Beane's Counterbalance to Missing on Josh Allen: Great Trades, Drafting, and Free Agent Pickups.

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, berg1029 said:

 

Believe it or not, the draft isn't a science.  The best you can do is make an educated guess as to whether someone is going to pan out.  To stake his career on ONE draft pick is absolutely ridiculous.  Additionally, he wheeled and dealed until we had a high enough pick to take a shot without completely mortgaging the future. 

 

And as for the "wouldn't trust him to take another swing" comment:  Based on their success last year through the draft, I would argue that (thus far) he has a great track record of success in the draft.  Yes, it's just one year.  And yes, they were working with the information provided to them from Whaley's scouts.  But his personnel moves, his one draft, and his ability to wheel and deal should tell you that he knows what he is doing.  Why wouldn't you want him to take another shot?

 

 

I disagree 1000%. Staking your career on ONE draft pick can easily be the best and smartest move at the time. It might well have been the correct move this year.

 

Assuming, for example, that Darnold and Mayfield work out and Allen and Rosen don't, and that Beane had the QBs rated, say Darnold - Mayfield - major dropoff - Allen - Rosen  ... spending all our draft capital for this year and maybe some from next as well in a move up for Darnold or Mayfield would have been the smart play. It would have left us without a potential terrific MLB but with a great QB. That's a lot better than without a potential franchise QB but with a great MLB.

 

We'll see. I still have plenty of hope for Allen after a year or so of development. 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Obviously he was talking about what we had to give up vs what the Redskins gave up.  

 

To move up to 7 he Bills gave up pick 12 (which includes 1st moving up by trading Glenn) and picks 53 & 56 (which was for letting the Rams have Watkins for a year & the Bills got the pick & Gaines for a year). 

Meanwhile to move up to 2, the Redskins gave up 6, pick 39 in 2012, their 1st in 2013 (22nd) and their 1st in 2014 (#2 overall) 

 

Just the fact that the Bills didn't give up any other #1s except pick 12 proves it was a much safer trade than what Washington did.  It's not even close, they gave up 3 #1s, one of which turned out to be the 2nd pick of the draft (which the Rams wasted on a bust, Greg Robinson).  

 

 

Safer, yeah. But safer but unsuccessful means squat. This was the year to get an excellent QB. Not just some QB. 

 

And maybe he did. But if he didn't, it will look bad in retrospect.

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:

I loved the Allen pick.  But if he is a bust Beane will be gone after the 2019 season.  That is just the way it is.  

 

 

Except not.

 

Chances of Beane being gone after the 2019 season are probably around 10 - 20% max. Two years is not going to be enough to know about Allen. After two years as a guy who was always seen as developmental, he's likely to still be having problems even if he eventually works out very well indeed. Most people before the draft said he was going to need a couple of years of development. 2021? Yeah, if Allen's not successful by then and they haven't lucked into someone else ... fair enough, having picked a bust high in the first drastically raises your chances of ending up as maybe director of East Coast scouting on some other team.

 

But two years after picking Kyle Boller in the first in 2003 - he became GM in 2002 - Ozzie Newsome wasn't gone, was he?

 

Two years after picking Byron Leftwich at #7 (where have I heard that number before?) James Harris wasn't in the unemployment line. Took five years. And plenty more examples where those came from.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

The reality of the NFL is that it is quarterback selections above all else that determine the success or failure of General Managers. That said it isn't the only criteria on which Brandon Beane should be assessed. 

 

He is currently midway through a pretty major roster rebuild. If in two or three years the conclusion is that Allen is a bust (and especially if Rosen is a star) then Beane's seat will be warm. What can save him is having the rest of the roster in a place where you feel like the Bills are only a Quarterback away from being true contenders. He might have found his left tackle and #1 corner last year, one hopes he found his stud MLB this year. He will need to have filled in a couple of the other key positions (pass rusher, #1 receiver, long term center) equally impressively to survive an Allen bust. 

[mschifano]

8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

John, you’re awesome but have you ever not liked a Bills’ personnel move? ?

 

and I agree that I’m happy that took a qb.  But I definitely question the qb they took.  They took the biggest risk qb.  If he doesn’t work out, they will look like giant morons because there was a ton of evidence that he will struggle.  And I’ve never wanted to be more wrong about anything.  

 

I trust McDermott 100% on defense.  However so far, he has been questionable at best at his offensive player evaluations.

 

Not sure how u can question McDermott evaluation on Offense. He didn’t get the guy he wanted to manage the O in his first year and had to settle for his second option. This didn’t work out so he moved onto the guy he ultimately wanted immediately as the year ended. Moving on from Watkins was smart cause they were never going to retain him so getting something instead of nothing was a win win. I wish they could of retained one of three initial wrs but that will work out in the end. Moving on from cordy was writing on the wall and getting a high round first is a genius. Same can be said about Tyrod who was not the qb they wanted to build around. I think Daboll will work wonders once he has his players in place. He also will actually be a great coach and make the best out of what he has this year watch out next year!!!! BTW noway do I draft Mayfield he has the biggest attitude (bad attitude) BTW no way would he of been fit in buffalo’s culture ), Darnold no thanks, Rosen bad attitude , health concerns , slim frame, immobile and noway would he of fit into the culture in Buffalo. I think they got the best guy for what they envisioned as a fit in there culture and talent wise. U take a look at the upcoming QB class? The Bills got an actual QB that can be molded into a franchise guy no way can u say that about the guys coming out in 2019

Edited July 3, 2018 by mschifano

[The_Dude]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Why?

 

This guy was considered by some to be the overall pick in the draft.....why should we fault Beane if he doesnt work out.....

 

AND

 

He did it with house money.....not losing future 1st round draft picks

 

The revisionist history around here. 

8 hours ago, berg1029 said:

 

Believe it or not, the draft isn't a science.  The best you can do is make an educated guess as to whether someone is going to pan out.  To stake his career on ONE draft pick is absolutely ridiculous.  Additionally, he wheeled and dealed until we had a high enough pick to take a shot without completely mortgaging the future. 

 

And as for the "wouldn't trust him to take another swing" comment:  Based on their success last year through the draft, I would argue that (thus far) he has a great track record of success in the draft.  Yes, it's just one year.  And yes, they were working with the information provided to them from Whaley's scouts.  But his personnel moves, his one draft, and his ability to wheel and deal should tell you that he knows what he is doing.  Why wouldn't you want him to take another shot?

 

Talk yourself into whatever you wanna talk yourself into man. 

[eball]

10 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I mean just because the guy’s a Bill and we want him to be great doesn’t mean we have to make up false narratives.  

 

 

 

You mean, like the narrative that there is "a ton of evidence" Allen will be a bust?

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, mschifano said:

 

Not sure how u can question McDermott evaluation on Offense. He didn’t get the guy he wanted to manage the O in his first year and had to settle for his second option. This didn’t work out so he moved onto the guy he ultimately wanted immediately as the year ended. Moving on from Watkins was smart cause they were never going to retain him so getting something instead of nothing was a win win. I wish they could of retained one of three initial wrs but that will work out in the end. Moving on from cordy was writing on the wall and getting a high round first is a genius. Same can be said about Tyrod who was not the qb they wanted to build around. I think Daboll will work wonders once he has his players in place. He also will actually be a great coach and make the best out of what he has this year watch out next year!!!! BTW noway do I draft Mayfield he has the biggest attitude (bad attitude) BTW no way would he of been fit in buffalo’s culture ), Darnold no thanks, Rosen bad attitude , health concerns , slim frame, immobile and noway would he of fit into the culture in Buffalo. I think they got the best guy for what they envisioned as a fit in there culture and talent wise. U take a look at the upcoming QB class? The Bills got an actual QB that can be molded into a franchise guy no way can u say that about the guys coming out in 2019

 

Double helping of Kool Aid?

[BigBuff423]

11 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Agreed but if Mahomes is a stud and Allen isn’t, it wasn’t worth it.  

 

I understand your point: a true franchise QB trumps everything else and that's how you evaluate your talent (per se). But, IMHO, without Tre White the Bills don't end the drought curse. So, while I'm not satisfied just making the playoffs every year, getting that damn monkey off our backs was such a momentous relief, I still have a hard time believing it. 

 

So, if Allen doesn't prove out to be worth the pick, I'll be disappointed but to the OP's original point, I'm not running him out of town with pitchforks and torches either. To me, if the Bills continue to improve (and yes,  we can see / measure improvement outside of the QB - see Bills, 2017) then I think Beane can stay to pick the next QB if somehow none of the guys they have work. Even if it's Peterman (which I doubt) rises to the top and keeps his spot, then I say it's still a success. 

 

Watkins would have walked in FA anyway, so getting a 2nd in return for him was good. Glenn I really wanted the Bills to keep to slide either him or Dawkins to RT, but I get the economics of it as well and the sell-out need to get closer to the top 10, so that was a solid strategic move IMHO as well. Time will tell, but I do truly think this FO and Coaching staff have the goods to deliver a Lombardi (hopefully several!) and I'm tired of all the turnover. So, given what they've accomplished in a short time, I'm willing to give them at least 5 years to demonstrate they can build a perennial winner - presuming they don't go 2-14 each of the next 4 years, of course. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I’m not so sure... 

 

if Allen Sucks and Rosen is great, the Bills whiffed on what everyone else knew... front office needs to be accountable 

 

if Allen is great, and Better than Rosen, the bills were smarter than everyone else and they get all the credit 

[Dr. K]

12 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

Were any of the players you guys were enamored with, minus Harrison Phillips, still available from picks 53 to 96?

 

Courtland Sutton (40th)

Harold Landry (41st)

 

Connor Williams (50th)

Anthony Miller (51st)

 

 

None of mine were.

 

 

This is why I don't stress over what was given up to move up in the 1st rd; in my opinion Brandon Beane didn't break the bank.

 

The Bills surrendered Sammy Watkins, Cordy Glenn, the 12th overall pick, 53rd, and the 56th for the chance to grab Josh Allen 7th overall.

 

Far worse on paper than in actuality when you consider that Sammy Watkins was somewhat overrated, prone to injury, probably being paid a lot more than his actual football value and had his potential replacement drafted in the form of Zay Jones; Cordy Glenn was beginning to enter into the same territory as Watkins, despite being the more valuable of the two and the Bills also had his replacement on deck with Dion Dawkins.

 

Both replacements lessening the sting of both departures.

 

Beane is all about getting great value, players who perform, he's all about getting more bang for the buck.

 

 

So it's easier to understand why he would have taken Josh Allen over Josh Rosen despite the glaring areas of concern that stuck out, such as his accuracy, decision-making, and underwhelming stats versus small-school competition. 

 

 

Selecting Josh Rosen, an oft-injured college player, with what some might describe as personality flaws, would have gone against what seems to be Beane's philosophy for building a winner.

 

Josh Allen: durable, tough, athletic, smart, locker room guy, enthusiastic, coachable, powerful arm.

 

He was easily the safer investment between himself and Josh Rosen.

 

Which leads me to disagree with this notion, that Brandon Beane would be run out of town, should Josh Allen fail to materialize into what he, Sean McDermott, and Brian Daboll envision him becoming.

 

 

The Bills' roster is pretty set all around with a few areas that could use upgrades here and there and the Bills loss no future picks in acquiring Josh Allen; the present looks pretty good with things primed to only get better.

 

 

Plenty good would still be intact to see the Bills through and pressing forward should Allen fail to launch, so I have full faith that the Bills organization, the Pegulas---knowing a good thing when they see it---would simply move on from Allen versus cutting ties with Brandon Beane and breaking up the solid working relationship he's displayed with Sean McDermott---as some suggest would be the rightful outcome.

 

 

So here's to Allen panning out, but if he doesn't, it'll be good knowing the right guys are in place to right the ship, with a surer thing the next time around.

 

 

 

 

But let's crucify Doug Whaley again.

[Buffalo86]

7 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

So to review:

 

In this thread, Bills fans have applauded the GM for his QB selection, decided it may not be the right choice, but determined he should remain the GM even if it was not.

 

 

 

 

Don't forget- we still have "McBeane never got to pick his own Head Coach" in our back pocket.

[Epstein's Mother]

11 hours ago, The_Dude said:

He should be fired if Rosen is good and Allen is not. 

 

Like Tyrod Taylor good or Tom Brady good?

[Nanker]

13 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Just to play devils advocate

 

you say Rosen is injury prone and Allen is big strong and durable 

 

but

 

Allen also had a very bad shoulder injury which required a medical red shirt year so it’s not like he’s indestructable 

 

[SoTier]

13 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

Were any of the players you guys were enamored with, minus Harrison Phillips, still available from picks 53 to 96?

 

Courtland Sutton (40th)

Harold Landry (41st)

 

Connor Williams (50th)

Anthony Miller (51st)

 

 

None of mine were.

 

 

This is why I don't stress over what was given up to move up in the 1st rd; in my opinion Brandon Beane didn't break the bank.

 

The Bills surrendered Sammy Watkins, Cordy Glenn, the 12th overall pick, 53rd, and the 56th for the chance to grab Josh Allen 7th overall.

 

Far worse on paper than in actuality when you consider that Sammy Watkins was somewhat overrated, prone to injury, probably being paid a lot more than his actual football value and had his potential replacement drafted in the form of Zay Jones; Cordy Glenn was beginning to enter into the same territory as Watkins, despite being the more valuable of the two and the Bills also had his replacement on deck with Dion Dawkins.

 

Both replacements lessening the sting of both departures.

 

Beane is all about getting great value, players who perform, he's all about getting more bang for the buck.

 

 

So it's easier to understand why he would have taken Josh Allen over Josh Rosen despite the glaring areas of concern that stuck out, such as his accuracy, decision-making, and underwhelming stats versus small-school competition. 

 

 

Selecting Josh Rosen, an oft-injured college player, with what some might describe as personality flaws, would have gone against what seems to be Beane's philosophy for building a winner.

 

Josh Allen: durable, tough, athletic, smart, locker room guy, enthusiastic, coachable, powerful arm.

 

He was easily the safer investment between himself and Josh Rosen.

 

Which leads me to disagree with this notion, that Brandon Beane would be run out of town, should Josh Allen fail to materialize into what he, Sean McDermott, and Brian Daboll envision him becoming.

 

 

The Bills' roster is pretty set all around with a few areas that could use upgrades here and there and the Bills loss no future picks in acquiring Josh Allen; the present looks pretty good with things primed to only get better.

 

 

Plenty good would still be intact to see the Bills through and pressing forward should Allen fail to launch, so I have full faith that the Bills organization, the Pegulas---knowing a good thing when they see it---would simply move on from Allen versus cutting ties with Brandon Beane and breaking up the solid working relationship he's displayed with Sean McDermott---as some suggest would be the rightful outcome.

 

 

So here's to Allen panning out, but if he doesn't, it'll be good knowing the right guys are in place to right the ship, with a surer thing the next time around.

 

 

 

 

 

I disagree with this completely.  You are claiming that even if the current Bills regime fails to produce, they're still "the right guys".   Why is that?  

 

If you're a manager of a business who made questionable deals to supposedly amass "capital" that you then squandered by spending lavishly on a couple of very risky projects that had limited chances of success, especially after you had stripped your business of so many assets, why should you be given more opportunities to screw up?  Shouldn't "the right guy" prove he's "the right guy" with positive results when he spent so much and got so little to show for his "capital"?

 

Claiming that "The Bills' roster is pretty set all around with a few areas that could use upgrades here and there" is an ignorant statement.  The Bills offense is a joke.  Their QBs have fewer than 10 NFL starts among the three of them, and neither McCarron nor Peterman have demonstrated that they have the potential to be low-quality NFL starters. The Bills have 1 legitimate NFL WR, Benjamin, and he has had a history of bad knees.  Zay Jones is a bust unless and until he proves otherwise.  The retirements of Wood and Incognito and the trading of Glenn has left the Bills OL made up of journeymen and career backups with only 1 legit NFL starting quality player, sophomore OT Dion Dawkins.   

 

With the draft capital that the Bills had, they could have filled some of those offensive holes if they had stayed at #12 and taken whichever QB was left.  Allen was not such a good prospect that he merited the Bills moving up from #12.  If Rosen was available and they didn't want him, then the Bills could have passed.  They didn't have to take a first round QB if they didn't like him unless, of course, like in 2013 when the Bills took Manuel in the first round, taking a QB in the first round was primarily a move to increase ticket sales.   If that was the case, then how are "the right guys" any different from "the wrong guys" of previous regimes, OP?  In fact, how is the Pegulas' ownership any different from Ralph Wilson's ownership?  If Allen fails, which several of Beane's other personnel decisions both before and during the draft may have very well made more likely to happen, then Beane deserves the boot because he's hardly better Whaley or Donahoe. 

 

Even the best QBs need protection and targets.  As of right now, whoever plays QB for the Bills in 2018 -- and possibly going forward into 2019 and 2020 -- isn't going to have much of either one, and the fault for that lies with the GM, Brandon Beane.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by SoTier

[drf1835]

I feel Beane is safe regardless how well Allen does. Allen was apparently also the choice of Mrs. Pegula and Mr. Pegula, too, from reading the gushing and positive statements and suggestions after the selection, so Rosen lovers can root against Allen and Beane all they want, but Beane will be here regardless if Allen is a hit, neutral or a miss.

 

Also, there are no guarantees of any 1st round qb chosen. Its like playing darts sometmes. College success and projections often mean nothing. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss as unexpected things can come into play, that one did not forsee or as what you saw in colllege is not what you always get against the bigger boys with different systems. 

 

At least Beane had guts to move up and select the somewhat less popular choice, and the smarts to know this franchise needed to take a reasonable risk now, not a few years later. Beane and company should be judged on all their selections. Already he has surpassed Whaley in his moves and vision, and Whaley had been around the organization awhile.

 

The Pegulas thus are going to give a fair chance that Beane and MCDermott deserves. They started to turn things around in Buffalo their first year. I think their draft was pretty good. They focused on improving mostly defense this year, and the qb position, and my bet is the focus will be on offense mostly next year. Their attitude and process seems positive and rational to me.

 

None of the 1st round qbs were perfect. Each has upside and risks. So, I am supporting Beane, the Pegulas and McDermott for trying something risky and new, by trying to get better in the mentioned ways, by giving up things, but with hope that by doing so it will lead to a brighter future. Those at the top who succeed are not afraid to take risks and go against the grain.

 

i can see why they picked  Allen, and I feel he has just as much chance to be the best based on all I see and hear. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by drf1835

[TigerJ]

Managing careers in the NFL are all about winning.  I'm not calling for Beane's head, but if Allen were to bust completely and niether McCarron or Peterman could work as a serviceable starter, then Buffalo will lose a lot of games over the next few years.  That will make it hard for Beane to hold on to his job (and McDermott for that matter.   I'm not expecting that to happen, just trying to be realistic.

[SoTier]

12 hours ago, The Wiz said:

And continue the revolving door of coaches and GM's.  Good plan.

 

Well, then, let's extend McDermott and his side-kick Beane right now despite what they may do in the future just because they got the Bills into the playoffs last season ... just like the Bills extended Dick Jauron after the 2008 season because the Bills started that season 5-2 ...

 

6 hours ago, mschifano said:

 

Not sure how u can question McDermott evaluation on Offense. He didn’t get the guy he wanted to manage the O in his first year and had to settle for his second option. This didn’t work out so he moved onto the guy he ultimately wanted immediately as the year ended. Moving on from Watkins was smart cause they were never going to retain him so getting something instead of nothing was a win win. I wish they could of retained one of three initial wrs but that will work out in the end. Moving on from cordy was writing on the wall and getting a high round first is a genius. Same can be said about Tyrod who was not the qb they wanted to build around. I think Daboll will work wonders once he has his players in place. He also will actually be a great coach and make the best out of what he has this year watch out next year!!!! BTW noway do I draft Mayfield he has the biggest attitude (bad attitude) BTW no way would he of been fit in buffalo’s culture ), Darnold no thanks, Rosen bad attitude , health concerns , slim frame, immobile and noway would he of fit into the culture in Buffalo. I think they got the best guy for what they envisioned as a fit in there culture and talent wise. U take a look at the upcoming QB class? The Bills got an actual QB that can be molded into a franchise guy no way can u say that about the guys coming out in 2019

 

McDermott seems to be Dick Jauron's twin brother from a another mother, and the more I see of him, the more I'm convinced of this.  McDermott shares a similar "play not to lose" coaching style which leads to lots of boring games, lots of  "shoulda, coulda, woulda" game results, and lots of scapegoating of players whom poor coaching/personnel decisions put into untenable situations during games. McDermott, like Dick Jauron, seems to define "team player" as blind support for whatever he says/does.   "My way or the highway" was the Bills "culture" in 2006-2009 under Jauron, and that seems to be what the Bills "culture"  has become since McDermott has taken over.  Both Jauron and McDermott seemed to believe that that adhering to the  HC's version of "political correctness" should triumph over talent every time.  Moreover, like Jauron, McDermott seems to view the offense as a necessary evil, and the OL as an unimportant decoration instead of the foundation for offensive success that successful NFL HCs know it is.

 

My guess is that the 2018 Bills are going to be one of the worst offensive scoring teams in the NFL if not the worst.  Given that the Bills have Hauschka, they likely won't get shut out frequently but I expect they'll double 2017's 2 no TD games.  They are crap on offense except for RB and TE, but feel free to put the blame for the offensive woes on McDermott's OCs.   Fans did that Jauron's OCs, too.

Edited July 3, 2018 by SoTier

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

39 minutes ago, drf1835 said:

I feel Beane is safe regardless how well Allen does. Allen was apparently also the choice of Mrs. Pegula and Mr. Pegula, too, from reading the gushing and positive statements and suggestions after the selection, so Rosen lovers can root against Allen and Beane all they want, but Beane will be here regardless if Allen is a hit, neutral or a miss.

 

Also, there are no guarantees of any 1st round qb chosen. Its like playing darts sometmes. College success and projections often mean nothing. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss as unexpected things can come into play, that one did not forsee or as what you saw in colllege is not what you always get against the bigger boys with different systems. 

 

At least Beane had guts to move up and select the somewhat less popular choice, and the smarts to know this franchise needed to take a reasonable risk now, not a few years later. Beane and company should be judged on all their selections. Already he has surpassed Whaley in his moves and vision, and Whaley had been around the organization awhile.

 

The Pegulas thus are going to give a fair chance that Beane and MCDermott deserves. They started to turn things around in Buffalo their first year. I think their draft was pretty good. They focused on improving mostly defense this year, and the qb position, and my bet is the focus will be on offense mostly next year. Their attitude and process seems positive and rational to me.

 

None of the 1st round qbs were perfect. Each has upside and risks. So, I am supporting Beane, the Pegulas and McDermott for trying something risky and new, by trying to get better in the mentioned ways, by giving up things, but with hope that by doing so it will lead to a brighter future. Those at the top who succeed are not afraid to take risks and go against the grain.

 

i can see why they picked  Allen, and I feel he has just as much chance to be the best based on all I see and hear. 

 

.....we could always go back to the "good 'ol days" of letting misfits, unqualifieds and "over the hill gang members" run the show and keep churning the turnstile.....probably could duplicate the "17 year run"......McBeane, McD & Company are the best we've had at OBD since Polian.......

[ProcessAccepted]

14 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

 

The Bills' roster is pretty set all around with a few areas that could use upgrades here and there and the Bills loss no future picks in acquiring Josh Allen; the present looks pretty good with things primed to only get better.

 

 

Plenty good would still be intact to see the Bills through and pressing forward should Allen fail to launch, so I have full faith that the Bills organization, the Pegulas---knowing a good thing when they see it---would simply move on from Allen versus cutting ties with Brandon Beane and breaking up the solid working relationship he's displayed with Sean McDermott---as some suggest would be the rightful outcome.

 

 

So here's to Allen panning out, but if he doesn't, it'll be good knowing the right guys are in place to right the ship, with a surer thing the next time around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

Managing careers in the NFL are all about winning.  I'm not calling for Beane's head, but if Allen were to bust completely and niether McCarron or Peterman could work as a serviceable starter, then Buffalo will lose a lot of games over the next few years.  That will make it hard for Beane to hold on to his job (and McDermott for that matter.   I'm not expecting that to happen, just trying to be realistic.

 

Correct.  And the only way he avoids that is by having a really strong roster than can go 7-9 to 9-7 with nothing more than passable QB play.  If he is bobbing at 7-9/8-8 maybe even a 6-10 with QB play the biggest thing holding them back then he will get to take another shot at drafting one.  

[SoTier]

3 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

.....we could always go back to the "good 'ol days" of letting misfits, unqualifieds and "over the hill gang members" run the show and keep churning the turnstile.....probably could duplicate the "17 year run"......McBeane, McD & Company are the best we've had at OBD since Polian.......

 

How do we know this?  Because the Bills got lucky last year and made the playoffs?    They've been 9-7 numerous times before.  They failed to be competive against the Patriots, losing the first game 23-3 and the second one 37-16.  In case you don't remember, that's 1 TD in 8 quarters.  They also got stomped by the offensive powerhouse Saints and the defensive powerhouse Chargers.  They caught Atlanta napping early in the season and Indy shocked by a damned blizzard late.  They smacked QB-less Miami twice.  Then they got an absolute gift from the Bengals in the closing seconds of the final game.   I'll be impressed when I see fewer games that remind me of 2006-2009.

[ProcessAccepted]

14 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Just to play devils advocate

 

you say Rosen is injury prone and Allen is big strong and durable 

 

but

 

Allen also had a very bad shoulder injury which required a medical red shirt year so it’s not like he’s indestructable 

 

Agreed but like several posters have pointed out concussions are not good. Once you have one the likelihood of subsequent concussions increases dramatically. I'm happy that we're gambling on a guy with a shoulder injury in his past rather than the guy with multiple concussions.

 

2 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

How do we know this?  Because the Bills got lucky last year and made the playoffs?    They've been 9-7 numerous times before.  They failed to be competive against the Patriots, losing the first game 23-3 and the second one 37-16.  In case you don't remember, that's 1 TD in 8 quarters.  They also got stomped by the offensive powerhouse Saints and the defensive powerhouse Chargers.  They caught Atlanta napping early in the season and Indy shocked by a damned blizzard late.  They smacked QB-less Miami twice.  Then they got an absolute gift from the Bengals in the closing seconds of the final game.   I'll be impressed when I see fewer games that remind me of 2006-2009.

 

Just to make sure that I understand your premise -  whenever anything good happened we just got lucky - Does that sum up your point correctly? 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

How do we know this?  Because the Bills got lucky last year and made the playoffs?    They've been 9-7 numerous times before.  They failed to be competive against the Patriots, losing the first game 23-3 and the second one 37-16.  In case you don't remember, that's 1 TD in 8 quarters.  They also got stomped by the offensive powerhouse Saints and the defensive powerhouse Chargers.  They caught Atlanta napping early in the season and Indy shocked by a damned blizzard late.  They smacked QB-less Miami twice.  Then they got an absolute gift from the Bengals in the closing seconds of the final game.   I'll be impressed when I see fewer games that remind me of 2006-2009.

 

Only twice during the drought actually. 

 

I think it is fine to keep an open mind on how good McDermott and Beane are... but not liking the style of their wins is not a good argument for lumping them in with Jauron who never won more than 7 games in a season. 

[dollars 2 donuts]

14 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

24 days!

 

 

CB, we are sooooo close to half way through the deadzone.  Tick tock to the 3 week mark and the down hill slope of the pre-training camp blues.

[The Wiz]

25 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Well, then, let's extend McDermott and his side-kick Beane right now despite what they may do in the future just because they got the Bills into the playoffs last season ... just like the Bills extended Dick Jauron after the 2008 season because the Bills started that season 5-2 ...

 

Exactly what I said.  Or how about we not base a person performance drafting players based on missing on a QB his first time trying to land one.  

[Augie]

On 7/2/2018 at 9:40 PM, The_Dude said:

 

Would you argue the cause. Justified. Wouldn’t trust him to take another swing. 

 

So, instead of just taking another swing at a QB (which is known to be hit or miss for all teams), you want the owners to take another swing at a new GM, who will want a new coach, who will have a new scheme, which will need a bunch of new players to fit the scheme, which will eat up every draft pick for the next 2-3 years.....to see how THAT turns out?  OH! And they will still need to take a swing at a new QB! 

 

Not much of a plan in my mind. How do I know? Because THAT’S WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING! 

 

 

.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Augie

[The Wiz]

13 hours ago, The_Dude said:

 

Would you argue the cause. Justified. Wouldn’t trust him to take another swing. 

Considering he, MCD and the pegulas were all on board (allegedly) with the pick, I'm fine with him trying again if Allen fails.

 

Also, the thing about Allen that is better IMO is that he is a boom or bust pick.  Either they know they are good with him or they move on from him in 2 season.  It's not the old NFL where you drop 100 million on a contract and are stuck with him if he doesn't work out.

Edited July 3, 2018 by The Wiz

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, The Wiz said:

Considering he, MCD and the pegulas were all on board (allegedly) with the pick, I'm fine with him trying again if Allen fails.

 

What about if the rest of the roster still looks a bit ramshackle in 3 years and Allen has flamed out and say Tre White is the only bona fide star on the team? If we go 5-11, 4-12, 5-11 then what do you do? Let him try again at a QB and again at building the rest of the roster? To me if he has build a decent roster with young talent but not found his QB he gets another shot. If Allen is a stud but the pieces around him still aren't good enough he gets a bit longer to put those pieces on place. If the roster looks sub par and the QB fails he gets fired. 

[nedboy7]

Allen’s performance will define this regime.  Fair or not.  If he is a bust I don’t trust them trading more picks for the next bust. 

[The Wiz]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What about if the rest of the roster still looks a bit ramshackle in 3 years and Allen has flamed out and say Tre White is the only bona fide star on the team? If we go 5-11, 4-12, 5-11 then what do you do? Let him try again at a QB and again at building the rest of the roster? To me if he has build a decent roster with young talent but not found his QB he gets another shot. If Allen is a stud but the pieces around him still aren't good enough he gets a bit longer to put those pieces on place. If the roster looks sub par and the QB fails he gets fired. 

That's fair.  I'm basing it off of either allen succeeds or he doesn't.  Not what happens with the rest of the team.  I will say that he has already added pieces to the team that have made it better than it was the year prior so he at least looks like he is moving the team in the right direction.  Most thought our biggest weakness was going to be our secondary and he fixed that before the season started.

 

Also I don't think Allen's success is going to be determined by who drafted him but by who develops him.  That's where most of my concern comes.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, The Wiz said:

That's fair.  I'm basing it off of either allen succeeds or he doesn't.  Not what happens with the rest of the team.  I will say that he has already added pieces to the team that have made it better than it was the year prior so he at least looks like he is moving the team in the right direction.  Most thought our biggest weakness was going to be our secondary and he fixed that before the season started.

 

Also I don't think Allen's success is going to be determined by who drafted him but by who develops him.  That's where most of my concern comes.

 

Actually McDermott was responsible for 3/4s of the secondary.  Beane was only here for the addition of Gaines.  I loved the McDermott hire by the way and once we had hired him then it had to be Beane because I wanted a HC and GM who were totally aligned for once.  So I am positive and optimistic.  I don't love the Allen pick but am happy to be proved wrong.  I am just being realistic about the way the NFL is.  He either has to hit on the QB or hit on the rest of his roster to give him a chance to win enough games to keep his job and get a second crack at finding the Franchise guy. 

 

If the Bills are bad in 2018 coaching and personnel jobs are not really on the line... if they are still bad in 2019 then there will be pressure and if they are bad three years running both McDermott and Beane will be out. I hope that doesn't happen because I like both guys, but ultimately it is about wins and losses.  

[The Wiz]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Actually McDermott was responsible for 3/4s of the secondary.  Beane was only here for the addition of Gaines.  I loved the McDermott hire by the way and once we had hired him then it had to be Beane because I wanted a HC and GM who were totally aligned for once.  So I am positive and optimistic.  I don't love the Allen pick but am happy to be proved wrong.  I am just being realistic about the way the NFL is.  He either has to hit on the QB or hit on the rest of his roster to give him a chance to win enough games to keep his job and get a second crack at finding the Franchise guy. 

 

If the Bills are bad in 2018 coaching and personnel jobs are not really on the line... if they are still bad in 2019 then there will be pressure and if they are bad three years running both McDermott and Beane will be out. I hope that doesn't happen because I like both guys, but ultimately it is about wins and losses.  

Fair enough on the secondary.  I think the moves beane has been making is part of a plan to get there team in a good place for 2019.  Freeing up cap and saving future picks this year instead of giving them up to move up further than 7 was a good indication of that.

 

Also getting rid of players that don't fit the team first mentality.

[The_Dude]

2 hours ago, Epstein's Mother said:

 

Like Tyrod Taylor good or Tom Brady good?

 

Tyrod is awful. 

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, The_Dude said:

 

The revisionist history around here. 

 

Talk yourself into whatever you wanna talk yourself into man. 

What exactly is revisionist?

 

Please explain

[kota]

I seriously doubt that hte coach or GM will be going anywhere for 10 years.  Pegulas have bought in as they should.

[26CornerBlitz]

16 minutes ago, kota said:

I seriously doubt that hte coach or GM will be going anywhere for 10 years.  Pegulas have bought in as they should.

 

Ten years?  They haven't proven anything thus far to inspire that kind of confidence along with that long reign. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[BillsfanAZ]

I think Beanes time as GM for the Bills is linked to Allen. It will be 2 or 3 yrs before a fair assessment can be made of Allen. At that time Beane will be at a point where if the team is not performing then his time as GM may be over. That being said, succcess for Allen will not be just on Allen alone. The right coaching, system, and players around him will be big factors in how successful he will be. When it comes to reading defenses and making the right throws on time with accuracy will be on Allen. 

[The_Dude]

14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

What exactly is revisionist?

 

Please explain

 

Josh Allen was largely identified by the draft gurus as the guy with the biggest bust potential. There were a solid 3-4 draft experts in his corner, but let’s not pretend that he was highly thought of. He was NOT talked about as being safe. Allen was not a safe pick. He has potential and could be great, but he was largely considered to be the worst of the big-4 coming out. To spin it any other way only a couple of months later is ridiculous. 

[C.Biscuit97]

58 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

Fair enough on the secondary.  I think the moves beane has been making is part of a plan to get there team in a good place for 2019.  Freeing up cap and saving future picks this year instead of giving them up to move up further than 7 was a good indication of that.

 

Also getting rid of players that don't fit the team first mentality.

Funny that the majority of those guys who didn’t fit the “team first” mentality went to the playoffs and one won a SB.

 

This whole BS character culture is overblown.  It’s also funny that we just signed a bunch of guys who got popped for PEDs but I guess they fit the culture.

[John from Riverside]

12 minutes ago, The_Dude said:

 

Josh Allen was largely identified by the draft gurus as the guy with the biggest bust potential. There were a solid 3-4 draft experts in his corner, but let’s not pretend that he was highly thought of. He was NOT talked about as being safe. Allen was not a safe pick. He has potential and could be great, but he was largely considered to be the worst of the big-4 coming out. To spin it any other way only a couple of months later is ridiculous. 

Hmmmm

2 of these QBs were drafted before we could pick at 7.   If you ask me the bills would have taken Sam Darnold if he was on the board...he wasnt.

 

but

 

Does that really matter?   This was the best QB draft to come along in some time.   if Josh Allen was in LAST year's draft he would have went even higher.

 

and

 

Our choices if we were going to select a QB now were Josh Allen or Josh Rosen (who I could care less about attitude he is in fact concussion prone and runs right into hits when in the pocket.

 

I think Beane deserves credit for taking the swing.....it is even sweeter because we didnt have to give up future draft capital to do it.