O Line Troubles Start With It's Coach !!

[kota]

The strength the Oline the last few years was from Center to the left side.  With the sudden departures of Wood, and Incognito the Bills are now stuck filling those positions with backups.  The Bills gave away alot of draft capital to get Edmunds and Allen which could have been used on the line.  It's always pick your poison with this stuff.

 

The OLine will shake out and is probably on the list next year for upgrades with the 100 million in cap space we will have.  

[Fadingpain]

How do we know the blame falls on Castillo?

 

IN theory he should be more aware of what's going on with the OL than anyone on the staff.

How do we know that he hasn't been harping on the need for upgrades but getting vetoed by Beane b/c it's not the right time or he can't afford to divert resources in that area or God knows what?

How the hell does any fan, exactly, throw this on a coach?

You have no idea---none---what is going on behind closed doors.

 

 

[Gigs]

They have no talent on that line, and that has more to do with the success of the line. Incognito and Wood were pro-bowlers, and I don’t think we have half the talent we did last year. 

 

Or it could just be the coaching...

[HuSeYiN_NYC]

Ducasse makes Ed Wang look like a HOF'er...

[Soda Popinski]

My problem with Castillo is he brought Vlad.  We lost good players and he brought us worse players.   Had he brought over a decent guard last year and benched Miller I'd have been ok with it, but MIller was benched for Vlad and this year he's been terrible.  Both have been pretty bad.   Now if they didn't have faith in Miller as a starter last year why do they this year?   They never looked to upgrade the position knowing going in that Wood was gone and then Incognito followed shortly after.   

 

They weren't blindsided with losing both guys last week, this was at the beginning of the offseason, plenty of time to fix it. Now Wyatt Teller is outplaying both Vlad and Miller and he's stuck on the 2nd team, and for that i DO blame Castillo he's holding on to guys he knows vs playing the best 5 and that is Bull crap.  

[RevWarRifleman]

20 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

OLine troubles start with replacing 2 pro bowl caliber players with two backup caliber players. Not much Beane could do this off season tho to address that with all the other issues needing to be fixed so he did what he could. 

 

This off season was all about getting the QB they wanted

It all starts in the trenches. I agree about the QB part. But there were plenty of picks after round 1, or round 2, to get guys to help protect better that round 1 QB.

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, RevWarRifleman said:

It all starts in the trenches. I agree about the QB part. But there were plenty of picks after round 1, or round 2, to get guys to help protect better that round 1 QB.

 

Like Round 5?

[Mango]

27 minutes ago, kota said:

The strength the Oline the last few years was from Center to the left side.  With the sudden departures of Wood, and Incognito the Bills are now stuck filling those positions with backups.  The Bills gave away alot of draft capital to get Edmunds and Allen which could have been used on the line.  It's always pick your poison with this stuff.

 

The OLine will shake out and is probably on the list next year for upgrades with the 100 million in cap space we will have.  

 

If the strength of the OL the past few years has been LT, LG, and C, and we drafted a rookie QB, and have two very inexperienced vets as QB's, why wasn't the right side of the line addressed/upgraded?  Regardless of the left side of the line, they knew the position they were going to be at with the QB, and the right side remained exactly the same. It is kind BS to pin this on Incognito and Wood given the lack of other meaningful moves on the OL. 

[RevWarRifleman]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Like Round 5?

Well, the caliber of what we got now looks like round 5.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

The problem is talent, not Castillo. Castillo coached the Eagles' offensive line from 1998-2010, and they finished in the top 12 in points in 9 of those seasons and the top 11 in yards in 7 of those seasons.  Using Football Outsiders' DVOA metric, from 2001-10, the Eagles' offense finished in the top 12 nine out of ten years and the top 10 seven out of ten years. 

 

....shouldn't he be responsible for teaching and coaching up perceived talent he has to work with?.....secondly, if everything is the "scheme's fault", shouldn't he be adamant about the scheme being an attempt to fit round peg in square hole?....it ain't workin'........I'm pretty sure Daboll there would not be a sole scheme "cast in stone", but rather "scheme specific", tailored to the opposition's defensive tendencies....

[CardinalScotts]

I always thought he sucked too plays favorites etc.....but everyone who has played for him says he's a great coach so I don't know what to say. Even retired guys that could say what ever that wanted to.

 

I know this- he's not throwing a single block on the field at some point it falls on the players

[Peter]

We had an excellent OL coach with a great record of success.  His name was Aaron Kromer.  He was under contract and ours if we wanted him.

 

Instead, McCoach outsmarted himself. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 minutes ago, Peter said:

We had an excellent OL coach with a great record of success.  His name was Aaron Kromer.  He was under contract and ours if we wanted him.

 

Instead, McCoach outsmarted himself. 

 

...interestingly, Mike Tice retired because he said, "players no longer want to be coached"....

[mjt328]

4 hours ago, T master said:

Sorry i don't usually like to be a hater & still don't think i am being a "hater" per say but Juan Castillo has never really done any thing for me or relevant in the NFL ! Oh he did get SB ring with the Ravens because they brought him on as a irrelevant assistants assistant near the end of the year they won the SB that's the reason why he has a SB ring but other than that & that he has a bunch of experience at coaching he really hasn't proven he's a winning coach at his chosen trade !

 

I never did like the choice of him by McD because i remember the debacle in Philly with Andy Reid when he got fired from there because of changing him from one coaching position to another . Here's some old reading material about all that & notice who Castillo took over in place of !! 

 

https://philly.sbnation.com/2012/10/17/3517294/revisiting-the-juan-castillo-hiring 

 

I think he is a good person kind of like the Tyrod thing ! A great person, great work ethic, good leader, but when it comes to results it just doesn't come to be & if last years tape & this years 2 preseason games, the one AJ started & then this one with Allen starting shows anything then it could be time to move on already !

 

Sure i know you all will say what every one else is saying about the loss of Wood & Incognito that the O line is in flux but a good coach can at the very least see the strengths of the players he has & devise something that looks better than what was seen on the field for the start of the last 2 preseason games ! 

 

Also with the Rookie talent they have gotten in the draft & the fact that no one on the team can see that Ducasse & Mills are average at best & that Castillo was more than likely one that wants to keep Ducasse in the line up as a starter sends a huge red flag to me ! Yes i am only a fan but I've  seen Ducasse & read other so called experts say he is past his prime & it shows ! 

 

Mills has been talked about as being such for 2 yrs & he's still a starter so if he can't see that weakness how can things get any better ?

 

It all starts up front & on both sides of the ball & we saw the difference in the Bills D when it went from Shwartz to Rex & when they changed & brought Kromer in to be the O line coach, so coaching is HUGE !! 

 

 IMHO this guy (Castillo) ain't getting it done & I hope McBean sees it sooner rather than later !! If not it could be a short honeymoon !!

 

At this point, I think our O-Line troubles start with a lack of talent.

Our best 3 linemen from the last several years (Eric Wood, Ritchie Incognito and Cordy Glenn) were all lost within a single offseason. 

 

Only Glenn has been adequately replaced, and Dion Dawkins was injured/did not play yesterday.

Vlad Ducasse and John Miller both struggled horribly at Right Guard last season.  This year, both are unquestioned starters. 

Jordan Mills has been a weak spot for years.  This year, he's the most experienced starter.

Neither Ryan Groy or Russell Bodine have been able to snatch the starting job, which is always a bad sign.

 

Maybe Castillo will prove to be a poor coach as well, but right now he's working with crap.

 

 

[T master]

4 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

While Castillo should share lots of the blame, at the end of the day the Bills really don't have much talent on their o line

 

Brady hasn't always had much talent at WR but he's the GOAT and then there's Belichek need i say more ? 

[T master]

56 minutes ago, Peter said:

We had an excellent OL coach with a great record of success.  His name was Aaron Kromer.  He was under contract and ours if we wanted him.

 

Instead, McCoach outsmarted himself. 

 

 I agree 150%  but L.A. is awfully glad & look at what their offense has came from & went to just since he's came there .

 

But according to others replying to this post coaching has nothing to do with it it's all talent based . Okay Den !! 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

We had an excellent OL coach with a great record of success.  His name was Aaron Kromer.  He was under contract and ours if we wanted him.

 

Instead, McCoach outsmarted himself. 

 

 

Shiite. I forgot about Kromer. That’s kind of ruined my day now. Thanks for the reminder...

[BillsFan130]

3 hours ago, T master said:

 

Brady hasn't always had much talent at WR but he's the GOAT and then there's Belichek need i say more ? 

What? Lol. How does that have anything to do with what I said about the Bills o line and o line coach?

[26CornerBlitz]

Those pesky apostrophes are even more trouble.

[Happy]

4 hours ago, Peter said:

We had an excellent OL coach with a great record of success.  His name was Aaron Kromer.  He was under contract and ours if we wanted him.

 

Instead, McCoach outsmarted himself. 

 

I thought Aaron Kromer did not want to be in Buffalo, but wanted to follow Anthony Lynn out to LA.  So McD let him go.  Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it is what I thought I remember happening.

[NewEraBills]

Talent is an issue for sure.  But to me, it's more than that.  Remember that time we beat Baltimore 23-20.  We picked off Flacco five times and was constantly in his face?  Do you guys remember that?  Well that OL had Pro Bowl players on it.  The Ravens couldn't run or pass that day.  The struggled that entire season.

 

That line consisted of Mount McKinney, Kelechi Osemele, Gino Gradkowski, Marshall Yanda, Michael Oher.  McKinney was replaced early in the season by Eugene Monroe through a trade.  Flacco was sacked 48 times that season, second only to Tannehill who was sacked the most.  Guess who was the coach of that OL?  The Ravens bring Juan Castillo in fresh off of their SB victory and Castillo made these guys look bad.  Their OL penalty rate was the highest it ever was, guys missed blocks like crazy.  The Ravens rushing attack went into the cellar.  

 

Kubiak and Dennison came in and corrected the ship in one season.  When they left the OL went straight back to hell.  So yeah, it's talent on the one hand, but Juan's lack of success in Baltimore gives me a lot of concern and with the way our OL was last year even with Cogs and Wood, it still had some major issues and to me those issues have everything to do with the OL coach.

[NoSaint]

8 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

While Castillo should share lots of the blame, at the end of the day the Bills really don't have much talent on their o line

 

I do sometimes hold the coach accountable for not being able to stump for the players he needs. 

[3rdand12]

9 hours ago, pinmike13 said:

Being pushed backwards 10 yards into your QB every snap to me is lack of talent or brute strength

 

that was just the center.

5 hours ago, Peter said:

We had an excellent OL coach with a great record of success.  His name was Aaron Kromer.  He was under contract and ours if we wanted him.

 

Instead, McCoach outsmarted himself. 

i might agree.

but Kromer was a bit of a loose cannon it seemed.........

3 hours ago, Mango said:

 

 

Shiite. I forgot about Kromer. That’s kind of ruined my day now. Thanks for the reminder...

Dennison.  

hurts a little doesn't it.

 like you want to punch someone in the face.

 for ruining what Kromer had going.

58 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Those pesky apostrophes are even more trouble.

punctuation . dearth of mankind

41 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I thought Aaron Kromer did not want to be in Buffalo, but wanted to follow Anthony Lynn out to LA.  So McD let him go.  Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it is what I thought I remember happening.

neither did I

 heck i wanted to keep Lynn !

22 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

I do sometimes hold the coach accountable for not being able to stump for the players he needs. 

Unless he does not have enough wherewithal to define those types of players for success

29 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

Talent is an issue for sure.  But to me, it's more than that.  Remember that time we beat Baltimore 23-20.  We picked off Flacco five times and was constantly in his face?  Do you guys remember that?  Well that OL had Pro Bowl players on it.  The Ravens couldn't run or pass that day.  The struggled that entire season.

 

That line consisted of Mount McKinney, Kelechi Osemele, Gino Gradkowski, Marshall Yanda, Michael Oher.  McKinney was replaced early in the season by Eugene Monroe through a trade.  Flacco was sacked 48 times that season, second only to Tannehill who was sacked the most.  Guess who was the coach of that OL?  The Ravens bring Juan Castillo in fresh off of their SB victory and Castillo made these guys look bad.  Their OL penalty rate was the highest it ever was, guys missed blocks like crazy.  The Ravens rushing attack went into the cellar.  

 

Kubiak and Dennison came in and corrected the ship in one season.  When they left the OL went straight back to hell.  So yeah, it's talent on the one hand, but Juan's lack of success in Baltimore gives me a lot of concern and with the way our OL was last year even with Cogs and Wood, it still had some major issues and to me those issues have everything to do with the OL coach.

okay i am going to cry now.

 thanks i guess.

 gnight ....

[HuSeYiN_NYC]

Ducasse makes the tackling dummies in practice look like they should get some playing time...

[billsfan89]

The O-line isn't talented, although the coach doesn't seem to be helping there is only so much a coach can do to mask bad talent. 

[BuffaloRush]

It’s certainly a compelling argument, but then again it gets into the whole chicken vs egg theory.  Is it coaching or is it the players?  Is Castillo not getting the most out of his players?  Or is the talent that he’s coaching just not very good?

 

IMO it’s tough to say.  While you could say the line wasn’t great last year, the Bills had one of the top rushing attacks in the NFL.  Yes his blocking scheme didn’t seem like it fit the talent, he did make adjustments which appeared to make a positive difference.   They seemed to be getting average play out of journeymen like Jordan Mills and Vlad.  

 

This year, the Bills line has 1 solid starter in Dion Dawkins.  The rest of the starters probably would be depth on half of the NFL teams, if not most.  

 

So I’m not defending Castillo - he very well could be a problem.  He hasn’t coached up the talent given to him.  But then again his talent hasn’t been great.

[Happy]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRush said:

It’s certainly a compelling argument, but then again it gets into the whole chicken vs egg theory.  Is it coaching or is it the players?  Is Castillo not getting the most out of his players?  Or is the talent that he’s coaching just not very good?

 

IMO it’s tough to say.  While you could say the line wasn’t great last year, the Bills had one of the top rushing attacks in the NFL.  Yes his blocking scheme didn’t seem like it fit the talent, he did make adjustments which appeared to make a positive difference.   They seemed to be getting average play out of journeymen like Jordan Mills and Vlad.  

 

This year, the Bills line has 1 solid starter in Dion Dawkins.  The rest of the starters probably would be depth on half of the NFL teams, if not most.  

 

So I’m not defending Castillo - he very well could be a problem.  He hasn’t coached up the talent given to him.  But then again his talent hasn’t been great.

 

We were saying this about Castillo last year.  It seemed to be written off as a Dennison problem since he was fired, though some of it probably is attributable to him.  Shady didn't score a rushing TD until what, week 6 last year?  Funny how the line is having problems again this year and Castillo is still around as the common denominator.  But yeah, the loss of Eric Wood and Richie is hurting.

[Bing Bong]

I still thought we had that chair throwing dude that ran a great line.

[Jauronimo]

11 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

This. All of the sudden Henderson is a latter day Tony Munoz?

 

COME ON.

 

Henderson was not a loss at all. He was rarely in the lineup on Sundays.  Hope he gets healthy and gets a shot with Houston.

 

Cog and Wood, however, might be missed this year.   

[ALF]

Now they have to decide which 5 ,  OL men it will be and let them get in sync.  Experimentation time is over.

 

Until the OL is ready the QB has time for 1 read and throw.   5 sacks in 1st half will get a QB injured sooner or later.

 

Losing Richie is a big difference. I even think he made Groy look ok at C. Getting Dawkins back will also help.

[oldmanfan]

I don't think Castillo is very good.  But when you get physically dominated by the guy across from you, get shoved straight back into the QB, that's not coaching.  That's just either lack of physical ability or desire.

[Figster]

22 hours ago, Woodman19 said:

Think this is clearly a case of having a lack of talent, not coaching.  No coach in the world could make this group look good.

Bills new OC could have helped the situation in my humble opinion.

 

Its almost like J A was hung out to dry to prove a point and If so, who called the shots? McD?

 

why wasn't Allens run for a 1st down challenged?

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 minutes ago, Figster said:

Bills new OC could have helped the situation in my humble opinion.

 

Its almost like J A was hung out to dry to prove a point and If so, who called the shots? McD?

 

why wasn't Allens run for a 1st down challenged?

 

 

 

...good point 'Fig.......what's a red flag in pre-season anyway?.....

[Figster]

26 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...good point 'Fig.......what's a red flag in pre-season anyway?.....

Especially when your team needed a spark,

 

whats up with that AFL...

[Spiderweb]

On 8/27/2018 at 12:21 PM, SoTier said:

 

This.  I'm not a Castillo fan, but let's get a couple of things straight here. 

1. Castillo didn't decide on the zone blocking scheme the Bills changed to in 2017 and have kept in 2018.  That was Dennison and Daboll.
2. Castillo didn't decide to bring in Ducasse or Newhouse or Bodine.  He didn't let Seantrell Henderson walk in FA or trade away Cordy Glenn.  He didn't ignore OL in the draft until very late in the fifth round, either.  Those "sins" all sit squarely on McDermott and Beane.

IOW, Castillo is dealing with the hand he's been dealt by those higher up the Bills food chain than assistant coach.

Yes .. he's dealing with the hand dealt to him, albeit quite poorly however.

 

[SoTier]

42 minutes ago, Spiderweb said:

Yes .. he's dealing with the hand dealt to him, albeit quite poorly however.

 

 

Ever hear the statement, "you can get blood from a stone"?  Well, in any sport, coaching can only go so far.  It cannot make slow players faster.  It can't make awkward players nimble and athletic.  It can't make a weak arm into a strong one.  The best coaching can do is help a player reach his max potential, but if that potential isn't there, coaching isn't going to create it. 

 

The Bills OL lacks talent.   Maybe Dion Dawkins is a starting caliber NFL OLer, but the rest aren't at this point.  They cannot physically compete against DLs that are starting caliber units, and especially they can't compete against teams that have elite pass rushers.  All the coaching in the world cannot change that.

[SoTier]

22 hours ago, kota said:

The strength the Oline the last few years was from Center to the left side.  With the sudden departures of Wood, and Incognito the Bills are now stuck filling those positions with backups.  The Bills gave away alot of draft capital to get Edmunds and Allen which could have been used on the line.  It's always pick your poison with this stuff.

 

The OLine will shake out and is probably on the list next year for upgrades with the 100 million in cap space we will have.  

 

Incognito was 35 in 2017.  How could his retirement have come as a surprise?  35 is no longer ancient for an NFL lineman on either side of the ball, but a team has to start planning for the future.  Miller's poor play in 2017 should have been a red flag that they couldn't expect much from him if anything happened to Incognito. 

 

The Bills hardly ever seem able to address improving their OL or adding depth to it because they're always so damned busy filling holes created by their inability/unwillingness to keep many of the good players they draft beyond their rookie contracts, so they are constantly using the draft to fill the holes they themselves created.  If the Bills had kept Stephon Gilmore they wouldn't have had to draft White in the first round in 2017 or trade a 2018 third to get Benjamin.  Moreover, if they were so bent on getting a first round QB in 2018, why did they get rid of their entire WR corps in 2018 -- a WR corps that went on to shine on their new teams?   The only difference I see between the Bills under Ralph Wilson and his minions and Terry Pegula and his minions is the names and faces ... and better propaganda.

[TheFunPolice]

I think the issue is that super talented big men want to play DL rather than OL, especially the interior OL

 

Great DT get glory, stats, and huge money. Great guards or centers do ok money wise but are pretty anonymous.

 

The best linemen choosr early to be DL

 

OL play around the league is only so so

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by TheFunPolice

[NewEraBills]

After watching the game again, I'm not looking forward to this interior having to face Michael Pierce and Big Bad Brandon Williams.  If I'm the Ravens, I'd play Tim Williams on rush downs vs Mills.  I don't think Mills will be able to contend with the speed and athleticism of Williams, who has been looking really good and ready to make that jump for the Ravens.

[Spiderweb]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Ever hear the statement, "you can get blood from a stone"?  Well, in any sport, coaching can only go so far.  It cannot make slow players faster.  It can't make awkward players nimble and athletic.  It can't make a weak arm into a strong one.  The best coaching can do is help a player reach his max potential, but if that potential isn't there, coaching isn't going to create it. 

 

The Bills OL lacks talent.   Maybe Dion Dawkins is a starting caliber NFL OLer, but the rest aren't at this point.  They cannot physically compete against DLs that are starting caliber units, and especially they can't compete against teams that have elite pass rushers.  All the coaching in the world cannot change that.

Again... He's not shown to be a quality coach previous to joining the Balls either.