If You Ever Want a Top Rated QB Prospect...You Have to Suffer

[Happy]

Just now, ShadyBillsFan said:

They didn’t get their money’s worth imo.   

 

Sammy is good not great.  

 

Exactly my point.  The same thing could happen by taking a QB by trading up and spending a lot of draft capital.  I hear both sides of the argument (take the shot vs sit back); the down side to taking the shot is you can have a lot of regret, and pain, going forward.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

The title of the thread is Top Qb PROSPECT.

any prospect is pre-draft.

 

Dude, what you write in the post also matters.  You wrote " "only  two ways into getting the top QB Talent"

Now you're re-defining, and avoiding any responsibility for any confusion about your meaning.

 

Feeling a little frustrated engaging with you because you don't seem to wish to acknowledge a point, but I'll try one more time. 

"Looking at the top 16 point - scoring teams last year (since scoring points what the QB there for) we have QB acquired by:

6th round, FA (former 32nd pick), Trade (next year: 10th pick), 11th pick, 18th pick, Trade/FA/32nd pick, 3rd round, #4 pick, 4th round, #3 pick, 4th round (next year: Trade).

And of course, 5 QB drafted with the top-2 picks in the draft.

 

FA (former 32nd pick) is Drew Brees.  His pre-draft e v a l said:

#15 QB Drew Brees, Purdue, 6-0/213/4.83
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2001
Projected Round: 1-2
Rated number 2 out of 28 QB's   - ie pre-draft, he was considered a top QB talent. Brees set all sorts of NCAA records.  The only reason he fell was because he's short.

 

3rd round is Russ Wilson.  His pre-draft e v a l said:

"Wilson is a stellar passer who shows arm strength and accuracy when he is able to deliver the ball without a hitch. ... he has outstanding football intelligence as he picked up the Wisconsin offense in a short time and was the opening-day starter".  He was the top performer in 3 tests at the combine.  Again, he was recognized pre draft as a top talent, who fell because of his height.

 

Trade is Alex Smith, a former #1 overall pick- in other words a pre-draft recognized top talent who was not acquired via your false dichotomy.  Next year he'll be "the Man" for his 3rd team, which again will get him by trade.

 

11th pick is Ben Roethlisberger.  There was a lot of debate between him, Rivers, and Eli Manning pre-draft, with many expecting Ben to be taken #2 overall.  ie pre-draft, he was considered a top QB talent and fell because of concerns over the size of his school/level of competition

 

We can argue about Flacco, but again, many considered him pre-draft to be the #2 QB in the draft (Kiper and Mayock, others) ahead of Henne and Brohm, who fell to #18 pick because of a short track record (Senior year) and a small school with concerns about the level of competition.

 

Now we get to another trade by the Vikes for Sam Bradford, another #1 pick in the draft in otherwords a pre-draft recognized top talent

 

So at least 7 of the 11 QB who were not acquired by the team they're starting for with top picks, were recognized pre-draft as top talents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

In hindsight it wasn't, but you are fully cognizant that the QB position is in a category all by itself at the NFL level. Gotta have one if you want long term viability. 

 

I agree that you need a franchise QB to have long term viability; we as Bills fans know that all too well after about 22 years.  I'm just not sold that betting the house is the way to go since it is such a huge gamble and we have a lot of other positions to strengthen.  I don't envy Beane and McDermott - tough spot to be in.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

26 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Refuted by people who think Brady and Wilson and Brees were top prospects going into the draft.  All wrong.

 

Where Wilson and Brees are concerned, not wrong.  Look it up.  Brady is..... interesting. 

 

26 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

tell ou what champ.  Beside not to debate me.  We don’t know each other but something about you should know...

i dont start a battle unless it’s already won on my end.

thats a free one sport.

 

 

Now that speaks volumes.  In other words, don't bother trying to engage in any sort of debate....your mind is made up, "you've won" ahead of time.

Sounds like you're a legend in your own mind.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I agree that you need a franchise QB to have long term viability; we as Bills fans know that all too well after about 22 years.  I'm just not sold that betting the house is the way to go since it is such a huge gamble and we have a lot of other positions to strengthen.  I don't envy Beane and McDermott - tough spot to be in.

 

It is, but hey that's why they get paid the big bucks.  They have to get this right. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

8 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Exactly my point.  The same thing could happen by taking a QB by trading up and spending a lot of draft capital.  I hear both sides of the argument (take the shot vs sit back); the down side to taking the shot is you can have a lot of regret, and pain, going forward.

Beyond a handful of players the draft is a crapshoot and always has been.  

 

The QB position is the toughest of them all especially with the way they breed non NFL QBs these days.  

 

The odds of getting the one good guy is not favorable. So to take a major risk is a gamble.  

Edited February 25, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Where Wilson and Brees are concerned, not wrong.  Look it up.  Brady is..... interesting. 

 

 

 

Now that speaks volumes.  In other words, don't bother trying to engage in any sort of debate....your mind is made up, "you've won" ahead of time.

Sounds like you're a legend in your own mind.

 

by arguing against my point...people are basically saying that you can Get the TOP PRE DRAFT QB PROSPECTS by being good the season before and then just sitting pat until there turn in the draft.

 

that is saying Minnesota cam just stay put and wait for Darnold or Allen to go to them.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

A top prospect is a guarantee of nothing!!!!!

 

[Happy]

Just now, ShadyBillsFan said:

Beyond a handful of players the draft is a crapshoot and always has been.  

 

The QB position is the toughest of them all especially with the way they breed non NFL QBs these days.  

 

Yes, that it is.  With pure pocket passers being in the minority coming out of college, and people talking about spending outrageous amounts of money on QBs like Kirk Cousins, you have to wonder at what point are NFL offenses going to change and reflect more of a college style offense?  Having a spread offense leaning QB running a WC offense just doesn't work, but that doesn't stop some OCs from trying (Dennison).  At some point NFL coaches and OCs are going to have to change the way they run an offense.

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

3 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

A top prospect is a guarantee of nothing!!!!!

 

 

True.  But if you want one there are only certain ways to do it.  Be bad or trade up.

 

the only way for sabres to get a top 2 Pick for Eichel was to be the worst team.

 

the only way for Indy to draft Luck or Panthers to draft Newton or Indy to draft Manning was to be the worst

 

the only way for falcons to draft Ryan or get giants to draft manning or chargers to draft rivers or rams to draft Goff was to SUFFER through a bad season.

 

the only way for Washington to draft RG3 or Eagles to draft Wentz or Bears Trubisky was to Trade

 

 

the goal is to draft the best prospect not the player who will be the best in the nfl because you can’t know the future but you can judge and rank the prosepcts in the present.

Edited February 25, 2018 by RalphWilson'sNewWar

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Just for argument's sake, what if Carson Wentz did not pan out?  How do you think Eagles fans would react...would the city of Philly still be standing?

If you're going to move up that much (which I am against), you better be completely positive of what you're getting, which is almost impossible if you subscribe to most QBs as being a crapshoot.

 

I think the City of Philly would be just fine...the way the Eagles were constructing themselves, if Wentz had needed more time, they had Bradford resigned there as a capable starting QB who led the Eagles to the #13 offense in 2015.  If he succumbed to his own fragility and Wentz wasn't ready, they were prepared to give Chase Daniels a shot (he's better than most people think, which isn't a high bar admittedly).  Meanwhile they were getting stronger at other positions and preparing to bolster up the 2015 roster with better defense (moved from #28 to #12).  I think they arguably might have had a somewhat better record if they'd started Bradford instead of Wentz in 2016.  The fans would have been soothed by the thought of improvement, and maybe a WC shot.

 

The Iggles are my poster child for a team that went "All In!" to land a QB and had it pay off.

[Happy]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the City of Philly would be just fine...the way the Eagles were constructing themselves, if Wentz had needed more time, they had Bradford resigned there as a capable starting QB who led the Eagles to the #13 offense in 2015.  If he succumbed to his own fragility and Wentz wasn't ready, they were prepared to give Chase Daniels a shot (he's better than most people think, which isn't a high bar admittedly).  Meanwhile they were getting stronger at other positions and preparing to bolster up the 2015 roster with better defense (moved from #28 to #12).  I think they arguably might have had a somewhat better record if they'd started Bradford instead of Wentz in 2016.  The fans would have been soothed by the thought of improvement, and maybe a WC shot.

 

The Iggles are my poster child for a team that went "All In!" to land a QB and had it pay off.

 

Yes, it worked out for the Eagles.  The same can be said for the Patriots where it worked out with Brady.  Both cases, IMO, were pretty lucky.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

by arguing against my point...people are basically saying that you can Get the TOP PRE DRAFT QB PROSPECTS by being good the season before and then just sitting pat until there turn in the draft.

 

that is saying Minnesota cam just stay put and wait for Darnold or Allen to go to them.

 

People are arguing against a reasonable interpretation of the words you wrote in your post.

You might consider that. 

 

You wrote " i only see it two ways into getting the top QB Talent " Now apparently what you MEANT was "I only see two ways of drafting a QB who is rated as  top talent pre-draft", in which case your take is closer to accurate (I would argue still three - be bad, trade up, or have him fall for some reason). 

 

But that's not what you actually wrote.

 

What are you trying to accomplish here exactly?

Edited February 25, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Yes, it worked out for the Eagles.  The same can be said for the Patriots where it worked out with Brady.  Both cases, IMO, were pretty lucky.

 

I can't deny that luck played a role, but can you deny that to some extent, by the actions they took, both teams "made their own luck"?

 

The Eagles had a functional QB, but they didn't like what they saw as his ceiling so they traded to upgrade.

Then they had a better pocket passing QB (Bradford) but they still wanted better, so when they liked Wentz they decided to go get him.  But they knew he wasn't a sure bet or certain to be ready, so they re-signed Bradford AND added a backup.  Belt, suspenders, and tailoring on their pants.

 

The Patriots had Bledsoe and 2 other QB on the roster.  They liked Brady, but they had a lot of holes.  But when he was still there in the 6th, they didn't say "can't do it-got too many QB!" they seized the day, drafted him, then kept 4 QB on the roster that year.

 

They were lucky in that the opportunities were there, but they also planned well to identify the opportunity and were willing to take a shot and seize it.

 

[MRW]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

People are arguing against a reasonable interpretation of the words you wrote in your post.

You might consider that. 

 

You wrote " i only see it two ways into getting the top QB Talent " Now apparently what you MEANT was "I only see two ways of drafting a QB who is rated as  top talent pre-draft", in which case your take is closer to accurate (I would argue still three - be bad, trade up, or have him fall for some reason). 

 

But that's not what you actually wrote.

 

What are you trying to accomplish here exactly?

 

Yes, it seems like "top QB prospect" is defined as "QB who is expected to be picked high in the draft".  In which case, the argument is mostly correct, but pointless.

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I can't deny that luck played a role, but can you deny that to some extent, by the actions they took, both teams "made their own luck"?

 

The Eagles had a functional QB, but they didn't like what they saw as his ceiling so they traded to upgrade.

Then they had a better pocket passing QB (Bradford) but they still wanted better, so when they liked Wentz they decided to go get him.  But they knew he wasn't a sure bet or certain to be ready, so they re-signed Bradford AND added a backup.  Belt, suspenders, and tailoring on their pants.

 

The Patriots had Bledsoe and 2 other QB on the roster.  They liked Brady, but they had a lot of holes.  But when he was still there in the 6th, they didn't say "can't do it-got too many QB!" they seized the day, drafted him, then kept 4 QB on the roster that year.

 

They were lucky in that the opportunities were there, but they also planned well to identify the opportunity and were willing to take a shot and seize it.

 

 

I'll agree that the Eagles made their own luck, as you put it.  They liked what they saw in Wentz and went all in to get him...and it worked out.

The Patriots with Brady, that was lightening in a bottle.  They may have thought there was enough value to take a flyer on Brady, but there was no way they planned on a 6th round draft pick to become one of the greatest in his era.

Either way, I hope Beane, McD and company see something in one of the QBs this year to take a shot with expectations being better than average he pans out.  And ideally they won't have to spend a lot of draft capital to do so.

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

36 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

People are arguing against a reasonable interpretation of the words you wrote in your post.

You might consider that. 

 

You wrote " i only see it two ways into getting the top QB Talent " Now apparently what you MEANT was "I only see two ways of drafting a QB who is rated as  top talent pre-draft", in which case your take is closer to accurate (I would argue still three - be bad, trade up, or have him fall for some reason). 

 

But that's not what you actually wrote.

 

What are you trying to accomplish here exactly?

 

The post  was in response to radio call who said we needed to wait until next season to draft a quarterback and my pointing out that you’ll be in the same situation next season unless you’re willing to again either be a bad team or trade up.

 

  But apparently reading comprehension is an issue around here and perhaps I picked the wrong spot to post these things.

 

  The title of the post leads the thought and the body of the text follows it if you can’t put together that the title is what I’m talking about when you need it spelled out A second time I can’t help that.  I can edit it, But I think it’s probably better you just never read what I write again and never respond anything about again that’s probably the best and save me the headache of having to deal with this type of responses that don’t understand itBut I think it’s probably better you just never read what I write again and never respond anything about again that’s probably the best and save me the headache of having to deal with this type of responses that don’t understand it

21 minutes ago, MRW said:

 

Yes, it seems like "top QB prospect" is defined as "QB who is expected to be picked high in the draft".  In which case, the argument is mostly correct, but pointless.

 

Not pointless at all.  Probably the basis for the most important decision the sabres ever made and the type of decision teams in the nfl need to make to secure the top picks to land the best talent.

[row_33]

Give a class assignment to 10 year olds and have them with perfect hindsight and google tell you the best way to get a franchise QB

 

doing it in real time and without hindsight or taking back your moves is all that matters

 

 

[xRUSHx]

I have said this all along, if you want to take two steps forward you will have to take a step back first. Suffer I don't think so, not as good for one season to make the next season better yes IMO.

[Wily Dog]

26 minutes ago, row_33 said:

Give a class assignment to 10 year olds and have them with perfect hindsight and google tell you the best way to get a franchise QB

 

doing it in real time and without hindsight or taking back your moves is all that matters

 

 

I think McD/Beane will sift the QB market and choose one. We  should hope they choose right but ,  we have to realize that picking a QB is not an exact science and we may have to go to the well more than once. The trouble with the Bill's has been not going to the well often enough.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

46 minutes ago, Wily Dog said:

I think McD/Beane will sift the QB market and choose one. We  should hope they choose right but ,  we have to realize that picking a QB is not an exact science and we may have to go to the well more than once. The trouble with the Bill's has been not going to the well often enough.

 

Exactly.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

OP is spot on. Interesting way to put it.

 

We somehow broke our playoff curse. Now let’s get our QB and be a perennial contender. Nothing closes the gap faster than a top end QB and there’s two available this year that we can go get.

 

I’m willing to sacrifice some draft capital to force the issue. It’s been 22 years since our last Franchise QB retired. I’m not willing to wait another year and hope a QB magically falls into our lap.

[sleeby]

A rookie QB here will not likely be good right off - we're not ready for him.  I say we get the best we can at or near round 20 and also start fixing the other needs.  Do we really want to duplicate the colts last few years?  

 

l think many Bills fans are the usual over optimistic as to next year.  We ended the streak by a nose hair and are not two or three key pieces from an AFC championship game appearance right yet.  On offense alone we need OL, QB, WRs (maybe several) and a backup RB.  We all know how we felt in week 16 when shady was punching the turf in pain - it was all over without him. . .an offense with a depth of one guy.  Adding a rookie QB is going to take at least a couple of years to gel. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by sleeby

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

In a vacuum the statment is accurate that top prospect QBs are picked early and the only sure way to get an early pick is to be lousy, like Cleveland bad...

 

however top prospect QBs are not the only path nor a certain path to success.

 

and the list of elite QBs not picked in the first five or so picks is long and distinguished..

 

In fact Elway is the last top 5 pick to win a Super Bowl not named Manning, so in 18 years, only two top 5 picks won. The rest, 6th rd, 3rd round, second round our bottom half of first round. 

 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

21 minutes ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

OP is spot on. Interesting way to put it.

 

We somehow broke our playoff curse. Now let’s get our QB and be a perennial contender. Nothing closes the gap faster than a top end QB and there’s two available this year that we can go get.

 

I’m willing to sacrifice some draft capital to force the issue. It’s been 22 years since our last Franchise QB retired. I’m not willing to wait another year and hope a QB magically falls into our lap.

 

The Bills can stay at 21/22 and draft Jackson or Rudolph and they might become HOF, but they wouldn’t be considered the Top Prospects this Draft at the time of the draft.

 

that is what this exercise is all about.  The suffering a team needs to go through to secure the position for the top prospects.

 

so when that guy said “wait” he is putting himself in literally Catch 22.  He doesn’t want to trade and he doesn’t want to be bad but he still wants buffalo to get the top qbs in the draft next season.

 

amd funny I’m not even saying you should suffer for the top guy, but if you want the top prospects you Re going to have to.  In one form or another.

 

greatness isn’t free.

Edited February 25, 2018 by RalphWilson'sNewWar

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

18 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

 

Wilson wasn’t what I would deem a TOP Prospect in that Draft.

and The Eagles gave up picks and Players which many in our fan base can’t even bring themselves to want to do.

 

i do agree though we haven’t really suffered enough,

 

 

Nice spin. The poster you quoted clearly stated the Bills haven't tried hard enough to get a good QB. He gave three examples of teams that tried hard without tanking. 

 

Both the Eagles and Rams acquired their franchise QBs 1 and 2 without having to tank. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Nice spin. The poster you quoted clearly stated the Bills haven't tried hard enough to get a good QB. He gave three examples of teams that tried hard without tanking. 

 

Both the Eagles and Rams acquired their franchise QBs 1 and 2 without having to tank. 

 

Ummm...lol...you really didn’t read the OP did you.  Didn’t think so.

 

buuuuuut.  Trading away multiple picks also fell under suffering.

 

and listening to enough fans and some media...trading up seems to be suffering in many people’s eyes.

 

anyhing else? Or maybe you should go have a coffee and wake up?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

15 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Refuted by people who think Brady and Wilson and Brees were top prospects going into the draft.  All wrong.

 

What does that even matter? Josh Allen is considered by some to be the top prospect in this draft? Yet most of us will put our remote through the TV if we pick him in the first round. The only thing that matters is if they end up being good in the NFL and if our scouts and GM were able to recognize their potential and spend a draft pick on them.

 

I think our biggest problem since Kelly retired is that we hold onto bad to average QBs too long. JP, Edwards, Fitz, Taylor all were given multiple seasons to develop. The plug should have been pulled  on these guys immediately. EJ was the only one really who was pulled quickly thanks to Marrone. But we didn't really have a back up with potential. That is where repeatedly trying comes into play and the Bills just don't try hard enough as others have said. 

1 minute ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

 

Ummm...lol...you really didn’t read the OP did you.  Didn’t think so.

 

buuuuuut.  Trading away multiple picks also fell under suffering.

 

and listening to enough fans and some media...trading up seems to be suffering in many people’s eyes.

 

anyhing else? Or maybe you should go have a coffee and wake up?

Your OP is wrong then. Trading away multiple picks is not suffering. You only suffer when you finish 1-15, 3-13. It is completely possible to trade away player and picks and not finish 3-13. Trading away picks and players in no way automatically equals suffering. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

11 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

What does that even matter? Josh Allen is considered by some to be the top prospect in this draft? Yet most of us will put our remote through the TV if we pick him in the first round. The only thing that matters is if they end up being good in the NFL and if our scouts and GM were able to recognize their potential and spend a draft pick on them.

 

I think our biggest problem since Kelly retired is that we hold onto bad to average QBs too long. JP, Edwards, Fitz, Taylor all were given multiple seasons to develop. The plug should have been pulled  on these guys immediately. EJ was the only one really who was pulled quickly thanks to Marrone. But we didn't really have a back up with potential. That is where repeatedly trying comes into play and the Bills just don't try hard enough as others have said. 

Your OP is wrong then. Trading away multiple picks is not suffering. You only suffer when you finish 1-15, 3-13. It is completely possible to trade away player and picks and not finish 3-13. Trading away picks and players in no way automatically equals suffering. 

 

I actually happen to agree that I don’t consider trading away many things as suffering...however judging from the unwillingness to do it from many media outlets around WNY I would say many fans consider it as a form of suffering.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

How are top prospects Mariota and Winston doing?

 

One of them just got a new HC because  he wasn’t developing fast enough.    

 

The other also isn’t living up to expectations.  

 

Instead of just saying the OP is wrong  cite specific names to bolster your argument.  

Edited February 25, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan

[sleeby]

Trading up is too high a cost for a team with so many holes.  It will mean suffering - as in N8 P's first half of NFL suffering.  That kid was terrorized out there and should have been sacked all day long but rather panicked and threw dumb ints.  The throws he did make were often inexplicably dropped by his mates. 

 

Giving it all up for a top QB in this draft will mean another rookie qb's sufferage for us to watch.  Then when he chooses to run the ball repeatedly (fight or flight) many here will be upset about that.  Ha.  Much suffering I see.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Point taken.  Question: how do you view the Sammy Watkins trade up, was it worth it?  IMO, there is no difference, aside from position, between that and trading up for a QB.

 

The position is a major difference.  Every team needs a premier QB.  If you're seeking one, and there's ONE who you feel has all the pieces including durability (not one of four, each with different risks), it's worth taking your shot almost regardless of the cost.  As others have said, you fail at 100% of the shots you don't take.

 

There is one QB with significant playing time on every team, college and pro.  That means there are a limited number of QB who have the skill set and play against a high enough level of competition that they're candidates for a trade-up.  In contrast, there are 4-6x as many WR, and their performance is even more strongly affected by the offense they're in, the skill of their QB, and the level of competition they face, making evaluation even more uncertain.

The position is the reason I was against the Sammy trade up (even though I thought I understood the rationale), and the reason I am for a QB trade-up (for the right QB, the one that they see as the full package, not '1 of 4 guys')

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

25 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

How are top prospects Mariota and Winston doing?

 

One of them just got a new HC because  he wasn’t developing fast enough.    

 

The other also isn’t living up to expectations.  

 

Instead of just saying the OP is wrong  cite specific names to bolster your argument.  

 

...realistically though bud, how many top prospects (let's define that as 1st rounders) have actually performed to expectations in the last decade+?.......Rodgers, Smith, Ryan, Bradford (pre-injuries), Stafford (possibly), Luck (pre-injury) come to mind initially (apologize if I missed someone).....IMO. "performing to and/or exceeding expectations" is the exception versus the rule.....look at the list of those well below expectations or out of football....and some of those "well below" guys are still extorting a paycheck because of desperation...Jesus, a Jugs machine draped with a uniform in the backfield would be a helluva lot better than some of those extortionists......thus, I'm not in favor of moving up and investing major draft capital in ONE player who joins your club "as is where is, no warranty expressed or implied" as well as "NO money back or draft capital return guarantees"......

[DanInUticaTampa]

16 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

2 out of your 3 were not considered Top Prospects going into the draft.

 

do you see what I’m saying?

Okay going to try one more time.

 

i am excluding QBs who are “the man” for their team now because they were not considered generally to be TOP PROSPECTS going into the draft.

 

how do I put this...don’t look at what happened.  Look at what was.

 

the only way to get Cam Newton was to be the worst team in the league the prior season or trade with Carolina.  Only way.

 

newton was the Top Prospect.  You couldn’t wait for him to slide or anything else.

 

if you tell me you don’t want to trade up for a QB this season.  The only way you are getting the TOP RATED College QBs in 2019 is being bad or trading 

 

being bad or trading.

 

the bills will not be 9-7 in 2018 and simply have the top QB Prospect fall to them.

 

 

 

The goal is not to get a "top prospect". The goal is to get a successful NFL qb. The idea that you need a top prospect to get a franchise qb is ridiculous

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I think our biggest problem since Kelly retired is that we hold onto bad to average QBs too long. JP, Edwards, Fitz, Taylor all were given multiple seasons to develop. The plug should have been pulled  on these guys immediately. EJ was the only one really who was pulled quickly thanks to Marrone. But we didn't really have a back up with potential. That is where repeatedly trying comes into play and the Bills just don't try hard enough as others have said. 

 

This is exactly right.  Hmmmm, maybe not "pulled on those guys immediately".  But we needed to be more aggressive in exploring other options and having a plan to give them more time to develop if needed. 

 

We tend to put all our eggs in one QB basket, instead of keeping our options open.

 

Losman was drafted in 2004 and sat a year.  Badlands Meanie (I think) posted about attending a Bills open training camp practice and seeing flaws that indicated Losman was just not ready to go yet.  But, we started him anyway.  Why?  Because our alternative was a 32 year old career backup with a recent average of 180 ypg and career almost as many INT as TD.  Instead, we could have kept Bledsoe for one more year and looked at giving him the pieces to recover his 2002 form, which he fundamentally did in Dallas with better WR and OL.   He almost took us to the playoffs in 2004!  One Game!   I'm gonna guess we were "cheaping it" .  Then the Bills only further investment in QB being a 3rd round pick, Trent Edwards in 2007.  Why not position ourselves to take a shot at a 3-4 rd QB in 2005/6?  Or look for a better alternative as a FA or trade?

 

Then we stayed with Edwards for 4 years, with NO further investment in QB except a minor trade for a backup, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and a practice squad signing (Brian Brohm)

 

You don't want to pull the plug on a guy prematurely.  But until you have a franchise guy and  a solid backup, you simply just sit on your cards for 3-4 years.  Serial minimalism is a sure recipe for being "a day late and a dollar short"

 

 

Quote

Your OP is wrong then. Trading away multiple picks is not suffering. You only suffer when you finish 1-15, 3-13. It is completely possible to trade away player and picks and not finish 3-13. Trading away picks and players in no way automatically equals suffering. 

 

This.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

17 minutes ago, DanInUticaTampa said:

 

The goal is not to get a "top prospect". The goal is to get a successful NFL qb. The idea that you need a top prospect to get a franchise qb is ridiculous

 

The goal is absolutely to draft the top prospects in any draft.  And the only thing any professional franchise can attempt to control is their access to the most available top prospects in their drafts.  And the higher up you are the more picks are left on the board.  And you only get their by suffering.

 

now buffalo choose to not suffer on the field.  A solid 4-12 season would have been sufficient...but...a missed call here, a missed field goal their and Miami’s 4th string QB and they are 9-7...

so now if they want cream of the crop QB Prospect they will suffer in another way by forgoing their draft capital to move up.

Edited February 25, 2018 by RalphWilson'sNewWar

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, DanInUticaTampa said:

 

The goal is not to get a "top prospect". The goal is to get a successful NFL qb. The idea that you need a top prospect to get a franchise qb is ridiculous

 

The top 2 picks of the draft are where the odds of getting a franchise QB are highest.  But a significant number of teams do manage to put competent QB play on the field without going there, whether by taking enough shots later in the draft that they find someone (Patriots) or by waiting until someone else's shots hit paydirt (SF, Cousins FA), or by incremental improvement (Eagles) that allow them to both have a backup plan(s) to hedge against failure or to recoup some of their investment if things work out.

 

20 minutes ago, DanInUticaTampa said:

The goal is not to get a "top prospect". The goal is to get a successful NFL qb. The idea that you need a top prospect to get a franchise qb is ridiculous

 

Just keep in mind you're talking to someone who has self announced that he "never gets in a fight he won't win".  This probably means he's a legend in his own mind, and completely invested in maintaining his position (so he can "win") no matter what arguments or evidence is presented to counter his position.

7 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

 

The goal is absolutely to draft the top prospects in any draft.  And the only thing any professional franchise can attempt to control is their access to the most available top prospects in their drafts.  And the higher up you are the more picks are left on the board.  And you only get their by suffering.

 

I see.  Thank you for clearing that up.  Of course, the fact that you've retrospectively limited the "top prospects before the draft" to "guys actually drafted at the top of the class", and limited top QB to "top prospects who were actually drafted at the top of the class" does effectively "prove" your tautological conclusion.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The top 2 picks of the draft are where the odds of getting a franchise QB are highest.  But a significant number of teams do manage to put competent QB play on the field without going there, whether by taking enough shots later in the draft that they find someone (Patriots) or by waiting until someone else's shots hit paydirt (SF, Cousins FA), or by incremental improvement (Eagles) that allow them to both have a backup plan(s) to hedge against failure or to recoup some of their investment if things work out.

 

 

Just keep in mind you're talking to someone who has self announced that he "never gets in a fight he won't win".  This probably means he's a legend in his own mind, and completely invested in maintaining his position (so he can "win") no matter what arguments or evidence is presented to counter his position.

 

I see.  Thank you for clearing that up.  Of course, the fact that you've retrospectively limited the "top prospects before the draft" to "guys actually drafted at the top of the class", and limited top QB to "top prospects who were actually drafted at the top of the class" does effectively "prove" your tautological conclusion.

 

It is too bad we couldn’t find common ground.

 

tell you what since you seem to believe the opposite...you send me a message when Darnold or Allen or mayfield are drafted by the Vikings simply sitting at 30.  I won’t hold my breath 

 

I will be busy watching the draft and seeing teams trade up /pay the price / “Suffer” to move up and acquire that top talent and not wait or I will see teams that “suffered” in 2017 by being bad select that top talent.

 

but I promise...I will keep one eye open for your text on Darnold to the Vikings.

[Thurman#1]

22 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

I feel this gets lost in the debate over Drafting QBs.

 

i only see it two ways into getting the top QB Talent (I should preface...agreed upon QB talent seeing as Manuel was the first QB taken, but no one believed in that class and we even traded down.)

 

You either have to...

 

1.)  Suffer by being an awful team the season before.

 

or

 

2.)  Suffer by sacrificing current players and draft capital to trade up in the draft.

 

Those are the only two options as I see it reason I’ve been thinking about this was a gentleman called up John Murphy show past week and said to John and Donald we need to wait on draft a QB “do it next season “and I was sitting listening to him and I wanted to ask that caller “sir do you realize to do it next season you’re going to have to sign up for being an awful team in 2018 or you’re going to have to trade all of your draft picks away which is what you don’t want to do this season and I believe that fans who don’t want to trade up also don’t want to be bad either.

and Buffalo seems stuck in this never ending loop.

 

Keep Tyrod until you find some better.  Well there will never be anyone in FA Better, because why would they be available if they were better.  And no rookie is going to come in immediately and you can say 100% They are better immediately.  Again stuck in a loop.

 

stuck in a loop and unwilling to pay the price.

 

 

Pass on the keep Tyrod part. Bring in an FA QB who fits the system so everyone can work in the system they want to run, not to mention because $23 mill in cap for one year of Tyrod (yup, there'll be dead money after he leaves next year if he is on the roster in 2018) is insane.

 

But other than that, yeah, you have to suffer some pain to get a highly ranked guy.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Trading away multiple picks is not suffering. You only suffer when you finish 1-15, 3-13. It is completely possible to trade away player and picks and not finish 3-13. Trading away picks and players in no way automatically equals suffering. 

 

 

I think you're confusing suffering and future suffering, at least in the sense he was referring to. Sure trading away picks is suffering. It means you can't pick some  guys you'd absolutely love to get. In the same way that spending a lot of money when you have a very limited supply is suffering, so is trading away a bunch of picks. The pain of sacrifice.

 

But yeah, of course you're right that sometimes trading away those picks makes you happy in the long run, same as spending a lot of money might buy you something you end up really happy with.

 

This thread appears to have gotten a little wacky but his OP is correct. Yeah, you gotta suffer one way or the other if you want to get a highly ranked QB. And getting one of those guys is the best way to maximize your chances of getting a very good QB. It's not the only way, but it's certainly the best chance.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Thurman#1

[baskingridgebillsfan]

this year is a great example to prove the contrary .  If the Bills use their draft capitol to move up and get a qb they would have a cheap ab with cap space to fill a bunch of holes with solid players.  

If they buy a qb they have 5 premium draft picks.  it doesn't have to be one or the other