Did Anybody Hear Ross Tucker This Morning? ( Re Tyrod/Jones)

[Kirby Jackson]

Stats wise? Yes. As far as being a better QB? No. Bledsoe was a better QB than Tyrod. Tyrod is the superior athlete. It was also a different league back then. Different rules and different schemes. The game as a whole was different just 12 years ago.

No, Tyrod impacted the game (and had far superior stats) in 2016 to Bledsoe in 2004. Bledsoe's 1st 8 games in Buffalo were great but he really was an average to below average QB since about 1997. He made a TON of mistakes and didnt make a ton of plays to offset it. 2004 Drew Bledsoe was not a good QB by any metric. He wasn't good in 2003 either. He averaged about 185 yards a game with 32 TDs and 28 picks in 2003-2004. TT over the last 2 years has 47 TDs and 12 INTs and averages about 249 yards a game. Tyrod did that over 29 games vs. 32 for Bledsoe. We tend to remember people better in hindsight but Bledsoe was not good at all in 2003-2004. Edited February 14, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Alphadawg7]

No, Tyrod impacted the game (and had far superior stats) in 2016 to Bledsoe in 2004. Bledsoe's 1st 8 games in Buffalo were great but he really was an average to below average QB since about 1997. He made a TON of mistakes and didnt make a ton of plays to offset it. 2004 Drew Bledsoe was not a good QB by any metric. He wasn't good in 2003 either. He averaged about 185 yards a game with 32 TDs and 28 picks in 2003-2004. TT over the last 2 years has 47 TDs and 12 INTs and averages about 249 yards a game. Tyrod did that over 29 games vs. 32 for Bledsoe. We tend to remember people better in hindsight but Bledsoe was not good at all in 2003-2004.

 

I have to agree with you on this. Up until Tyrod, it was pretty easy to look back and say Bledsoe was probably the best QB we had since Kelly. Even that was an arguable statement, but still felt comfortable to assume. His biggest issue when he was a Bill was that he had become a statue in the pocket at that point in his career and was not good at avoiding of feeling the rush/pressure and really needed a stoic OL to give him time to operate.

 

TT has been vastly the most effective QB we have had since Kelly. We could do a lot worse than him and have done a lot worse for 17 years. In the era of Madden games, Fantasy Football, scoring friendly NFL rules...fans have become enamored with the shiny object of passing yards and lost all sight to the core of winning in the NFL and that is scoring more than your opponent. The people mostly against TT are fixated on one singular stat...passing yard ranking. They completely disregard how much he produces on the ground, how the threat of him running vastly impacts the overall run game for our RBs, helps our WRs etc.

 

Also...to add to your point Kirby, look at what TT has faced the last 2 years on his way to those 47 TDs and only 12 INT's:

 

1. Two different OC's in 2 seasons. Not to mention, he has had 3 OC's over the last 3 seasons and now is going to have his 4th in last 4 seasons regardless to where he plays this year.

2. Injuries to his best OL, WRs, RB's, TE, etc and rarely played a game where the offense was in tact.

3. Has less than 2 full seasons under his belt in games started.

4. Dealt with his own injuries both seasons and played through them for the most part.

5. Played on a "run first" team and had the LEAST amount of pass attempts in the NFL despite still accounting for 47 TD's in 2 years.

 

So lets see where the TT led offense stacks up historically in this franchise to further your point how he is better than Bledsoe was here:

 

- 2016 Bills were the 7th highest scoring team in Bills history, 1 point away from being tied for 5th place.

- Had TT played week 17, they would have easily been 5th all time as they only needed to score 2 more points to do so.

- Had TT played week 17 and we scored 20 points, this team would have been 4th all time. If we scored 32 we would have been 3rd all time. If we scored 39 we would have been 2nd all time. Against that bad Jets team, with TT starting we could have easily scored at least 20, good shot at 32 and could have possibly hit 39.

- The 2 years with TT are the highest scoring 2 years in Buffalo history outside the 4 SB runs. And TT led Bills this year outscored that 4th Bills SB run team.

 

Yet this kids biggest issue is not taking enough chances. He's been very efficient in the turnover department, almost to a fault though. What keeps getting overlooked is how productive through the air he and Sammy are when Sammy has been at full health. Get this kid another reliable receiving weapon (no Robert Woods is not that guy) next to a healthy Sammy and the passing game will look different to say the least. Combine that with an almost certainly improved defense with Rex bad system gone, Dareus here all year, Rags and Shaq back healthy to start the season, and improvements at Safety via draft/FA and this team is more than capable of making the playoffs and even being competitive in the post season.

[H2o]

No, Tyrod impacted the game (and had far superior stats) in 2016 to Bledsoe in 2004. Bledsoe's 1st 8 games in Buffalo were great but he really was an average to below average QB since about 1997. He made a TON of mistakes and didnt make a ton of plays to offset it. 2004 Drew Bledsoe was not a good QB by any metric. He wasn't good in 2003 either. He averaged about 185 yards a game with 32 TDs and 28 picks in 2003-2004. TT over the last 2 years has 47 TDs and 12 INTs and averages about 249 yards a game. Tyrod did that over 29 games vs. 32 for Bledsoe. We tend to remember people better in hindsight but Bledsoe was not good at all in 2003-2004.

Like I said, the game was different then. Our defense was really good in those years. Regardless of the Tyrod\Bledsoe debate, the fact remains that Tyrod is what he is. He is inconsistent, wildly inaccurate at times, has trouble reading defenses, he's not clutch, he doesn't throw his guys open, he'll tuck and run even with a clean pocket, doesn't use the middle of the field, and misses seeing open targets. That's exactly who he has been for the last two years and that is exactly who he will be. He will make some flashy plays with his legs and throw one hell of ball, but he will never carry the team with his arm at any point like we need him to at times. Edited February 14, 2017 by H2o

[Kirby Jackson]

Like I said, the game was different then. Our defense was really good in those years. Regardless of the Tyrod\Bledsoe debate, the fact remains that Tyrod is what he is. He is inconsistent, wildly inaccurate at times, has trouble reading defenses, he's not clutch, he doesn't throw his guys open, he'll tuck and run even with a clean pocket, doesn't use the middle of the field, and misses seeing open targets. That's exactly who he has been for the last two years and that is exactly who he will be. He will make some flashy plays with his legs and throw one hell of ball, but he will never carry the team with his arm at any point like we need him to at times.

There isn't a world where a 1:1 TD to INT ratio is as good as a 4:1. That has nothing to do with eras and everything to do with a superior level of play. No need to prop up Bledsoe to downplay Taylor. I think that your post is fair and reasoned here. I think that your reservations about him moving forward are legit.

 

Tyrod being who he is and Bledsoe being better are two different things. I wasn't responding to what to do this offseason. I was responding to the assertion that 2004 Drew Bledsoe was better than 2016 Tyrod Taylor. Too often assertions like that are made to strengthen our stance on TT one way or another. The facts tell a different story.

[Prickly Pete]

He told of how he was on the Bills when they dumped Bledsoe and went with Losman. He went on to say that the best players on the team were furious and virtually quit on the team. They knew that there was no chance to win with Losman.

 

He also said that players such as Incog, Glenn, Wood, and others would do the same if Whaley cuts Tyrod and goes with CJ.

 

He went on to list several dumb moves by Whaley (letting go of Hogan, drafting EJ Manuel and other stupid moves). He is NOT impressed with Whaley, nor am I.

 

I guess any time a Bills Fan thinks that it can't get worse with this team, reality smacks us in the face.

 

I for one hope that we keep Tyrod and fire Whaley, who is a rank amateur and a sub-par joke of a GM. I do however hope that he keeps us posted with fashion tips. He sure knows how to dress (and destroy a football team).

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

This team won't be a contender for 3 or 4 years at best (I don't mean they can't make the playoffs, I mean real contenders). Incog, Wood, they will never be on a true contender Bills team. Most likely, Kyle Williams will never play in a playoff game for the Bills. So I don't care what those guys think.

 

This team is a mess.

[H2o]

There isn't a world where a 1:1 TD to INT ratio is as good as a 4:1. That has nothing to do with eras and everything to do with a superior level of play. No need to prop up Bledsoe to downplay Taylor. I think that your post is fair and reasoned here. I think that your reservations about him moving forward are legit.

 

Tyrod being who he is and Bledsoe being better are two different things. I wasn't responding to what to do this offseason. I was responding to the assertion that 2004 Drew Bledsoe was better than 2016 Tyrod Taylor. Too often assertions like that are made to strengthen our stance on TT one way or another. The facts tell a different story.

Yes, I agree that Tyrod's stats are better than the last couple with Drew. Do I believe that Tyrod is a better QB than Drew was? Not by any means. Tyrod is a superior athlete which allows him to do things Drew could not. Comparing a running QB to a pure pocket passer can't really be done. Tyrod does have the better "stats" though.

[Kirby Jackson]

Yes, I agree that Tyrod's stats are better than the last couple with Drew. Do I believe that Tyrod is a better QB than Drew was? Not by any means. Tyrod is a superior athlete which allows him to do things Drew could not. Comparing a running QB to a pure pocket passer can't really be done. Tyrod does have the better "stats" though.

I certainly believe that this version of Tyrod Taylor is a better QB than the 2003-2004 Drew Bledsoe. I don't even think it's close. What did Bledsoe do better? He completed a lower percentage, turned it over WAY more often, lower ypa, less yards, sacked more often, WAY less TDs and that doesn't account for Tyrod's 1,000 plus yards and 10 TDs on the ground. What is it that Bledsoe did better? There literally isn't ANYTHING that supports 2003-2004 Bledsoe over 2015-2016 Tyrod Taylor.

[ALF]

I just wonder if the story that Whaley wanted Hue Jackson with Schwartz as DC rather then Rex is true.

 

Rex destroyed a playoff caliber D

 

If that were true , I would trust Whaley

[liverpoolkev]

 

I actually like Whaley, but I think Whaley would be making a colossal mistake letting TT go this year. He is going to lose the support of the vets like you said because it will a signal of blowing it up and rebuilding rather than looking to get this team to the next step. This team was one of the top scoring teams in the NFL with TT at the helm and while dealing with critical injuries to our best playmakers on offense. I just can't see how the best direction of this team is abandoning TT for a raw Cardale who didn't show anything close to ready in week 17, or a QB in this marginal QB class at best.

 

In a speculative note as well...the possibility of being able to trade up next year for a guy like Sam from USC could be in play. I mean looking across the NFL, the odds are someone like Cleveland or SF will probably end up with the first pick next year anyway, those rosters are pretty bad...but both are expected to go after a QB of the future in this draft (Cleveland I think actually fills it with Jimmy G). So trading up to their pick could be feasible (although expensive) and they may not be looking to grab a QB just like how the Rams traded out of their pick to Washington for RG3 because they felt they had their guy of the future already.

 

Bottom line: If the Bills take a QB in first 2 rounds and have gotten rid of Taylor...i will hate the decision. But, that being said, I will root for the kid hard to succeed and prove the move worthy...unlike others around here who just root for certain players to fail so they can be right about their agenda.

Whaley could care less about this group. They should have played better . If everyone agree that Tyrod is not worth 27 mil then you go with the prospects on your roster. Not go grab projects to make fans happy this crap about Romo or MaCarron need to stop that's crap your good ole boys GM's would drum up that why we been putrid for 14 yrs Levy, Butler, Donohue and Buddy Nix picking & binging in crazy crap. I didn't hear anyone say fire them. We finally have a staff that Whaley envisioned from his Pittsburg days like Tomlin we have in Mcdermitt a no nonsense intelligent coach who brought a staff of teachers.

 

As for Kyle Williams who has been part of the losing his whole career I have no problem with him retiring or buffalo trading him. Its time for his 8 mil cap hit to come off the books. This is a very strong defensive draft that is where the focus should be. They should go hard after Pryor III and Josh Gordan why because they are play makers and will come cheaper than paying the free agent WR we have on roster.

Edited February 14, 2017 by liverpoolkev

[PolishDave]

He told of how he was on the Bills when they dumped Bledsoe and went with Losman. He went on to say that the best players on the team were furious and virtually quit on the team. They knew that there was no chance to win with Losman.

 

He also said that players such as Incog, Glenn, Wood, and others would do the same if Whaley cuts Tyrod and goes with CJ.

 

He went on to list several dumb moves by Whaley (letting go of Hogan, drafting EJ Manuel and other stupid moves). He is NOT impressed with Whaley, nor am I.

 

I guess any time a Bills Fan thinks that it can't get worse with this team, reality smacks us in the face.

 

I for one hope that we keep Tyrod and fire Whaley, who is a rank amateur and a sub-par joke of a GM. I do however hope that he keeps us posted with fashion tips. He sure knows how to dress (and destroy a football team).

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great post and great point.

 

You brought up another really important point that hasn't been talked about enough here - the QB decision's impact on the rest of the squad. So true and so important.

[bobobonators]

Looking back, that was a pretty hostile/ rough situation for Losman to be put in.

And in typical Billsy fashion, when faced with adversity just implode.

[dave mcbride]

Stats wise? Yes. As far as being a better QB? No. Bledsoe was a better QB than Tyrod. Tyrod is the superior athlete. It was also a different league back then. Different rules and different schemes. The game as a whole was different just 12 years ago.

Outside of his first 8 games with the Bills, Bledsoe was a garbage player the rest of his time in Buffalo. He was awful in the final 8 games in 2002 as well - 8 tds/10 tds and he cost us winnable games like the one in green bay with his terrible play. He was dreadful in 03 and a mediocre game manager in 04 who benefitted by playing an awful schedule. However, he was a significantly better player than Losman.

Edited February 14, 2017 by dave mcbride

[Coach Tuesday]

I think we had better figure out whether 2003 Bledsoe was better than 2016 Tyrod. It's very important.

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

By most experts he really wasn't, but apparently he was to our guys!

Mayock had him 41st overall, 2nd QB (link)

Walter Football (yeah, I know) had him 85th overall, 6th QB (link)

NFLDraftScout didn't have him in their top 100, which included 7 other QBs (link)

Dan Kadar had him 99th overall, 7th QB (link)

I guess this makes Whaley smarter than all the experts because even though EJ has had a bad career he still has done better than the guy the Giants and Jets drafted. He in my opinion sucks but I would still take him over those other two bums.

[DirtDart]

But if we cut Tyrod and go with Jones, its a rebuild at that point, because no one thinks CJ gives us the best chance at winning games next season.

 

I think that if we see TT cut, the message to the team is clear: See whoever is left in 2018. Because we arent in a position to 'win now' without Tyrod (and most feel that we arent even if we keep him, but its our best shot).

 

The slim hope would be a rookie QB who steps in and kills it. But as you said, most of the Vets will have checked out by that point (and what are the odds Whaley picks him?)

Tie Rod gives us the same chance. Are you all blind? Can't wait for someone to post some irrelevant fancy stats.

 

These players have actually relayed this to him?

Edited February 14, 2017 by DirtDart

[jeffismagic]

Oh no. These great veterans that led us to a brilliant 7-9 finish and have bombed every time their number was called year after year. That's why it's time to ship out the old and build a team that can win.

[DirtDart]

Regarding Bledsoe, he SUCKED his last year here. The receivers were relegated to running short dig routes because he couldn't hit anything else.

We are not going to the SB with TT and KW is never going to see a SB here and probably not a playoff.

I've watched McDermott here ( Carolina) since he started and I don't hate him but his defenses aren't all that.

This is a rebuilding year and I'd rather see a young QB learn on the fly than Orton or Taylor keep us mediocre.

This...god knows we need the cap space to bring in some missing pieces. Tie Rod gives us the same as the last two years, early Tee times.

[Thurman#1]

He told of how he was on the Bills when they dumped Bledsoe and went with Losman. He went on to say that the best players on the team were furious and virtually quit on the team. They knew that there was no chance to win with Losman.

 

He also said that players such as Incog, Glenn, Wood, and others would do the same if Whaley cuts Tyrod and goes with CJ.

 

He went on to list several dumb moves by Whaley (letting go of Hogan, drafting EJ Manuel and other stupid moves). He is NOT impressed with Whaley, nor am I.

 

I guess any time a Bills Fan thinks that it can't get worse with this team, reality smacks us in the face.

 

I for one hope that we keep Tyrod and fire Whaley, who is a rank amateur and a sub-par joke of a GM. I do however hope that he keeps us posted with fashion tips. He sure knows how to dress (and destroy a football team).

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

If the best players "virtually quit on the team," they weren't the best players. The good ones play their best because that's who they are. Give up hope on the team, yeah, plenty of people in bad situations lose hope. But the good ones still give everything they have.

 

And yeah, the team would have much less of a chance to win without Tyrod than with him. NEXT YEAR. And the players should really care about that. But the team management should be looking past it. Their primary focus should be long-term, towards the years when they will actually have a real chance to compete for a championship. Nothing else matters. The players shouldn't be caring about the salary cap. The front office should.

 

I've got no problem with them letting Tyrod go if they do so. It might mean a game or two next year. I don't care.

 

Tucker has often talked about this story before. And one difference between then and now is that the defenses in 2003 and 2004 were terrific, so the team felt they had a real chance to compete. Which IMHO they didn't after Bledsoe lost most of his movement skills to age. But again, you want the players thinking they do have a chance and fighting for it, even if it's not realistic. You don't want the FO kidding themselves in the same way. They should look at things coldly, logically, realistically.

 

About your problems with Whaley, I really agree with most of them. I didn't want him back. Not worth worrying about decisions in the past at this point, though.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Thurman#1

[EasternOHBillsFan]

He told of how he was on the Bills when they dumped Bledsoe and went with Losman. He went on to say that the best players on the team were furious and virtually quit on the team. They knew that there was no chance to win with Losman.

 

He also said that players such as Incog, Glenn, Wood, and others would do the same if Whaley cuts Tyrod and goes with CJ.

 

He went on to list several dumb moves by Whaley (letting go of Hogan, drafting EJ Manuel and other stupid moves). He is NOT impressed with Whaley, nor am I.

 

I guess any time a Bills Fan thinks that it can't get worse with this team, reality smacks us in the face.

 

I for one hope that we keep Tyrod and fire Whaley, who is a rank amateur and a sub-par joke of a GM. I do however hope that he keeps us posted with fashion tips. He sure knows how to dress (and destroy a football team).

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You have NO IDEA what kind of a quarterback Cardale Jones is... ZERO appreciation of him if you compare him with Losman. A slap in the face to someone who is a champion and has the talent to win us a lot of games.

 

I don't care who the GM is... Cardale Jones will prove you wrong.

[Dr.Sack]

You don't give up your QB, to go to a guy in Cardale who was benched his final year at Ohio State and only started 14 games.

[Thurman#1]

No, Tyrod impacted the game (and had far superior stats) in 2016 to Bledsoe in 2004. Bledsoe's 1st 8 games in Buffalo were great but he really was an average to below average QB since about 1997. He made a TON of mistakes and didnt make a ton of plays to offset it. 2004 Drew Bledsoe was not a good QB by any metric. He wasn't good in 2003 either. He averaged about 185 yards a game with 32 TDs and 28 picks in 2003-2004. TT over the last 2 years has 47 TDs and 12 INTs and averages about 249 yards a game. Tyrod did that over 29 games vs. 32 for Bledsoe. We tend to remember people better in hindsight but Bledsoe was not good at all in 2003-2004.

 

 

Tyrod has averaged a bit below 210 yards per game, not 249.

 

Or are you referring to that new Tyrod-Taylor-fans-only stat called "Offensive Yards from Scrimmage Including Positive Pass Yards And Positive Run Yards But Carefully Excluding the Negative Yards that Should Logically Be Subtracted Because of Sacks Except That We Don't Want to Do That Because It Would Make Tyrod Look A Bit Worse" stat.

 

If you're going to combine those, you should include all yards from the guy, which would include subtracting for sacks. Somehow Tyrod's fans love creating the new stat where they add things, but don't want to include anything that would cast him in a worse light.

 

Those are all actually separate stats for a reason. Here's what it really looks like:

 

Running Yards: 572 and 580 for the season over his two years. Highest in the league. He's a terrific runner.

 

Passing Yards: 216.8 and 201.5 per game. Very low. But it's not fair to isolate per game stats because he had fewer attempts than nearly any starter in the league. In fairness to Tyrod, you also have to look at Yards Per Attempt. Tyrod's were 8.3 and 6.9. Very good his first year, and extremely poor this year. A major regression, to 26th in the league this year. Huge regression. Substandard this year.

 

Sack Yards: Worst in the league in times sacked this year, despite far fewer attempts than most QBs. May be because he often left the pocket even when he wasn't under pressure. Not to mention that he generally held the ball till he could actually see that someone had broken open, which meant holding the ball too long sometimes. 212 sack yards in 2015 and 192 this year. Among the worst in the league.

 

 

 

 

 

But Tyrod is an excellent runner.

 

Agreed that Bledsoe was worse than Tyrod in Bledsoe's last two years on the Bills (although some of that might be that Tyrod has an infinitely better run game that forces teams to focus on stopping the run first, while Bledsoe in 2003 and 2004 had a run game that averaged 3.9 YPC both years and had an OL that was much worse). But saying you're better than the 2003 and 2004 Bledsoe is not saying much. Bledsoe's legs were gone, he couldn't even move functionally in the pocket, stepping away from the rush, never mind actually running.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to throw this all at a rather innocuous post reasonably comparing Tyrod and Bledsoe, but that stat that folks are making up by adding together pass and run yards is nonsense unless you're going to look at it all together and then do so for all QBs besides. There is a reason these stats are generally looked at separately.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Thurman#1

[Dragonborn10]

Bledsoe was terrible after the first 8-10 games he was here. He lost to Pittsburgh's back-ups.

Tucker likes to present himself has a smart guy. He may in fact be. But he has never made a football decision in his life.

[KollegeStudnet]

I see the point. Love Tucker. Keeping Tyrod vs. Jones is somewhat a predicament. Not sure if James will be our starter, banking on someone else. Not sure where the FO is going. My only suggestion is rolling with Jones and snagging a veteran.

Veteran starts, Jones learns from the vet.

[Thurman#1]

You don't give up your QB, to go to a guy in Cardale who was benched his final year at Ohio State and only started 14 games.

 

 

 

... if winning that year is your number one priority.

 

... and if you're going to leave salary cap considerations entirely aside which, for good reason, no team would ever do.

 

Otherwise, though, if you're going to consider the long-term drive towards getting a championship more than winning a game or two in a season where the ceiling might be a playoff one-and-out resulting in a poor draft pick, and you're also going to worry about the cap as should always be done ... you might.

 

In any case, there's another possibility ... bringing in another vet who wouldn't be as good as Tyrod but would be vastly cheaper, someone like Hoyer, Glennon, Foles or Barkley. Again, no, they're not likely to be as good. But their cheapness will perhaps more than make up for the difference between maybe 6 - 10 and the 8 - 8 or 9 - 6 and a worse draft pick that Tyrod might get you to. If Cardale needs another year's development, this might be the best option.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Thurman#1

[Dragonborn10]

Tyrod has averaged a bit below 210 yards per game, not 249.

 

Or are you referring to that new Tyrod Taylor fans-only stat called "Offensive Yards from scrimmage including positive pass yards and positive run yards but carefully excluding the negative yards that should logically be taken off from sacks but we don't want to do that because it would make Tyrod look a bit worse" stat.

 

If you're going to combine those, you should include all yards from the guy, which would include subtracting for sacks. Somehow Tyrod's fans love creating the new stat where they add things, but don't want to include anything that would cast him in a worse light.

 

Those are all actually separate stats for a reason. Here's what it really looks like:

 

Running Yards: 572 and 580 for the season over his two years. Highest in the league. He's a terrific runner.

 

Passing Yards: 216.8 and 201.5 per game. Very low. But it's not fair to isolate per game stats because he had fewer attempts than nearly any starter in the league. In fairness to Tyrod, you also have to look at Yards Per Attempt. Tyrod's were 8.3 and 6.9. Very good his first year, and extremely poor this year. A major regression, to 26th in the league this year. Huge regression. Substandard this year.

 

Sack Yards: Worst in the league in times sacked this year, despite far fewer attempts than most QBs. May be because he often left the pocket even when he wasn't under pressure. 212 sack yards in 2015 and 192 this year. Among the worst in the league.

 

 

 

 

 

But Tyrod is an excellent runner.

 

Agreed that Bledsoe was worse than Tyrod in Bledsoe's last two years on the Bills. But that's just not saying much. Bledsoe's legs were gone, he couldn't even move functionally in the pocket, stepping away from the rush, never mind actually running.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to throw this all at a rather innocuous post reasonably comparing Tyrod and Bledsoe, but that stat that folks are making up by adding together pass and run yards is nonsense unless you're going to look at it all together and then do so for all QBs besides. There is a reason these stats are generally looked at separately.

 

Excellent post. I agree sack yardage should count against TT and his sacks allowed number climbed in 2016.

 

But even the most ardent critics of TT, can't look at 2015 and 2016 statistics without some mention of the WR injury situation. The loss of talent on the outside had a negative effect on the entire offense. Even losing Woods' downfield blocking hurt.

 

The eyeball test tells me TT was no better in 2016 and that is a huge disappointment. I do not see the regression in his play that the statistics show. Therefore I am inclined to believe a significant component of the statistics regression is related to other factors.

 

That said, had the defense not completely collapsed against Oakland and Seattle, the Bills would have been playing home games in December with much greater chance at making the playoffs. Even an average defense gets the Bills to the divisional round of the playoffs in 2016. Rex destroyed a top 5 defense in two years. McDermott, the return to the 4-3, and along with TT at QB will make the division title up for grabs until after Thanksgiving.

[metzelaars_lives]

Anyone citing "letting go of Hogan" as an example of Whaley's incompetence, I kind of have a tough time taking seriously. I don't think it's an outrageous viewpoint to be anti-Whaley but it's hard to argue he hasn't made more good moves than bad ones if you factor in drafting, FA signings/who he let go and trades.

[Thurman#1]

By most experts he really wasn't, but apparently he was to our guys!

Mayock had him 41st overall, 2nd QB (link)

Walter Football (yeah, I know) had him 85th overall, 6th QB (link)

NFLDraftScout didn't have him in their top 100, which included 7 other QBs (link)

Dan Kadar had him 99th overall, 7th QB (link)

 

 

Gil Brandt had him #27.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000162920/article/hot-100-25-luke-joeckel-ziggy-ansah-still-top-2013-draft-class

 

 

Brooks had him #30.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d828bf038/article/2013-nfl-draft-uscs-barkley-woods-among-top-30-prospects

 

 

NFLDraftScout had him 40th

 

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=83592&draftyear=2013&genpos=qb

 

 

 

There were plenty of people who had Manuel earlyish 2nd or late 1st near the draft.

 

Excellent post. I agree sack yardage should count against TT and his sacks allowed number climbed in 2016.

 

But even the most ardent critics of TT, can't look at 2015 and 2016 statistics without some mention of the WR injury situation. The loss of talent on the outside had a negative effect on the entire offense. Even losing Woods' downfield blocking hurt.

 

The eyeball test tells me TT was no better in 2016 and that is a huge disappointment. I do not see the regression in his play that the statistics show. Therefore I am inclined to believe a significant component of the statistics regression is related to other factors.

 

That said, had the defense not completely collapsed against Oakland and Seattle, the Bills would have been playing home games in December with much greater chance at making the playoffs. Even an average defense gets the Bills to the divisional round of the playoffs in 2016. Rex destroyed a top 5 defense in two years. McDermott, the return to the 4-3, and along with TT at QB will make the division title up for grabs until after Thanksgiving.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that such a large amount of the regression was caused by the other factors you're referring to. IMHO it was mostly from defenses simply figuring out what the Bills were doing to protect Tyrod by simplifying the playbook. The longer you have to do that stuff, the easier job defenses have in scheming against him. (Again, when Roman was let go, one of the things Lynn said he would do to make things better was to cut back the playbook and "simplify the reads." That makes things easier on the QB, but also the defenses.)

 

The folks who blame this on WR problems have something of a point. We did have lower level WRs. But I went and watched five mid-season games without Sammy on the All-22 and I saw guys open on almost every single play. Yeah, Sammy might have been more open, and yeah teams might have defended us differently with Sammy on the field ... but guys were open.

 

And the folks citing the WRs as an excuse never mention the huge advantage given Tyrod in our tremendous run game. Teams were scheming to take the run away from us. They didn't worry much about our pass game, and for good reason. Again, we heard it from more than one team, "Make him play quarterback."

Edited February 14, 2017 by Thurman#1

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

Tyrod has averaged a bit below 210 yards per game, not 249.

 

Or are you referring to that new Tyrod-Taylor-fans-only stat called "Offensive Yards from Scrimmage Including Positive Pass Yards And Positive Run Yards But Carefully Excluding the Negative Yards that Should Logically Be Subtracted Because of Sacks Except That We Don't Want to Do That Because It Would Make Tyrod Look A Bit Worse" stat.

 

If you're going to combine those, you should include all yards from the guy, which would include subtracting for sacks. Somehow Tyrod's fans love creating the new stat where they add things, but don't want to include anything that would cast him in a worse light.

 

Those are all actually separate stats for a reason. Here's what it really looks like:

 

Running Yards: 572 and 580 for the season over his two years. Highest in the league. He's a terrific runner.

 

Passing Yards: 216.8 and 201.5 per game. Very low. But it's not fair to isolate per game stats because he had fewer attempts than nearly any starter in the league. In fairness to Tyrod, you also have to look at Yards Per Attempt. Tyrod's were 8.3 and 6.9. Very good his first year, and extremely poor this year. A major regression, to 26th in the league this year. Huge regression. Substandard this year.

 

Sack Yards: Worst in the league in times sacked this year, despite far fewer attempts than most QBs. May be because he often left the pocket even when he wasn't under pressure. Not to mention that he generally held the ball till he could actually see that someone had broken open, which meant holding the ball too long sometimes. 212 sack yards in 2015 and 192 this year. Among the worst in the league.

 

 

 

 

 

But Tyrod is an excellent runner.

 

Agreed that Bledsoe was worse than Tyrod in Bledsoe's last two years on the Bills (although some of that might be that Tyrod has an infinitely better run game that forces teams to focus on stopping the run first, while Bledsoe in 2003 and 2004 had a run game that averaged 3.9 YPC both years and had an OL that was much worse). But saying you're better than the 2003 and 2004 Bledsoe is not saying much. Bledsoe's legs were gone, he couldn't even move functionally in the pocket, stepping away from the rush, never mind actually running.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to throw this all at a rather innocuous post reasonably comparing Tyrod and Bledsoe, but that stat that folks are making up by adding together pass and run yards is nonsense unless you're going to look at it all together and then do so for all QBs besides. There is a reason these stats are generally looked at separately.

 

1) Watkins and Hogan had been the downfield receivers in 2015 and were replaced by fringe NFL WR this year.........and even THEIR availability was limited due to injury.

 

2) A little perspective........Russell Wilson has AVERAGED 41 sacks and 255 lost sack yards per year over his 5 year career.......including a league worst 293 yards lost this year. The style of play........keeping plays alive......is conducive to some big losses.........but the upside is that it leads to extended drives, big plays and TD's that otherwise get left on the table. Many of those sacks amount to nothing more than tackles for loss and FWIW.......LeSean McCoy lead NFL RB's in yardage lost.

[BADOLBILZ]

Anyone citing "letting go of Hogan" as an example of Whaley's incompetence, I kind of have a tough time taking seriously. I don't think it's an outrageous viewpoint to be anti-Whaley but it's hard to argue he hasn't made more good moves than bad ones if you factor in drafting, FA signings/who he let go and trades.

 

 

Whaley is decidedly average........ASIDE from a poor eye for QB play.....which leaves him "mediocre".

 

"Letting go of Hogan" wasn't the case...........they just low tendered him and tried to replace him with Leonard Hankerson and Greg Little.

 

There is a reason that you don't hear the phrase "good WR are a dime-a-dozen"............because they aren't.

 

Hogan wasn't worth $4.5M per year to the Bills........but he could have been had for half that on a one year deal if given a protective tender.

 

The money they saved on the tender difference.....between compensation and none......they ended up burning desperately trying to get Percy Harvin out of retirement when even the scrubs were hitting IR.

 

Not having Hogan left the depth chart with just two WR who would qualify as top 5 WR on most teams going into the season...........so when Watkins went down there wasn't anything in reserve.

Edited February 14, 2017 by #BADOL

[Thurman#1]

 

1) Watkins and Hogan had been the downfield receivers in 2015 and were replaced by fringe NFL WR this year.........and even THEIR availability was limited due to injury.

 

2) A little perspective........Russell Wilson has AVERAGED 41 sacks and 255 lost sack yards per year over his 5 year career.......including a league worst 293 yards lost this year. The style of play........keeping plays alive......is conducive to some big losses.........but the upside is that it leads to extended drives, big plays and TD's that otherwise get left on the table. Many of those sacks amount to nothing more than tackles for loss and FWIW.......LeSean McCoy lead NFL RB's in yardage lost.

 

 

 

None of this in any way rebuts anything I said. Doesn't even address it except for using some of the same words, such as "sacks" and "wide recievers."

 

If you have anything that actually addresses my posts, go ahead and reply to me.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and if you're trying to support Tyrod, you might not want to compare him to Russell Wilson. For the obvious reason that though they're stylistically similary, Wilson is a ton better. Wilson can both run and pass at a very high level.

 

As for the McCoy comparison, thanks for making my point. What happens to McCoy's yardage losses? Are they left out of his totals the way people try to leave out the sacks yardage from Tyrod's totals when they come up with the not-an-actual-stat yardage per game totals of 249 yards per game? Nope. McCoy's lost yardage is added right into his totals. But we can't put Tyrod's in because ... because ... well, we just can't.

 

Agree with you on Hogan, though. It was a bad move.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Thurman#1

[Pbomb]

You don't give up your QB, to go to a guy in Cardale who was benched his final year at Ohio State and only started 14 games.

dobyou even know why he was benched

Anyone citing "letting go of Hogan" as an example of Whaley's incompetence, I kind of have a tough time taking seriously. I don't think it's an outrageous viewpoint to be anti-Whaley but it's hard to argue he hasn't made more good moves than bad ones if you factor in drafting, FA signings/who he let go and trades.

i agree, just look at hogans 2 games against the bills, the qb makes him way better just like every wr

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Tyrod has averaged a bit below 210 yards per game, not 249.

 

Or are you referring to that new Tyrod-Taylor-fans-only stat called "Offensive Yards from Scrimmage Including Positive Pass Yards And Positive Run Yards But Carefully Excluding the Negative Yards that Should Logically Be Subtracted Because of Sacks Except That We Don't Want to Do That Because It Would Make Tyrod Look A Bit Worse" stat.

 

If you're going to combine those, you should include all yards from the guy, which would include subtracting for sacks. Somehow Tyrod's fans love creating the new stat where they add things, but don't want to include anything that would cast him in a worse light.

 

Those are all actually separate stats for a reason. Here's what it really looks like:

 

Running Yards: 572 and 580 for the season over his two years. Highest in the league. He's a terrific runner.

 

Passing Yards: 216.8 and 201.5 per game. Very low. But it's not fair to isolate per game stats because he had fewer attempts than nearly any starter in the league. In fairness to Tyrod, you also have to look at Yards Per Attempt. Tyrod's were 8.3 and 6.9. Very good his first year, and extremely poor this year. A major regression, to 26th in the league this year. Huge regression. Substandard this year.

 

Sack Yards: Worst in the league in times sacked this year, despite far fewer attempts than most QBs. May be because he often left the pocket even when he wasn't under pressure. Not to mention that he generally held the ball till he could actually see that someone had broken open, which meant holding the ball too long sometimes. 212 sack yards in 2015 and 192 this year. Among the worst in the league.

 

 

 

 

 

But Tyrod is an excellent runner.

 

Agreed that Bledsoe was worse than Tyrod in Bledsoe's last two years on the Bills (although some of that might be that Tyrod has an infinitely better run game that forces teams to focus on stopping the run first, while Bledsoe in 2003 and 2004 had a run game that averaged 3.9 YPC both years and had an OL that was much worse). But saying you're better than the 2003 and 2004 Bledsoe is not saying much. Bledsoe's legs were gone, he couldn't even move functionally in the pocket, stepping away from the rush, never mind actually running.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to throw this all at a rather innocuous post reasonably comparing Tyrod and Bledsoe, but that stat that folks are making up by adding together pass and run yards is nonsense unless you're going to look at it all together and then do so for all QBs besides. There is a reason these stats are generally looked at separately.

I factored in the rushing stats because they need to be factored in. It's not some way of trying to manipulate numbers. When you have a guy that he's you 40+ yards a game on the ground he is impacting the game. It is a part of his job. I actually think that you are right that the sack yards should be factored in as well. It needs to be done across the board though applied to all other QBs when comparing them. That's definitely fair. We should factor in lost fumbles too.

 

1) Watkins and Hogan had been the downfield receivers in 2015 and were replaced by fringe NFL WR this year.........and even THEIR availability was limited due to injury.

 

2) A little perspective........Russell Wilson has AVERAGED 41 sacks and 255 lost sack yards per year over his 5 year career.......including a league worst 293 yards lost this year. The style of play........keeping plays alive......is conducive to some big losses.........but the upside is that it leads to extended drives, big plays and TD's that otherwise get left on the table. Many of those sacks amount to nothing more than tackles for loss and FWIW.......LeSean McCoy lead NFL RB's in yardage lost.

Good points Badol, Barry Sanders was the king of that.

[jester43]

He told of how he was on the Bills when they dumped Bledsoe and went with Losman. He went on to say that the best players on the team were furious and virtually quit on the team. They knew that there was no chance to win with Losman.

 

He also said that players such as Incog, Glenn, Wood, and others would do the same if Whaley cuts Tyrod and goes with CJ.

 

He went on to list several dumb moves by Whaley (letting go of Hogan, drafting EJ Manuel and other stupid moves). He is NOT impressed with Whaley, nor am I.

 

I guess any time a Bills Fan thinks that it can't get worse with this team, reality smacks us in the face.

 

I for one hope that we keep Tyrod and fire Whaley, who is a rank amateur and a sub-par joke of a GM. I do however hope that he keeps us posted with fashion tips. He sure knows how to dress (and destroy a football team).

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bravo.

 

 

Also proves what a Mr. Magoo our owner is...sad to say, because he's honestly trying, which is something Ralph rarely did.

[auburnbillsbacker]

Yeah, Tyrod doesnt need to take a pay cut.

 

Letting go of Hogan was nothing. I feel like people are overreacting to that simply because he made some good plays with the Pats.

I completely agree. If we would have given him the higher tenure he would have been a Bill for another season, but we still miss the playoffs. He would then become a free agent in March and would leave. Letting him walk literally did nothing. Now to be fair, the Bills thought they might make the playoffs, so it was a mistake, but a mistake that meant nothing.

[boater]

OBD = Groundhog Day

TBD / TSW QB Thread = Groundhog Hour

[eball]

Outside of his first 8 games with the Bills, Bledsoe was a garbage player the rest of his time in Buffalo. He was awful in the final 8 games in 2002 as well - 8 tds/10 tds and he cost us winnable games like the one in green bay with his terrible play. He was dreadful in 03 and a mediocre game manager in 04 who benefitted by playing an awful schedule. However, he was a significantly better player than Losman.

 

All true. At the time, however, the "hope" of Losman was still fresh and I don't think most fans were unhappy with the decision. Obviously the players (according to Ross) knew better.

 

I do believe there could be something of a player "revolt" if Tyrod is released. Does anyone else think perhaps there is some research going on behind the scenes to gauge how the team would react before they (McD and Whales) make the final decision?

[CommonCents]

 

All true. At the time, however, the "hope" of Losman was still fresh and I don't think most fans were unhappy with the decision. Obviously the players (according to Ross) knew better.

 

I do believe there could be something of a player "revolt" if Tyrod is released. Does anyone else think perhaps there is some research going on behind the scenes to gauge how the team would react before they (McD and Whales) make the final decision?

Revolt like how? Wear headphones during meetings and half ass it the majority of the time? Ignore Seth Joyner whilst he is trying to get you up to speed? Spend the offseason on the weed and PS4?

 

I hope the new coach is looking for ways to break up the lax behavior instead of making decisions as to not upset these bozos.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

All true. At the time, however, the "hope" of Losman was still fresh and I don't think most fans were unhappy with the decision. Obviously the players (according to Ross) knew better.

 

I do believe there could be something of a player "revolt" if Tyrod is released. Does anyone else think perhaps there is some research going on behind the scenes to gauge how the team would react before they (McD and Whales) make the final decision?

My feeling is that they know what they want to do already at this point. If the Bills are going to keep him they are going to try to renegotiate. If they are going to get rid of him they will try to trade him in that 2 day window. I suspect that the decision is made but we are a couple of weeks away from finding out.

[BuffaloHokie13]

 

 

Tyrod has averaged a bit below 210 yards per game, not 249.

 

Or are you referring to that new Tyrod-Taylor-fans-only stat called "Offensive Yards from Scrimmage Including Positive Pass Yards And Positive Run Yards But Carefully Excluding the Negative Yards that Should Logically Be Subtracted Because of Sacks Except That We Don't Want to Do That Because It Would Make Tyrod Look A Bit Worse" stat.

 

If you're going to combine those, you should include all yards from the guy, which would include subtracting for sacks. Somehow Tyrod's fans love creating the new stat where they add things, but don't want to include anything that would cast him in a worse light.

 

Those are all actually separate stats for a reason. Here's what it really looks like:

 

Running Yards: 572 and 580 for the season over his two years. Highest in the league. He's a terrific runner.

 

Passing Yards: 216.8 and 201.5 per game. Very low. But it's not fair to isolate per game stats because he had fewer attempts than nearly any starter in the league. In fairness to Tyrod, you also have to look at Yards Per Attempt. Tyrod's were 8.3 and 6.9. Very good his first year, and extremely poor this year. A major regression, to 26th in the league this year. Huge regression. Substandard this year.

 

Sack Yards: Worst in the league in times sacked this year, despite far fewer attempts than most QBs. May be because he often left the pocket even when he wasn't under pressure. Not to mention that he generally held the ball till he could actually see that someone had broken open, which meant holding the ball too long sometimes. 212 sack yards in 2015 and 192 this year. Among the worst in the league.

 

But Tyrod is an excellent runner.

 

Agreed that Bledsoe was worse than Tyrod in Bledsoe's last two years on the Bills (although some of that might be that Tyrod has an infinitely better run game that forces teams to focus on stopping the run first, while Bledsoe in 2003 and 2004 had a run game that averaged 3.9 YPC both years and had an OL that was much worse). But saying you're better than the 2003 and 2004 Bledsoe is not saying much. Bledsoe's legs were gone, he couldn't even move functionally in the pocket, stepping away from the rush, never mind actually running.

 

Sorry to throw this all at a rather innocuous post reasonably comparing Tyrod and Bledsoe, but that stat that folks are making up by adding together pass and run yards is nonsense unless you're going to look at it all together and then do so for all QBs besides. There is a reason these stats are generally looked at separately.

That extremely poor 6.9 YPA put him 21st, not 26th, and ahead of Cam Newton (22), Eli Manning (25), Joe Flacco (27), Blake Bortles (28), and Carson Wentz (29).

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt

 

The very good 2015 was actually 7.99 YPA, which put him 5th in the league that year.

 

Over his 2 years starting his YPA is 7.42, which I find more than respectable.

Edited February 14, 2017 by BuffaloHokie13

[PromoTheRobot]

we paid Percy Harding how much?! We signed two street free agents in hunter and Tate, and gave valuable snaps to some guy named Walt Powell... oh, and Goodwin still sucks... our hogan replacement was hurt all year in salas

 

But yeah, we don't need hogan... and Whaley deserves no blame for 7-9.

Who's Percy Harding?