Source: Bills Still Deciding on Watkins' 5th Year Option

[Kirby Jackson]

It doesnt matter if Sammy averages 400 yds oer receptionif he cant stay healthy he hurts the team more than he helps it. Everytime hes out with an injury the offense completely changes. That isn't conducive to a consistent offense.

I don't disagree that he needs to stay healthy. What I am (and have been) arguing is that he needs to see the ball like the other top guys do. Hopkins had 169 targets last year. Julio had over 200 in 2015. Even in the Bills offense Watkins needs 10 targets a game. His numbers would be massive if he saw the ball like those guys do. His stats were right on par with Cooper in 2015 despite 34 less targets.

[Augie]

If healthy and TT plays even just average, the sky is the limit. His lack of YAC has been odd, but his ability is clearly outstanding.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Augie

[fridge]

I'd like to see some statistics now that the whole five-year option has been around for a while.

[YoloinOhio]

That's the point I was trying to make the other day. Someone said something about him being good at finding depth RBs and a poster said "that will be the first thing that he ever got right." Then a bunch of examples of his successes were laid out but they apparently don't count. I don't know why Bills fans insist on usually absolutes all of the time? Like with anything there is some good and some bad. The Bills are .500 over the last 3 years, or average. If they were 0-48 I would agree.

 

I guess though Bills fans just want to hold someone accountable. This thread is a great example. There are a section of Bills fans that want to move on from Sammy Watkins because he has only started 77% of the Bills games since coming here.

but don't you dare take Hogan or Gillislee!

[Wayne Cubed]

I don't disagree that he needs to stay healthy. What I am (and have been) arguing is that he needs to see the ball like the other top guys do. Hopkins had 169 targets last year. Julio had over 200 in 2015. Even in the Bills offense Watkins needs 10 targets a game. His numbers would be massive if he saw the ball like those guys do. His stats were right on par with Cooper in 2015 despite 34 less targets.

 

It's really not more difficult than this to understand. Just look at the games Watkins is targeted. He dominates.

 

In 2015, in the games that he got more than 8 targets, he averaged 119 yards and 1.16 TDs.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

.500 is the new 0-48.

.500 is worse than 0-48. .500 is the WORST thing an NFL team can be

[ALF]

Will be interesting to see if the Browns strategy works sooner then the Bills get to the playoffs now .

[Buffalo Boy]

In Sammy's last season healthy he had the ball thrown to him 96 times in 13 games. He had 60 catches, 1,047 yards and 9 TDs (17.5 ypr). In that same year Amari Cooper had the ball thrown to him 130 times in 16 games. He had 72 catches, 1,070 yards and 6 TDs (14.9 ypr). He plays with Carr. He's a nice player but not in Watkins league. If Watkins saw the ball as often as Cooper there would be a big gap between them. There isn't one thing that Cooper does better than Watkins (except stay healthy).

 

Hopkins was thrown the ball 169 times last year alone. Sammy has 233 targets in his career. You will always put up bigger gross numbers with more chances. If a guy has 30 carries he should have more yards than a guy with 15.

" Except stay healthy" is a pretty important exception though I fully agree he's better WHEN healthy.

Remember when Kelly called out Greg Bell after he was traded to the Rams? The question is; does this staff have faith in his ability to fully recover?

If not, a trade would be good and the best time to rebuild is at the beginning of a new coaches tenure. I don't believe it would happen till next year though

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/e74f92ae-6267-3137-b09d-cf7ff377767d/ss_sammy-watkins-to-carolina..%3F.html

 

Some interest out there...saw this tonight on Yahoo.

A Majority of Ginn's responsibility was to just stretch the outside of the field. If Watkins was healthy in the Panther's O he could put up insane numbers.

[BigBuff423]

I loved the Sammy Watkins pick, but hated the currency it took to get him - which is not his fault, so picking up his option seems like a foregone conclusion. The option allows the team to keep him at a reduced rate for an additional year and time to negotiate a long-term deal should they feel one is necessary, which I'm sure they do. However, the key is the value. He may want to be paid like a star, but has not yet shown he has produced like an elite WR - again, not ALL his fault due to the first year being what it was, and yes the injury issue is one to consider. The 5th year allows for health to be considered a factor and not simply throwing away what could be a really important piece to the playoff puzzle in the years to come.

[PromoTheRobot]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/e74f92ae-6267-3137-b09d-cf7ff377767d/ss_sammy-watkins-to-carolina..%3F.html

 

Some interest out there...saw this tonight on Yahoo.

Lol, media spitball.

[Kirby Jackson]

Lol, media spitball.

Should Carolina trade a late round pick and/or a fringe roster player for Watkins? Hmmm....

 

The Bills should counter with a 5th and Colt Anderson for Cam.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Bill from NYC]

There isn't one thing that Cooper does better than Watkins (except stay healthy).

 

Yeah, there is. Cooper is a much bigger target and his hands are at least as good as Sammy's. Don't you think that a big, open receiver such as Amari makes life easier for Carr?

 

Watkins would appear to have a bit more talent than Cooper, but imo it is far less of a slam dunk than the picture you paint. Now, who would I rather have on the Bills? Cooper, but I am probably not being 100% impartial.

 

Still, the kid is special. I have seen him pull in passes for completions that looked WAY out of bounds. Amari is a good kid and a clutch player who can and will win a team some football games.

[Kirby Jackson]

Yeah, there is. Cooper is a much bigger target and his hands are at least as good as Sammy's. Don't you think that a big, open receiver such as Amari makes life easier for Carr?

 

Watkins would appear to have a bit more talent than Cooper, but imo it is far less of a slam dunk than the picture you paint. Now, who would I rather have on the Bills? Cooper, but I am probably not being 100% impartial.

 

Still, the kid is special. I have seen him pull in passes for completions that looked WAY out of bounds. Amari is a good kid and a clutch player who can and will win a team some football games.

I like Cooper, but Sammy is open every play. He gets separation that Amari doesn't and is a lot more explosive. Watkins hands are phenomenal while Cooper's are questionable https://www.profootballfocus.com/worst-hands-in-nfl-this-season/. Sammy has produced at a superior level when he's been on the field. Sammy needs to stay healthy and the Bills need to throw him the ball like the other top guys. If Cooper didn't go to Alabama you wouldn't think that he is better (but I do the same thing with Buckeyes). You can sleep easy knowing though that the best receiver in the world is a former member of the Tide..

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

In Sammy's last season healthy he had the ball thrown to him 96 times in 13 games. He had 60 catches, 1,047 yards and 9 TDs (17.5 ypr). In that same year Amari Cooper had the ball thrown to him 130 times in 16 games. He had 72 catches, 1,070 yards and 6 TDs (14.9 ypr). He plays with Carr. He's a nice player but not in Watkins league. If Watkins saw the ball as often as Cooper there would be a big gap between them. There isn't one thing that Cooper does better than Watkins (except stay healthy).

 

Hopkins was thrown the ball 169 times last year alone. Sammy has 233 targets in his career. You will always put up bigger gross numbers with more chances. If a guy has 30 carries he should have more yards than a guy with 15.

Got it, the only thing Cooper does better is stay on the field and produce... Sammy is bettter at everything else aside from staying on the field and production.

[Kirby Jackson]

Got it, the only thing Cooper does better is stay on the field and produce... Sammy is bettter at everything else aside from staying on the field and production.

No, if you are interpreting 23 more yards and 3 less TDs on 34 more targets as "better production" I don't know what to tell you.

[thebandit27]

Yeah, there is. Cooper is a much bigger target and his hands are at least as good as Sammy's. Don't you think that a big, open receiver such as Amari makes life easier for Carr?

 

Watkins would appear to have a bit more talent than Cooper, but imo it is far less of a slam dunk than the picture you paint. Now, who would I rather have on the Bills? Cooper, but I am probably not being 100% impartial.

 

Still, the kid is special. I have seen him pull in passes for completions that looked WAY out of bounds. Amari is a good kid and a clutch player who can and will win a team some football games.

 

Bill, most of this is simply false.

 

Cooper is 6'1", 211 lbs

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/amari-cooper?id=2552487

Sammy is 6'1", 211 lbs.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sammy-watkins?id=2543457

 

Cooper's drop rate was 7.1% as a rookie and 2.3% last year.

Sammy's drop rate was 3.1% as a rookie, 3.1% in year 2, and 3.9% last year

 

On a per-target basis, Sammy smokes Cooper despite playing with a QB that is clearly not the passer that Carr is at the current time.

 

And that brings me back to my point: Cooper is probably a top-10 WR in the NFL by most accounts.

 

Sammy has 2 seasons of performing like a No. 1 WR despite a staggering lack of opportunity in comparison to his peers.

 

The only issue with him is availability. Now, if someone places a higher level of emphasis on that than someone else, sure, that's an argument worth having.

 

Whether or not he's as productive as other guys when given the targets is not up for debate.

Edited April 17, 2017 by thebandit27

[TheElectricCompany]

Cooper has looked good so far, from some of the local Raaaaaiiiddeeerrr fans talk, it sounds like he's a bit streaky as a catcher.

Sammy is open every play.

The longer we go without football, the crazier these Sammy statements become.

I love it.

[thebandit27]

 

The longer we go without football, the crazier these Sammy statements become.

I love it.

 

Honestly, when you attend the games and look at the All-22, if what Kirby said is an exaggeration, then it's only a slight one.

[TheElectricCompany]

Honestly, when you attend the games and look at the All-22, if what Kirby said is an exaggeration, then it's only a slight one.

If all it took to analyze players was going to the games and watching "All 22" from WGR, we'd all have front office jobs.

 

This doesn't even have anything to do with Sammy, it's just bull **** statements like "he's open every play" that make me chuckle.

 

I wouldn't say that any player is always open, but I think there are a select few players that are "open when they're covered", and usually it's because they dwarf anyone covering them or are just ridiculous in a jump ball situation (Gronk, AJ Green, Calvin Johnson pre retirement)

Edited April 17, 2017 by TheElectricCompany

[26CornerBlitz]

If all it took to analyze players was going to the games and watching "All 22" from WGR, we'd all have front office jobs.

 

This doesn't even have anything to do with Sammy, it's just bull **** statements like "he's open every play" that make me chuckle.

 

I wouldn't say that any player is ever open any play, but I think there are a select few players that are "open when they're covered", and usually it's because they dwarf anyone covering them or are just ridiculous in a jump ball situation (Gronk, AJ Green, Calvin Johnson pre retirement)

 

The All-22 is actual film of the game from the coaches box perspective that has been available to fans for the last few seasons.

[thebandit27]

If all it took to analyze players was going to the games and watching "All 22" from WGR, we'd all have front office jobs.

 

This doesn't even have anything to do with Sammy, it's just bull **** statements like "he's open every play" that make me chuckle.

 

I wouldn't say that any player is ever open any play, but I think there are a select few players that are "open when they're covered", and usually it's because they dwarf anyone covering them or are just ridiculous in a jump ball situation (Gronk, AJ Green, Calvin Johnson pre retirement)

 

I have no clue what point you're trying to make.

[Chilly]

 

I have no clue what point you're trying to make.

 

WGR controls All-22, duh.

[Kirby Jackson]

If all it took to analyze players was going to the games and watching "All 22" from WGR, we'd all have front office jobs.

 

This doesn't even have anything to do with Sammy, it's just bull **** statements like "he's open every play" that make me chuckle.

 

I wouldn't say that any player is ever open any play, but I think there are a select few players that are "open when they're covered", and usually it's because they dwarf anyone covering them or are just ridiculous in a jump ball situation (Gronk, AJ Green, Calvin Johnson pre retirement)

Julian Edelman and Antonio Brown are open all of the time too. It has as much to do with route running, hand placement, quickness and speed as it does size. I defer though to the people at WGR to learn football .... Edited April 17, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[TheElectricCompany]

 

The All-22 is actual film of the game from the coaches box perspective that has been available to fans for the last few seasons.

It's a great feature, but that doesn't mean we're any better at analyzing players. We're all just casual fans who have no idea on how to watch tape and measure play by play performance.

[Kirby Jackson]

It's a great feature, but that doesn't mean we're any better at analyzing players. We're all just casual fans who have no idea on how to watch tape and measure play by play performance.

Really?

[TheElectricCompany]

Really?

Are you a NFL scout? A pro analyst? A full time coach? That be awesome if you were, because I'd push your posts to the top of the pile

 

But sure, let's jump on All 22 from WGR, a few Youtube highlight reels and go the games and make funny statements like "He's open every play", "He's a top 3 WR when healthy" or "He'd outperform OBJ if the tables were turned".

Edited April 17, 2017 by TheElectricCompany

[dave mcbride]

 

Bill, most of this is simply false.

 

Cooper is 6'1", 211 lbs

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/amari-cooper?id=2552487

Sammy is 6'1", 211 lbs.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sammy-watkins?id=2543457

 

Cooper's drop rate was 7.1% as a rookie and 2.3% last year.

Sammy's drop rate was 3.1% as a rookie, 3.1% in year 2, and 3.9% last year

 

On a per-target basis, Sammy smokes Cooper despite playing with a QB that is clearly not the passer that Carr is at the current time.

 

And that brings me back to my point: Cooper is probably a top-10 WR in the NFL by most accounts.

 

Sammy has 2 seasons of performing like a No. 1 WR despite a staggering lack of opportunity in comparison to his peers.

 

The only issue with him is availability. Now, if someone places a higher level of emphasis on that than someone else, sure, that's an argument worth having.

 

Whether or not he's as productive as other guys when given the targets is not up for debate.

+1.

[Kirby Jackson]

Are you a NFL scout? A pro analyst? A full time coach? That be awesome if you were, because I'd push your posts to the top of the pile

 

But sure, let's jump on All 22 from WGR, a few Youtube highlight reels and go the games and make funny statements like "He's open every play", "He's a top 3 WR when healthy" or "He'd outperform OBJ if the tables were turned".

I have never been a pro scout but I have sat in on film sessions with them on a handful of occasions and know a dozen plus pro scouts. Their process is no different than Bandit, Blokes, Cover 1, Gunner or Rob Quinn. They just have technology that is easier to sort through. They are all looking at the same thing though. It is a little insulting to assume that people don't know what they are looking at. I am pretty sure Eric at Cover 1 was a college QB. He knows what he is looking at as do a lot of people here. Edited April 17, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[BillsfanAZ]

The Bills will pick up his option. If they dont and end up putting the franchise tag on him then they have to pay him more money rather than locking him up now. Eventually the injury bug will stop biting and he will show off his talent. I dont think the new coaches will ignore him on offense.

[YoloinOhio]

@albertbreer

Bucs GM Jason Licht told reporters the team is picking up Mike Evans' 5th-year option. Third one so far (Jadeveon Clowney, Aaron Donald).

[TheElectricCompany]

I have never been a pro scout but I have sat in on film sessions with them on a handful of occasions and know a dozen plus pro scouts. Their process is no different than Bandit, Blokes, Cover 1, Gunner or Rob Quinn. They just have technology that is easier to sort through. They are all looking at the same thing though. It is a little insulting to assume that people don't know what they are looking at. I am pretty sure Eric at Cover 1 was a college QB. He knows what he is looking at as do a lot of people here.

That's good that you're well connected with established NFL scouts, but I don't see them making the kind of ridiculous statements this thread is full.

 

I just don't see how someone could walk away from watching Sammy live and on tape over the past three seasons and think the guy is the best thing since sliced bread. It's perfectly fine for some to disregard the consistency and production of established top tier receivers and both inflate and project what Sammy could do if his situation was perfected. Again, he's not a bad receiver, he's certainly quality and has big play ability, but it's this top 3-10 stuff that makes me scratch my head.

 

If the guy really burns corners left and right and is open every play, how is it that 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches couldn't find a way to get him the ball consistently? There are only two possible scenarios: Our coaches were so incredibly incompetent that they missed a top tier receiver right in front of their eyes, or he's just not as good as we think. Take your pick.

Edited April 17, 2017 by TheElectricCompany

[GunnerBill]

Sammy is a brilliant route runner with elite short space quickness and change of direction.

 

I have no doubt he is capable of being a top 5 receiver in this league. But he has to have the production before you put him there and his injuries have restricted that production.... as has a Quarterback who doesn't see the field.

[Real McClappy]

That's good that you're well connected with established NFL scouts, but I don't see them making the kind of ridiculous statements this thread is full.

 

I just don't see how someone could walk away from watching Sammy live and on tape over the past three seasons and think the guy is the best thing since sliced bread. It's perfectly fine for some to disregard the consistency and production of established top tier receivers and both inflate and project what Sammy could do if his situation was perfected. Again, he's not a bad receiver, he's certainly quality and has big play ability, but it's this top 3-10 stuff that makes me scratch my head.

 

If the guy really burns corners left and right and is open every play, how is it that 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches couldn't find a way to get him the ball consistently? There are only two possible scenarios: Our coaches were so incredibly incompetent that they missed a top tier receiver right in front of their eyes, or he's just not as good as we think. Take your pick. ?

 

 

 

Lack of Targets due to QB play that is not acceptable for any #1 WR to strive is Ridiculous statements in this thread? What coach will ever survive in this league without a true #1 QB? The answer is none. So lets blame all our WR's and coaches now like we have done so long in the past on the O-line. When is the silliness from Bills fans ever going to end?

Edited April 17, 2017 by Real McCoy

[Dr. Who]

Sammy is a brilliant route runner with elite short space quickness and change of direction.

 

I have no doubt he is capable of being a top 5 receiver in this league. But he has to have the production before you put him there and his injuries have restricted that production.... as has a Quarterback who doesn't see the field.

Health and a better qb would equal elite production. My understanding is a number of wide receivers have required a second surgery on that foot problem. It appears to be something that is stable afterwards. Other injuries are perhaps another issue. Better qb is something a lot of folks here want to defer.

[Big C]

Worth noting only three options have been picked up so far league wide. Plenty of good players from that draft still waiting.

[Boatdrinks]

 

If the guy really burns corners left and right and is open every play, how is it that 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches couldn't find a way to get him the ball consistently? There are only two possible scenarios: Our coaches were so incredibly incompetent that they missed a top tier receiver right in front of their eyes, or he's just not as good as we think. Take your pick.

 

Watch the all 22 and see for yourself. While it's all well and good to boil it down to two simplistic scenarios of your choosing, you omit the very important dynamic of the QB. The Bills coaching has certainly been suspect and perhaps incompetent. Ignoring the deficiencies of the QB when it comes to WR production is silly. For example, did Hopkins suddenly get worse at HOU or is Osweiler just not a very good QB? Saying the only two possible scenarios are that Sammys just not that good or the coaches are incompetent is well, incompetent.

[Kirby Jackson]

That's good that you're well connected with established NFL scouts, but I don't see them making the kind of ridiculous statements this thread is full.

 

I just don't see how someone could walk away from watching Sammy live and on tape over the past three seasons and think the guy is the best thing since sliced bread. It's perfectly fine for some to disregard the consistency and production of established top tier receivers and both inflate and project what Sammy could do if his situation was perfected. Again, he's not a bad receiver, he's certainly quality and has big play ability, but it's this top 3-10 stuff that makes me scratch my head.

 

If the guy really burns corners left and right and is open every play, how is it that 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches couldn't find a way to get him the ball consistently? There are only two possible scenarios: Our coaches were so incredibly incompetent that they missed a top tier receiver right in front of their eyes, or he's just not as good as we think. Take your pick.

It is the former. He got 6.5 targets a game. Julio Jones gets 11 and Antonio Brown 11.2. Even Deandre Hopkins got over 10.5 a game last year. Edelman gets over 12. Do you think it's crazy for him to get 10 targets a game? If he gets that (which is what other good receivers are getting) it amounts to 105 catches, 1,689 yards and 12 TDs. The production on a per target basis has been elite. That is obviously inept coaching. It is (and was) inexcusable to throw him the ball 6.5 times a game. This holds especially true with your other pass catching options.

[Dr. Who]

It is the former. He got 6.5 targets a game. Julio Jones gets 11 and Antonio Brown 11.2. Even Deandre Hopkins got over 10.5 a game last year. Edelman gets over 12. Do you think it's crazy for him to get 10 targets a game? If he gets that (which is what other good receivers are getting) it amounts to 105 catches, 1,689 yards and 12 TDs. The production on a per target basis has been elite. That is obviously inept coaching. It is (and was) inexcusable to throw him the ball 6.5 times a game. This holds especially true with your other pass catching options.

I sure hope the new coaching staff gets it.

[fridge]

It is the former. He got 6.5 targets a game. Julio Jones gets 11 and Antonio Brown 11.2. Even Deandre Hopkins got over 10.5 a game last year. Edelman gets over 12. Do you think it's crazy for him to get 10 targets a game? If he gets that (which is what other good receivers are getting) it amounts to 105 catches, 1,689 yards and 12 TDs. The production on a per target basis has been elite. That is obviously inept coaching. It is (and was) inexcusable to throw him the ball 6.5 times a game. This holds especially true with your other pass catching options.

 

I feel like Watkins' average is misleading... it doesn't do enough to highlight just how misused he has been. While it may work out that he has had 6.5 targets per game, looking at his season you can see that his high was only 10 targets in a game where had 7 catches. 7 catches was his season high. His next best game was 4 catches.

 

I've seen some people say that our run-heavy offense kept us in games, but actually that should free Watkins in the pass game even more. There's no excuse for Watkins' lack of targets. It makes you wonder why the franchise hemorrhaged so much in order to land him, only to do almost nothing to use him as a weapon in the offense.

[Manther]

Anyone who WOULDN'T resign Sammy, considering what he has shown he can do and what we gave up for him, is insane.

 

 

Jesus, what 17 years does to people.

Simply and correctly put!

except that he totally is..and hes 23 not 12, supposedly a man.

That is a silly comment lacking any fact!