Jackson, Rudolph or Pass

[Mat68]

I would trade up.  They didnt want Watson cant imagine they are high on Jackson.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

People saying Jackson needs to find another position are delusional. He has excellent pocket awareness, knows how and when to step up, has a big arm, sees the field, can read a defence and can absolutely go through progressions. He threw for like 3,700 yards last year while running for 1600.. As has been mentioned, adjusted for drops his comp % is higher than Darnold's. He's the #1 prospect IMO and 100% a QB.

He has a mechanical issue pushing off his front rather than his back foot that causes his ball to sail at times. But that's it and it will be corrected. It's not the kind of flaw that's hard to iron out. Darnold's throwing motion definitely is hard to correct and is much more serious. They tried unsuccessfully to coach it out of him. It's a big problem. 

Kiper and Cowerd don't have Jackson in their first round mock. That's ludicrous. He is more likely to be the first player off the board than to he is to drop out of round #1.

Good post. I agree with your assessment of him that he has exhibited the traits necessary to be a pro qb. It's a question whether he can work on the details of his mechanics so that they will be more consistent and natural when he plays . His improvement over the past two years is evident. He is moving from one side of the spectrum of being an athletic qb to the other side of the specturm of being a more refined qb. He's certainly has a way to go but his trajectory is upwards. 

 

There are qbs in this draft who will be more ready to play sooner. But that is not to say that although he has a unique style of play in a few years he will be as effective as any qb in this draft class. 

[Kelly the Dog]

I chose Jackson. All of these guys are boom or bust. His upside is higher than Rudolph. Last year, watching Jackson I thought he was likely never to be good enough to be an NFL QB even though he was the best player in college. This year, he made a quantum leap. He wasn't even the best player in college, Mayfield was, but if he makes the same type of leap this year's off season as he did last year, he will have a very good chance of being a solid NFL starter if not star. He's got tremendous talent.

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

I just want to get on record saying Jackson is gonna be a bust, big time.

[die hard bills fan]

would not do either, would trade up for one of the others as feel that we have both these types of qb on out tearm already. jackson is too much like tyrod taylor and rudolph is like peterman - student of the game but suspect arm.

[Rubes]

I don't know anything about Rudolph, so I checked out his 2017 highlight reel. Of course it's only highlights, but some of the throws there were really quite good, and I didn't see anything to suggest he doesn't have a strong arm. But that's all I've seen of him.

[LeGOATski]

Another thing I like about Rudolph is that he took control of that offense his senior year. Made his own changes at the line.

[Kelly the Dog]

20 minutes ago, Rubes said:

I don't know anything about Rudolph, so I checked out his 2017 highlight reel. Of course it's only highlights, but some of the throws there were really quite good, and I didn't see anything to suggest he doesn't have a strong arm. But that's all I've seen of him.

I'm a huge proponent of arm strength being essential. Maybe more than anyone here. I watched Rudolph several times this year and I don't think arm strength is an issue at all. He can make every throw. Not a cannon of course, but I don't personally think it's an issue and I would be the first to worry about that.

[LABILLBACKER]

32 minutes ago, Rubes said:

I don't know anything about Rudolph, so I checked out his 2017 highlight reel. Of course it's only highlights, but some of the throws there were really quite good, and I didn't see anything to suggest he doesn't have a strong arm. But that's all I've seen of him.

He does have a strong arm and he actually throws the deep ball very well. It wouldn't surprise me if his velo is around 55 at the combine. 

[Rubes]

26 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I'm a huge proponent of arm strength being essential. Maybe more than anyone here. I watched Rudolph several times this year and I don't think arm strength is an issue at all. He can make every throw. Not a cannon of course, but I don't personally think it's an issue and I would be the first to worry about that.

 

Another thing I noticed (from the highlight reel, of course), is that he seems to do a really nice job when under pressure, always looking for the open receiver and eventually finding him. Doesn't seem to have a quick trigger to run...but when he does, he actually moves reasonably well.

[Mat68]

Comes down to how hard of a worker Jackson is.  His biggest comparison is to Vick.  If he has that ability but is a worker you are onto something.  Its rare that someone with that talent will also be the hardest worker.  Maybe Buffalo gets him at 21 and he plays the rest of his career with that Randy Moss sized chip on his shoulder.  Again imo if they passed on Watson idk how high they woukd be on him.

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Comes down to how hard of a worker Jackson is.  His biggest comparison is to Vick.  If he has that ability but is a worker you are onto something.  Its rare that someone with that talent will also be the hardest worker.  Maybe Buffalo gets him at 21 and he plays the rest of his career with that Randy Moss sized chip on his shoulder.  Again imo if they passed on Watson idk how high they woukd be on him.

Watson and Jackson aren’t really alike (outside of their complexion). I’m not sure what one has to do with the other?

[Kelly the Dog]

14 minutes ago, Rubes said:

 

Another thing I noticed (from the highlight reel, of course), is that he seems to do a really nice job when under pressure, always looking for the open receiver and eventually finding him. Doesn't seem to have a quick trigger to run...but when he does, he actually moves reasonably well.

Yeah I liked what I saw for the most part. Had a lot of great throws. His WR bailed him out a ton though. I think he's a 15-20 guy but he could fall.

[Mat68]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Watson and Jackson aren’t really alike (outside of their complexion). I’m not sure what one has to do with the other?

Athletic, prolific passers from spread offenses.  Both less than ideal size.  Seems to me if you are not sold on Watson you are less sold on Jackson.  Jackson is the better runner, Watson was the more refined passer.  

Edited January 19, 2018 by Mat68

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Athletic, prolific passers from spread offenses.  Both less than ideal size.  Seems to me if you are not sold on Watson you are less sold on Jackson.  

Jackson is much more athletic (not that Watson isn't), has a cannon arm, loves to run, often erratic. Watson is the opposite. Consistent. Doesn't look to run. Accurate. Both are good leaders. Watson's intangibles are off the charts.

[BuffaloRebound]

Pass.  With all the teams in front of us who need QB's, any QB who falls to pick 21 isn't worth wasting a first rounder on.  

[3rdand12]

11 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

No im not a fan of baker. Short small hands and mobile. The unholy trinity 

i am not delighted with either , Based upon all i have read here.
 especially since we have nothing on board to say Bills can develop a QB from that type of College game.
So much about a pocket passer beginning with Dennison and Beanes.
Thats what they wanted. Has the mindset changed with Daboll ?

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

People saying Jackson needs to find another position are delusional. He has excellent pocket awareness, knows how and when to step up, has a big arm, sees the field, can read a defence and can absolutely go through progressions. He threw for like 3,700 yards last year while running for 1600.. As has been mentioned, adjusted for drops his comp % is higher than Darnold's. He's the #1 prospect IMO and 100% a QB.

He has a mechanical issue pushing off his front rather than his back foot that causes his ball to sail at times. But that's it and it will be corrected. It's not the kind of flaw that's hard to iron out. Darnold's throwing motion definitely is hard to correct and is much more serious. They tried unsuccessfully to coach it out of him. It's a big problem. 

Kiper and Cowerd don't have Jackson in their first round mock. That's ludicrous. He is more likely to be the first player off the board than to he is to drop out of round #1.

Bill Polian just lambasted Jackson. Says basically he's Terrell Pryor!!

[Paulus]

Does anyone on here follow prospects from Highschool? I mean, a GM has those people available to him. You should always be looking at prospects years out, and be predicting players in the next 5 years (at least) worth of drafts. 

[JaCrispy]

21 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Pass.  With all the teams in front of us who need QB's, any QB who falls to pick 21 isn't worth wasting a first rounder on.  

Mike White in the 2nd round?

[Solomon Grundy]

Here's Bill Polian on 2014 QB Class

 

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2014/03/17/bill-polian-breaks-down-drafts-qbs-fan-of-manziel-tampa-bay-buccaneers-bucs-texans-jaguars-browns-raiders-vikings-bortles-bridgewater-commish-nfl-draft-pro-day/

[DJB]

I'm tired of reaching on the 2nd tier of QB's . For once I'd like an opportunity  to nab one of the top ones aND Rudolph  is not a top one

[starrymessenger]

13 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Bill Polian just lambasted Jackson. Says basically he's Terrell Pryor!!

 

Wow. Polian certainly understands that to be a top shelf QB in the NFL you have to be a passer first. When Cam Newton first came into the league he said he was a running back. To his credit, he added that he thought Newton had the ability to execute from the pocket. Based on your post, it seems that he is of the view that Jackson will be unable to do that. So he's saying that Jackson is or should be a wide receiver, like Pryor. 

The Pryor comparison is one that I have thought about. I came to the opposite conclusion however based on what at least I thought I was seeing as well on the basis of what I read and also heard on podcasts. More importantly there seem to be a lot of knowledgeable people who disagree with Polian's take. 

Im not a subscriber so I probably won't get to hear exactly what Polian had to say. Too bad because I'd be interested to know his reasons. 

If Beane shares Polian's opinion there is no way he would draft Jackson before the fifth round if at all. I wouldn't either. 

Somehow I really don't think that is what's going to happen. 

21 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Here's Bill Polian on 2014 QB Class

 

http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2014/03/17/bill-polian-breaks-down-drafts-qbs-fan-of-manziel-tampa-bay-buccaneers-bucs-texans-jaguars-browns-raiders-vikings-bortles-bridgewater-commish-nfl-draft-pro-day/

 

Ok so he's just an idiot lol.

I feel better now.

 

[DJB]

Rudolph  also plays weak defence in the big 12. Something  else  to consider  

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, the skycap said:

Bill Polian just lambasted Jackson. Says basically he's Terrell Pryor!!

Bill Polian stated when Russell Wilson was drafted that he would not be a starter in this league. Polian is a HOF GM. However, he's getting older and is not as immersed in the scouting business as he used to be. At this point I would give more credibility to the scouts in the field and front office staffers who do the grunt work. 

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Jackson is much more athletic (not that Watson isn't), has a cannon arm, loves to run, often erratic. Watson is the opposite. Consistent. Doesn't look to run. Accurate. Both are good leaders. Watson's intangibles are off the charts.

So if you didnt like watson enough to draft him why would you draft Jackson?  That was my origanal statement.  

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

So if you didnt like watson enough to draft him why would you draft Jackson?  That was my origanal statement.  

In hindsight it was a mistake not to draft Watson. As a starter with the Texans he was terrific before he got hurt. Without a doubt there are concerns about Jackson being able to translate his game from the college ranks to the pro ranks. It is legitimately an open question. But as I and others have stated he has shown significant improvement from two years ago to last year. There are no guarantees but undeniably his trajectory is on the upswing from where he previously was to where he is now.

[Mat68]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

In hindsight it was a mistake not to draft Watson. As a starter with the Texans he was terrific before he got hurt. Without a doubt there are concerns about Jackson being able to translate his game from the college ranks to the pro ranks. It is legitimately an open question. But as I and others have stated he has shown significant improvement from two years ago to last year. There are no guarantees but undeniably his trajectory is on the upswing from where he previously was to where he is now.

Im not doubting his talent.  To me he has the highest potential in the draft next to Allen.  To me they are 1A and 1B.  Its not really a critism but not sure how the current staff would rate him.  Maybe Mcdermott didnt trust his scouting staff last year to take a qb idk.  My opionion if they didnt like Watson they wont like Jackson.

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Im not doubting his talent.  To me he has the highest potential in the draft next to Allen.  To me they are 1A and 1B.  Its not really a critism but not sure how the current staff would rate him.  Maybe Mcdermott didnt trust his scouting staff last year to take a qb idk.  My opionion if they didnt like Watson they wont like Jackson.

The scouting department under Whaley was summarily fired after the draft. Whaley may not have been the person making the picks but he was involved in putting together the draft board. Most of the reports regarding McDermott is that he believed that in the next draft year (this year) that it would be a richer qb class. 

 

None of us know for short how this new staff is going to rate the qbs and what their current thinking of Jackson is. As the evaluating process moves forward we should get a better inkling how their thinking evolves. For me if the Bills don't move up to draft a qb and Jackson is there when their turn comes up it would be a mistake to not seriously consider him. 

[QuoteTheRaven83]

11 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Just heard them talking about that on the Billswire podcast in regards to Josh Allen. The number is staggeringly low.

 

If you aren't accurate in college, you aren't going to be accurate in the pros.

Not always true.

[Solomon Grundy]

Polian also spoke about Jackson's girth, but his measurements are comparable to Josh Rosen.

 

Jackson 6'3 210lbs

Rosen 6'4 216

[Buffalo_Stampede]

6 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

He also has the lowest downside.

 

Why? Jackson has made more pro reads then Rudolph.

[Estro]

Pass. 

 

Rudolph sucks.  Weak arm, and no where near good enough accuracy to ever be a good starter in the NFL

 

If you don't like Tyrod as a QB than you're not going to like Lamar Jackson.  I do think Jackson has the ability to be a more competent passer than TT, but I don't think he'll ever be a good passer.  Avg. at best.  He misses way too many throws and doesn't have the accuracy necessary to perform at a high level in the NFL.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Pass.  With all the teams in front of us who need QB's, any QB who falls to pick 21 isn't worth wasting a first rounder on.  

Texans happy with that thinking.

[Mat68]

39 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Polian also spoke about Jackson's girth, but his measurements are comparable to Josh Rosen.

 

Jackson 6'3 210lbs

Rosen 6'4 216

Rosen gets knocked for his size.  Rosen is not going to make his living outside the pocket like Jackson. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

53 minutes ago, Estro said:

Pass. 

 

Rudolph sucks.  Weak arm, and no where near good enough accuracy to ever be a good starter in the NFL

 

If you don't like Tyrod as a QB than you're not going to like Lamar Jackson.  I do think Jackson has the ability to be a more competent passer than TT, but I don't think he'll ever be a good passer.  Avg. at best.  He misses way too many throws and doesn't have the accuracy necessary to perform at a high level in the NFL.

This is a lazy argument against Jackson. Jackson is far superior to Taylor as a college player. Jackson is also bigger and shows better passing mechanics. 

 

Every player is different. I do know Jackson is a natural play maker. Will that translate to the NFL? Only one way to find out. 

Edited January 19, 2018 by TheTruthHurts

[Alphadawg7]

16 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This exercise assumes that the Bills will not trade up and will not have signed Cousins. They will have signed a placeholder guy in this scenario Bradford/Bridgewater/Tyrod/McCown. 

 

We have discussed a lot, the guy(s) that we want. Let’s say that the Bills stay put and the likely scenario or Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield and Allen are off the board. What should the Bills do at 21/22? Should they take Rudolph or Jackson or not draft a QB in the 1st? 

 

This is feels like a relatively realistic scenario. Please don’t provide ridiculous suggestions like “sign Garoppolo or Brees.” Let’s try to be realistic. 

 

You are correct, this is a VERY real scenario and the actual scenario I think that will play out.  I laughed today when Kiper had Alled going #1 overall with Rosen at #2 and Darnold at #5.  I seriously doubt Allen leap frogs his way to top overall pick, but hey anything is possible and stranger things have happened.  That would be very Browns like to, so guess it isnt that shocking lol.  

 

Either way, all 4 QB's are likely off the board within the first 15 picks, if not sooner with all the likely needy teams at QB in that range.  I honestly could see the Bills moving up by packaging one of firsts and one of our 2nds to get the key LB McD covets.  Then using our other first round pick on how their board is playing out in terms of the draft.  Wouldnt surprise me to see us wait until the 2nd to grab a QB there either, there will be some good ones available there that are comparable prospects IMO to Jackson and Mason.

 

Assuming the Bills go QB there, I think the pick would be Mason, but the pick I would want is Jackson.  I think Jackson has more upside than Mason personally, although I wouldnt be upset either if they took Mason.  All year I felt Baker would be our guy, but then two things happened along the way.  The Bills started winning more and dropping down the draft order, and the Baker started proving the doubters and haters wrong and rocketing higher up the draft boards.  So now, the expense to get him is probably too high with how far down the draft board we are.  

 

I still say go get Cousins and use our picks on the rest of the team as my primary choice though.

[bills11]

pass haven't seen much of rudolph

but lamar jackson has the worst footwork ive seen in some time

and is passing ability is below tyrods

[Nihilarian]

If the Mayfield has a really good senior bowl I think the Bills trade up to #4 get him before Denver, NY Jets and Miami who now says they will go QB in the first round if the BPA is a QB.

 

That 70% accuracy is going to make almost every team want him and he could even go one or two.

 

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2018bmayfield.php

[WideRightRevenge]

19 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

Just a guess and one fan's opinion but I strongly suspect that Jackson has Beane's attention in a big way as well as that of evaluators from other teams. The two best prospects for playing the position at the next level are Jackson and Rosen. If you want a traditional pocket passer who can make all the throws with accuracy and touch and who is ready to stand in behind a good offensive line and play at a high level Rosen is your guy. But he is limited inasmuch as he is pretty much unable to operate outside the pocket either as a runner or a passer at the next level.

Jackson is not a Tyrod clone. He was fully in command of Petrino's complicated pro style offence. He can read a defence and go through his progressions. Tyrod could never do that. He is exactly the same guy today as he was at Tech. Jackson can execute from the pocket. Except for designed runs he stands in very well and can see the field. He bails only when he has to and when he does he keeps his eyes downfield and squares his shoulders before firing. Unless Beane feels that Jackson can develop as a pocket passer he won't consider him, but in my view it's pretty clear that Jackson can do that. The last thing that anybody wants, especially in Bills land is a guy who is really just a running college variety spread QB who cannot see the field and bails early. That is not Jackson IMO. 

There is a problem that affects Jackson's accuracy and that causes his ball occasionally to sail high. He pushes off his front foot rather than transferring his weight properly after pushing off his back foot. He absolutely needs to correct that. Not making excuses for him but lots of good prospects taken high in the draft have mechanical glitches in their throwing mechanics that need work - Patrick Mahomes, Sam Darnold. In fact Darnold's issues are much more serious and difficult to correct. He has a big windmill arm motion where the ball drops to hip level before coming back up - the exact opposite of a compact delivery. It's led to many turnovers in college, so imagine what will likely happen in the pros unless he corrects that. And that's a lot harder to correct than Jackson's weight transfer problem. 

To me Jackson is the top QB prospect in this class all things considered, followed by Mayfield. At 6'3" and circa 215 he needs to pack on another 15 lbs to fill out his frame, especially if he's going to make plays with his feet, but he got thicker in his body just last year so he is still developing that way and it shouldn't be a problem for him. In Carolina Beane was part of the team that drafted Cam, who was the most talented QB in that draft. Jackson is the most talented QB in this class IMO. There were lots of questions concerning his ability to transition from a run heavy Auburn O to a pro offence where he would first and foremost have to execute from the pocket. The concerns were legit. He did poorly in passing drills at the Combine. But the braintrust had confidence that he could get there. I think Beane may well come to the same conclusion regarding Jackson. If I'm right about that you can bet Jackson is on Beane's radar and very prominently so.

If I were the Browns I would consider making him the first overall pick and then going Barkely at # 4. Two generational athletes. I'd actually be happy for long suffering Browns fans. I just don't want him to go to the Jets, who are definitely drafting a QB (unless they sign Cousins).

 

Bill Polian just trashed this last night on Mel Kipers 1.0 draft show .. they see him as a WR ala Terrell Pryor