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This entire, miserable season revolves around 1 player

PUNT750

By PUNT750
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JoshAllenHasBigHands Veteran

JoshAllenHasBigHands

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Posted
9 hours ago, PUNT750 said:

AJ McCarron.

 

Remember him?  Everyone was so happy when he signed with the Bills.  AJ would start with Josh and Nate as back-ups.  Plus, his wife was a well known model. Cool?

 

I was as naive as the Bills coaching staff.  He started 3 games in his 4 year career with the Bengals.  I assumed he was a quality QB backing up Andy Dalton.  Why wouldn't he be?

 

He flopped all through training camp.  He showed nothing in pre-season games.  The Bills Management plan for our QB's died right there.

 

Sad that an NFL franchise has to crumble for one bad choice in the off-season.  Very Sad!

 

The Bills didn't want to pay more than $5 million per year for their bridge QB.  It was universally applauded, because did not break the magic rule of not over paying.  Then the predictable happened-he played like a $5 million QB.  

 

What made the whole thing such a mess was Peterman won the job in preseason.  And he did it convincingly.  Then it just went completely down hill. 

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boater Veteran

boater

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9 hours ago, PUNT750 said:

Sad that an NFL franchise has to crumble for one bad choice in the off-season.  Very Sad!

There weren't allot of options at the time. The word 'choice' misrepresents what happened.

 

There was a crush of QB signings over a few days league wide---overpaid signings at that---AJ was the last semi-competent QB available.

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White Linen All Pro

White Linen

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7 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Is it concerning at all that Allen has looked worse than Anderson, who you say McCarron would be an upgrade from? 

 

The hurdle and yelling at the defense was cool... but eh... I haven't seen more than that, and that ***** ain't winning superbowls. 

 

Yikes.  

Watching Anderson just confirms how incredibly hard it is to play QB and that Allen can handle the job.  

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YoloinOhio Hall of Famer

YoloinOhio

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

So it’s all AJ’s fault?

 

ummm ok. 

I still can’t believe we swapped him for what will end up being the 1st pick in the 5th rd. That’s some sorcery. Or Gruden stupidity. Or both. 

Edited by YoloinOhio
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Thurman#1 Hall of Famer

Thurman#1

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25 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

I know, doesn't matter who said it, matters who buys it.. If JA ever busting is based on nothing but the 2018 offense then you're giving Beane a pass should he just suck.

 

I know anybody could get injured on any play. I just defended Rosen's injury prone narrative as a case of reporting a statistic most QB's don't when a concussion is patently obvious (I know JA certainly has had his bell rung at least twice, and I'd be all for him going out given the real damage comes from repeated head injuries in a short time span.)

 

I get quarterbacks go back to bad habits.. that's a bad intangible (if the habit is ineffective). They need to be able to get back to their job of putting blinders on and focusing on improving. David Carr's just the classic example because there's not many of them! Most acknowledge the QB is bad to begin with.. who's defending Brandon Wheeden for starting out in a poor situation? And I don't even recall if David Carr EVER had a good team in his starting seasons with the Texans. He may never have been "broken" so much as never given the weapons and protection. In that case, sure.. go back to your bad habits if you're trying to win a ball game and the ole pro I-form 7 step drop, stand tall and sling every blitz ain't working, do your thing! Some would say Russell Wilson's penchant for running out of the pocket and creating a broken play in a horrible offense is his "bad habits" coming on, but he's an elite quarterback who's habits in college made him a good pro player. I'm hard pressed to find quarterbacks dramatically change their mechanics out of college on good rosters.. Tim Tebow didn't get anything fixed, nor did Vince Young's throwing style that looked like he was flinging turds out of his hand. it's simply a bad habit from college..

 

or a good one perceived as bad: Aaron rodgers never fixed his side arm released, I'm convinced quarterback academies should be teaching how to generate throwing power with a side armed sling shot wrist mechanic. Again, Russ Wilson. Phillip Rivers has a side armed release, Brett Favre did, a lot of great quarterbacks are using what worked in college rather than trying to be EJ Manual's impression of Mr. Fundemental.

 

RE David Carr: I said in the same post you replied to that I understand we're not seeing the best of JA, by our own device. And if we don't fix that to properly evaluate him, there's a possible Carr situation where he never started with a good team to begin with (again, if I'm recalling Carr's career correctly). But JA's not shook, he won't be, he has a great intangible for that very reason, and his career shouldn't be about his 2018 season, just what he does when he's given a supporting cast. Steve Young's career wasn't broken for playing for the Bucs, again I used Carr just because he's the poster child for this theory. Name me guys that would have really crushed it if they hadn't had 1 traumatic rookie year because of everyone one else on offense other than them.

 

 

I don't know or much care about any Rosen narrative. Two concussions and a shoulder in college. Once concussion doesn't necessarily mean much. Two in one year, that's a worry. That's about the extent of my interest.

 

And yeah, QBs need to ignore the bad habit and put blinders on. And abused wives and vets with PTSD need to do the same thing, tough it out, show some guts ... you get I'm being sarcastic here, right? The human brain doesn't work that way. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't. There's a ton of stuff that goes on well below consciousness. And trauma has an effect, an effect that can't always be controlled.

 

Carr is the classic example not because there are few of them but because he's by far the most obvious example. Carr has two of NFL history's biggest season sack totals. 76 in 2002 and 68 in 2005. Second most-sacked QB in NFL history in terms of sacks/attempt. 10.54%. That's insane, and most of it was on the GM for never really putting an OL in front of the guy.

 

You're wrong about Aaron Rodgers, completely. He started with a very high release point, which is what his college coach, Tedford teaches. It was seen as a major drawback and considered a major reason he fell in the draft. Mike McCarthy, in the QB camps he put Rodgers through starting during the years he didn't start, totally changed his motion to a much more classic one. Rodgers practices and is good at off-platform throws but his motion was greatly improved in his seasons on the bench and it was very likely that it was exactly the fact that he sat on the bench that allowed him to groove that new motion rather than go back to his old one when the rush came if he'd played early. He was much worse in camp his first three years or so.

 

And by the way, your first of several straw men here is the assumption that "broken" implies the problem is always physical beating. It's not. Guys never reaching their potential can happen in a ton of different ways that have nothing to do with physical pain. There are many ways to prevent a guy from reaching his potential. Putting him in the wrong system. Putting him out there to do badly before he understands what's going on around him and thereby putting him in position to fail. And the more developmental a guy is, the easier ruining him can be. Developmental guys need to be developed. Correctly. That's where the word comes from. It's why some guys are called NFL-ready and others are very much not called that.

 

"JA's not shook he won't be," you say. I don't quite know what to say to that, as it's pure wishful thinking!  I mean, I hope so too, but while we know he's a tough kid, plenty of tough kids are affected by consistent horrible experiences.

 

You're flinging straw men all around here. What does Vince Young have to do with this argument, unless you think he was ruined. I don't know either way but I think he just wasn't good enough and that he had some mental issues. Tebow doesn't belong in this discussion. Does anyone say he was ruined? Puh-leeze. You argue that "some would say" Russell Wilson has a bad habit in running out of the pocket? Good lord, dude, how desperate are you? Who would say that? Wilson's very good from the pocket. And he can also leave it when the time is right. Nothing wrong with that. And yeah, I said people will be saying that first year ruined him. I perhaps phrased that badly. People will say it, but no, not all the damage to guys who get ruined will happen in the first year. But guys whose first year didn't allow them to set a good foundation for success? Guys greatly hurt by that? Particularly guys identified as developmental who were pushed in early? Yeah, there's a good case to be made for a number of cases like that.

 

And probably many of them involve guys taught early on in their career things like, as you say above ... "sure.. go back to your bad habits if you're trying to win a ball game and the ole pro I-form 7 step drop, stand tall and sling every blitz ain't working, do your thing!" Stupid on every level to say that to a QB. Things will tend not to work for young QBs, based on not understanding the pro game. Telling them to go back to the delivery flaws - such as Allen's bad footwork they're trying to fix to improve his accuracy - that reduce accuracy or the tendency to leave the pocket before you need to and cut down your visibility and run away from and make it impossible to hit many of your receivers on the play, or to run backwards rather than step up in the pocket when it's available, all flaws Allen needs to work on, can eliminate improvement in a crucial area of a young QB's game.

 

The reason bad habits are called "bad habits" is because ... wait for it ... they're bad. Guys going back to old bad habit stymies development and makes the player worse.

 

Sure, I can name some guys who may have been badly affected by poor handling. There can be no proof of this of course, but there can also be no proof it's not true. The NFL believes that it happens. Including Josh Allen by the way, to repeat myself. As for guys who were possibly ruined ... Just off the top of my head, Joey Harrington. Tim Couch for, gulp, Cleveland, and being pummeled consistently and just handled poorly. Plummer was treated badly enough early in his career he finally just junked it all. Jason Campbell was in a horrible situation. Byron Leftwich seemed like he was becoming a pretty good QB but didn't get much in the way of an OL or recievers and they lost faith in him quickly. Really smart guy, Leftwich and tough too, played on a broken leg in college. RGIII, maybe. His athletic ability had them put him out there before he was maybe ready and then he had coach controversies and was maybe protected by his owner from the coaching Shanahan wanted to give him. He's apparently a good guy, but nothing now. There was a time when he looked terrific. Rick Mirer was handled badly, though he was an arrogant and maybe troubled guy. Gannon has said that he wonders what he could have become if he'd had McCarthy as a coach earlier in his career. McCarthy turned him around. It'd be fair to question him but he is a very sensible guy these days and he has some ideas about how he should have been handled. I'm not going deeper. And I don't say there's proof ... either way. How could there be? But are some of these guys likely bad case studies on how to ruin a QB? Yeah.

 

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BmarvB Veteran

BmarvB

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

Watched AJ a bit last night with raiders and he looked like he did with the bills held the ball too long and took sacks

He's fitting right it with the Raiders plan to secure the #1 pick. Bench Carr and make McCarron the starter for the rest of the season. If you're gonna tank, go all the way with it!!!

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Bing Bong Veteran

Bing Bong

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1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

But are some of these guys likely bad case studies on how to ruin a QB? Yeah.

I don't want to throw a wall of text in my quote reply, but I'll try to respond to all your points. But to your quote above, I appreciate you throwing some names back at me. We're sparring, not arguing. You're obviously smart, have a different view point and sparring like that is my favorite thing to do in this forum. We learn some, we change opinion, and agree to disagree on any given point. But anyways a straw man argument is my refuting a point you didn't make. You threw it around quite liberally and maybe I did stray away but I tried to stay on the topic of if quarterbacks could be broken.

 

And dude.. of course I know we're not using "broken" literally, we're both talking metaphorically about if it's possible to ruin a quarterback through early NFL game experience; if that changes their inherent ability to be a good quarterback if transplanted to a suitable team after being in a disaster. I'll concede to a degree yes, but I think the difference is pretty marginal if they began in a suitable situation.. and to not be dismissed as straw man I am assuming your argument is that a disastrous professional start, due to teammates and not the developing quarterback's ability, can dramatically change his ability say 8 years later if placed on a suitable team as opposed to starting on a capable offense, then moving to said team.

 

I wrote my post like a mathematical proof (I'm a math dude). The players I mentioned were my way of providing examples of my point by "proof" (proof as in my case about breaking a quarterback), and throwing at you players that made my case by either direct reasoning, contrapositive, and contradiction to see which one would stick best with you. That said, sure.. I don't know the book on Aaron Rodgers' habits, it was what I was told by a Packers fan so I'll drop him. 

 

So let's start with quarterbacks reverting to college habits when they are in a bad situation. Total straw man argument to say that pro scouts perception of bad habits coming out of college mean they are ACTUALLY bad.. just kidding that's not a straw man argument if you just didn't understand my point (see it's annoying to throw straw man everywhere). Don't really have an example of a bad situation, but Phillip Rivers: knocked for weak arm strength and poor throwing mechanics that needed to get fixed and never did. = bad habits from scouts, successful career in the NFL. Rivers was inherently good and reverting to whatever were pegged as bad habits in college wouldn't have worked. Direct argument.

 

First round quarterbacks drafted to a good team: Tim Tebow and Vince Young. No this is not a straw man argument. My point is high picks drafted to good teams that still had bad habits. Contrapositive, if an inherently bad quarterback is in a good situation he's not going to necessarily improve. If an inherently good quarterback is in a bad situation: Steve Young, he's going to stay inherently good. I see no correlation to a quarterback reverting to their college habits (good or bad) regardless of where they go. If they're reverting to bad college habits they weren't good. And if the wrong perception of "bad habit" in Phillip Rivers case isn't indicative of his pro talent, then I find your point about reverting to simply not matter. The players aren't even reverting, they are just playing to their inherent skill set. Vince Young and Phillip Rivers were "developmental q

 

My point is JA's developing sure, but he is what he is. He's not doing anything wrong, he's compensating for a bad team and forced to play unconventionally.. like Steve Young early, or early Eli Manning (and late Eli Manning). Manning never changed, he was on a bad team, good, then bad, and was a decent QB the whole time, with his strengths and flaws, and on the good teams he had some very good years. He wasn't traumatized by sucking as much as he did early in his career. Dude, nobody's traumatized.. this isn't PTSD, and these aren't guys going to war. They're not having flashbacks of interceptions. That's trivializing serious problems man.

 

I'm running out of steam so I'll just say as far as your guys, agree to disagree: I think Tim Couch and Joey Harrington sucked. Inherently bad. I liked Byron Leftwich and he wasn't even a bust IMO, he played for a bad team, and had a good year and had a major flaw having the slowest release I've ever seen. 

 

Good athletes lose confidence but this is my entire point! Great athletes don't lose confidence, among other positive attributes. It ain't wishful thinking that JA doesn't get broken. It's wishful thinking that he's got the Eli Manning in him, that he's inherently a good quarterback and we drafted well.

 

All that said we have a cluster**** of an offense and I certainly pity rookies coming into here. I think a young Dan Marino would totally suck on this team, for the entire time he plays here until personnel gets better, if he were to get traded to the Broncos looking for their missing piece he'd kick ***.

Edited by PetermanThrew5Picks
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Ol Dirty B Veteran

Ol Dirty B

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2 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

Yikes.  

Watching Anderson just confirms how incredibly hard it is to play QB and that Allen can handle the job.  

 

We agree on it's hard to play QB. I don't agree that Allen has looked better, at all. Can someone please show me what I'm missing? The offense at least moves the ball with Anderson

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Patrick Duffy All Pro

Patrick Duffy

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

We agree on it's hard to play QB. I don't agree that Allen has looked better, at all. Can someone please show me what I'm missing? The offense at least moves the ball with Anderson

May move the ball, but what's the point if you still can't score points? To me that's what matters most. I guess that would make him look a little bit better, but bottom line is they can't score points so all of them suck right now (which I'm sure most agree).

 

I also agree that Allen has not looked better than Anderson, but however am willing to give him more time to see how it plays out. Would still rather watch Allen when he is healthy than Anderson or of course Petermen.

Edited by Patrick_Duffy
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Ol Dirty B Veteran

Ol Dirty B

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Just now, Patrick_Duffy said:

May move the ball, but what's the point if you still can't score points? To me that's what matters most. I guess that would make him look a little bit better, but bottom line is they can't score points so all of them suck right now (which I'm sure most agree).

 

I also agree that Allen has not looked better but however am willing to give him more time to see how it plays out. Would still rather watch Allen when he is healthy than Anderson or of course Petermen.

 

I definitely want to see Allen. I want to be wrong. I really can't disagree or say anything different with that post.

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Bing Bong Veteran

Bing Bong

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2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

I'm not going deeper. And I don't say there's proof ... either way. How could there be? But are some of these guys likely bad case studies on how to ruin a QB? Yeah.

christ I've wasted my entire morning on TBD. It's an honest to god addiction. I'm slammed with work and logging out.

 

There's no proof either way, we both raised our points and opinions, and I was just pointing out I was absolutely doing no straw man argument in a 30 minute long writeup. I'll just put it this way: we're looking for one of the top 10 guys in the world at their profession. Of COURSE it's wishful thinking Allen doesn't get ruined, as it is he becomes a great quarterback. Would you rather draft David Carr who is ruined after being sacked to oblivion in a terrible offense to the point of no return? Or draft a bizarro version of David Carr who is sacked to oblivion in a terrible offense and turns it around when the GM finally comes around, gives him help and has an MVP season. There are human beings capable of that, and when we draft JA to this dreadful offense, I want him to never be irredeemable and handle adversity. 

 

We're talking about the most difficult mental toughness required in all of professional sports.. we have to draft all the qualities that best equip a quarterback. Maybe Carr would have been amazing being drafted on the Cowboys, but he still lacks an intangible this team sort of needs given the situation Beane's got him in.

 

Tennis players have similar trajectories.. tough mental sport. Andre Agassi almost never lived up to his early career potential, began to get overshadowed by Pete Sampras, but persevered and made a legacy of himself even when his biggest obstacle was another American! at the exact same age! who was the best tennis player ever at that point in time! Agassi eventually could say he was better than Sampras for part of his career.

 

You mention Rich Gannon.. That's exactly who I want drafted. He got his MVP year when he got what he needed, maybe lost confidence at points in his career, but he didn't get ruined, he got squandered until he proved his worth when he was given the right pieces. I want JA to be a Rich Gannon MVP version by age 30 instead with a GM that's actively working to give him what Rich Gannon needed his entire career,

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LABILLBACKER Hall of Famer

LABILLBACKER

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13 hours ago, PUNT750 said:

AJ McCarron.

 

Remember him?  Everyone was so happy when he signed with the Bills.  AJ would start with Josh and Nate as back-ups.  Plus, his wife was a well known model. Cool?

 

I was as naive as the Bills coaching staff.  He started 3 games in his 4 year career with the Bengals.  I assumed he was a quality QB backing up Andy Dalton.  Why wouldn't he be?

 

He flopped all through training camp.  He showed nothing in pre-season games.  The Bills Management plan for our QB's died right there.

 

Sad that an NFL franchise has to crumble for one bad choice in the off-season.  Very Sad!

AJ McCarron was never a proven or experienced veteran. He was the wrong target. If your intention was to have Josh learn behind a decent backup you should've spent a little more draft capital on a Bridgewater,  Foles, McCown or even Fitz. This season's mentor program for Josh has been a cluster @#$%.....

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ctk232 RFA

ctk232

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12 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

I mean... wow so you're blaming McCarron for this season.

 

That is amazing. Part of this fanbase goes to amazing measures to give the people at fault a pass.

 

That's a new one, I'm going to start blaming players not on the Bills for the Bills problems.

 

Maybe Brown is more at fault than McCarron.

 

As tired as the point is, I think that would make a better point.

 

He's blaming a back up QB for playing like a back up QB when they signed him.

So the funny thing about that is our WR corps would be infinitely better off with him accepting that 3 yr deal. Not his fault, but he did have the choice - people can be angry with him for making the right choice.

 

Just hate that those stories then get published - not like we need the national media attention of how no one wants to play here and how we have to overpay every FA we bring in just to have positive net gains on player flow.

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BuffaLoko Rookie

BuffaLoko

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, BillsRdue said:

That's part of the blame, but there is so much more that AJ sucking.

Add:

Trying to screw over Richie and watching him fall off the cliff.

Woods neck - No one saw it coming. 

Keeping Peterman than starting him.

Not picking up any quality WR's. 

Hiring Daboll

Add it all up and we have a sh^t show.

BillsRdue, I am having a hard time trying to find just another single factor to add to your list!! good job!! seriously can I just copy paste it and share outside of here? thanks for your quality pst in a pood quality topic from OP....

Edited by BuffaLoko
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Fadingpain All Pro

Fadingpain

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16 hours ago, PUNT750 said:

AJ McCarron.

 

Remember him?  Everyone was so happy when he signed with the Bills.  AJ would start with Josh and Nate as back-ups.  Plus, his wife was a well known model. Cool?

 

I was as naive as the Bills coaching staff.  He started 3 games in his 4 year career with the Bengals.  I assumed he was a quality QB backing up Andy Dalton.  Why wouldn't he be?

 

He flopped all through training camp.  He showed nothing in pre-season games.  The Bills Management plan for our QB's died right there.

 

Sad that an NFL franchise has to crumble for one bad choice in the off-season.  Very Sad!

If you want to conveniently blame 1 person, blame McDermott.


His collective decisions over the last few years, including the QB situation, have had a far greater impact on the team this year than freaking AJ McCarron!

 

 

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billsfan89 All Pro

billsfan89

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15 hours ago, Idandria said:

He was a flop in camp. He’d probably be slightly better than what we’ve seen from Derek Anderson. To think he would have saved the season is pretty naive. We should have kept Tyrod if anything. 

 

Flop is a strong word in my opinion. AJ wasn't bad in training camp he was just outshined by Peterman and Allen made more wow plays with that cannon he has (Allen also made more questionable plays.) Even if you wanted to argue that a 5th for AJ was simply too good to pass up there was tremendous idiocy in not signing another veteran right after the AJ trade. 

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T master All Pro

T master

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I have a small problem with your opinion of AJ & i know after i explain what you & others may say but here it goes !

 

First AJ was playing behind a unproven O line in a new offensive scheme & because the constancy & continuity wasn't there while AJ was under center he was under constant pressure then throw in the fact that he was working with a WR corp that TO could come back at 44 & humiliate the entire bunch of them didn't help him either !

 

My last point is AJ's last game the Bills 4th preseason game ! He with his leadership took a bunch of players deemed not good enough to make the roster that were cut took those guys & basically willed them to come from behind & win that game, okay they did it against another team that was playing with throw away players but the bottom line is he willed those players to win & that is leadership !

 

The guy never gives up no matter the odds he's up against in his mind it's not over until it's over & with that mentality & his leadership I would have liked to see him with this offense after the Petermen thing went down & with the O line coming together even though it's not a lot better it is better & i think he could have been a plus in a season that has had a lot of let downs but now we will never know !! 

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