If You Ever Want a Top Rated QB Prospect...You Have to Suffer

[Nihilarian]

The Biggest problem with this team was a lack of quality GM, coaching, and scouting dept to find a high caliber talent in the first place. Second, to allow him to survive long enough to develop properly.

 

Trent Edwards looked like a young Joe Montana at first (2008) and after several severe concussions behind bad lines with terribad coaching(Turk Schonert, AVP), a bad scheme ( A WCO QB in a Mike Martz deep passing scheme) he became a bad QB. Just like JP Losman, EJ.

 

Shoot, EJ didn't even have the luxury of a QB coach in his first season in Buffalo, nor did he have a veteran QB to help show him the ropes. All he had was an OC who had never been an NFL OC previously. Talk about a ridiculously stupid way to develop a QB. To draft a rookie QB in the first round only to not give him the proper means to develop. He was supposed to sit for a season to develop and even that wouldn't have helped at all with nobody to teach him. EJ stated he learned far more from watching Kyle Orton prepare for a game than from any coaching. 

 

This new HC, GM, OC, and scouting dept should be able to determine a high caliber QB from the top six and then draft, develop him properly. This, for the first time in nearly a decade. 

[ILBillsfan]

23 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Not the case. Countless examples to refute this.

 

 

but yet you list not one...... And not the first time you just spout off this stuff but nothing to back it up.

 

Its great that you post news and info but you offer mostly nothing to logically debate or refute what has been posted.

[26CornerBlitz]

4 minutes ago, ILBillsfan said:

but yet you list not one...... And not the first time you just spout off this stuff but nothing to back it up.

 

Its great that you post news and info but you offer mostly nothing to logically debate or refute what has been posted.

 

You should read the thread before spouting off because I did provide examples. 

[JerseyBills]

23 hours ago, Boyst62 said:

I know I call you out all the time, and deservedly so because your responses are almost always this painful.

 

I advise two things to you when replying:

1) the original poster had a premise he believed in (whether you did or not, you're not special to be a judge in it's worth and see #2). So, when you disagree tell why and list examples of those countless examples. Otherwise you sound just like yourself: a joke

 

2) don't reply at all. You're not special. You're a joke.

 

Your constant inclusion to reply with one liners to someone's original thought is immature.  It is also hypocritical when you, yourself, can only muster up 99.27% of your contributions here as being someone else's content with the remaining minority lacking effort and original thought.

 

tl,dr: you're a joke and keep it to yourself, Francis.

Damn, I'm on nobody's side here but you sound like you have a clear vendetta towards 26 and I personally agree with his response, but the point is,the same things you're accusing him of,you are doing yourself. 

I guess leading by example isn't an option

[ILBillsfan]

9 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You should read the thread before spouting off because I did provide examples. 

No you didn't  ..... thus the quote ....oph you mean three pages in when all you listed Roethlisberger(closest you came) Wentz who fit his scenario they moved up to get him and rogers who was not viewed as a top QB prospect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Damn, I'm on nobody's side here but you sound like you have a clear vendetta towards 26 and I personally agree with his response, but the point is,the same things you're accusing him of,you are doing yourself. 

I guess leading by example isn't an option

If you do not get it you don’t get it.  

 

Copying someone else’s words 90 % of the time and calling people clueless 5% of the time leaves 5% of his posts actual commentary.  

 

[26CornerBlitz]

53 minutes ago, ILBillsfan said:

No you didn't  ..... thus the quote ....oph you mean three pages in when all you listed Roethlisberger(closest you came) Wentz who fit his scenario they moved up to get him and rogers who was not viewed as a top QB prospect

 

 

No I mean on the first page when I responded to the OP and Rodgers was in the running to be selected first overall with Alex Smith in 2005.  Know what you're talking about before ignorantly spouting off. 

 

1 hour ago, JerseyBills said:

Damn, I'm on nobody's side here but you sound like you have a clear vendetta towards 26 and I personally agree with his response, but the point is,the same things you're accusing him of,you are doing yourself. 

I guess leading by example isn't an option

 

Of course he has a vendetta, but that's a sad reflection on him.  He's not the only one as you see from another pathetic post by @ShadyBillsFan

Edited February 25, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[BringBackFergy]

I see this thread is going well. 

[ILBillsfan]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

No I mean on the first page when I responded to the and Rodgers was in the running to be selected first overall with Alex Smith in 2005.  Know what you're talking about before ignorantly spouting off. 

No he wasn't here straight form the packers page

 

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/02/02/watch-aaron-rodgers-reads-his-old-draft-scouting-reports/

 

Btw this would be actually providing facts vs spouting off with just your opinion

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, ILBillsfan said:

No he wasn't here straight form the packers page

 

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2018/02/02/watch-aaron-rodgers-reads-his-old-draft-scouting-reports/

 

Btw this would be actually providing facts vs spouting off with just your opinio

 

 

Straight from your link:

 

Rodgers was seen as a potential No. 1 overall pick coming out of Cal in 2005. The San Francisco 49ers passed, taking Alex Smith with the top pick, leaving Rodgers to free fall all the way to No. 24. There, Packers general manager Ted Thompson was ready and waiting.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

6 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

I see this thread is going well. 

 

As does any thread with the twitter bot

[ILBillsfan]

 

2 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Straight from your link:

 

Rodgers was seen as a potential No. 1 overall pick coming out of Cal in 2005. The San Francisco 49ers passed, taking Alex Smith with the top pick, leaving Rodgers to free fall all the way to No. 24. There, Packers general manager Ted Thompson was ready and waiting.

and all of these but I like that you are actually showing facts vs just your words

 

NFL Scout: “I think he has a good chance of being a bust. Just like every other Tedford-coached quarterback. Thing I struggle with him is he gets sacked a lot. He doesn’t have great ability to change the release of the football. He’s mechanically very rigid. Brett Favre can change his release point and find different windows. There will be more growing pains with Alex Smith but in the end he has a much better chance to be much better.”

NFC scout: “The guys that Tedford has had, what have they developed into? They’re too well-schooled. So mechanical. So robotic. I don’t know if they become good pro players. I think Rodgers is in that same mold.”

AFC scout: “He’s a system quarterback. 3-, 5-, 7-step guy. Can’t create on his own. Panics under pressure. Gets flustered easy. I don’t think there’s a quarterback in the draft worthy of a first-round pick. I’m dead serious. None of them are worth it.”

Marc Ross, Buffalo: “He’s a little short. The thing you worry about is those (Jeff) Tedford guys. They don’t do anything for a couple years and then they have a good year or two. Who of his quarterbacks has done what they’re supposed to do? None of them. Is he just working magic with great college quarterbacks or just manufacturing guys?”

AFC scout: “I don’t like him. He’s a clone of Harrington and Boller. They all throw the same way. What have those guys done? Nothing. If you take him in the second round, fine. Heady guy. They do a marvelous job of coaching quarterbacks there. I don’t think he’s as good as the top quarterbacks coming out last year.”

 

Getting way off the original subject but I do think it was interesting see Marc Ross form Buffalo that year and the scouting reports show 23 times whey teams did not think he was top rated QB prospect

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, ILBillsfan said:

 

and all of these but I like that you are actually showing facts vs just your words

 

NFL Scout: “I think he has a good chance of being a bust. Just like every other Tedford-coached quarterback. Thing I struggle with him is he gets sacked a lot. He doesn’t have great ability to change the release of the football. He’s mechanically very rigid. Brett Favre can change his release point and find different windows. There will be more growing pains with Alex Smith but in the end he has a much better chance to be much better.”

NFC scout: “The guys that Tedford has had, what have they developed into? They’re too well-schooled. So mechanical. So robotic. I don’t know if they become good pro players. I think Rodgers is in that same mold.”

AFC scout: “He’s a system quarterback. 3-, 5-, 7-step guy. Can’t create on his own. Panics under pressure. Gets flustered easy. I don’t think there’s a quarterback in the draft worthy of a first-round pick. I’m dead serious. None of them are worth it.”

Marc Ross, Buffalo: “He’s a little short. The thing you worry about is those (Jeff) Tedford guys. They don’t do anything for a couple years and then they have a good year or two. Who of his quarterbacks has done what they’re supposed to do? None of them. Is he just working magic with great college quarterbacks or just manufacturing guys?”

AFC scout: “I don’t like him. He’s a clone of Harrington and Boller. They all throw the same way. What have those guys done? Nothing. If you take him in the second round, fine. Heady guy. They do a marvelous job of coaching quarterbacks there. I don’t think he’s as good as the top quarterbacks coming out last year.”

 

Getting way off the original subject but I do think it was interesting see Marc Ross form Buffalo that year and the scouting reports show 23 times whey teams did not think he was top rated QB prospect

 

I'll bet all of them wished they had a do over on those scouting reports. 

[boyst]

18 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Damn, I'm on nobody's side here but you sound like you have a clear vendetta towards 26 and I personally agree with his response, but the point is,the same things you're accusing him of,you are doing yourself. 

I guess leading by example isn't an option

I do.  I think he brings the board down with his potshots and always chirping in baselessly. Most ignore him but since the original Kaepernick thread when he spouted off constantly providing no insight and engaging others hostily whom got disciplined for returning fire I have called him out all day and will continue to do so.

 

He is a worthless poster.

 

I don't need to lead by the way. It not my style. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

No I mean on the first page when I responded to the and Rodgers was in the running to be selected first overall with Alex Smith in 2005.  Know what you're talking about before ignorantly spouting off. 

 

 

Of course he has a vendetta, but that's a sad reflection on him.  He's not the only one as you see from another pathetic post by @ShadyBillsFan

Grow a pair and engage me you coward.

[Augie]

23 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Let's take a look at a couple ways teams acquired QB that refute this

Seasnakes: Case study for Draft a Hidden Gem

2010/2011 7-9, 7-9 (Hasselbeck, TJax).  #7D

2012 (Wilson, drafted in 3rd) 11-5 [I would like to point out that they both brought TJax back that year as a baseline, and signed the best FA they could find]

2013 13-3, Superbowl

 

KC: Case study for "trade for that QB" - they did suffer, but weren't able to benefit from a high QB pick

2011 7-9

2012 2-14  (Cassel)

2013 11-5 (Smith, traded from 49ers for 2 2nd round picks) [the Chiefs owned the #1 pick but did not like the QB draft class]

 

Iggles: Case study "trade for, then draft #2, sign FA, I don't care, just f**kin' get one.  Get two.  Hell, get four!")

2013, 2014 10-6 (Foles, Sanchez)

2015 7-9 (Bradford, traded from StL Rams)

2016 7-9 (Wentz, traded up to pick.  Then recovered picks by trading Bradford) [also signed Chase Daniel in FA]

2017 13-3 (Wentz, Foles) [signed Foles in FA and released Daniel]

 

I don't want to deny that a high 1st round pick (after sucking the year before, in a year with a great QB draft) is the most straightforward way to get a QB.

But I think all of the above cases show that there are various strategies that will work.  You just have to try, and keep trying.

 

The Bills problem isn't that they haven't "suffered enough", it's that they haven't tried hard enough.  Our one shot was to draft a QB late 1st in a class where those owning the top picks turned up their noses, give that 2 years.  Then another one-shot to sign a sleeper FA, give that 3 years.  Rinse and repeat.

 

Yes, option #3 was left out......sit where you are and get lucky! You mentioned Wilson, but Aaron Rodgers came to my mind first. Packers sat there at 24 and he fell in their laps. THAT was a good day for the Packers! But you have to be willing to pull the trigger.

 

 

I almost wish I had stayed out of this thread entirely!  

[boyst]

30 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You should read the thread before spouting off because I did provide examples. 

Then how did I spank you in the 3rd reply?  You add nothing here.  You're a joke.

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Yes, option #3 was left out......sit where you are and get lucky! You mentioned Wilson, but Aaron Rodgers came to my mind first. Packers sat there at 24 and he fell in their laps. THAT was a good day for the Packers! But you have to be willing to pull the trigger.

 

I almost wish I had stayed out of this thread entirely!  

 

It should have stayed as strictly a football discussion, but too many trolls decided to take it off course. 

[JerseyBills]

2 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

I do.  I think he brings the board down with his potshots and always chirping in baselessly. Most ignore him but since the original Kaepernick thread when he spouted off constantly providing no insight and engaging others hostily whom got disciplined for returning fire I have called him out all day and will continue to do so.

 

He is a worthless poster.

 

I don't need to lead by the way. It not my style. 

 

 

Grow a pair and engage me you coward.

Well I guess ill just get my popcorn ready. I actually enjoy and respect both of you guys , as you both are very active and imo provide quality information and insight. I don't agree with everything you guys say but I definitely respect both of your guys football i.q..

[FappyTheClown]

Love is in the air everywhere.

[ndirish1978]

On 2/24/2018 at 3:34 PM, Schmuggs said:

Nice comment. 

 

Why do you feel the need to attempt to bring down someone because he disagree with your weak opinion?

 

I suggest you control yourself and stop with the d-bag like attitude.   

 

Lets be cool and respectful. 

 

Thanks RWNW. 

 

 

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA. THIS coming from the hypocrite who acts like he's the moral arbiter of the board? You JUST called him a douchebag!!! How's that respectful? Take off Leroi, you have nothing to say anymore. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by ndirish1978

[reddogblitz]

20 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Point taken.  Question: how do you view the Sammy Watkins trade up, was it worth it?  IMO, there is no difference, aside from position, between that and trading up for a QB.

 

Sammy was not a missed shot. JP was.

 

Besides that, not all missed shots are bad

 

 

Edited February 25, 2018 by reddogblitz

[Schmuggs]

23 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA. THIS coming from the hypocrite who acts like he's the moral arbiter of the board? You JUST called him a douchebag!!! How's that respectful? Take off Leroi, you have nothing to say anymore. 

 

Lol. Irish has been triggered!!

 

I suggest controlling yourself and once again please stop being so critical. 

 

You constant judging of members is unbecoming.

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

So telling the truth is now pathetic?

 

 

point proven.  

 

[Chuck Wagon]

I just don't agree with the premise.

 

Unless I'm WAY off base on the price, I think after the trade last year, we've positioned ourselves to get one of the top 3 or 4 QBs in this class while still having two day 2 picks (the normal amount) and having our draft next year largely intact.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Total nonsense.  Ask any Bills fan about suffering and then coming up with the prize.

[GrizzReaper]

I agree with the OP. In order to get a shot at the 1st or 2nd pick (which is usually where the best prospects are guesstimated to be picked) you either have to have a horrid year of football or trade away a lot of draft capital to move into one of those spots. Maybe even trade a good player and some picks. All three of those options can be considered suffering in some way, shape, or form.

 

I think a year of 0-16 is suffering (heck some 9-7 seasons I considered suffering.) I think giving up multiple 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks would suck... Last route trading away say.... McCoy or White and a pick would suck too. Other than those scenarios I dont know of another way to get to the top of the draft. For a QB or not... Whomever it is this can't miss talent may be.

 

I just hope our scouts and GM do a thorough job regarding the QBs. If they do all thier homework and say hey Rosen or Allen or whoever is going to be a good QB then yeah do what needs to be done to land him. Just be damn sure hes going to make it bc if not well trading away draft capital with all these holes on the roster will suck. They cant guaruntee the pick is going to work out but they can do thier jobs to the best of thier ability and be confident he will pan out.

 

The team has other needs that have to be adressed for sure. We still have to see how FA goes. I am not of the opinion that they should stay pat if they feel they have scouted a good franchise QB in this class. If they have to trade away picks to get him I think they should do it. At least our future QB is on the roster. Let the other pieces "wait" until next year or the year after. Put those pieces into place later. Build around this guy from the ground up. All just my opinion... I'm aware there is more than one way to skin a cat. I just want to see our team finally have a good QB. It's been too long!

 

 

 

[pennstate10]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The top 2 picks of the draft are where the odds of getting a franchise QB are highest. 

 

This statement may or may not be true.  I'd have to see the numbers to really assess it.

 

But I know this is true.

 

Since the year 2000, 1 (one) SuperBowl has been won by a QB who was a top 2 pick (Peyton Manning, Colts, 2007).

 

In that same time, three SuperBowls have been won by a top 5 pick QB.

 

Since 2000, 21 QBs have been selected in the top 5.  Only one of them (Eli Manning, 2004) has won a Super Bowl.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/03/04/list-of-qbs-selected-in-first-round-of-nfl-draft-since-2000/98734644/

 

These are simply facts.  Look at them however you'd like.

 

Not sure that we need a top 5 pick.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Can't suffer any more time to get The Guy!

[Victory Formation]

I'm luke warm on the QBs this year. I like Jackson, Rudolph and Lauletta, but I don't love them. I don't think we should spend a 1st on QB because there are too many can't miss prospects at 21 & 22. If we go QB in RD2, we can move on from them in 1 year. Spending a 1st on a QB likely means McD's wagon is hitched to that prospect and I think that could be dangerous. Sure, there's some solid characteristics I like about them, but nobody I'd go all in on.

[ndirish1978]

3 hours ago, Schmuggs said:

 

Lol. Irish has been triggered!!

 

I suggest controlling yourself and once again please stop being so critical. 

 

You constant judging of members is unbecoming.

 

It makes me sad when I see you post here now Leroi now that you don't have any inside info. You're like the washed up mean girl who peaked in high school and loses her looks who returns to her high school reunion to relive her glory days, only to find that no one really ever liked her and she's lost the only thing that made people tolerate her. In short, you are the Tara Reid of TBD.

Edited February 26, 2018 by ndirish1978

[Fadingpain]

On February 24, 2018 at 3:26 PM, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

 

Arent you the poster who believes the K. Benjamin Trade was just coincidence and not connections.  That was you!!!  Lol.  Your the dude who doesn’t believe in relationships.  Oh brother.

 

but beside that embarrassing post of your time on this board...let’s see the evidence.

Don't get all hot and bothered about 26Cornerblitz.

 

His takes are consistently among the worst on this board.

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Don't get all hot and bothered about 26Cornerblitz.

 

His takes are consistently among the worst on this board.

 

Really. Are you still a member of the Peterman fan club?  Now go back to complain about the Tiger Woods thread.  

[BillsFan130]

34 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

It makes me sad when I see you post here now Leroi now that you don't have any inside info. You're like the washed up mean girl who peaked in high school and loses her looks who returns to her high school reunion to relive her glory days, only to find that no one really ever liked her and she's lost the only thing that made people tolerate her. In short, you are the Tara Reid of TBD.

That is Tara Reid on the right?? Wow she is looking rough

[LABILLBACKER]

On 2/24/2018 at 1:00 PM, Green Lightning said:

 

When all is said and done it's hard to refute this. It's absolutely true, the Bills just haven't tried hard enough, haven't drafted enough quarterbacks, and a passed over too many because they didn't like them only to have them pan out. They just have to do better. Let's start this year.

I've said for years we needed to draft more qbs. I'd even go as far as drafting 2 in a year like this. We're all well aware of the importance of this position. Good organizations are willing to take the risk. Even if it means trading up.  I think our current braintrust will make the right decisions and they'll take the chances necessary to find our franchise guy.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

52 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

This statement may or may not be true.  I'd have to see the numbers to really assess it.

 

Oh, it's true.  I've posted a breakdown of QB drafted through the first 5 rounds using hard numeric criteria.  Search if you like.  Mid - Jan "QB Draft Results" or something like that.

Someone else did it by "TLAR" (that looks about right) and achieved similar results.

 

I didn't break out the top 2 picks in that one, just the top 5, so I'll do that here:

1998-2016 top 5 rounds 

Criteria: Completion %; YPA; TD/INT (chosen because they correlate to winning).  Same criteria used all 5 rounds

Pick #1,2: 19 QB.  Yes: 11/19, 58%.  Maybe: 3/18, 16%.  Yes + Maybe = 75%

Yes: Goff, Wentz, Winston, Mariota, Luck, Griffin (inj), Bradford(inj), Stafford,Alex Smith,Palmer, P. Manning (11)

Maybe (No by criteria, but most people would say Y): Newton, Eli Manning, McNabb (3)

No: Russell, Carr, Vick, Couch, Leaf (5)

 

Pick 1-5 50%

Pick 6-32 19%

2nd round: 20%

3rd round: 15%

4th round: 10%

5th round: no one really (AJ McCarron and Craig Nall, neither played more than 7 games)

 

You can debate names - maybe you score Newton and E. Manning "yes" and RGIII and Bradford "no" - doesn't change the conclusion.

 

 

[#34fan]

6 hours ago, Boyst62 said:

Then how did I spank you in the 3rd reply?  You add nothing here. 

 

 Except for the timely news updates, and relevant, thought-provoking article-links.

 

6 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

It should have stayed as strictly a football discussion, but too many trolls decided to take it off course. 

 

26, I will absolutlely talk sh_t to you EVERY CHANCE I GET... But I want to thank you for your positive contributions to this board. -Place wouldn't be the same without ya!

 

More peaceful maybe, but not the same.

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

 Except for the timely news updates, and relevant, thought-provoking article-links.

 

 

26, I will absolutlely talk sh_t to you EVERY CHANCE I GET... But I want to thank you for your positive contributions to this board. -Place wouldn't be the same without ya!

 

More peaceful maybe, but not the same.

That a boy could perform and was done much more regularly before his coming here?  

[#34fan]

Just now, Boyst62 said:

That a boy could perform and was done much more regularly before his coming here?  

 

?

 

JboysT, Please PARK the tractor, THEN try to use the laptop.

[boyst]

1 minute ago, #34fan said:

 

?

 

JboysT, Please PARK the tractor, THEN try to use the laptop.

Ha. Autocorrect. Bot

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, it's true.  I've posted a breakdown of QB drafted through the first 5 rounds using hard numeric criteria.  Search if you like.  Mid - Jan "QB Draft Results" or something like that.

Someone else did it by "TLAR" (that looks about right) and achieved similar results.

 

I didn't break out the top 2 picks in that one, just the top 5, so I'll do that here:

1998-2016 top 5 rounds 

Criteria: Completion %; YPA; TD/INT (chosen because they correlate to winning).  Same criteria used all 5 rounds

Pick #1,2: 19 QB.  Yes: 11/19, 58%.  Maybe: 3/18, 16%.  Yes + Maybe = 75%

Yes: Goff, Wentz, Winston, Mariota, Luck, Griffin (inj), Bradford(inj), Stafford,Alex Smith,Palmer, P. Manning (11)

Maybe (No by criteria, but most people would say Y): Newton, Eli Manning, McNabb (3)

No: Russell, Carr, Vick, Couch, Leaf (5)

 

Pick 1-5 50%

Pick 6-32 19%

2nd round: 20%

3rd round: 15%

4th round: 10%

5th round: no one really (AJ McCarron and Craig Nall, neither played more than 7 games)

 

You can debate names - maybe you score Newton and E. Manning "yes" and RGIII and Bradford "no" - doesn't change the conclusion.

 

 

I would put Vick in the maybe category.  He won three playoff games for the Falcons and had a fantastic 2010 year for the Eagles.  He also was selected to four pro bowls.  He's a hideous human being imo, but I consider everybody else on your no list a bust.