Josh Allen injury: “Week-to-Week” with elbow sprain; Returned to practice 11/2

[bobblehead]

27 minutes ago, targetweight185 said:

 

Let me ask you a question. Are you blind? Did you not see the Texans player smash his helmet into Josh's elbow. This was a blunt force injury and if you debate that you're crazy.

 

Here's the video for you:

https://twitter.com/meagantownsend/status/1052212802490957824

 

That’s not the point though.  He was holding that elbow in the GB game. And the next week and onward  on it was one-read, then go consistently. That doesn’t make sense when he’s also taking in and /or shaking apart from defenders head on when running as well. Something didn’t look right in GB and the speculation raised here makes sense when you put things together.  The hit in the Texans game f-ed his elbow up, yes, but it’s plausible that it was already injured (now I’m speculating that the Texans knew this too ).  

Edited October 16, 2018 by bobblehead

[stevewin]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

 

Exactly. He looked absolutely dejected.

I think this could be right. He was actually pretty darn accurate vs. Minnesota and late vs. SD, but he lost his accuracy in the GB game. The first thing that goes with UCL injuries is accuracy, and he was not accurate vs GB or against TN on deeper throws (and yes, I know he had accuracy issues already).

 

Bear in mind also that he was a pitcher in HS and was throwing low 90s then. Plus he was lighting up the radar gun all offseason to boost his draft stock. Wear and tear is how these injuries happen.

The thing is though the final injury occurred as a result of a hit - not throwing.  So is your thought then that it was already injured/hurting - and the hit was something that just put it over the edge?   Seems weird to me to suffer a sprain (classic definition of tear) as a result of a hit - although I guess if it was perfectly placed it could have put force on the bones/joint to stretch/tear the ligament.   Might it be possible it's not a sprain at all - just a contact injury associated with the ligament (contusion/swelling)?   

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, bobblehead said:

That’s not the point though.  He was holding that elbow in the GB game. And the next week and onward  on it was one-read, then go consistently. That doesn’t make sense when he’s also taking in and /or shaking apart from defenders head on when running as well. Something didn’t look right in GB and the speculation raised here makes sense when you put things together.  The hit in the Texans game f-ed his elbow up, yes, but it’s plausible that it was already injured (now I’m speculating that the Texans knew this too ).  

Interesting. That might explain the lack of called go routes and the under thrown balls we didn’t normally see from Allen previously. 

[YoloinOhio]

4 minutes ago, bobblehead said:

That’s not the point though.  He was holding that elbow in the GB game. And the next week and onward  on it was one-read, then go consistently. That doesn’t make sense when he’s also taking in and /or shaking apart from defenders head on when running as well. Something didn’t look right in GB and the speculation raised here makes sense when you put things together.  The hit in the Texans game f-ed his elbow up, yes, but it’s plausible that it was already injured (now I’m speculating that the Texans knew this too ).  

He may have had a contusion? You can play with an elbow contusion. If the team had to decide between that and Peterman, they made the right choice. Texans may have seen it on film and gone after it. All plausible. It’s football, guys play “hurt” every week and the other team tries to exploit that. 

[stevewin]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

He may have had a contusion? You can play with an elbow contusion. If the team had to decide between that and Peterman, they made the right choice. Texans may have seen it on film and gone after it. All plausible. It’s football, guys play “hurt” every week and the other team tries to exploit that. 

That's what I'm wondering (above).  People are going down Tommy John surgery path and not sure any reports have even confirmed tear.  Could it just be a contact injury (pain/swelling) without structural damage (tearing)

[YoloinOhio]

2 minutes ago, stevewin said:

That's what I'm wondering (above).  People are going down Tommy John surgery path and not sure any reports have even confirmed tear.  Could it just be a contact injury (pain/swelling) without structural damage (tearing)

None 

 

only report is that it is “not serious” based on initial MRI

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

None 

 

only report is that it is “not serious” based on initial MRI

 

We're all waiting on Dr. Andrews.

 

That bastard better not be golfing.

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, stevewin said:

The thing is though the final injury occurred as a result of a hit - not throwing.  So is your thought then that it was already injured/hurting - and the hit was something that just put it over the edge?   Seems weird to me to suffer a sprain (classic definition of tear) as a result of a hit - although I guess if it was perfectly placed it could have put force on the bones/joint to stretch/tear the ligament.   Might it be possible it's not a sprain at all - just a contact injury associated with the ligament (contusion/swelling)?   

As Hapless pointed out earlier, he may well have hurt the UCL in the GB game, and it was just a matter of time before a big throw worsened it. Who really knows, though ...

45 minutes ago, targetweight185 said:

 

Let me ask you a question. Are you blind? Did you not see the Texans player smash his helmet into Josh's elbow. This was a blunt force injury and if you debate that you're crazy.

 

Here's the video for you:

https://twitter.com/meagantownsend/status/1052212802490957824

 

See Hapless's earlier post about the GB game. Regardless, he has a UCL injury of some sort. That appears to be undebatable. It's not a bone bruise or anything like that. 

21 minutes ago, bobblehead said:

That’s not the point though.  He was holding that elbow in the GB game. And the next week and onward  on it was one-read, then go consistently. That doesn’t make sense when he’s also taking in and /or shaking apart from defenders head on when running as well. Something didn’t look right in GB and the speculation raised here makes sense when you put things together.  The hit in the Texans game f-ed his elbow up, yes, but it’s plausible that it was already injured (now I’m speculating that the Texans knew this too ).  

Which may be why McDermott was as livid as I've ever seen him. He was apoplectic after that shot.

9 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

None 

 

only report is that it is “not serious” based on initial MRI

It may well prove to be "not serious" (and that's what I'm hoping for, obviously), but if you think the Bills are going to say that it's serious at this point, well ... 

 

As you know, teams seriously under-report and downgrade the seriousness of injuries, and for good reasons.

 

 

27 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I think throwing a curve ball stresses the arm in ways that QBs never experience, not to mention 95 mph fastballs on a regular basis. For that reason I think pitchers have much more wear and tear on than arms compared to QBs. 

 

I don’t think the same can be said about shortstops, though. Yes, they have many more reps, but QBs are throwing an object 3x heavier and I think that needs to be considered as well.

Re: curveballs (and I know I'm getting off-topic a little): https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/sports/baseball/debate-grows-over-how-to-protect-young-pitching-arms.html.

 

It's overuse, not the type of pitch, that's the real culprit. 

[K-9]

9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

As Hapless pointed out earlier, he may well have hurt the UCL in the GB game, and it was just a matter of time before a big throw worsened it. Who really knows, though ...

See Hapless's earlier post about the GB game. Regardless, he has a UCL injury of some sort. That appears to be undebatable. It's not a bone bruise or anything like that. 

Which may be why McDermott was as livid as I've ever seen him. He was apoplectic after that shot.

It may well prove to be "not serious" (and that's what I'm hoping for, obviously), but if you think the Bills are going to say that it's serious at this point, well ... 

 

As you know, teams seriously under-report and downgrade the seriousness of injuries, and for good reasons.

 

 

Re: curveballs (and I know I'm getting off-topic a little): https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/sports/baseball/debate-grows-over-how-to-protect-young-pitching-arms.html.

 

It's overuse, not the type of pitch, that's the real culprit. 

Agreed it’s overuse, which is why I  also mentioned those 95 mile an hour fastballs thrown on a regular basis. I have always understood that the mechanics of a curve stress the arm in unique ways. If there is a new paradigm relative to that, I’m grateful for your clarification. I’ll look forward to reading the Times article you linked. Thanks.

[YoloinOhio]

16 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

 

It may well prove to be "not serious" (and that's what I'm hoping for, obviously), but if you think the Bills are going to say that it's serious at this point, well ... 

 

As you know, teams seriously under-report and downgrade the seriousness of injuries, and for good reasons.

 

 

 

Of course it could be ... i was answering the poster who asked what “confirmed” reports are out there and that is the only report based on the actual MRI 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, GG said:

Isn't LAMP'ing part of his job?  How different are his reports from Schefter's, Rap's, Mort's, etc?

 

Chao is trading on his credentials and credibility as a former NFL team physician to garner attention.

He used to be more cautious and conservative and stick with what he could tell, which is why he was accurate

Recently he's been moving well beyond that.

 

Schefter, Rappaport, and Mort depend upon whatever sources they cultivate

 

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 

That's exactly what McDermott wanted to know after the play, and hopefully they contacted the league about it.

Doesn't help Josh though.

 

1 hour ago, Frez said:

Did I hear this correctly? Allen may be out all of next season too? 

 

If he does have a tear and need Tommy Johns, yes.  But we don't yet know that, it's all speculation.

[oldmanfan]

Ok, anatomy professor time here. It's kind of ridiculous for this doc to try and diagnose what happened with Allen without actually seeing any data, such as the ligament test or the MRI.  Taking a shot on the elbow like he did, and assuming it hit the ulnar nerve, he would have had trouble gripping the ball.  The ulnar nerve supplies the muscles on the little finger side of the hand, and also sensation to that area.  If those were knocked out then he would not have been able to grip the ball well.  If the UCL was bruised, would have caused pain and also difficulty gripping.

 

I read some  where that he had range of motion after the game in the elbow.  That would be reassuring.  I think it's jumping the gun big time to presume a ligament tear of any significance, although the MRI will show that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, targetweight185 said:

Let me ask you a question. Are you blind? Did you not see the Texans player smash his helmet into Josh's elbow. This was a blunt force injury and if you debate that you're crazy.

 

Here's the video for you:

https://twitter.com/meagantownsend/status/1052212802490957824

 

 

It's not necessary to question the guy you're responding to's vision.  We all saw the helmet smash.

 

The guy is influenced (and responding to) my speculation that Josh may have gotten dinged in the Packers game, where he took so much abuse.  All players are hurting and stiff after each game, and especially a QB after a game like that where he's sacked and hit a lot, so it's hard to sort out what is or isn't an actual injury until it impinges function.

 

It was notable in the Tennessee game that 1) the game plan cut way way back on his throws - more than I would have expected even with a commitment to getting the running game in gear 2) he was consistently throwing low, on short tosses where in the past he's been high or accurate.  Hence my speculation that he may have had some arm soreness, maybe a mild sprain that they were already treating with a pitch count and pain management, and a helmet blow that might not have had a severe impact could have worsened it.

 

Or I could be way off base - I admit I'm speculating.  But that's not cause to question a guy's vision and so forth, just question my speculation.  Maybe Daboll just decided Allen can't handle more of a passing game, Allen is suddenly overcompensating for his tendency to throw short passes high, and Benjamin's report that Allen goes in before anyone else for his pregame routine means that Allen has taken up transcendental meditation

 

[LSHMEAB]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Ok, anatomy professor time here. It's kind of ridiculous for this doc to try and diagnose what happened with Allen without actually seeing any data, such as the ligament test or the MRI.  Taking a shot on the elbow like he did, and assuming it hit the ulnar nerve, he would have had trouble gripping the ball.  The ulnar nerve supplies the muscles on the little finger side of the hand, and also sensation to that area.  If those were knocked out then he would not have been able to grip the ball well.  If the UCL was bruised, would have caused pain and also difficulty gripping.

 

I read some  where that he had range of motion after the game in the elbow.  That would be reassuring.  I think it's jumping the gun big time to presume a ligament tear of any significance, although the MRI will show that.

I'm not knocking you specifically, but some of the criticism of this doctor is a little absurd. He's not going to perform surgery via twitter. As an interested observer, I appreciate some insight on the possibilities. If anyone is taking his speculation as fact, that's really on them. He's obviously not making a definitive diagnosis.

 

This is an elbow injury to boot. It's not life or death.

[racketmaster]

Allen has not looked good so this injury gives the Bills an excuse to sit him down without making it about his performance and damaging his confidence as much as outright pulling him would have.

[Jerome007]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's not necessary to question the guy you're responding to's vision.  We all saw the helmet smash.

 

The guy is influenced (and responding to) my speculation that Josh may have gotten dinged in the Packers game, where he took so much abuse.  All players are hurting and stiff after each game, and especially a QB after a game like that where he's sacked and hit a lot, so it's hard to sort out what is or isn't an actual injury until it impinges function.

 

It was notable in the Tennessee game that 1) the game plan cut way way back on his throws - more than I would have expected even with a commitment to getting the running game in gear 2) he was consistently throwing low, on short tosses where in the past he's been high or accurate.  Hence my speculation that he may have had some arm soreness, maybe a mild sprain that they were already treating with a pitch count and pain management, and a helmet blow that might not have had a severe impact could have worsened it.

 

Or I could be way off base - I admit I'm speculating.  But that's not cause to question a guy's vision and so forth, just question my speculation.  Maybe Daboll just decided Allen can't handle more of a passing game, Allen is suddenly overcompensating for his tendency to throw short passes high, and Benjamin's report that Allen goes in before anyone else for his pregame routine means that Allen has taken up transcendental meditation

 

Plausible indeed but the Bills would never say it as they would be penalized for not disclosing Allen's injury

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm not knocking you specifically, but some of the criticism of this doctor is a little absurd. He's not going to perform surgery via twitter. As an interested observer, I appreciate some insight on the possibilities. If anyone is taking his speculation as fact, that's really on them. He's obviously not making a definitive diagnosis.

 

This is an elbow injury to boot. It's not life or death.

I see your point.  It 's just that you don't want to fuel unwarranted speculation.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Plausible indeed but the Bills would never say it as they would be penalized for not disclosing Allen's injury

 

Exactly

 

The truth is probably way more fluid and less nefarious.  They don't do MRIs on every player's every limb after every game.  Probably just about every player who takes significant snaps is getting some sort of training services before and after every game.   If it all got reported, every OL on every team would be on injury report every week by mid-season 'cuz I hear they're all getting knees drained and toradol injections by then. It's probably impossible to sort what's bruising/soreness that will wear off vs. what's a potential injury.

[YoloinOhio]

a person with direct knowledge of Josh Allen's injury tells The Associated Press the Buffalo Bills rookie quarterback has been diagnosed with a sprained right elbow on his throwing arm and is not expected to play against Indianapolis on Sunday.

The person says Allen's playing status is considered week to week as opposed to being indefinite. The person spoke to The Associated Press on Tuesday on the condition of anonymity because the team has not revealed the nature of the injury.

Edited October 16, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[One Buffalo]

If the sprained elbow report it true then that is good news... much better than the UCL reports

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm not knocking you specifically, but some of the criticism of this doctor is a little absurd. He's not going to perform surgery via twitter. As an interested observer, I appreciate some insight on the possibilities. If anyone is taking his speculation as fact, that's really on them. He's obviously not making a definitive diagnosis.

 

This is an elbow injury to boot. It's not life or death.

 

I'm probably the most critical and I'll stand by it. 

 

For Chao to report that it's probably an UCL injury watching film of a trainer doing the milking test on the sideline is reasonable. 

 

To put himself out there with "concern for structural damage" and "out for at least a month" based on video of Allen's pain reaction to  a trainer doing the milking test on the sideline is over the top.  Just having had a helmet smashed into it there is bound to be soft tissue bruising and maybe a 'stinger' that would also cause pain.  Chao isn't the one observing the critical information which would be the degree of joint laxity on physical exam, especially in a few days when the bruising goes down.

 

Chao is trading on his credentials as a former NFL team doctor to garner media attention in what, IMO, is an unethical manner for a physician to behave. 

 

You are welcome to disagree and call this viewpoint absurd.

[YoloinOhio]

2 minutes ago, One Buffalo said:

If the sprained elbow report it true then that is good news... much better than the UCL reports

 reports have been the same  ... it’s a sprain of the UCL 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, One Buffalo said:

If the sprained elbow report it true then that is good news... much better than the UCL reports

That's what a sprain is, a slight tear to a ligament.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, One Buffalo said:

If the sprained elbow report it true then that is good news... much better than the UCL reports

 

Erm, a sprain is damage to the ligaments in a joint in different degree, from stretching with no tearing to mild tearing that will heal without surgery, to complete tearing requiring surgical repair.  In the elbow, the ligament most commonly sprained is the UCL.

 

In other words, report of an elbow sprain IS a report of damage to the UCL.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm probably the most critical and I'll stand by it. 

 

For Chao to report that it's probably an UCL injury watching film of a trainer doing the milking test on the sideline is reasonable. 

 

To put himself out there with "concern for structural damage" and "out for at least a month" based on video of Allen's pain reaction to  a trainer doing the milking test on the sideline is over the top.  Just having had a helmet smashed into it there is bound to be soft tissue bruising and maybe a 'stinger' that would also cause pain.  Chao isn't the one observing the critical information which would be the degree of joint laxity on physical exam, especially in a few days when the bruising goes down.

 

Chao is trading on his credentials as a former NFL team doctor to garner media attention in what, IMO, is an unethical manner for a physician to behave. 

 

You are welcome to disagree and call this viewpoint absurd.

I was tempted to say unethical as well, but chose not to.  I see your point though.

[One Buffalo]

6 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 reports have been the same  ... it’s a sprain of the UCL 

 

Well I guess I am saying this report doesn't seem to indicate surgery and missing all of 2019.  We still need to hear final conclusion obviously.  Hoping for the best!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

a person with direct knowledge of Josh Allen's injury tells The Associated Press the Buffalo Bills rookie quarterback has been diagnosed with a sprained right elbow on his throwing arm and is not expected to play against Indianapolis on Sunday.

The person says Allen's playing status is considered week to week as opposed to being indefinite. The person spoke to The Associated Press on Tuesday on the condition of anonymity because the team has not revealed the nature of the injury.

 

If that's from Wawrow put out on AP then you can bank on it.  They don't think it's torn, pending MRI confirmation.  How badly it's actually sprained is gonna have to wait until later this week when the swelling goes down.

[YoloinOhio]

2 minutes ago, One Buffalo said:

 

Well I guess I am saying this report doesn't seem to indicate surgery and missing all of 2019.  We still need to hear final conclusion obviously.  Hoping for the best!

I know what you are saying ... and appreciate that as well. Just to clarify for anyone just jumping into this thread... that was never actually reported. It was only brought up on twitter as a possibility, however slim, due to lack of info on the severity and simply not knowing enough to rule it out. 

[LSHMEAB]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm probably the most critical and I'll stand by it. 

 

For Chao to report that it's probably an UCL injury watching film of a trainer doing the milking test on the sideline is reasonable. 

 

To put himself out there with "concern for structural damage" and "out for at least a month" based on video of Allen's pain reaction to  a trainer doing the milking test on the sideline is over the top.  Just having had a helmet smashed into it there is bound to be soft tissue bruising and maybe a 'stinger' that would also cause pain.  Chao isn't the one observing the critical information which would be the degree of joint laxity on physical exam, especially in a few days when the bruising goes down.

 

Chao is trading on his credentials as a former NFL team doctor to garner media attention in what, IMO, is an unethical manner for a physician to behave. 

 

You are welcome to disagree and call this viewpoint absurd.

I tend to agree that Chao is trading his credentials as a former NFL team doctor to garner media attention. I don't know that it's entirely unethical. He's making a somewhat educated, entirely speculative guess to the extent of JA's injury. 

 

The fact that he's a physician doesn't necessarily restrict him from using that experience in a morally ambiguous manner.

 

I've never held doctors in the highest esteem anyways, so I'm probably a bit biased.

[HappyDays]

54 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm not knocking you specifically, but some of the criticism of this doctor is a little absurd. He's not going to perform surgery via twitter. As an interested observer, I appreciate some insight on the possibilities.

 

Every injury has the possibility of being serious. Specifically bringing up the absolute worst case scenario, which is incredibly unlikely, is definitely click bait. You could do that for any sports injury before the official diagnosis comes out.

[HardyBoy]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

If he does have a tear and need Tommy Johns, yes.  But we don't yet know that, it's all speculation.

 

Tommy John surgery would be a year plus for a qb? I know it is for pitchers, but in baseball, field players have a much shorter rehab, like half a year iirc.

 

It's a different motion in football compared to baseball also.

[YoloinOhio]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Every injury has the possibility of being serious. Specifically bringing up the absolute worst case scenario, which is incredibly unlikely, is definitely click bait. You could do that for any sports injury before the official diagnosis comes out.

That’s really the only issue I had with Chao today - deliberately tweeting that out this morning to rile up the masses, especially those that just browse twitter and take it all as fact, and seemingly ignoring the report on the actual MRI. Sure, The team docs could be wrong. (He used to be one, btw). They are doing their due diligence to not take any chances by having Andrews look at it too. But he’s kind of assuming they are (why?) if he’s going to throw out a lightning rod tweet headline about Tommy John surgery being on the table. That’s all I meant. 

 

He really should have said that based on the initial report from doctors who saw the MRI and are examining and treating him, he’s probably put up to about a month, and if anything else comes out he can further speculate on it. And stopped there. Otherwise you get the fans and media jumping around saying he’s out until 2020 and we need to draft a Qb and fire everyone ... because they only see that one tweet.

Edited October 16, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

That’s really the only issue I had with Chao today - deliberately tweeting that out this morning to rile up the masses, especially those that just browse twitter and take it all as fact, and seemingly ignoring the report on the actual MRI. Sure, The team docs could be wrong. (He used to be one, btw). They are doing their due diligence to not take any chances by having Andrews look at it too. But he’s kind of assuming they are (why?) if he’s going to throw out a lightning rod tweet headline about Tommy John surgery being on the table. That’s all I meant. 

 

He really should have said that based on the initial report from doctors who saw the MRI and are examining and treating him, he’s probably put up to about a month, and if anything else comes out he can further speculate on it. 

Yep. Sensationalism at its best. One thing for media whores to do that, quite another for an MD sworn to the oath. Then again, everyone are media whores these days, it seems, including MDs.

Edited October 16, 2018 by K-9

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

Tommy John surgery would be a year plus for a qb? I know it is for pitchers, but in baseball, field players have a much shorter rehab, like half a year iirc.

 

It's a different motion in football compared to baseball also.

Yup, and discussed at some length on previous pages in this thread!

[The_Dude]

We’re gonna sit him in the bench to hide our *****up is basically what they’re saying. 

[Warcodered]

3 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

We’re gonna sit him in the bench to hide our *****up is basically what they’re saying. 

Clearly you have seen through the myriad of deceptions they've laid before us.?

[The_Dude]

14 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Clearly you have seen through the myriad of deceptions they've laid before us.?

 

Yeah? Well if I were running the show we’d have Mahomes and Watkins on the team and we’d be a lot better. So there’s that. 

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

18 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

We’re gonna sit him in the bench to hide our *****up is basically what they’re saying. 

How do you sit someone "In the Bench?"

[One Buffalo]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000975056/article/injuries-bills-dont-expect-elbow-surgery-for-josh-allen

 

Quote

The Buffalo Bills believe the sprained ulnar collateral ligament in Josh Allen's throwing elbow will not require Tommy John surgery, and the one-year recovery tab that accompanies that procedure, NFL Network's Mike Garafolo reported Tuesday.

 

Quote

Meanwhile, Allen is scheduled to see noted physician Dr. James Andrews for a second opinion on his elbow.

"The hope is that he will just confirm what the initial belief was, which is again, a little bit of rest, a little bit of rehab and then he's back on the field within a couple of weeks," Garafolo said.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by One Buffalo

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

7 minutes ago, Wyo_Bills Fan said:

How do you sit someone "In the Bench?"

the same way you "ride the range"?