If You Ever Want a Top Rated QB Prospect...You Have to Suffer

[KDIGGZ]

9 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

If you listen to what he's said, he fully realizes the long term viability of the Bills as a perennial contender is reliant upon acquiring a legitimate starter at QB. 

Words only carry to much weight. Let's see action. Then I'll get behind them and agree that at least we are building towards something with a top QB on the team

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, kdiggz said:

Words only carry to much weight. Let's see action. Then I'll get behind them and agree that at least we are building towards something with a top QB on the team

 

He's not afraid to wheel and deal. We've already seen evidence of that and I have no doubt every effort will be made to acquire a QB they can build around. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

2 hours ago, Schmuggs said:

Nice comment. 

 

Why do you feel the need to attempt to bring down someone because he disagree with your weak opinion?

 

I suggest you control yourself and stop with the d-bag like attitude.   

 

Lets be cool and respectful. 

 

Thanks RWNW. 

 

 

 

Weak?  Lol.  Well this thread spiraled quickly.

 

 This whole idea came from caller to the radio station who didn’t want to part with draft picks and instead wanted to push it off another year getting a quarterback and what you have to realize is nothing will change next season .

 

 To get the top premier prospects in a draft that play the quarterback and if you target getting one you cannot bank on teams passing.  You either have to be awful and secure a very high pick or you are going to have to part with many assets to move up.  The times the best prospect (at the time, not what they eventually became) slid down the board do not usually get happen 

 

 The caller didn’t seem to factor in that he would have to sit through an awful season if you wanted to draft the top quarterback prospect.

 

good teams aren’t the teams that draft the top rated 1st round QBs.  They are 2-14 3-13 4-12.  Those are the teams.  Or they are the eagles who trade a boat load, get criticized and get their guy.

 

i exclude the Kapernicks and the Dalton’s and Wilson’s...all guys who were not the TOP Rated Prosepcts...

 

it seems there is a contingent that do not realize cost or a price has to be paid to secure such talent in the draft.

 

either cost of being awful on the field or the cost of moving already acquired parts/picks.

Edited February 24, 2018 by RalphWilson'sNewWar

[boyst]

24 minutes ago, T-Bomb said:

 

This thread was doing just fine until a couple wannabe forum mods showed up...

You've not been here long to realize that this Ford is mostly self moderated

[T-Bomb]

1 minute ago, Boyst62 said:

You've not been here long to realize that this Ford is mostly self moderated

 

Well, you can stop now because you suck at it

[John from Riverside]

20 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

Words only carry to much weight. Let's see action. Then I'll get behind them and agree that at least we are building towards something with a top QB on the team

You mean like making the playoffs for the first time in over a century in their first year.....stuff like that?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

10 minutes ago, T-Bomb said:

 

Well, you can stop now because you suck at it

No one is forcing you to read or respond.  

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, John from Hemet said:

You mean like making the playoffs for the first time in over a century in their first year.....stuff like that?

 

A century? Damn time files! 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

Every time I growl that I don't like .gifs, someone posts one that makes me LOL

This is great.

43 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

You've not been here long to realize that this Ford is mostly self moderated

 

Methinks you've spent too much time recently repairing your tractor

[Sweats]

Jesus Christ.....haven’t we suffered enough?

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, Sweats said:

Jesus Christ.....haven’t we suffered enough?

Lol, yes. Very true.

[pennstate10]

3 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

I feel this gets lost in the debate over Drafting QBs.

 

i only see it two ways into getting the top QB Talent (I should preface...agreed upon QB talent seeing as Manuel was the first QB taken, but no one believed in that class and we even traded down.)

 

You either have to...

 

1.)  Suffer by being an awful team the season before.

 

or

 

2.)  Suffer by sacrificing current players and draft capital to trade up in the draft.

 

 

 

So, this is a classic example of a false dichotomy.  Stating there are only two possible choices.  In reality, there is door #3.  Select an outstanding QB in the late first round or later.

 

You say this never happens?

 

Consider the 3 best QBs in the game today.  Brady, Brees, Rodgers.  6th rnd 2nd rnd, and 24th overall.

 

Does it take a bit of luck to hit on these guys?  Sure.  But its far from the impossibility that the OP posed.

[DanInUticaTampa]

With all the franchise QBs that are starting right now that were picked outside the top ten, saying we need to suffer is ridiculous. We missed on many franchise QBs in the past 5 years, and if we keep that thinking that we need to pick in the top 3 to draft franchise QBs, then we will miss on plenty more franchise QBs to come

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, pennstate10 said:

 

So, this is a classic example of a false dichotomy.  Stating there are only two possible choices.  In reality, there is door #3.  Select an outstanding QB in the late first round or later.

 

You say this never happens?

 

Consider the 3 best QBs in the game today.  Brady, Brees, Rodgers.  6th rnd 2nd rnd, and 24th overall.

 

Does it take a bit of luck to hit on these guys?  Sure.  But its far from the impossibility that the OP posed.

 

Just now, DanInUticaTampa said:

With all the franchise QBs that are starting right now that were picked outside the top ten, saying we need to suffer is ridiculous. We missed on many franchise QBs in the past 5 years, and if we keep that thinking that we need to pick in the top 3 to draft franchise QBs, then we will miss on plenty more franchise QBs to come

 

The premise is a fallacy. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

(...)

i exclude the Kapernicks and the Dalton’s and Wilson’s...all guys who were not the TOP Rated Prosepcts...

it seems there is a contingent that do not realize cost or a price has to be paid to secure such talent in the draft.

either cost of being awful on the field or the cost of moving already acquired parts/picks.

 

Ralph, please excuse me, but you're not making a lot of sense here.  Your OP was,  only " two ways into getting the top QB Talent" (suck or spend lots of picks). 

 

Now you're excluding all the talented QB who are "the Man" for their team, and acquired without suffering, and saying "see, you need to suffer!"  That's a bit tautological, no? (a statement that is true by necessity due to how it is defined)

 

If your point is, the best odds of a solid long-term starting QB are Pick 1 and 2 of the NFL Draft (something like 65-70%), then Sure! you're right, and you either get to those top 2 picks by sucking or by decimating your draft picks for 2-3 years (IF you have a trade partner)

 

But those aren't the only ways of acquiring a solid long term starting QB, right? 

Looking at the top 16 point - scoring teams last year (since scoring points what the QB there for) we have QB acquired by:

6th round, FA (former 32nd pick), Trade (next year: 10th pick), 11th pick, 18th pick, Trade/FA/32nd pick, 3rd round, #4 pick, 4th round, #3 pick, 4th round (next year: Trade).

And of course, 5 QB drafted with the top-2 picks in the draft.

 

Let's repeat: 5 teams who suffered, 2 additional teams who suffered slightly less but drafted in top 5, and 9 teams who took another route.

 

Conclusion: it is possible to land a top QB talent without suffering, the team simply has to set one's mind to it.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

20 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

 

So, this is a classic example of a false dichotomy.  Stating there are only two possible choices.  In reality, there is door #3.  Select an outstanding QB in the late first round or later.

 

You say this never happens?

 

Consider the 3 best QBs in the game today.  Brady, Brees, Rodgers.  6th rnd 2nd rnd, and 24th overall.

 

Does it take a bit of luck to hit on these guys?  Sure.  But its far from the impossibility that the OP posed.

2 out of your 3 were not considered Top Prospects going into the draft.

 

do you see what I’m saying?

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ralph, please excuse me, but you're not making a lot of sense here.  Your OP was,  only " two ways into getting the top QB Talent" (suck or spend lots of picks). 

 

Now you're excluding all the talented QB who are "the Man" for their team, and acquired without suffering, and saying "see, you need to suffer!"  That's a bit tautological, no? (a statement that is true by necessity due to how it is defined)

 

If your point is, the best odds of a solid long-term starting QB are Pick 1 and 2 of the NFL Draft (something like 65-70%), then Sure! you're right, and you either get to those top 2 picks by sucking or by decimating your draft picks for 2-3 years (IF you have a trade partner)

 

But those aren't the only ways of acquiring a solid long term starting QB, right? 

Looking at the top 16 point - scoring teams last year (since scoring points what the QB there for) we have QB acquired by:

6th round, FA (former 32nd pick), Trade (next year: 10th pick), 11th pick, 18th pick, Trade/FA/32nd pick, 3rd round, #4 pick, 4th round, #3 pick, 4th round (next year: Trade).

And of course, 5 QB drafted with the top-2 picks in the draft.

 

Let's repeat: 5 teams who suffered, 2 additional teams who suffered slightly less but drafted in top 5, and 9 teams who took another route.

 

Conclusion: it is possible to land a top QB talent without suffering, the team simply has to set one's mind to it.

 

 

Okay going to try one more time.

 

i am excluding QBs who are “the man” for their team now because they were not considered generally to be TOP PROSPECTS going into the draft.

 

how do I put this...don’t look at what happened.  Look at what was.

 

the only way to get Cam Newton was to be the worst team in the league the prior season or trade with Carolina.  Only way.

 

newton was the Top Prospect.  You couldn’t wait for him to slide or anything else.

 

if you tell me you don’t want to trade up for a QB this season.  The only way you are getting the TOP RATED College QBs in 2019 is being bad or trading 

 

being bad or trading.

 

the bills will not be 9-7 in 2018 and simply have the top QB Prospect fall to them.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

2 out of your 3 were not considered Top Prospects going into the draft.

 

do you see what I’m saying?

 

You switched the frame of the debate.  You may have meant "pre-draft Top Prospects".  But you said "only  two ways into getting the top QB Talent"

 

Top QB Talent /= "pre draft Top Prospect"

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

24 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 

The premise is a fallacy. 

Just look at the history the past.  My argument continues to get stronger and stronger.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Just look at the history the past.  My argument continues to get stronger and stronger.

 

Exactly the contrary. Your argument was weak to begin with and has been refuted by multiple examples in this very thread. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You switched the frame of the debate.  You may have meant "pre-draft Top Prospects".  But you said "only  two ways into getting the top QB Talent"

 

Top QB Talent /= "pre draft Top Prospect"

The title of the thread is Top Qb PROSPECT.

any prospect is pre-draft.

[pennstate10]

8 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

2 out of your 3 were not considered Top Prospects going into the draft.

 

do you see what I’m saying?

Okay going to try one more time.

 

i am excluding QBs who are “the man” for their team now because they were not considered generally to be TOP PROSPECTS going into the draft.

 

how do I put this...don’t look at what happened.  Look at what was.

 

the only way to get Cam Newton was to be the worst team in the league the prior season or trade with Carolina.  Only way.

 

newton was the Top Prospect.  You couldn’t wait for him to slide or anything else.

 

if you tell me you don’t want to trade up for a QB this season.  The only way you are getting the TOP RATED College QBs in 2019 is being bad or trading 

 

being bad or trading.

 

the bills will not be 9-7 in 2018 and simply have the top QB Prospect fall to them.

 

 

 

Actually, Brees and Rodgers were both considered top QB prospects.  Brees was the 2nd QB chosen.

 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Exactly the contrary. Your argument was weak to begin with and has been refuted by multiple examples in this very thread. 

Refuted by people who think Brady and Wilson and Brees were top prospects going into the draft.  All wrong.

 

as you are.

 

Btw you BEEBE May work with Reich in Indy? Relationshiiiiips.

 

tell ou what champ.  Beside not to debate me.  We don’t know each other but something about you should know...

 

i dont start a battle unless it’s already won on my end.

 

thats a free one sport. 

1 minute ago, pennstate10 said:

 

Actually, Brees and Rodgers were both considered top QB prospects.  Brees was the 2nd QB chosen.

 

In the 2nd round.  Doesn’t qualify.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Refuted by people who think Brady and Wilson and Brees were top prospects going into the draft.  All wrong.

 

as you are.

 

Btw you BEEBE May work with Reich in Indy? Relationshiiiiips.

 

tell ou what champ.  Beside not to debate me.  We don’t know each other but something about you should know...

 

i dont start a battle unless it’s already won on my end.

 

thats a free one sport. 

 

So you believe in what you post regardless of any real evidence to the contrary.  Nice to know. 

 

Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, and Carson Wentz all say hello. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

So you believe in what you post regardless of any real evidence to the contrary.  Nice to know. 

You want to go on record and say Brady and Wilson were top prospects?

 

you already want to say relationships don’t mean anything in the NFL.

and you further compound by saying the TOP QBs in the draft will simply fall to teams later in the draft.

 

lol.

what else do you want to roll out. First impressions.  Wow!

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

You want to go on record and say Brady and Wilson were top prospects?

 

you already want to say relationships don’t mean anything in the NFL.

and you further compound by saying the TOP QBs in the draft will simply fall to teams later in the draft.

 

lol.

what else do you want to roll out. First impressions.  Wow!

 

As I added: Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, and Carson Wentz all say hello. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

As I added: Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, and Carson Wentz all say hello. 

Wentz had to be traded for.

[pennstate10]

5 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Refuted by people who think Brady and Wilson and Brees were top prospects going into the draft.  All wrong.

 

as you are.

 

Btw you BEEBE May work with Reich in Indy? Relationshiiiiips.

 

tell ou what champ.  Beside not to debate me.  We don’t know each other but something about you should know...

 

i dont start a battle unless it’s already won on my end.

 

thats a free one sport. 

In the 2nd round.  Doesn’t qualify.

Gotcha.

2nd round draft picks dont count.

Not that I think Kiper is a great talent evaluator, but he has cultivated very good sources over the past 30 years.

Brees was the 2nd rated QB On Kipers big board in 2001.

Carry on...

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Wentz had to be traded for.

 

That doesn't support your point of suffering. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

2 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That doesn't support your point of suffering. 

Trading away a lot of assets to move up sounds like suffering to many fans around here.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Trading away a lot of assets to move up sounds like suffering to many fans around here.

 

I'm sure the Eagles and their fans are full of lament. Keep shifting. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I'm sure the Eagles and their fans are full of lament. Keep shifting. 

No shifting.  The whole thread was based on trading up or being bad   You just missed it.

[oldmanfan]

Prospects don't matter.  Performance once you're in the league does.  So the premise of the thread is kind of wacky.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

9 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

11 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

So you believe in what you post regardless of any real evidence to the contrary.  Nice to know. 

You want to go on record and say Brady and Wilson were top prospects?

 

you already want to say relationships don’t mean anything in the NFL.

and you further compound by saying the TOP QBs in the draft will simply fall to teams later in the draft.

 

lol.

what else do you want to roll out. First impressions.  Wow!

Funny the quoted coming from a guy who believes everything he says is 100 % w/o fallacy.  

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

No shifting.  The whole thread was based on trading up or being bad   You just missed it.

 

I didn't miss it I gave you Big Ben and Rodgers to refute your scenarios. 

[Happy]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I'm sure the Eagles and their fans are full of lament. Keep shifting. 

 

Just for argument's sake, what if Carson Wentz did not pan out?  How do you think Eagles fans would react...would the city of Philly still be standing?

If you're going to move up that much (which I am against), you better be completely positive of what you're getting, which is almost impossible if you subscribe to most QBs as being a crapshoot.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Just for argument's sake, what if Carson Wentz did not pan out?  How do you think Eagles fans would react...would the city of Philly still be standing?

If you're going to move up that much (which I am against), you better be completely positive of what you're getting, which is almost impossible if you subscribe to most QBs as being a crapshoot.

 

You can't make a shot you are too scared to take. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Just now, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Just for argument's sake, what if Carson Wentz did not pan out?  How do you think Eagles fans would react...would the city of Philly still be standing?

If you're going to move up that much (which I am against), you better be completely positive of what you're getting, which is almost impossible if you subscribe to most QBs as being a crapshoot.

How dare you use logic to win an argument!

[Happy]

3 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You can't make a shot you are too scared to take. 

 

Point taken.  Question: how do you view the Sammy Watkins trade up, was it worth it?  IMO, there is no difference, aside from position, between that and trading up for a QB.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Happy Gilmore

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Just now, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Point taken.  Question: how do you view the Sammy Watkins trade, was it worth it?  IMO, there is no difference, aside from position, between that trade and trading up for a QB.

They didn’t get their money’s worth imo.   

 

Sammy is good not great.  

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Happy Gilmore said:

Point taken.  Question: how do you view the Sammy Watkins trade, was it worth it?  IMO, there is no difference, aside from position, between that trade and trading up for a QB.

 

In hindsight it wasn't, but you are fully cognizant that the QB position is in a category all by itself at the NFL level. Gotta have one if you want long term viability.