Has anyone else noticed that the NFL has turned into the arena league?

[Coach Tuesday]

25 minutes ago, eball said:

 

No, I don't think that's the right way to look at this.  The League is making a concerted effort to change the way the game is coached and played, and if they're successful, we'll look back at the pre-2000 era as a different game.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

When you have WR's that can stretch the field and catch the football your QB can pass for those crazy numbers.

[delectrolux]

41 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

No, I don't think that's the right way to look at this.  The League is making a concerted effort to change the way the game is coached and played, and if they're successful, we'll look back at the pre-2000 era as a different game.

 

Except that is the point. The game changes. New fans will love it. Old fans will pine for the game they grew up with. I’m sure there were corner bars filled with guys complaining when the forward pass was introduced 1906...

[Chuck Wagon]

Then stop watching.

 

I thought the last two primetime games have been very entertaining.  Only place you are going to see I formation with a fullback is on NFL Films.  It's got more to do with scheme than making the rules harsher.

[ChanticleerBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

Through 3 weeks (plus last night), the average points scored per team/per game is 22.

 

For all of 2017 (regular season), the average points scored per team/per game was 23.

 

I think we saw two very good QBs on display last night.  I don't know what the statistics for average yards of offense/team are - but my guess is that teams are definitely moving the ball more (as NFL defenses continue to be castrated).

 

The difference with teams with good QBs is more touchdowns and less FGs/turnovers in the red zone - hence the higher score last night.

 

There was also some ****ty officiating last night (and throughout the league) that contributed to keeping drives alive.

Saw a stat last night that there was 1 five TD passing game last year, and there has already been 3 this year just gstarting week four. 

[SoCal Deek]

I’m not sure what all of this chatter is about. Have you already forgotten that less than ONE WEEK ago those same Vikings didn’t even have 30 yards of total offense against the Bills...inside their own ‘dome’ stadium?  Things change week to week but one thing that’s been pretty constant is that Thursday Night Football is not a decent measure of ANYTHING!  Teams simply don’t have the proper time to prepare.

[Soda Popinski]

The league wants exactly what we saw last night.  38-31 games.  They have manipulated the rules to get what they want.  

[CommonCents]

It’s pinball, anyone trying to argue that the game hasn’t changed drastically is in denial. The average QB rating for week two was 105, that’s for the entire league. That’s higher than Rodgers career passer rating.

 

Kids watching the games now will never know what the NFL once was. I hope a nasty defense emerges and creates a new dynasty. 

 

 

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

The league wants exactly what we saw last night.  38-31 games.  They have manipulated the rules to get what they want.  

 

 I agree.  But I also think there are more "very good" QBs in the league today that there has been in many years.

[CommonCents]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

 I agree.  But I also think there are more "very good" QBs in the league today that there has been in many years.

Or the NFL made playing QB easier oops I mean safer. It won’t be long until fans get bored with the big stat lines. 

[Soda Popinski]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

 I agree.  But I also think there are more "very good" QBs in the league today that there has been in many years.

I would agree, also the coordinators and coaches are changing the way they coach to use those rule changes to their advantage as much as possible. 

 

But definitely better QBs especially the young ones.    The old guard is getting ready to pass the torch, in 3 years Rivers/Roethlisburger/Brady/Brees/Manning will all be retired.   Then you've got Rodgers/Stafford as the senior guys who walso won't play forever.  I'm just glad we have one of the young up and coming QBs.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

What is even the point of running the football anymore?  Seriously?  You no longer need to establish the run to keep defenses honest.  Every decent QB in the league (and at this point, due in part to the rules making it easier to play QB, who doesn't have a decent QB?) averages 7-8 YPA.  So really, why run?  To average 4 YPC and create a more manageable third down?  All the good teams just pass every play at this point and are taking what they want.  It used to be, if a QB had 450 yards and 4 TD's it was because his team was down the whole game and, usually, lost.  Now 450 yards and 4 TD's is good for the third highest fantasy total among QB's in a given week.  This is what the NFL has wanted for years and now they've got it.  I grew up watching great running backs.  I love 21-17 football games where every yard is hard-earned.  I think this sucks.

 

I feel certain the Vikes agree with you "what is the point?"  They didn't seem to have one when they tried. 

 

I also feel certain the Vikes would have liked the Rams to get your memo.  While you were typing this, Gurley was gashing them for 7-8 yds every time he touched the ball.

He finished with ~5 ypc after being stuffed a few times for a mere 2 or 3

[eball]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

No, I don't think that's the right way to look at this.  The League is making a concerted effort to change the way the game is coached and played, and if they're successful, we'll look back at the pre-2000 era as a different game.

 

Completely disagree.  Every year, it seems, somebody is bitching and moaning about how the league has done "this" or "that" to change the game.  And yet we all watch and we all enjoy.  It's comical.  Last night's game was incredibly entertaining.

[ChanticleerBillsFan]

Zimmer/Edwards kept putting Barr in one on one situations with receivers and he got toasted for three long TDs was part of the scoring problem last night too. 

[hondo in seattle]

10 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

What is even the point of running the football anymore?  Seriously?  You no longer need to establish the run to keep defenses honest.  Every decent QB in the league (and at this point, due in part to the rules making it easier to play QB, who doesn't have a decent QB?) averages 7-8 YPA.  So really, why run?  To average 4 YPC and create a more manageable third down?  All the good teams just pass every play at this point and are taking what they want.  It used to be, if a QB had 450 yards and 4 TD's it was because his team was down the whole game and, usually, lost.  Now 450 yards and 4 TD's is good for the third highest fantasy total among QB's in a given week.  This is what the NFL has wanted for years and now they've got it.  I grew up watching great running backs.  I love 21-17 football games where every yard is hard-earned.  I think this sucks.

 

I get everything your saying and share some of the same concerns.

 

So why run?  Well, if I was an OC with a mediocre-QB but a good RB and OL, I would use the weapons I had. 

 

While offenses continue to emphasize the pass, defenses have been evolving more and more to stop the passing game.  These days LBs are smaller and faster than they used to be.  Nickel is now the base NFL defense.  Many of today's DEs are guys who can rush the QB but are soft against the run.  Etc.  There could be an opportunity to take advantage of the trend in defenses by developing a strong power running game.  

 

Sun Tzu said, "To unfailingly take what you attack, attack where is no defense."   Run D is the weaker D.  Attack it and win.  

[Gugny]

46 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Or the NFL made playing QB easier oops I mean safer. It won’t be long until fans get bored with the big stat lines. 

 

I think it's both.  And - similarly to baseball - the goal is to attract more "casual" fans.

 

Diehard baseball fans appreciate a nice pitchers' duel.  MLB has (for years) been turning it into a HR league.  Because casual fans like HRs.

 

Casual NFL fans like lots of scoring.  Keeping the starting QBs safe does make excellent business sense.  Most teams' backup QBs suck, which usually makes for very crappy football.

[BillsVet]

I doubt the NFL would do ever anything to hinder the passing game.  They have to love these shoot-outs just like MLB loves the HR.  Or the NBA which is predominantly dunks and 3 pointers. It's what gets fans' attention.

 

At some point, I have to wonder if some HC and GM would see the wisdom in putting together a team that isn't predicated on throwing the ball, but is good enough doing that. Defenses are playing more 6 guys in the box and 5 DB sets, so it would make sense that someone eventually builds an offense which can punish those smaller LBs and DBs who are on the field to play the pass.  Belicheck seemed to use LeGarrette Blount like this a few years ago.  

 

[metzelaars_lives]

3 hours ago, eball said:

Dude.  I’m 39.

[4_kidd_4]

Definitely some arena league uniforms in the NFL.

 

Lookin in your general direction Tampa Bay....

[metzelaars_lives]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I feel certain the Vikes agree with you "what is the point?"  They didn't seem to have one when they tried. 

 

I also feel certain the Vikes would have liked the Rams to get your memo.  While you were typing this, Gurley was gashing them for 7-8 yds every time he touched the ball.

He finished with ~5 ypc after being stuffed a few times for a mere 2 or 3

Goff was gashing them for more than that.  My point is that whether Gurley was running effectively or not, they didn’t really need him to.  Everyone in the stadium can know that a guy is passing every play now and they can be just as effective, regardless of whether they have established a running game.  You see it all the time.

[Bangarang]

10 hours ago, billspro said:

At least LA throws a lot of intermediate passes. New England has been the most boring team to watch for years with their unstoppable 5 yard passes.

 

I would gladly settle with boring if it meant years of division titles and Super Bowl victories. That’s just me though.

[sleeby]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

I doubt the NFL would do ever anything to hinder the passing game.  They have to love these shoot-outs just like MLB loves the HR.  Or the NBA which is predominantly dunks and 3 pointers. It's what gets fans' attention.

 

At some point, I have to wonder if some HC and GM would see the wisdom in putting together a team that isn't predicated on throwing the ball, but is good enough doing that. Defenses are playing more 6 guys in the box and 5 DB sets, so it would make sense that someone eventually builds an offense which can punish those smaller LBs and DBs who are on the field to play the pass.  Belicheck seemed to use LeGarrette Blount like this a few years ago.  

 

 

His initials are RR (as are those of his equally idiotic brother); please do not say the name - ever.

[co_springs_billsfan]

We're building a bully

 

 

edit: I apologize if this caused anyone to throw up

Edited September 28, 2018 by co_springs_billsfan

[sleeby]

A bit curious that this thread is in a bills forum - we have not had a strong passing game in recent years and had a top RB and running QB.  

 

The stats above do show the opening comment to be wrong or greatly exaggerated - not discounting the poster - yet most of us do see this trend. 

 

Maybe it has to do with the games being widely televised are more often top passing teams?  Or when two medicore teams play it's regional coverage only?  And maybe newer products such as red zone coverage which is not showing the 4 yard run that was not for 6 points are also causing this perception?

 

Anyhow, passing is the future for sure as mentioned already - most fans like it.  QB and WR protections are also only going to increase, not only for sales but also for the brain damage law suits from former players.  

 

Edit - and the DH is never going away in MLB.  Not a chance.

Edited September 28, 2018 by sleeby

[Jrb1979]

It seems like the ones that hate the way the game is now are the fans who lived through the Rockpile days. 

 

The way the game is played now it makes me question why the Bills have seemed to hire defensive minded coaches. Its not a blue collar game anymore. For some reason a lot of Bills fans don't want a team that throws the ball up and down the field. 

[BillsFan130]

I don't understand why the NFL wants these crazy high scoring games with lots of flags.

 

My guess is to cater to the younger generation and fantasy football? Amongst other reasons for sure.

 

The odd game where it is 38-31 is really cool, but now it seems like every week there are a couple games with those scores.

 

I remember when a field goal actually used to be important..

 

Now it seems like if you get a field goal, it is just an average drive.

[Cash]

10 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I agree 100%.  I'm saying that is changing right now as we speak.  I actually just looked up on football reference and while everything is of course trending toward more pass attempts, more passing yards, less rushing attempts, yards, etc., the numbers are not as staggeringly different as I thought they might be, or at least how it feels.  Perhaps things will change when it gets colder/closer to playoff time but right now it's seriously like, what is the point of running the ball ever?  But FWIW, the Super Bowl last year was another one of these arena league games like tonight.

 

I think your reaction is a little bit recency bias, especially given the nature of last night's game.  Yeah, the numbers have slowly been trending towards passing basically forever, but it's a gradual change.  I'll put the 1992 Bills-49ers game with no punts up against any shootout from the last few years.  Those kinds of games are definitely more common now, but it's not like they never happened back in the day.

 

A lot of it has always been hyper-conservative coaching.  I also took a look at pro football reference, to compare net yards/pass (penalizes sacks) vs. yards/run over the years.  I don't have all day, so I just picked a few years here and there.  I also put PFR's adjusted net yards/attempt (ANY/A) in parentheses.  This accounts for sacks and interceptions, so it's a more fair comparison to account for the higher risk of a turnover when passing.

 

2017: 4.1 rush, 6.1 pass (5.9 adjusted)

2012: 4.3 rush, 6.2 pass (5.9)

2007: 4.1 rush, 6.0 pass (5.5)

2002: 4.2 rush, 5.9 pass (5.3)

1997: 4.0 rush, 5.7 pass (5.2)

1992: 4.0 rush, 5.8 pass (4.9)

1982: 3.8 rush, 5.8 pass (4.8)

1972: 4.1 rush, 5.7 pass (4.3)

 

The pass efficiency has gone up while running has stayed roughly flat, but you have to go back to the 70s to find a time when they were about equally efficient.  Even in 1982 (before Kelly/Marino/Elway came in), it was a full yard per play better to pass than run!  Teams should've been passing like 60% of the time back then instead of 50%.  

 

Unfortunately for you, the pass/run ratio is likely to only go up as more coaches realize that you get better overall results that way.  If there's any consolation, I can point to the CFL.  There you only have 3 downs instead of 4 (still 10 yards to gain), and receivers are allowed to be moving forward at the snap, so it's always been extremely pass-heavy.  But teams still run, and not just at the goal line.  Granted, it's like 20% of the time, but the run game is still a real part of the game.

[sleeby]

If I had a team i would train my eligable receivers and QBs to become experts at drawing the pass interference flags against their defenders.  Everything from tricks which cause the other team to foul or how to position yourself to likely be fouled else appear to have fouled to smack talking the secondary all day.  Then throw deep a lot - maybe even barely uncatchable passes that cannot be intercepted in bounds.  Cheap - but make the rules work for you.  The PI penalty is far too powerful to not exploit. 

 

Grab an extra 100 yards a game just from magic tricks.  Ha.

Edited September 28, 2018 by sleeby

[blacklabel]

It's just the way the league wants things to be. All the rules instated to protect the QBs and give the defense a disadvantage is so the "stars of the game" can go out there and sling it for 400+ yards and 4 TDs every week.

 

But besides that, guys like McVay and Andy Reid are extremely smart schemers. And they're merging a lot of college concepts with pro concepts to make things easier for their young QBs. 

 

Goff was on fire last night but I'm not sure I've ever seen so many wide open targets in a game. Play after play guys were 2-3 steps ahead of the coverage and open on pretty much every area of the field. 

 

I gotta think at least part of that is because the Vikings defense is a touch overrated. The Bills don't have a fraction of the playmakers the Rams do and put up 27 points in two and a half quarters. 

 

I had a thought last night that's gonna sound all kinds of conspiracy theory-ish, which isn't really what I'm aiming for, I'm not one to say, "It's all rigged! It's all fixed!" I don't think that but sometimes I see things that make me wonder if things are, let's say, "directed' in a certain way. What better way to drum up interest in a town that really doesn't give too much of a crap about pro football (Los Angeles) than by loading up their new team with monster playermakers and a young, innovative coach. What better way to maintain interest in football in a post-9/11 world than by having a team named the Patriots be the dynasty of the 2000s and again in the 2010s? Again, not trying to say "conspiracy!" I just wonder if things happen to "fall into place" real conveniently sometimes.

[Chuck Wagon]

"I can't understand what's happening to the NFL.  Must be all the pansy liberal millennials needing to see points point points to be entertained.  All I just want to see is a full back slam into a linebacker, the running back get 3 yards and then punts.  Remember punts?  Used to be a game changer, a good punt down inside the 5.  Now I see this Rams coach line up for 4th down late in the game or the Eagles go for 4th down in the Super Bowl and I DO NOT KNOW WHATS HAPPENING!!  Don't give me this mularky about spread offenses, that's not my NFL.  If a receiver goes over the middle he needs to go off on a stretcher, that's the NFL I love.  They've ruined my game.  Now excuse me, but I'm going to flip over to NASCAR to see if there are any good car wrecks."

Edited September 28, 2018 by Chuck Wagon

[metzelaars_lives]

9 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

"I can't understand what's happening to the NFL.  Must be all the pansy liberal millennials needing to see points point points to be entertained.  All I just want to see is a full back slam into a linebacker, the running back get 3 yards and then punts.  Remember punts?  Used to be a game changer, a good punt down inside the 5.  Now I see this Rams coach line up for 4th down late in the game or the Eagles go for 4th down in the Super Bowl and I DO NOT KNOW WHATS HAPPENING!!  Don't give me this mularky about spread offenses, that's not my NFL.  If a receiver goes over the middle he needs to go off on a stretcher, that's the NFL I love.  They've ruined my game.  Now excuse me, but I'm going to flip over to NASCAR to see if there are any good car wrecks."

Dude I am the most liberal person on this entire website.  Nice attempt at satire though.

[metzelaars_lives]

13 hours ago, Gugny said:

Through 3 weeks (plus last night), the average points scored per team/per game is 22.

 

For all of 2017 (regular season), the average points scored per team/per game was 23.

 

I think we saw two very good QBs on display last night.  I don't know what the statistics for average yards of offense/team are - but my guess is that teams are definitely moving the ball more (as NFL defenses continue to be castrated).

 

The difference with teams with good QBs is more touchdowns and less FGs/turnovers in the red zone - hence the higher score last night.

 

There was also some ****ty officiating last night (and throughout the league) that contributed to keeping drives alive.

This is not accurate.  Although again, I am the first to concede that the numbers do not look as staggeringly different as the game feels to me.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/NFL/scoring.htm

Edited September 29, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[Protocal69]

No worries bro. Just wait until the temp drops. All these noddle arm QBs will come back to reality. 

 

Think Ryan Fitzpatrick

[metzelaars_lives]

4 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said:

Then stop watching.

 

I thought the last two primetime games have been very entertaining.  Only place you are going to see I formation with a fullback is on NFL Films.  It's got more to do with scheme than making the rules harsher.

?  No.  I love baseball.  I don't like guys who hit 40 HR's and strike out 200 times and the fact that strikeouts across the board are inflated but I still love baseball.  So when the New Jersey Devils ruined hockey with the trap (essentially doing the reverse of what's happening in the NFL), I'm assuming you stopped watching?  Not sure why we can't have a friendly conversation about how the game we all love has so blatantly changed.

Edited September 28, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Goff was gashing them for more than that.  My point is that whether Gurley was running effectively or not, they didn’t really need him to.  Everyone in the stadium can know that a guy is passing every play now and they can be just as effective, regardless of whether they have established a running game.  You see it all the time.

 

*shrug* I don't happen to believe that's quite true. 

 

Like McDermott, I need to look at the film (heh) but I think if the Vikes weren't trying desperately to contain Gurley, Goff wouldn't have been able to gash them so badly.  I think what the Vikes were doing at least initially was something kind of similar to what we did against the Ravens and got gashed for - scheme allowed the linebackers to play up, leaving space between the DB and the line that Goff systematically exploited. 

 

Even so if it weren't for a ticky-tack defensive hold, the Vikes would have forced a punt on their first drive.

 

What I don't like is the way the refs are influencing the outcome of games so much, even though our Bills have benefited.

[Chuck Wagon]

59 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

?  No.  I love baseball.  I don't like guys who hit 40 HR's and strike out 200 times and the fact that strikeouts across the board are inflated but I still love baseball.  So when the New Jersey Devils ruined hockey with the trap (essentially doing the reverse of what's happening in the NFL), I'm assuming you stopped watching?  Not sure why we can't have a friendly conversation about how the game we all love has so blatantly changed.

 

Largely, I simply don't agree that it's been rules changes that's resulted in the offense explosion. I'm not going to pretend they've hurt it, they've definitely helped. IMO it' s more scheme that's flown up from college football. Everyone's favorite acronym, the RPO, NFL offenses are running spread concepts, putting guys in space and it's putting insane stress on defenses.  We've seen glimpses in the past, our K-Gun, "the Greatest Show on Turf", the 2007 Pats.  But college football has been like this for several years now and it's really hitting the NFL in full stride.  

 

Simply put, it's more efficient football than what some here are longing for in the "good old days".  

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[KW95 - JA17]

Ya, those 1 yard running plays in a pile of 300 pound men are exciting....

 

 

[That's No Moon]

17 hours ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I am like half gay for Josh Allen.

So...just the tip then?

[metzelaars_lives]

7 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

Largely, I simply don't agree that it's been rules changes that's resulted in the offense explosion. I'm not going to pretend they've hurt it, they've definitely helped. IMO it' s more scheme that's flown up from college football. Everyone's favorite acronym, the RPO, NFL offenses are running spread concepts, putting guys in space and it's putting insane stress on defenses.  We've seen glimpses in the past, our K-Gun, "the Greatest Show on Turf", the 2007 Pats.  But college football has been like this for several years now and it's really hitting the NFL in full stride.  

 

Simply put, it's more efficient football than what some here are longing for in the "good old days".  

Yes, I agree that passing every play is more efficient than running.  That was kinda like the point of my post.  And as other people have pointed out, that’s probably always been the case.  But QB’s being way better now, coupled with rule changes designed to bolster offense, has changed the way the game looks and I don’t like it as much.  That doesn’t make me a NASCAR fan?