Ok All Those Who Want Beane/McDermott Fired? Who Do YOU Want?

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, ngbills said:

How do you know things will get better? What have you seen that indicates this? 

 

It is interesting how fans want to defend their team or their coaches despite what is being seen. Every coach in the first year or two will have those that say "trust the process" or "it takes time" or whatever other excuse. Sometimes you have to trust what your eyes are telling you.

 

 

My eyes are telling me that McDermott can lead and he can coach. My eyes are also telling me that their personnel plan on offense has been flawed and confused. 

[ngbills]

33 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

They have improved the defense.  I believe the offense will follow. 

 

Being optimistic is so much better that running around yelling that the sky is falling.  

 

What is being accomplished by all this negativity? 

 

If I have a choice to believe in people that have devoted their adult life to footfall or the people freaking out on TBD, I will choose the former. 

They are 14th in yards allowed and 22nd in points allowed. That is considered improved? They were 17th and 19th in 2016 and 15th and 19th in 2015. So we are almost as good as we were before McD was hired. Ok, its debatable but even if we say its improved its not enough to justify how bad the offense is. 

 

Fans can choose their own behaviors. Some like to watch the games and analyze strategy. Some like the big hits or amazing plays. Some like the commercials or the dances or whatever. Being negative as you call it is not trying to accomplish anything. It is a discussion that people like to have as what they enjoy talking about. Its a debate - is the team headed in the right direction, what players should they keep, who should they draft etc. Its part of the fun for many people. While others have a mindset of just watch and be a cheerleader. Everyone on your team is the best and when they leave they are now the worst. 

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My eyes are telling me that McDermott can lead and he can coach. My eyes are also telling me that their personnel plan on offense has been flawed and confused. 

Why can he coach if his offense has been this flawed? Is offense not important? In todays football arguably much more important. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by ngbills

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Why can he coach if his offense has been this flawed? Is offense not important? In todays football arguably much more important. 

 

Because I don't think the offense is flawed through coaching. It is flawed through the most pathetic collection of offensive talent I have ever seen on an NFL team. It is talent evaluation sinking this offense. They just have a lot of really bad players. There only two players on this offense in my view (McCoy and Dawkins) who would start for ANY of the other 31 teams in the league.

 

Their personnel decisions on offense have sucked. Making coaching it almost impossible. 

[longtimebillsfan]

52 minutes ago, ngbills said:

How do you know things will get better? What have you seen that indicates this? 

 

It is interesting how fans want to defend their team or their coaches despite what is being seen. Every coach in the first year or two will have those that say "trust the process" or "it takes time" or whatever other excuse. Sometimes you have to trust what your eyes are telling you.

 

I ask again.

For the "what did you expect" or "they have nothing to work with" crowd:

 

Why is hard to see that they are historically bad? This is beyond the normal we knew it would be like this. They are on pace to break some records for ineptitude. Think about this:

 

They have half as many points scored as the 49ers and CJ Beathard led offense. The team lost both its starting QB and RB. An awful team. I could down the list of other teams and you will find more of the same. It is atrocious. And here we go trotting out a guy that throws a pick every 8 pass attempts and has no business being in the league. 

How do you know things won't get better?

 

As far as your question of "What have you seen that indicates this?"  For one thing, they got the Bills to the playoffs last year.  I know, you will probably say they backed in.  The fact is the won enough games to qualify for the playoffs.  Management is getting us out of a financial mess.  This season needed to happen.  We are all guessing what will happen.  Until I am proven wrong, I like to believe that things will improve.  You like to things will stay the same or get worse.

 

I prefer my outlook.  If focusing on all the bad things that can happen in the future  brings you comfort, then best of luck to you.

 

 

[ngbills]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Because I don't think the offense is flawed through coaching. It is flawed through the most pathetic collection of offensive talent I have ever seen on an NFL team. It is talent evaluation sinking this offense. They just have a lot of really bad players. There only two players on this offense in my view (McCoy and Dawkins) who would start for ANY of the other 31 teams in the league.

 

Their personnel decisions on offense have sucked. Making coaching it almost impossible. 

I agree with you that. I guess I find it hard to believe that McD and Beane are so out of sync that this should not fall on McD. How can he be trusted as a coach when he allowed his team to go into the season with these players? Its beyond belief. My opinion is his ego is so big he thinks players matter less than coaches. I have been around many coaches with that mindset. That may work in high school or even college to an extent. But not in the NFL. Even Belichek who gets so much credit would not be who he is without Brady. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

..maybe Rick Pitino can make the transition...............

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

I agree with you that. I guess I find it hard to believe that McD and Beane are so out of sync that this should not fall on McD. How can he be trusted as a coach when he allowed his team to go into the season with these players? Its beyond belief. My opinion is his ego is so big he thinks players matter less than coaches. I have been around many coaches with that mindset. That may work in high school or even college to an extent. But not in the NFL. Even Belichek who gets so much credit would not be who he is without Brady. 

 

I didn't say it didn't fall on him. You asked what my eyes told me. My eyes told me the Head Coach can coach. My eyes also tell me that the offensive personnel evaluation of the pair of them is bad. I was not absolving McDermott of any fault. I was separating coaching from talent evaluation. 

[ngbills]

14 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

How do you know things won't get better?

 

As far as your question of "What have you seen that indicates this?"  For one thing, they got the Bills to the playoffs last year.  I know, you will probably say they backed in.  The fact is the won enough games to qualify for the playoffs.  Management is getting us out of a financial mess.  This season needed to happen.  We are all guessing what will happen.  Until I am proven wrong, I like to believe that things will improve.  You like to things will stay the same or get worse.

 

I prefer my outlook.  If focusing on all the bad things that can happen in the future  brings you comfort, then best of luck to you.

 

 

We both want the same thing. I just dont have the "trust them or they know best mindset". I am not impressed and dont have faith in them with that I have seen thus far. The offense and Peterman repeatedly starting is beyond comprehension. 

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I didn't say it didn't fall on him. You asked what my eyes told me. My eyes told me the Head Coach can coach. My eyes also tell me that the offensive personnel evaluation of the pair of them is bad. I was not absolving McDermott of any fault. I was separating coaching from talent evaluation. 

Which begs the question "can you win without talent"? I think we are seeing the answer this year. What do we do if McD can coach but sucks at player evaluation? That sound like he is better suited to be a Def Coord than a head coach. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by ngbills

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Which begs the question "can you win without talent"? I think we are seeing the answer this year. What do we do if McD can coach but sucks at player evaluation? That sound like he is better suited to be a Def Coord than a head coach. 

 

That is why my view is that they both get this offseason and a go at improving the mess they have created. But if it doesn't work and my view at the end of it is "McDermott is still coaching his ass off" then my answer would be to fire Beane, take all personnel control from McDermott and hire a proper experienced GM above him. If he doesn't like that I'd move on from him too. 

[Augie]

13 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

..maybe Rick Pitino can make the transition...............

 

So we have to build a brothel at OBD? It may help in FA. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, Augie said:

 

So we have to build a brothel at OBD? It may help in FA. 

 

 

...hell I'm in.......and I can't dribble.............

[Billsfan1972]

13 minutes ago, ngbills said:

We both want the same thing. I just dont have the "trust them or they know best mindset". I am not impressed and dont have faith in them with that I have seen thus far. The offense and Peterman repeatedly starting is beyond comprehension. 

Which begs the question "can you win without talent"? I think we are seeing the answer this year. What do we do if McD can coach but sucks at player evaluation? That sound like he is better suited to be a Def Coord than a head coach. 

Bang on......  He has put together an offense so behind the NFL, that as HC there is no way they can attract FA's without grossly over-valuing and over-paying in addition to completely overhauling that side with a new OC and little faith from the fans that he can do it.   

 

What he has done in just over a year to the Offense is unacceptable and he has shown not a inkling that he has any idea or thought as to how to fix it.......  Maybe the Wishbone?

[longtimebillsfan]

44 minutes ago, ngbills said:

We both want the same thing. I just dont have the "trust them or they know best mindset". I am not impressed and dont have faith in them with that I have seen thus far. The offense and Peterman repeatedly starting is beyond comprehension. 

Which begs the question "can you win without talent"? I think we are seeing the answer this year. What do we do if McD can coach but sucks at player evaluation? That sound like he is better suited to be a Def Coord than a head coach. 

Happy Halloween!   Have a great evening.

[JM57]

4 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

The thing that I do not understand with those that are freaking out.  We expected this season to be what it had become.   Things will get better beginning next year.  Take a deep breath....and relax.

Who expected the worst offense of the modern era? Who expected the "franchise quarterback" to average 165 yards a game? The team was supposed to be bad but competitive with glimmers of hope and growth. They're bad, have been blown out multiple times and have shown no hope for the future on offense.

Edited November 1, 2018 by JM57

[longtimebillsfan]

11 minutes ago, JM57 said:

Who expected the worst offense of the modern era? Who expected the "franchise quarterback" to average 165 yards a game? The team was supposed to be bad but competitive with glimmers of hope and growth. They're bad, have been blown out multiple times and have shown no hope for the future on offense.

Please see my other posts.  This gets repetitive.

[Jrb1979]

40 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Please see my other posts.  This gets repetitive.

I am guessing you expected not only the Bills would be bad and knew next season that they would get the offense fixed. Did you think the offense would be this bad considering in an era where its easy to score double digits in points? 

[#34fan]

Stanford's Dave Shaw.... NFL chops... Class.... Eye for talent.... He's the only college coach I've seen host the NFL draft... Pay him whatever he wants. -Within reason, of course.

[longtimebillsfan]

27 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

I am guessing you expected not only the Bills would be bad and knew next season that they would get the offense fixed. Did you think the offense would be this bad considering in an era where its easy to score double digits in points? 

You got me.  Have a good night.

[reddogblitz]

Hardball

[Pbomb]

Don’t matter who they want, they will just want them fired too in a couple months

[Straight Hucklebuck]

13 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

You....provide.....nothing

I think if you are going to swing to the opposite end of the spectrum and go for an offensive coach who wants to chuck it, you have to get the innovator, not the assistant. 

 

You need Mike Leach himself, not Mike’s QB Coach. 

 

Chip Kelly was made fun of, and rightly so for his huge ego, but look at how many ideas he brought to college and the NFL that have stayed. 

 

You want the Innovator I think, not simply an assistant from the Rams or Chiefs. 

 

 

[JM57]

8 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Please see my other posts.  This gets repetitive.

Typing this takes longer than answering two yes or no questions. Did you expect them to be THIS bad? Especially on offense? Yes or no?

[Billsfan1972]

26 minutes ago, JM57 said:

Typing this takes longer than answering two yes or no questions. Did you expect them to be THIS bad? Especially on offense? Yes or no?

Yes he did......  He has it all figured out if you don't know by now and was ready for this dumpster fire......  The question is does he pay for season tickets & waste his Sundays watching all three hours of this garbage the Bills feed us fans.

[outsidethebox]

If Hugh Jackson can go 1-31 in two years, give McD at least until next year. 

[Billsfan1972]

?

Now that's the attitude.......

[longtimebillsfan]

3 hours ago, JM57 said:

Typing this takes longer than answering two yes or no questions. Did you expect them to be THIS bad? Especially on offense? Yes or no?

Yes or no. 

[BuffaLoko]

On 10/30/2018 at 3:33 PM, jkirchofer said:

I want someone that knows how to build an offense. Someone that can evaluate talent beyond how they fit into a culture. I want someone that can call plays on offense when needed. Good Defensive Coordinators are a dime a dozen. Defenses no longer win in this NFL. They keep you in games, but they do not win them. McDermott is a glorified D-Coordinator, who is over his head as a head coach.

...chofer, I wonder if you think the person you want exists and is available in the market right no, if you don´t state that you're just putting words to the ideal candidate´s profile, and I think the question is looking for names, feasible solutions, thanks in advance if you could complete or round up your answer...

[Mark92]

You can't have it both ways.  You either get a Defensive coach who can or can't build a good defense.  Or..... You get an offensive coach who can or can't build a good offense.  McDermott has PROVEN he can build a good defense.  The offense part is all about the coordinator, coaches he brings in and players Beane brings in.  You either score 40 points a game with a great offense or you don't allow 20 points a game with a great defense.  It would be great to have both but who does that? 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Mark92

[longtimebillsfan]

3 hours ago, JM57 said:

Typing this takes longer than answering two yes or no questions. Did you expect them to be THIS bad? Especially on offense? Yes or no?

Seriously,  with the ask up qb mess, a questionable offensive line, and weak receiving corp, it was obvious that we would struggle to score points.  Having Allen go down with an injury for an extended period of time made it worse.   At least with Allen playing, we were accomplishing something. 

 

Did I expect them to be historically bad?  I never thought about that.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Most if not all of his offensive staff needs to be fired. When you are being compared to the worst offense's ever, doesn't every coach that has anything to do with it need to be fired? We are on track to be THE worst Offense in the history of the NFL with rules in place to promote offensive numbers. This offense should be considered the worst ever in the NFL if they are even close to the record.

[jkirchofer]

2 hours ago, BuffaLoko said:

...chofer, I wonder if you think the person you want exists and is available in the market right no, if you don´t state that you're just putting words to the ideal candidate´s profile, and I think the question is looking for names, feasible solutions, thanks in advance if you could complete or round up your answer...

I posted these names on 10/30.....These are my ideal candidates: Shanahan, Schottenheimer, David Shaw or Jim Harbaugh

[The_Dude]

I don't have a name -- but I want somebody who can work with Allen.

 

I'm now of the mind that McDermott and Allen are completely exclusive ideas. 

 

In order for Allen to work, McDermott must go. He clearly has no idea how to run an offense, and a head coach, even from a defensive background, needs to be able to put together an offense, and there's no reason to believe McDermott is that guy. In fact, there's ample evidence to suggest the opposite. 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Belichik and Belichik

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 10/30/2018 at 2:37 PM, thenorthremembers said:

Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben, Patrick Mahomes.

 

Id even settle for Russ Wilson.  Again, coaches are all pretty much the same.  If they have a good qb they win.  If they don't, they won't 

 

What was Jeff Fischer's problem then? Did Goff really improve that much from year one to year two just by himself?

 

How about Andy Reid? Every sing QB he has ever had has been good? Is he just lucky or does he know a good QB when he sees one? Meanwhile our HC believe's Peterman and one of the biggest projects to come out in a long time is the answer.

 

I agree with the OP that right now we don't have any obvious names that jump out as guys you want to build your offense. But usually those names start to materialize towards the end of the season and playoffs so we will have to re-evaluate at the end of the year.

 

With the defnese playing well, rather than fire McDermott I would rather see us bring in an OC that has a great track record and head coach persona. Similar to how the Rams are run with McVay and Wade Phiilips. Give the OC total control of the offensive roster. The only guy that immediately comes to mind right now is Norv Turner. Norv has been getting praise for what he is doing with Cam Newton and the Panthers this year. I would prefer a young OC just not sure who that is at the moment.

17 hours ago, The_Dude said:

I don't have a name -- but I want somebody who can work with Allen.

 

I'm now of the mind that McDermott and Allen are completely exclusive ideas. 

 

In order for Allen to work, McDermott must go. He clearly has no idea how to run an offense, and a head coach, even from a defensive background, needs to be able to put together an offense, and there's no reason to believe McDermott is that guy. In fact, there's ample evidence to suggest the opposite. 

 

Exactly why we need our version of Wade Phillips for our offense. A guy who will be pretty much Head Coach B to McDermott's Head Coach A. A guy that can make all the decisions on that side of the ball. A guy that still wants to game plan but not have to deal with all the other BS of being a head coach. Of course we may have to pay him like he is a head coach.

21 hours ago, jkirchofer said:

I posted these names on 10/30.....These are my ideal candidates: Shanahan, Schottenheimer, David Shaw or Jim Harbaugh

I love the idea of Mike Shanahan as an OC for us. He could possibly fit as a guy that wants to game plan and call plays but not deal with the every minute of the day stress of being a HC. He would undoubtedly want to be paid like a head coach but I would be fine with that. 

 

Schottenheimer is 75, 9 years older than both Norv Turner and Shanahan. I think he is done coaching.

 

The other two would only come to be Head Coach's. I would love David Shaw even if it means restarting from ground zero with our defense. I don't think Jim Harbaugh is worth having to potentially start over with our defense.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 10/31/2018 at 8:18 PM, #34fan said:

Stanford's Dave Shaw.... NFL chops... Class.... Eye for talent.... He's the only college coach I've seen host the NFL draft... Pay him whatever he wants. -Within reason, of course.

 

x100

 

Shaw is a great choice. And I would pay him just about anything south of Jon Gruden numbers. 

 

I think David Shaw is your answer OP. Only problem is I feel like Shaw has been a top candidate for several years now and has probably already declined several HC gigs. Hard to imagine he would take a job in Buffalo. And it wouldn't help if we canned our current coach after two seasons. And the one before that was canned before he finished his third season.

On 10/30/2018 at 3:22 PM, wppete said:

Every time this question came up over the years I would say get John Gruden away from

MNF and sign him as the Bills coach.

? Boy was I ever wrong ?.

 

We essentially already have our version of Gruden in Beane and McDermottt. They gutted the roster of talent but at a much cheaper management cost. So we do have that going for us. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 10/31/2018 at 9:02 AM, blacklabel said:

 

They'll be fine. It's not about having an "innovative offensive coach" right now. It's a talent deficiency on that side of the ball. Throw Andy Reid in there, Matt Nagy, Sean McVay, whoever you want, they wouldn't score a whole lot more than Daboll has. 

 

McVay and Reid are Doer's. What I mean by that is they recognize where they are deficient on offense and they don't hesitate to bring in the correct personnel to make it work. They would never stand having such terrible personnel.  So add a couple of upgrades to the roster on offense and better game planning and play calling and we wouldn't be on pace to be the worst offense in the modern era.  

[wppete]

14 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

We essentially already have our version of Gruden in Beane and McDermottt. They gutted the roster of talent but at a much cheaper management cost. So we do have that going for us. 

 

You are absolutely right about that. McDermott and Gruden have massive Egos and thats hurting both teams.

[thenorthremembers]

31 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

What was Jeff Fischer's problem then? Did Goff really improve that much from year one to year two just by himself?

 

How about Andy Reid? Every sing QB he has ever had has been good? Is he just lucky or does he know a good QB when he sees one? Meanwhile our HC believe's Peterman and one of the biggest projects to come out in a long time is the answer.

 

 

 

So if your theory is true why didnt Belichick win more before Brady?   Take three superbowl winning coaches and compare their history prior to having a great quarterback and after

Coach	Win Pct Pre Great QB	Win pct with Great QB
Carrol	.489	.675
Fox	.472	.791
Belichick	.427	.678

 

Did these guys suddenly become football genius, or did they run into some of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game?    Quarterbacks can make an average Coach look good, but they can not make complete dolts like Jeff Fischer and Mike McCoy into great coaches.   My thinking has been, and will continue to be that coaches (besides the complete idiots) are so similar in the plays they run and the decisions they make, that their existence is negligible when it comes to impact on the overall record of a team.  Great quarterbacks have, and will continue to be the great equalizer in football.   Its the reason that aside from 1 or 2 anomalies a year, teams like the Patriots, Steelers, and Packers wil l continually make the playoffs year in and year out, despite their coach

Edited November 2, 2018 by thenorthremembers

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 minute ago, thenorthremembers said:

 

 

Coach	Win Pct Pre Great QB	Win pct with Great QB
Carrol	.489	.675
Fox	.472	.791
Belichick	.427	.678

 

 

What was Belicheck's record with Cassell? 11-5? Garrapollo was 2-0 as a starter? Belicheck is a great coach because he is good at what he does. It's why Brady has 5 rings and Peyton only has two. Both QBs are great but one also was supported by a great coach.

 

Carrol won because of a historically great defense. They were the #1 ppg defense for four straight years I think? Wilson is good but he's not on the great level until he consistently wins and plays well with a mediocre defense like Rodgers has most his career. 

 

Ried has made the playoffs virtually every year of his career. Mahomes is lighting it up in only his second season and first year starting. Reid is a great Head Coach who identifies good QBs and get's the most out of them. McVay appears to be of the same mold.

[blacklabel]

3 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

McVay and Reid are Doer's. What I mean by that is they recognize where they are deficient on offense and they don't hesitate to bring in the correct personnel to make it work. They would never stand having such terrible personnel.  So add a couple of upgrades to the roster on offense and better game planning and play calling and we wouldn't be on pace to be the worst offense in the modern era.  

 

I understand what you're saying but the two coaches you mentioned aren't responsible for bringing in talent. They refer to their GM and tell them which guys they like and the GM will do what he can to bring in those guys but it's not like Sean McVay just grabs a cart and goes player shopping and takes whoever he wants. 

 

You should read the interview Jay Skurski did with Brandon Beane. Came out today. Beane is well aware of where the offense is at and there are obviously plans to add talent in the off-season. But this past off-season it was really about them getting out of those contracts that have them eating $50 million in dead money right now. He stated that they definitely did their due diligence and made attempts to get different players to come here but their money situation made it tough for them to be competitive in terms of contract offers. Plus, any offensive skill players are gonna be hesitant to come to a team in the midst of a rebuild with a lot of inexperienced players on the roster, especially if they have offers somewhere else. Not like the front office just sat back and said, "Screw it, whatever happens happens" they shopped around but just didn't have the money this year.

 

This next off-season should be super interesting. Bills should be big time players as they'll have plenty of cash to throw around.

 

And regarding the topic of this thread, McBeane isn't going anywhere. Beane pretty much says so in the interview. The Pegulas are all-in on these guys and their vision for this team and they will give them the time they need. Beane said himself he wouldn't have come here if ownership did not have the long-term outcome in mind. It's painful at the moment because they're not scoring any points but I think these dudes deserve a little patience. They took a rag-tag squad to the playoffs last year and have built an impressive defense that will (hopefully) only get better. Give 'em a chance to build the offense and let's see what happens.