What a difference the Ownership Makes

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Interesting D&C article linked on TBD home page

 

I was just reflecting on what a huge difference the ownership makes. We may or may not win - so many unknown factors. But no one can say that in bringing in Roman and his offense, we didn't bring in the personnel to execute his offense. (Whether all the personnel pan out is another question)

 

Remember when we brought in Chan Gailey and George Edwards, Edwards wanted to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and around the league and the press were scoffing because "they don't have the personnel for it". We were carrying DLmen like John McCargo, Kellen Heard, and Torell Troup, and LB Aaron Maybin and Akin Ayodele. In changing the D, we just announced the change - there really wasn't a coordinated, full-press effort to draft and sign FA suitable to execute it.

 

What a difference this year in the approach, with a full-court press to upgrade through both FA signings and draft at TE, Fullback, OL, QB, and the speedbird WR.

[birdog1960]

Interesting D&C article linked on TBD home page

 

I was just reflecting on what a huge difference the ownership makes. We may or may not win - so many unknown factors. But no one can say that in bringing in Roman and his offense, we didn't bring in the personnel to execute his offense. (Whether all the personnel pan out is another question)

 

Remember when we brought in Chan Gailey and George Edwards, Edwards wanted to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and around the league and the press were scoffing because "they don't have the personnel for it". We were carrying DLmen like John McCargo, Kellen Heard, and Torell Troup, and LB Aaron Maybin and Akin Ayodele. In changing the D, we just announced the change - there really wasn't a coordinated, full-press effort to draft and sign FA suitable to execute it.

 

What a difference this year in the approach, with a full-court press to upgrade through both FA signings and draft at TE, Fullback, OL, QB, and the speedbird WR.

3-2-1..cue up the ralph wilson defenders. the apologists will be all over you for this. but yeah. the difference is massive and was also immediate. 3rd tier coaches, build through he draft and cash to cap were shorthand for "were content losing". not sure it translates to playoffs this year, however. if not, I hope the new ownership sees the wisdom in riding a new regime horse for gm.

[T master]

And with the way that Whaley & company are brining in centers E. Wood should be paying attention because once these guys get up to speed he could be the next change along the line.

 

Not only to upgrade but to add some cap room to sign the others that are up for a new contract !

[TSOL]

Remember the home opener last year, right after Pegula purchased the team. The RV lots were full for three days before the game. Was quite an event! Spanked the crap out of Miami as well, good times.

[PromoTheRobot]

3-2-1..cue up the ralph wilson defenders. the apologists will be all over you for this. but yeah. the difference is massive and was also immediate. 3rd tier coaches, build through he draft and cash to cap were shorthand for "were content losing". not sure it translates to playoffs this year, however. if not, I hope the new ownership sees the wisdom in riding a new regime horse for gm.

Calm down, champ. No one defends how Ralph ran the team. We praise him for his loyalty to WNY and his generosity after his passing. That's not an endorsement of his football management skills.

[birdog1960]

Calm down, champ. No one defends how Ralph ran the team. We praise him for his loyalty to WNY and his generosity after his passing. That's not an endorsement of his football management skills.

not how I remember the discussions sport, but reasonable minds can disagree.

[thebandit27]

not how I remember the discussions sport, but reasonable minds can disagree.

 

Actually, that's exactly how I remember it.

 

People defended Ralph from ad hominem attacks that were better aimed at his poor decisions, not at his unwillingness to spend or his (lack of) desire to win.

[BuffaloBill]

Interesting D&C article linked on TBD home page

 

I was just reflecting on what a huge difference the ownership makes. We may or may not win - so many unknown factors. But no one can say that in bringing in Roman and his offense, we didn't bring in the personnel to execute his offense. (Whether all the personnel pan out is another question)

 

Remember when we brought in Chan Gailey and George Edwards, Edwards wanted to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and around the league and the press were scoffing because "they don't have the personnel for it". We were carrying DLmen like John McCargo, Kellen Heard, and Torell Troup, and LB Aaron Maybin and Akin Ayodele. In changing the D, we just announced the change - there really wasn't a coordinated, full-press effort to draft and sign FA suitable to execute it.

 

What a difference this year in the approach, with a full-court press to upgrade through both FA signings and draft at TE, Fullback, OL, QB, and the speedbird WR.

Right or wrong Whaley has been huge in all of the moves so it goes beyond just the owner. Whaley has made some big bets but this roster outside of proving TT can play at a high level looks as strong as any in a long, long time.

[birdog1960]

 

Actually, that's exactly how I remember it.

 

People defended Ralph from ad hominem attacks that were better aimed at his poor decisions, not at his unwillingness to spend or his (lack of) desire to win.

right on cue. remarkable!

isn't the op pointing out exactly this by citing high profile, expensive player signings and coaches versus coaches and players like those he named? do you disagree?

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Great post and I agree!

 

 

 

CBF

[thebandit27]

right on cue. remarkable!

isn't the op pointing out exactly this by citing high profile, expensive player signings and coaches versus coaches and players like those he named? do you disagree?

 

I think the OP is pointing more toward the front office showing a willingness to work with the coaches; it has nothing to do with spending.

 

If it did, we wouldn't have seen total contract debacles with guys like Docker, Walker, Kelsay, etc.

 

It was poor choices in spending, not unwillingness.

 

People like to point to spending on coaching, but Ralph offered a boatload to Shanahan, who turned it down. He also spent big to bring in Donahoe.

 

It wasn't a lack of willingness; it was poor decisions.

[BillsVet]

It's amazing what happens when business/marketing/PR and their people aren't as dominant in the decision making process. Now with football people making personnel decisions, the product is improved and the increase in business follows that.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

It wasn't a lack of willingness; it was poor decisions.

 

Whatever gets you through the night.

[thebandit27]

 

Whatever gets you through the night.

That's a very odd response that neither contradicts my point nor provides any type of context whatsoever.

 

EDIT:

 

You know what? Forget it. Respond via PM if you want to argue about Ralph, because Hopeful has a nice thread here about the quality of the current regime, and I don't want to threadjack it.

Edited September 8, 2015 by thebandit27

[birdog1960]

That's a very odd response that neither contradicts my point nor provides any type of context whatsoever.

 

EDIT:

 

You know what? Forget it. Respond via PM if you want to argue about Ralph, because Hopeful has a nice thread here about the quality of the current regime, and I don't want to threadjack it.

the title is "difference in ownership" and the subtitle is "pegulas, cap and coaching". a discussion on wilson and spending is germane. but you're right in that it's been done many times before. the difference is that now we have a real time, real life comparison to reference.

[ALLEN1QB]

I agree 100% with Ralph is was same crap every year. Been a fan for a long time so nice to have something to cheer for.

[K-9]

It's amazing what happens when business/marketing/PR and their people aren't as dominant in the decision making process. Now with football people making personnel decisions, the product is improved and the increase in business follows that.

The PR/Marketing people never made personnel decisions.

 

What we have now is simply the removal of a mandated operational budget. Pegula simply doesn't impose one.

 

I won't apologize for Mr. Wilson as he was the first to admit that his decisions were often bad ones.

 

I will say that the idea of him not being willing to spend money is not accurate. He had no problem spending at or near the top for players and coaches alike during his tenure. From Rauch to Saban II to Knox to Levy along with the dollars he was willing to throw at Shanahan, there are examples of his willingness to spend on coaches. The biggest factor in not landing coaches was our lack of talent, especially at the QB position, over the years.

 

There are numerous players as well over the years. We have had several top-paid players at their positions.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[machine gun kelly]

Ralph did a lot right (bringing the team here, keeping the team here, building a strong team in the 80's and 90's), and did a lot wrong (lack of spending on coaching, front office, and making too many quick decisions on changing the guard too fast). At the end of the day, I'm so happy for our new organization, the Pegulas, and the hope with an experienced staff, and a 5 year deal for Rex, we will build for long term success.

 

It's kind of cool when we lock up Dareus (we will with the Fred and Cassel deals), we should have a Bills defense that is top 5 3 or less for the next three years. If we can make TT into even a 12-16 QB and a great running game, we will finally be back to the playoffs year after year.

[birdog1960]

The PR/Marketing people never made personnel decisions.

 

What we have now is simply the removal of a mandated operational budget. Pegula simply doesn't impose one.

 

I won't apologize for Mr. Wilson as he was the first to admit that his decisions were often bad ones.

 

I will say that the idea of him not being willing to spend money is not accurate. He had no problem spending at or near the top for players and coaches alike during his tenure. From Rauch to Saban II to Knox to Levy along with the dollars he was willing to throw at Shanahan, there are examples of his willingness to spend on coaches. The biggest factor in not landing coaches was our lack of talent, especially at the QB position, over the years.

 

There are numerous players as well over the years. We have had several top-paid players at their positions.

 

GO BILLS!!!

how do you reconcile these two things? if the mandated operational budget wasn't a hindrance to winning, then why even mention it?

Edited September 8, 2015 by birdog1960

[vegas55]

Oh do you mean that Pegula is exceeding the "standard" that Ralph set. In truth and in fact Wilson has to go down as one of the worst owners in NFL history. For the vast majority of his time as owner his team was a loser and a laughingstock. Read Jim Kelly's book and his decision to sign with USFL, based on the fact that after 20+ years of Ralph's ownership, the franchise was a mess. The only owner in NFL history to lose the number one overall draft pick to THE Canadian Football league. Would not pay for coaches. Threatened to move to Seattle if the taxpayers would not build a stadium for him. At 80+ years old, after having made one billion dollars on this franchise, gives up competitive advantage and moves games to Toronto so he can squeeze out an extra 10 million in revenue, as if he needed it.

 

Mr Pegula, the bar has not been set very far. Wilson is beloved by many on this board and in this city, despite a clear record of incompetence and failure.

[blzrul]

Ralph was old school; he had some success, obviously but I think he ran out of steam in the last 10-15 years.

 

I like Kim and Terry, if only because the team will never leave. I was excited about Rex, but he's making me a little nervous. He likes to tinker too much, if he would stick to defense that would be fine. I question some of his decisions on offense. But, we'll see what happens. After suffering through Dick Jauron, Gregg Williams, Mike Mularkey and a nameless rabble of others, Rex is still a breath of fresh air. More in the Glanville mold than the Levy mold

[K-9]

how do you reconcile these two things? if the mandated operational budget wasn't a hindrance to winning, then why even mention it?

Look, I do not want to digress into a futile discussion here. My point is simply that there were numerous occasions that Mr. Wilson spent at or near top dollar on the very things he is accused of not spending money on. This doesn't conflict at all that he preferred to adhere to an operational budget, regardless. That budget was in effect when he made Mario the highest paid at his position only a few years ago, for instance.

 

How about we stop kicking this tired horse and look forward to the Pegula era?

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited September 8, 2015 by K-9

[8-8 Forever?]

 

Actually, that's exactly how I remember it.

 

People defended Ralph from ad hominem attacks that were better aimed at his poor decisions, not at his unwillingness to spend or his (lack of) desire to win.

Ralph had great desire to win, but never figured out/ acknowledged what it took to win. By the time he figured it out, he got very old and during the countdown even if he tried to do what was necessary personnel and players weren't going to chance it. It's ok , he saved the team, blah blah, but the past 10 years had no choice but to suck while the whole league was on "Ralph-watch". Sucks, but it was what it was. All good now. Permanent ownership back in place with all the openings it creates. go bills.

Edited September 8, 2015 by 8and8-->NoMore

[birdog1960]

Look, I do not want to digress into a futile discussion here. My point is simply that there were numerous occasions that Mr. Wilson spent at or near top dollar on the very things he is accused of not spending money on. This doesn't conflict at all that he preferred to adhere to an operational budget, regardless. That budget was in effect when he made Mario the highest paid at his position only a few years ago, for instance.

 

How about we stop kicking this tired horse and look forward to the Pegula era?

 

GO BILLS!!!

it matters because it was state of the franchise forever. and now, thank goodness, it appears it is not.

 

I like the restaurant analogy. the pegulas have decided they want a top notch restaurant. now. they've paid for a top chef, a better kitchen staff, a new and much more selective wine list and many of the chairs and tables have been upgraded. all at once.

 

wilson would add the occasional good bottle of wine and even had a decent chef on occasion but he would never do enough at once or on a sustained basis to ever be the best. the pegulas seem willing to commit to that whatever it takes. thankfully, I don't see them ever hiring a chan gailey level chef.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

No kidding.

[Chandler#81]

..and to the article about Patriot* cheating -they picked on Bills coaches by name for being too naive to conceal their calls. Hard to say we deserved it, but we did, kinda..

Ralph WAS cheap!

[vorpma]

Calm down, champ. No one defends how Ralph ran the team. We praise him for his loyalty to WNY and his generosity after his passing. That's not an endorsement of his football management skills.

Good post and very accurate. We may or may not make the playoffs this year but you cannot deny effort.

Ralph was old school; he had some success, obviously but I think he ran out of steam in the last 10-15 years.

 

I like Kim and Terry, if only because the team will never leave. I was excited about Rex, but he's making me a little nervous. He likes to tinker too much, if he would stick to defense that would be fine. I question some of his decisions on offense. But, we'll see what happens. After suffering through Dick Jauron, Gregg Williams, Mike Mularkey and a nameless rabble of others, Rex is still a breath of fresh air. More in the Glanville mold than the Levy mold

I have more interest this year than in the last ten years!

[Rico]

Oh do you mean that Pegula is exceeding the "standard" that Ralph set. In truth and in fact Wilson has to go down as one of the worst owners in NFL history. For the vast majority of his time as owner his team was a loser and a laughingstock. Read Jim Kelly's book and his decision to sign with USFL, based on the fact that after 20+ years of Ralph's ownership, the franchise was a mess. The only owner in NFL history to lose the number one overall draft pick to THE Canadian Football league. Would not pay for coaches. Threatened to move to Seattle if the taxpayers would not build a stadium for him. At 80+ years old, after having made one billion dollars on this franchise, gives up competitive advantage and moves games to Toronto so he can squeeze out an extra 10 million in revenue, as if he needed it.

 

Mr Pegula, the bar has not been set very far. Wilson is beloved by many on this board and in this city, despite a clear record of incompetence and failure.

[JohnC]

When Pegula took over the Sabres he acted with vigor in throwing money around and making expensive acquisitions. He even got personally involved in some high end free agent player deals. There were some obvious rookie owner mistakes. In addition, there was some instability in the organizational structure leading into internal conflicts as demonstrated by the LaFontaine departure (never fully explained).

 

Pegula learned from his mistakes. He hired a new GM in Murray( ironically identified by LaFontaine) and allowed him to hire his staff and create the roadmap for building a serious team. After "deliberately" being bottom feeders and using the draft to acquire some top young talent the franchise is on an upward trajectory.

 

The lessons he learned with the Sabres are being applied to the Bills. Hire good people, give them the resources to do their jobs, and hold them accountable. That same format is happening with the Bills.

 

I don't want to get into the Ralph Wilson argument any longer. From a football standpoint what is obvious is obvious. But if it is fair game to point out his flaws let's give him credit for some of the things he did that helped this franchise turn things around. At the end of his tenure when he was frail and ailing it was under his regime when the slow moving turnaround occurred. The pivotal transaction was when he elevated Russ Brandon. Nix was hired by Wilson. It was Nix who brought in Whaley.

 

In my mind Nix was at best just an average GM. But he was the person most responsible in steering this franchise in the right direction. Buddy was self-effacing and had the confidence to groom the younger Whaley as his successor without feeling threatened. That doesn't often happen in any line of work.

 

I'm very confident that this franchise has stepped out of the archaic world of the old system and is now an active actor in the modern world of running a franchise.

 

What has been critically said about the former owner has been said many times over. Let's appreciate how he handled the ownership change and appreciate this new owner and the bright future.

[PromoTheRobot]

Ralph's problem the last 20 years or so was not so much spending as no one good would come here. Was it the weather, the losing culture, Ralph's meddling, family members put in scouting positions, all of the above? Managers, coaches and players, if they had a choice, stayed away from the Bills. So we ended up with a second-rate front office and coaching staff. And they few times Ralph was convinced to open the wallet, we didn't spend wisely.

[PlayoffsPlease]

Wow. The last gasp of the Ralph Wilson era resulted in

 

Kyle Williams, Mario Williams, Marcel Dareus, Jerry Hughes, Aaron Williams, Leodis McKelvin. In other words every important element of the best unit by far on the team.

 

Nix/Whaley/Brandon were not able to figure out how to hire a competent coach. Gailey and Marrone were terrible choices from the get go. Rex Ryan may turn out better. But its also possible the Bills have owned the Jets the last couple of years because Ryan isn't that great. Lets not be counting chickens before they hatch.

[John from Riverside]

I am absolutely NOT going to digress into talking crap about Ralph WIlson....who through all his faults made sure that that Buffalo still has the bills.....

 

God bless you Mr. Wilson

 

I will say......going forward that a big difference in ownership style is making sure the coaching improved by putting money in that direction.....and look forward to a return to prosperity.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Interesting D&C article linked on TBD home page

 

I was just reflecting on what a huge difference the ownership makes. We may or may not win - so many unknown factors. But no one can say that in bringing in Roman and his offense, we didn't bring in the personnel to execute his offense. (Whether all the personnel pan out is another question)

 

Remember when we brought in Chan Gailey and George Edwards, Edwards wanted to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and around the league and the press were scoffing because "they don't have the personnel for it". We were carrying DLmen like Heard, and Torell Troup, and LB Aaron Maybin and Akin Ayodele. In changing the D, we just announced the change - there really wasn't a coordinated, full-press effort to draft and sign FA suitable to execute it.John McCargo, Kellen

 

What a difference this year in the approach, with a full-court press to upgrade through both FA signings and draft at TE, Fullback, OL, QB, and the speedbird WR.

 

 

Holy don't remind me

[mannc]

The PR/Marketing people never made personnel decisions.

 

What we have now is simply the removal of a mandated operational budget. Pegula simply doesn't impose one.

 

I won't apologize for Mr. Wilson as he was the first to admit that his decisions were often bad ones.

 

I will say that the idea of him not being willing to spend money is not accurate. He had no problem spending at or near the top for players and coaches alike during his tenure. From Rauch to Saban II to Knox to Levy along with the dollars he was willing to throw at Shanahan, there are examples of his willingness to spend on coaches. The biggest factor in not landing coaches was our lack of talent, especially at the QB position, over the years.

 

There are numerous players as well over the years. We have had several top-paid players at their positions.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Read Polian's book, where he describes the appalling state of the Billls' organization in the mid-80s. Football decisions were absolutely being dictated by the bean counters and Polian cited examples of the organization pinching pennies in ways that were almost comical. The fact that Ralph later overspent for a few players does not change that fact. For a long period of time, Ralph and the organization were most certainly cheap and the product on the field suffered. Edited September 9, 2015 by mannc

[birdog1960]

Wow. The last gasp of the Ralph Wilson era resulted in

 

Kyle Williams, Mario Williams, Marcel Dareus, Jerry Hughes, Aaron Williams, Leodis McKelvin. In other words every important element of the best unit by far on the team.

 

Nix/Whaley/Brandon were not able to figure out how to hire a competent coach. Gailey and Marrone were terrible choices from the get go. Rex Ryan may turn out better. But its also possible the Bills have owned the Jets the last couple of years because Ryan isn't that great. Lets not be counting chickens before they hatch.

those players were here last year and several for multiple years, yet no playoffs. a few good cases of wine don't make a michelin star organization…and they didn't. that wasn't the goal. however, they are clearly an important nucleus from which to build. rex may not turn out to be emeril or even ottolenghi but he's certainly more highly respected than the multiple previous misfits that conventional wisdom rightfully ridiculed after they were announced. it was hopeless before. it's not anymore. that's awesome!

Read Polian's book, where he describes the appalling state of the Billls' organization in the mid-80s. Football decisions were absolutely being dictated by the bean counters and Polian cited examples of the organization pinching pennies in ways that were almost comical. The fact that Ralph later overspent for a few players does not change that fact. For a long period of time, Ralph and the organization were most certainly cheap and the product on the field suffered.

it wasn't an accident that polian included the anecdote about wilson borrowing gas money on the trip to the airport after he was fired.

[Gordio]

Wilson to me was the owner that wanted to win but was never willing to go the extra mile to make that happen. He never wanted winning to get in the way of the bottomline. It is my opinion too that he also fancied himself has a more knowledgeable football guy than he really was. I think he was a behind the scene meddling owner, always wanting a say on draft day & such. But....... with that being said, if any other owner or at least 90% of the other owners owned the Bills during Wilson's tenure I am pretty positive the Bills would of been long gone from the WNY region. So we should be all but thankfull & gratefull to Mr. Wilson for that. Historically though, I believe the Bills only have a little bit above a .400 winning percentage & have only made the playoffs in 12 out of the 40 + years he owned the Bills while they were in the NFL. Take away the golden era of 88-93 & the numbers get a whole lot more dismal. Unfortunately that falls right at the feet of Mr. Wilson. So I guess it is all how you want to look at Mr. Wilson if he is a good owner or bad owner. I like to look at the good when remembering Ralph.

[May Day 10]

Calm down, champ. No one defends how Ralph ran the team. We praise him for his loyalty to WNY and his generosity after his passing. That's not an endorsement of his football management skills.

 

Pretty much this.

 

I will be happy to see the Ralph Wilson statue go up someday. he is the father of the Bills and a very generous man. For example, the Hospice facility he and Mary funded is breathtaking in both beauty and service.

 

However, I feel like the way the team was run on moth balls in the last 10-15 years or so was kind of running out the clock. I sense Mr Wilson also was kind of stuck in the older days to some degree when the players did not have the bargaining power they currently possess.

 

Pegulas on the other hand recognize that it is Buffalo/WNY and you have to treat the players above and beyond to get them to like and appreciate the area and organization. That goes for perks as well as dealing with contract talks... generally everything when dealing with a player. Jarius Byrd would have been handled completely differently for example. IMO they would have probably had him traded to a team willing to work on a deal and not be stuck here on the tag and unhappy, only to be lost for nothing, and to add insult to injury, tell teammates and other members of the NFLPA that Buffalo wasnt good for him.

[BigBuff423]

 

Actually, that's exactly how I remember it.

 

People defended Ralph from ad hominem attacks that were better aimed at his poor decisions, not at his unwillingness to spend or his (lack of) desire to win.

 

^^^this