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Oh Star, Where Art Thou

Thriftygamer83

By Thriftygamer83
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mjt328 Veteran

mjt328

Posted
Posted

How many people are going to respond without actually clicking on the link...

 

It's always important to consider how players/positions are supposed to be used in a defensive scheme.

In Sean McDermott's system, it's vitally important to have playmaking linebackers who can read plays quickly and get to the right gap.  Star is basically a space-eater, who commands double-teams and allows those linebackers room to make plays.

 

Matt Milano is already becoming a star in this scheme.  His loss (along with Tremaine Edmunds having his rookie struggles) was the main reason for our run defense falling apart on Sunday.

 

 

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TroutDog Veteran

TroutDog

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Posted
Just now, mjt328 said:

How many people are going to respond without actually clicking on the link...

 

It's always important to consider how players/positions are supposed to be used in a defensive scheme.

In Sean McDermott's system, it's vitally important to have playmaking linebackers who can read plays quickly and get to the right gap.  Star is basically a space-eater, who commands double-teams and allows those linebackers room to make plays.

 

Matt Milano is already becoming a star in this scheme.  His loss (along with Tremaine Edmunds having his rookie struggles) was the main reason for our run defense falling apart on Sunday.

 

 

Yup. Along with poor positioning by a number of people which lost end containment. 

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LABILLBACKER Hall of Famer

LABILLBACKER

Posted
Posted

Twinkle Twinkle little Star

How we've paid you way too far

 

Listen what's the point of having a big NT who gets doubled all the time if we never stack the box. We should've had the same game plan as Beli. 11 in the box and force Old man Brady to throw it deep. No Gordon, no healthy Gronk. Just stupid.

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formerlyofCtown Veteran

formerlyofCtown

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31 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Twinkle Twinkle little Star

How we've paid you way too far

 

Listen what's the point of having a big NT who gets doubled all the time if we never stack the box. We should've had the same game plan as Beli. 11 in the box and force Old man Brady to throw it deep. No Gordon, no healthy Gronk. Just stupid.

No hes paid about right.  All-Pro DTs like you would like him to be get 20+ these days.

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Aussie Joe All Pro

Aussie Joe

Posted
Posted (edited)

The article quoted by the OP is interesting if people have the time to go through it..

 

 I would suggest Star is average not poor...but no doubt overpaid a couple of mil per year on his Bills contract ..apparently though that’s what you have to do to acquire free agents and I think we will see a bit more of that in March...

 

Looking at his contract, he is here to stay another 2 years at least so I suggest we get used to him running out there in the red white and blue through end of 2020

Edited by Aussie Joe
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Bing Bong Veteran

Bing Bong

Posted
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Step 1 to building a team. Get the guys that were pretty good on your old team in 2013 because nothing ever changes and your brilliant SCHEME is so inflexible it literally needs the exact same players.. Only 5 years older.

 

Heck why stop there let's sign the 85 bears they had a good scheme.

 

I'm warming up to them but the 2 most annoying things about McBeane is the ignoring the entire offensive unit and the love affair with old Panthers.. to which we defend with REBUILD and SCHEME. I see mistakes (everybody makes them) and laziness (extremely annoying)

 

We have to wait until the 2013 Panthers die and Beane stops signing his 40 year old golden goose Kuechly out of retirement for 5M 100 years of contract. 3 times we've over paid, overplayed, or gave up too much for a 2013 Panther. If your scheme needs literally the same players you're not thinking to critically about building a team

Edited by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P
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The Now Moment Veteran

The Now Moment

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Posted

This isn't the NFL of 10 or even 5 years ago.  With the cap space of all teams continuing to rise, players will ask for more money. It's not surprising.  Baseball and basketball players get paid a lot more.  Football is a much more physical sport and a bigger business, players should get more.  Every position will be paid more money.  I don't think we overpaid at all, especially considering the best at the position gets paid 135 million over 6 years with 87 million guaranteed.  Star is getting paid less than half of that.  He's a space eater, nothing more. Hard to be a player that's job doesn't show up in the stats column in the biggest statistical era ever.  

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LSHMEAB Veteran

LSHMEAB

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It seems like every week during the games, it's obvious Star is not contributing much and not really even some incredible space eater. As the week progresses, we revert back to the false narrative that he's doing a solid job because it means one less thing we need to address in the offseason. It was not a great contract or signing, but it is what it is. Hopefully we find a gem at DT in the draft because we're gonna need one.

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Bing Bong Veteran

Bing Bong

Posted
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, MJS said:

Yeah yeah. We know. Every player sucks and McDermott sucks and Beane sucks and the Bills suck and we should fire and cut everyone.

 

The end.

Whoa! Too much bud. I just don't love getting all the 2013 Panthers we get. As for Star I have a hard time telling if a space heater is doing work. I'm fine with overpaying free agents but totally not fine on paying the Panthers premium on dudes.. which we have done before. Hated the WR draft pick carousel we went on for losing picks and signing KB and Matthews to cut shortly after.

 

I'll let the better football minds discuss Star's impact.. I don't see anything good or bad.. nothing at all really which I think is a little cause for concern. But primarily.. as with Kelvin, we took a Panthers guy at a premium that the Panthers themselves weren't exactly in love with. All I know is Star was becoming increasingly marginal in his role with the Panthers and rotated in for 40% of snaps before we snatched him.

 

I'll always defer to teams that have seen the best of a player and phase them out for an obvious reason, as had happened with KB, Matthews, and Star. Not that they could be wrong but we certainly knew much more about Dareus' shortcomings than other NFL teams (although they clearly saw regression as well) and lo and behold a former Dareus coach goes out and signs a useless player. We laugh at teams that think Chandler and Hogan are more Gronks and Edelman's.. and I'm sure the Panthers don't think much of what they're missing either.

 

Guys like Woods and Gilmore are different stories as we clearly valued them at a certain price.. and played them in plenty of snaps as they were a huge part of  our team playing their best football before they hit FA. The guys that have performed very well with a team a few years ago and find themselves being less involved are the ones that make me apprehensive to sign.

Edited by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P
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LSHMEAB Veteran

LSHMEAB

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Whoa! Too much bud. I just don't love getting all the 2013 Panthers we get. As for Star I have a hard time telling if a space heater is doing work. I'm fine with overpaying free agents but totally not fine on paying the Panthers premium on dudes.. which we have done before. Hated the WR draft pick carousel we went on for losing picks and signing KB and Matthews to cut shortly after.

 

I'll let the better football minds discuss Star's impact.. I don't see anything good or bad.. nothing at all really which I think is a little cause for concern. But primarily.. as with Kelvin, we took a Panthers guy at a premium that the Panthers themselves weren't exactly in love with. All I know is Star was becoming increasingly marginal in his role with the Panthers and rotated in for 40% of snaps before we snatched him.

 

I'll always defer to teams that have seen the best of a player and phase them out for an obvious reason, as had happened with KB, Matthews, and Star. Not that they could be wrong but we certainly knew much more about Dareus' shortcomings than other NFL teams (although they clearly saw regression as well) and lo and behold a former Dareus coach goes out and signs a useless player. We laugh at teams that think Chandler and Hogan are more Gronks and Edelman's.. and I'm sure the Panthers don't think much of what they're missing either.

I'm sure Panthers boards are lighting up with Star threads. "You know what caused this team to go into a tailspin? The loss of Star Lotuleilei, that's what!"

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Bing Bong Veteran

Bing Bong

Posted
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

It seems like every week during the games, it's obvious Star is not contributing much and not really even some incredible space eater. As the week progresses, we revert back to the false narrative that he's doing a solid job because it means one less thing we need to address in the offseason. It was not a great contract or signing, but it is what it is. Hopefully we find a gem at DT in the draft because we're gonna need one.

Yeah I don't think Star is playing the kind of position (like corner) where if you never hear his name called out he's doing a bangup job. But it feels like a convenient excuse to point he's doing an excellent job because he's "taking on 2-3 players a true space eater". Where I really can't see the impact. I see Phillip's fat *** penetrate run players and otherwise look like a hog out there.. not so much Star. He's gotta be good for other things to play DL it shouldn't be hard to say one game any casual observer might be able to appreciate Star's performance. Literally never see it. 

 

Phillips.. much more so.

11 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm sure Panthers boards are lighting up with Star threads. "You know what caused this team to go into a tailspin? The loss of Star Lotuleilei, that's what!"

My go to sports nerd Panthers fan was like "idk if he's a good signing for you guys but he wasn't our best DL rotation. I don't remember him playing much last season"

 

... And I asked him if he knew how much we were paying him :(

 

he was surprised. Like if I would be if someone gave Dareus that kind of money I'd imagine.

Edited by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P
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LSHMEAB Veteran

LSHMEAB

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Yeah I don't think Star is playing the kind of position (like corner) where if you never hear his name called out he's doing a bangup job. But it feels like a convenient excuse to point he's doing an excellent job because he's "taking on 2-3 players a true space eater". Where I really can't see the impact. I see Phillip's fat *** penetrate run players and otherwise look like a hog out there.. not so much Star. He's gotta be good for other things to play DL it shouldn't be hard to say one game any casual observer might be able to appreciate Star's performance. Literally never see it. 

 

Phillips.. much more so.

I watch some of the Cover 1 film and he's very rarely taking up 2 blockers. He's pretty much always locked in a Tecmo style stalemate with one guy. He doesn't get pushed back but also rarely pushes the pocket towards the offense. I'm just not a fan. Ted Washington was a "space eater" occupying two blockers, yet he also racked up tackles, TFL'S, and sacks. It just seems like some don't want to criticize anything Beane does. IMO, he whiffed on this particular signing. Not the end of the world.

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Bing Bong Veteran

Bing Bong

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2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I watch some of the Cover 1 film and he's very rarely taking up 2 blockers. He's pretty much always locked in a Tecmo style stalemate with one guy. He doesn't get pushed back but also rarely pushes the pocket towards the offense. I'm just not a fan. Ted Washington was a "space eater" occupying two blockers, yet he also racked up tackles, TFL'S, and sacks. It just seems like some don't want to criticize anything Beane does. IMO, he whiffed on this particular signing. Not the end of the world.

You clearly must not understand scheme. Star fits it because he fit it perfectly for McD in 2013. He is literally the only space eater that works in the scheme.

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Green Lightning Veteran

Green Lightning

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33 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I watch some of the Cover 1 film and he's very rarely taking up 2 blockers. He's pretty much always locked in a Tecmo style stalemate with one guy. He doesn't get pushed back but also rarely pushes the pocket towards the offense. I'm just not a fan. Ted Washington was a "space eater" occupying two blockers, yet he also racked up tackles, TFL'S, and sacks. It just seems like some don't want to criticize anything Beane does. IMO, he whiffed on this particular signing. Not the end of the world.

I too am underwhelmed. From what I see he generally  occupies one blocker, not two. He doesn't suck but I don't think he's worth the contract. That said I wouldn't blame the run game against the Patriots on him. The linebackers were just dreadful.

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LSHMEAB Veteran

LSHMEAB

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

I too am underwhelmed. From what I see he generally  occupies one blocker, not two. He doesn't suck but I don't think he's worth the contract. That said I wouldn't blame the run game against the Patriots on him. The linebackers were just dreadful.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. If Tre White is our best defensive player, Matt Milano is number 2. I would argue he's number 1, but I'll leave that alone.

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Bing Bong Veteran

Bing Bong

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

It’s  going to be exciting to see what the guys who signed Star and Murphy do with even more money!

Same guys who traded for KB, Matthews lest ye forget. Lemme guess here..

Ah that's easy. I think overpaying for all the new Panthers OL up for contract should do some damage! 

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billspro Veteran

billspro

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Misterbluesky said:

Every player makes plays...but when the poor plays outweigh the positive ones,that's a issue.Enjoy this Sunday's game..it will be his last.

 

Didn’t he have 15 tackles playing out of position? That’s pretty good the coaching staff put him in a tough spot and he held his own.

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Thurman#1 Hall of Famer

Thurman#1

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/platform/amp/2018/12/27/18155883/all-22-analysis-where-was-star-lotulelei-run-stuffing-defensive-tackle-vs-new-england-patriots

 

Non-exisistent defensive tackle whose also been a bust for the Panthers.  A guy whose been easily replaced in rotation.  

 

 

 

Dude, did you not notice that this writeup is extremely positive about how Lotulelei did against the Patriots?

 

Here's the summary of the article which you yourself linked to:

 

"Summary

"To be clear, the above isn’t presented to make the case that Star Lotulelei is playing at an All-Pro level. He is however, playing at a high enough level where the New England Patriots appear to have focused a great deal of attention in avoiding him and accounting for him when that wasn’t possible—and he still made some plays.

 

"The data in the table below comes courtesy of Pro Football Reference. There’s a lot to unpack, but the main point for Star is the last row (light blue). The middle section of the field is the area that he would be the main force in locking down. The Patriots were far less successful running up the middle, and Star Lotulelei is a big reason why."

 

Folks, if you're going to comment, read the article.

 

This whole thread has been a massive proof of confirmation bias, starting from the original poster. The OP doesn't like Lotulelei, so he assumes the article must be negative, perceives it as negative and then goes out to tell everybody about the negative article he found. Then a bunch of people who don't like Lotulelei jump on board, most probably not reading the article because after all they know it will just confirm their biases, and post as if the article supports their stances.

 

The only problem is that the article is very positive about Lotulelei's play.

 

3 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

I watch some of the Cover 1 film and he's very rarely taking up 2 blockers. He's pretty much always locked in a Tecmo style stalemate with one guy. He doesn't get pushed back but also rarely pushes the pocket towards the offense. I'm just not a fan. Ted Washington was a "space eater" occupying two blockers, yet he also racked up tackles, TFL'S, and sacks. It just seems like some don't want to criticize anything Beane does. IMO, he whiffed on this particular signing. Not the end of the world.

 

 

You don't need to watch the Cover 1 film. Just watch the breakdowns from the link in this thread. He's double teamed virtually every time and they were running away from him most of the time anyway.

 

He's doing his job very well.

Edited by Thurman#1
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Spiderweb Veteran

Spiderweb

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Posted
14 hours ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

You clearly must not understand scheme. Star fits it because he fit it perfectly for McD in 2013. He is literally the only space eater that works in the scheme.

Star is no Ted Washington who was one of the best nose tackles to play the game. Yet, he was still a player who did his job against the Pats and it was the remaining DLine and LBs who played horribly. He's not the type to make splash plays but he has been effective even if this board fails to see it.

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dave mcbride Hall of Famer

dave mcbride

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Dude, did you not notice that this writeup is extremely positive about how Lotulelei did against the Patriots?

 

Here's the summary of the article which you yourself linked to:

 

"Summary

"To be clear, the above isn’t presented to make the case that Star Lotulelei is playing at an All-Pro level. He is however, playing at a high enough level where the New England Patriots appear to have focused a great deal of attention in avoiding him and accounting for him when that wasn’t possible—and he still made some plays.

 

"The data in the table below comes courtesy of Pro Football Reference. There’s a lot to unpack, but the main point for Star is the last row (light blue). The middle section of the field is the area that he would be the main force in locking down. The Patriots were far less successful running up the middle, and Star Lotulelei is a big reason why."

 

Folks, if you're going to comment, read the article.

 

This whole thread has been a massive proof of confirmation bias, starting from the original poster. The OP doesn't like Lotulelei, so he assumes the article must be negative, perceives it as negative and then goes out to tell everybody about the negative article he found. Then a bunch of people who don't like Lotulelei jump on board, most probably not reading the article because after all they know it will just confirm their biases, and post as if the article supports their stances.

 

The only problem is that the article is very positive about Lotulelei's play.

 

 

 

You don't need to watch the Cover 1 film. Just watch the breakdowns from the link in this thread. He's double teamed virtually every time and they were running away from him most of the time anyway.

 

He's doing his job very well.

Yes, the article is actually quite positive! I have no idea what the OP's point is.

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WideNine Veteran

WideNine

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Posted
13 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. If Tre White is our best defensive player, Matt Milano is number 2. I would argue he's number 1, but I'll leave that alone.

 

As much as I really like Milano's play, he was not tearing it up as a run stopper either. The Bills have been suspect all year - just look at our red zone stops when teams just run it down our throats. Milano is a guy who can play all over the field and who has great ball instincts, but if a blocker gets hands on him it is over. NE just decided to run the ball period - not just in the red zone.

 

We need another space eater and that isn't Phillips - seems more in the penetrating mold like Kyle, but his feet need to grow a heck of a lot more before he fills those shoes. After that, they need to move Edmunds (who seemed to skip the basic classes of reading his triangle keys) outside and get a linebacker through FA or draft that can play the middle and has a nose for the ball. Do those two things and grandpa noodle-arm in NE wont be able to rely on running the ball at will like they did to us on Sunday.

 

I like our pass defense, and for the most part it is the reason our defense is rated so highly. That being said, I saw a lot of whiffs by our safeties and corners on the edges where they should have had contain on NE's RB. Those secondary starters (a lot of them did not start the year as starters) need some coaching up on taking good angles, forcing a runner to change direction, and gang tacking.

 

Get the right personnel and go back to the basics of reading, reacting, and execution.

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