Josh Allen injury: “Week-to-Week” with elbow sprain; Returned to practice 11/2

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Wouldn't Allen be in between a pitcher & position player?  I don't think Didi throws the ball 30 times in a game and more than 150 times during a week

 

EDIT: http://riveraveblues.com/2018/10/thoughts-following-didi-gregorius-tommy-john-surgery-179974/

 

"The typical Tommy John surgery rehab timetable is 6-9 months for position players but that does vary by player and position. Catchers need more rehab time than outfielders, for example. Gleyber Torres had his Tommy John surgery in June and was more or less ready to go by January, though he had surgery on his non-throwing elbow, which is a different animal. Gregorius needs surgery on his throwing elbow. Jay Jaffe did some digging and found that middle infielders who had Tommy John surgery on their throwing elbow missed ten months, on average. That puts Gregorius on track to return next August. Tony Womack returned in six months. Rafael Furcal was out 15 months. Mets utility man T.J. Rivera had Tommy John surgery last September and missed the entire 2018 season with setbacks and whatnot. There’s a wide range of possible outcomes here. Point is, no one really know when Gregorius will be back. There is a chance — a pretty good chance, really — he will play next season. Possibly even as early as May or June. That seems to be the best case scenario."

Edited October 16, 2018 by dave mcbride

[GG]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

He throws 3-4 times between innings every inning!  He also averages 375 assists per year not including preseason etc. NFL QBs average around 450 throws per full season. Not much difference, and they don't throw it as hard as an MLB shortstop.

 

I think you're forgetting the 3 weekly practice sessions, where Allen probably throws at least 50 passes

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

And he's also a regular contributor on Sirius/XM NFL channel.   This is what he does when there's an injury to a significant player.  LAMPing is part of his job as a medical analyst to the media.

In that sense of LAMP, yes I agree. I was saying that he is somewhat ignoring the initial report from the team that they don’t believe it to be serious, and the team is who saw the MRI. If he factors that in, I don’t know if he pushes out a headline like he does this morning. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[dave mcbride]

9 minutes ago, GG said:

 

I think you're forgetting the 3 weekly practice sessions, where Allen probably throws at least 50 passes

baseball players throw the ball literally all the time when they're not playing on the field. And they literally have practice most days before night games. I guess my point is that they both throw it a lot, although MLB shortstops make far more higher stress throws. That's not up for debate.

9 minutes ago, GG said:

 

I think you're forgetting the 3 weekly practice sessions, where Allen probably throws at least 50 passes

 

Regardless of this discussion,  if there is any sort of tear, the Bills should put him on the shelf and make him get the surgery (and if I'm Allen, I'm demanding that I get it). The last thing they need is a situation like Tannehill or Luck or RG III - guys who played while injured, which ended up making the situation a whole lot worse. He's not going to accomplish anything this year anyway with this garbage offensive roster.

Edited October 16, 2018 by dave mcbride

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

I hate to add to the negativity but they went about the QB position all wrong coming in to this season. they put the kid in the fire after nate failed again and allen got beat up all to hell while having only peterman to come in only to have it back fire big time.

 

poor decision keeping peterman on the roster and could prove to be the dagger in McDs buffalo career?

 

they still may be able to right the ship and one can only hope anderson can hold the position for the remainder of the season?

 

they're not making the post season this year so no need to rush the kid back and it's critical McD/Beane use the off season to bolster the OL and get the kid some legitimate receivers.

 

if they don't, his tenure could end up like those before him. fans are not going to have the patience to give him 5 years like some here believe they will?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by no name

[Reed83HOF]

Encouraging news...

Greg Vorse TV @GregVorse
 32m32 minutes ago
More Greg Vorse TV Retweeted David J. Chao, MD
How rare is Tommy John Surgery in quarterbacks? I’ve found Jake Delhomme in 2007 and Rob Johnson (yes him, #Bills fans) in 2004 as the only QBs that have had it in the last 15 or more years.

[Coach Tuesday]

Holy hell the Bills screwed this up.  All of it - shedding talent, waiting until 2018 to draft a QB, trading all of those picks for said QB, surrounding him with no talent and a weak scheme, failing to provide him with a competent OC, QB coach or veteran backup, and now getting him seriously injured.  This is an abject, unqualified disaster.

[jo39416]

1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said:

Encouraging news...

Greg Vorse TV @GregVorse
 32m32 minutes ago
More Greg Vorse TV Retweeted David J. Chao, MD
How rare is Tommy John Surgery in quarterbacks? I’ve found Jake Delhomme in 2007 and Rob Johnson (yes him, #Bills fans) in 2004 as the only QBs that have had it in the last 15 or more years.

 

Not sure how thats encouraging... seems exactly like the thing that would happen to the Bills.

[Heavy Kevi]

UCL?!

 

Oh no....

 

Well I guess this is why I didn't want him playing behind this line. But you can't leave Peterman out there, can you? CAN YOU?

[Reed83HOF]

Just now, jo39416 said:

 

Not sure how thats encouraging... seems exactly like the thing that would happen to the Bills.

Sarcasm obviously...

 

and it's that's, not thats 

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, HansLanda said:

 

If he needs surgery, this front office will get to select another QB. Something that generally doesn't happen. 

I don't wish injury on anyone, but you have to wonder if all that prayer actually paid off for McDermott.

 

Not only is this season forgiven, but they may actually get a mulligan on what may very well have been a wasted pick.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by LSHMEAB

[MAJBobby]

Great I wont rush back to go to or turn on a game either 

If he needs surgery there is No way you cannot take a QB with the 1st overall we will have at end of year 

[Mike in Syracuse]

28 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He throws 3-4 times between innings every inning!  He also averages 375 assists per year not including preseason etc. NFL QBs average around 450 throws per full season. Not much difference, and they don't throw it as hard as an MLB shortstop.

I would think a QB throws way more than 150 throws per week.    They probably throw 20 times warming up, 30 throws during WR work, then the actual throws during practice.

 

I'd find it hard to image that an NFL quarterback doesn't throw a football well over 100 times a day

[Matt_In_NH]

Does not rushing him back mean he could play if he was a superstar but since he is playing poorly its a convenient reason to play someone else for a while?

[ROCBillsBeliever]

2 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

It's a very simple offense

 

1st down - Hand off to McCoy who gets hit as soon as he gets the ball ... struggles to gain 1 yard

2nd down - Hand off to Ivory who goes up the middle for 3 yards

3rd down - Either Anderson runs for his life and throws it away or Peterman throws an INT.

4th down - An adventure as Bojorquez attempts to punt

 

Hey, don't publish that script! You know Belicheck reads these boards, don't you? He will learn all our secrets, man! 

[Jerome007]

If he misses 6 games it's bad enough. If it's some of 2019 too, damn! Really, really awful. It looked so mundane as fro as NFL contacts go.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Mike in Syracuse said:

I would think a QB throws way more than 150 throws per week.    They probably throw 20 times warming up, 30 throws during WR work, then the actual throws during practice.

 

I'd find it hard to image that an NFL quarterback doesn't throw a football well over 100 times a day

My point is that middle infielders also throw all of the time too. They take fielding practice most days of the week. I have no idea who throws more over the course of a season, but given that the baseball season is longer (especially for non-playoff teams), I suspect that middle infielders might throw more. But at the end of the day, it's probably a wash. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by dave mcbride

[YoloinOhio]

12 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Does not rushing him back mean he could play if he was a superstar but since he is playing poorly its a convenient reason to play someone else for a while?

No. He can’t push the ball down the field with a sprained UCL. He tried to throw after he injured it, and could not. “Week to week” is pretty accurate at this point. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[BuffaloBaumer]

I'll assume he misses all of 2019 until I hear differently. The good news is that they will be forced to draft a qb in the first after they go 3-13. This could be a total blessing in disguise because Allen never had it to begin with. Let's go Sabres

[LSHMEAB]

37 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He throws 3-4 times between innings every inning!  He also averages 375 assists per year not including preseason etc. NFL QBs average around 450 throws per full season. Not much difference, and they don't throw it as hard as an MLB shortstop.

That's somewhat contradictory.

 

The 3-4 throws between innings are not of the close play at first high velocity variety. I don't think you can factor them into the equation when comparing a SS to a QB anymore than you can a QB warming up before the game.

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[YoloinOhio]

5 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

I'll assume he misses all of 2019 until I hear differently. The good news is that they will be forced to draft a qb in the first after they go 3-13. This could be a total blessing in disguise because Allen never had it to begin with. Let's go Sabres

And this is what I mean by Chao’s morning headline 

[ctk232]

15 hours ago, Tyrion said:

 

 

What is this actually going to do? He sees that Anderson prepares differently? How? He studies film? I'm guessing Allen already does this. Is anyone doubting Alen's commitment or how he prepares? No. 

 

The value of Anderson is having him in Allen's ear WHILE ALLEN IS THE STARTER. 

 

Not watching journeyman Derek Anderson play football. 

 

 

I do, too...he's looking more and more comfortable and he's self-correcting the obvious mistakes. That's why he needs to play. 

 

 

So you want him to sit against one of the worst defenses in football and come back against the Patriots? 

If he injured his UCL? Yes. If it's bad he's likely out against the Pats anyway. I'm still hopeful for him, but playing injured isn't going to help anyone here. Having a week to sit down might actually do him more good regardless, synthesize performance to date, take a week for whatever is there with the elbow to dissipate, and prepare for NE (barring any unknown elbow status at this point.)

Edited October 16, 2018 by ctk232

[Roundybout]

21 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Great I wont rush back to go to or turn on a game either 

If he needs surgery there is No way you cannot take a QB with the 1st overall we will have at end of year 

 

You trade back and draft one either second round or maybe late first. 

8 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

I'll assume he misses all of 2019 until I hear differently. The good news is that they will be forced to draft a qb in the first after they go 3-13. This could be a total blessing in disguise because Allen never had it to begin with. Let's go Sabres

[ctk232]

14 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

This QB has been around long enough to have seen everything and if they simplify the offense he should do okay.  Mostly all he should be doing is handing off to McCoy, Ivory in a limited passing scheme. Daboll's offense wasn't going to fool defenses anyway so reduce it to round 20 scripted plays with dump offs, screens to Shady. 

 

With Anderson running the offense we will soon see what an experienced NFL QB can do with this surrounding cast. All he really need do is not pull a Peterman and not turn the ball over.

Again, Anderson isn't going to be the litmus test you may think he is. He may be better than Peterman, and hell, he may even be better in that limited capacity. But he won't give you much more to look at beyond this week if he plays.

[Frez]

Did I hear this correctly? Allen may be out all of next season too? 

[dave mcbride]

11 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

That's somewhat contradictory.

 

The 3-4 throws between innings are not of the close play at first high velocity variety. I don't think you can factor them into the equation when comparing a SS to a QB anymore than you can a QB warming up before the game.

 

 

Regardless, it is not debatable that an MLB shortstop makes more high stress throws than a QB. All of those guys starting at the MLB level are guys who can throw 95, and they throw as hard as they can on many plays. 

 

My larger point, if you look above, is that a QB isn't an MLB pitcher and I honestly don't think the recovery time should be 15 months as it is for MLB pitchers. They just don't throw that much or nearly that hard. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by dave mcbride

[targetweight185]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I think this could be right. He was actually pretty darn accurate vs. Minnesota and late vs. SD, but he lost his accuracy in the GB game. The first thing that goes with UCL injuries is accuracy, and he was not accurate vs GB or against TN on deeper throws (and yes, I know he had accuracy issues already).

 

Bear in mind also that he was a pitcher in HS and was throwing low 90s then. Plus he was lighting up the radar gun all offseason to boost his draft stock. Wear and tear is how these injuries happen.

 

Let me ask you a question. Are you blind? Did you not see the Texans player smash his helmet into Josh's elbow. This was a blunt force injury and if you debate that you're crazy.

 

Here's the video for you:

https://twitter.com/meagantownsend/status/1052212802490957824

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by targetweight185

[ctk232]

13 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

I was wrong about thad Lewis only having 7 days, he had a month, but was only a 3rd year pro bouncing around on practice squads. In the game he played here he went 19/32 for 216 yards with 2 passing touchdowns and 0 interceptions and added 7 carries for 17 yards and 1 rushing touchdown

 

the bills lost that game 27-24 to the bengals in ot. Those are solid stats from a 3rd year pro who was starting for a team that had traded for him a month earlier.

 

Derek Anderson is a 13 year vet, been to the pro bowl. He can get ready in what amounts to 10 to 14 days.

 

Not expecting to be blown away or impressed with his play, but I do expect to see actual qb play something we havent seen from peterman minus 1 pass.

Well his last three starts, going back to 2016, he threw two INTs in the Falcons and Bucs, losing to both teams albeit fairly close scores. Threw an INT on his first play against the Seahawks and was pulled for Newton again. Think he may have had some garbage time play last year in the Wild Card game too. Point is 7/14 day prep or not, I honestly don't know how much better he will be than Peterman. I can't imagine it can get any worse, but how much better is it?

 

And of all those seasons qualifying him as a "vet" he's had three seasons where he put up more TDs than INTs. I get that I can pull any stats any day, but the point is just because the guy has been in the league for multiple years doesn't automatically qualify him in any regard. 

 

Funny part is I'm not entirely sure it matters who starts between Peterman and Anderson anymore. I'll still watch, hope for a win, and be fine either way knowing that this team wasn't meant to compete this year and just accepting the rebuild for what it is.

Edited October 16, 2018 by ctk232

[LSHMEAB]

11 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Regardless, it is not debatable that an MLB shortstop makes more high stress throws than a QB. All of those guys starting at the MLB level are guys who can throw 95, and they throw as hard as they can on many plays. 

 

My larger point, if you look above, is that a QB isn't an MLB pitcher and I honestly don't think the recovery time should be 15 months as it is for MLB pitchers. They just don't throw that much or nearly that hard. 

I agree with your broader point.

 

It's not just about velocity either. Off speed pitches are even more stressful than your run of the mill 4 seam fastball. The odd things an MLB pitcher has to do with his arm are far more complex than an NFL QB, so I would fully expect the recovery time to be lessened for a QB.

 

The thing that makes it tough to gauge is the rarity in which it's occurred. Someone else cited two examples(Delhomme and RJ).

 

Shortstop is probably the wrong position to compare recovery time to. Maybe like corner OF.

Edited October 16, 2018 by LSHMEAB

[Clyde Smith]

11 minutes ago, Frez said:

Did I hear this correctly? Allen may be out all of next season too? 

No way! He will not be out that long. Maybe a couple of weeks.

[YoloinOhio]

13 minutes ago, Frez said:

Did I hear this correctly? Allen may be out all of next season too? 

Depends on what you listened to... 

[george c]

Let him sit for as long as it takes to get a comfortable Josh Allen back. He will learn nothing by playing hurt. 

[DCOrange]

18 minutes ago, Frez said:

Did I hear this correctly? Allen may be out all of next season too? 

 

According to David Chao, that is a possibility if Allen requires surgery.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

13 minutes ago, targetweight185 said:

Here's the video for you:

https://twitter.com/meagantownsend/status/1052212802490957824

 

that doesn't look good to me but I'm no medical expert either.

[bobblehead]

19 minutes ago, Frez said:

Did I hear this correctly? Allen may be out all of next season too? 

Yes. He will be out until 2020 Because we didn’t draft Mahomes 

[Mike in Horseheads]

I 'heard" they called the coroner.

[GG]

20 minutes ago, targetweight185 said:

 

Let me ask you a question. Are you blind? Did you not see the Texans player smash his helmet into Josh's elbow. This was a blunt force injury and if you debate that you're crazy.

 

Here's the video for you:

https://twitter.com/meagantownsend/status/1052212802490957824

 

 

I think his point is that there was already an elbow issue which got totally blown up by that helmet hit, and that's the reason for the severity of the injury

[K-9]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

He throws 3-4 times between innings every inning!  He also averages 375 assists per year not including preseason etc. NFL QBs average around 450 throws per full season. Not much difference, and they don't throw it as hard as an MLB shortstop.

I think throwing a curve ball stresses the arm in ways that QBs never experience, not to mention 95 mph fastballs on a regular basis. For that reason I think pitchers have much more wear and tear on than arms compared to QBs. 

 

I don’t think the same can be said about shortstops, though. Yes, they have many more reps, but QBs are throwing an object 3x heavier and I think that needs to be considered as well.

[YoloinOhio]