last season vs at best a 37% hit rate well yep rolling the dice either way.  I will take the speed and 7 TDs over a 12% chance at getting a starting WR

Historical numbers for who? Beane?

[MAJBobby]

On 2/27/2019 at 6:41 PM, Saint Doug said:

Historical numbers for who? Beane?

 

The League. So yeah I take them

over a SUPER SMALL sample size 

[YoloinOhio]

No offers, eh?