Fred Says Whaley Dishonest With Him

[YoloinOhio]

So Freddy took a shot at Whaley because Doug extended his contract and said he wanted Fred to retire a Bill?

Is that "dishonest"?

maybe Whaley just said he wanted him to retire and Fred inferred the rest

[Coach Tuesday]

No. Read through his twitter feed (which I just did). Coaches, people in football ops, etc. means more than "some coaches." To be honest, I'm going to move on because I realize I'm arguing with people that think Whaley is a good gm. I think he's run of the mill -- good on defensive talent; lousy on the qb -- and also a bureaucratic infighter. He might be better at the player side of things than his predecessors, but that's not saying much. But if the team gets to 8-8 (the Bills real record last year if that Pats game had mattered at all), all of the sudden he's a great roster builder. I need to see a lot more than that before arriving at this conclusion. But this board features a lot of people who are inherently pro-management, so the conversation has predictably drifted to the point where it is now ("hard-headed" pro-Whaley folks snarking at the Jackson loyalists while also resorting to the cheapest trick in the book, blaming the media).

 

Anyway, I thought it was a dumb decision to cut Jackson for more than one reason. I'll leave it at that.

 

This sums up my views on Whaley quite nicely. I'll add: he's very green for a GM and still learning how to play well in the sandbox.

[birdog1960]

Here is the entire timeline of events, big and small, that led to the abrupt releasing of Fred Jackson, M&T Bank not being communicated with, and football ops and administration not being consulted and told.

 

1. Karlos Williams was better than they thought.

2. Whaley and Rex and Roman talked about that.

what happened to the cap stuff that was here (is here, in bring back fergy's post). did you realize that the cap hit could have been mitigated by talking to Jackson and his agent?

[MyHorseAteTheKid]

Oldest RB in the league, past 3 seasons missed a lot of playing time due to injury and already missed most of training camp because of a hamstring... not to mention younger and less expensive RB's on the team.... FredEX was an awesome Buffalo Bill, loved the community and the city.... However once the team starts to win (and it will win) fans will stop pointing fingers and continue as they always have... It's the natural order of everything, a grieving period and then move on... Wishing y o u the Best, Mr. Jackson...

[AdamK]

even if this was true (it has since been refuted by PFT) or it did indeed come to fruition, the word in TC was Karlos played himself into the #2 spot. I do not think it would have been Fred starting in place of McCoy. He isn't fast enough, bottom line. I love him but he's not a workhorse RB anymore.

Agreed, he's not a workhorse RB anymore, but will Karlos play week 1?

[YoloinOhio]

Agreed, he's not a workhorse RB anymore, but will Karlos play week 1?

he is supposed to, he is practicing

[Nanker]

 

The Bills are smarter than you think. They realized what could have happened in 2000 so they began putting board plants in after that, knowing eventually this situation would arise again and it would be very helpful to have board veterans 'towing' the company line.

 

Which reminds me, has anyone else gotten time and a half this week?!? The OT is killing me! Might be time for a class-action wage lawsuit.

Speak for yourself man. I'm flush with cash. Just made a BIG deposit.

THANK YOU DOUG!!!

[Lurker]

 

Russ takes this information to the Sr. Staff meeting and says something like, "there is a chance that Freddy wont be on the roster this upcoming year. Please try to steer clear of featuring him in promotional material. I am not saying that it is likely but it is better to be safe than sorry.

OK, let's assume that scenario played out for a moment. And the marketing department convinced M&T to go with Watkins as its 2015 spokesperson, ending it's long relationship with Fred.

 

You don't think there wouldn't have been blowback from the hubbub created by media bomb throwers like TG, Sully or Bucko? Or the Interweb trolls and second guessers who make moral outrage their reason for being?

 

Why would M&T or any advertiser want to step in front of that bus?

[Kelly the Dog]

what happened to the cap stuff that was here (is here, in bring back fergy's post). did you realize that the cap hit could have been mitigated by talking to Jackson and his agent?

I think there were 15 reasons that ultimately he was traded and cap hit was one of the smaller ones. But the fact that Karlos was better than they thought and beat Fred out for #2 is really the reason. Or perhaps better said, if that didn't happen he never would have been released.

[Rico]

No. Read through his twitter feed (which I just did). Coaches, people in football ops, etc. means more than "some coaches." To be honest, I'm going to move on because I realize I'm arguing with people that think Whaley is a good gm. I think he's run of the mill -- good on defensive talent; lousy on the qb -- and also a bureaucratic infighter. He might be better at the player side of things than his predecessors, but that's not saying much. But if the team gets to 8-8 (the Bills real record last year if that Pats game had mattered at all), all of the sudden he's a great roster builder. I need to see a lot more than that before arriving at this conclusion. But this board features a lot of people who are inherently pro-management, so the conversation has predictably drifted to the point where it is now ("hard-headed" pro-Whaley folks snarking at the Jackson loyalists while also resorting to the cheapest trick in the book, blaming the media).

 

Anyway, I thought it was a dumb decision to cut Jackson for more than one reason. I'll leave it at that.

Agreed on Whaley, great post. Not as upset about Fred as others though, but I will miss him.

[FireChan]

OK, let's assume that scenario played out for a moment. And the marketing department convinced M&T to go with Watkins as its 2015 spokesperson, ending it's long relationship with Fred.

 

You don't think there wouldn't have been blowback from the hubbub created by media bomb throwers like TG, Sully or Bucko? Or the Interweb trolls and second guessers who make moral outrage their reason for being?

 

Why would M&T or any advertiser want to step in front of that bus?

A media guy would write a story like "Is the writing on the walls for Fred Jackson" and a group of interweb trolls would continue their jobs of bashing every media member who posts an opinion piece they disagree with. Same as always.

[LabattBlue]

He was a great community guy who served the Bills well for 8 years...AND WAS WELL COMPENSATED DURING HIS TIME HERE. Now he is gone.

 

Who cares if Whaley, Rex, or the Pegula's handled it in a way that YOU didn't like?

 

Who cares if M&T Bank has idiots in their marketing department who would create an ad campaign revolving around an aging running camp and launch it before final cutdown day?

 

Is every loss this season going to be blamed on FJ not being here?

 

 

MAKE IT STOP!!! This is ridiculous.

[Nanker]

So, is Fred still going to be the M&T spokesman? Was he paid in advance for this year? Is there no opt-out clause in that contract that said the relationship would be dissolved if Fred were traded or waived? The bank has no other options at this point?

[Snorom]

No. Read through his twitter feed (which I just did). Coaches, people in football ops, etc. means more than "some coaches." To be honest, I'm going to move on because I realize I'm arguing with people that think Whaley is a good gm. I think he's run of the mill -- good on defensive talent; lousy on the qb -- and also a bureaucratic infighter. He might be better at the player side of things than his predecessors, but that's not saying much. But if the team gets to 8-8 (the Bills real record last year if that Pats game had mattered at all), all of the sudden he's a great roster builder. I need to see a lot more than that before arriving at this conclusion. But this board features a lot of people who are inherently pro-management, so the conversation has predictably drifted to the point where it is now ("hard-headed" pro-Whaley folks snarking at the Jackson loyalists while also resorting to the cheapest trick in the book, blaming the media).

 

Anyway, I thought it was a dumb decision to cut Jackson for more than one reason. I'll leave it at that.

 

yes you are because Whaley is a very solid GM...

[negativo]

Professional sports teams have for years used plants to perform social media damage control and manipulate discussion. This is a fact. Longtime contributors on message boards, twitter and comment sections of newspapers are often hired and paid to post. If they leave the fold the account is transfered to someone else.

 

It's not as "altruistic" as people want to believe. Those quickest to attack such realities as "insane" or "ridiculous" are either painfully naive or on the payroll.

 

Sorry to have to burst the bubble folks, but read the members over time who seem to always be the most aggressive in defending the FO, and then form your own opinions.

 

Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are as real as some of the member accounts on this and every other popular forum. It's costumed to look like genuine opinion, but behind the curtain you'll find the Wizard is a fraud.

[birdog1960]

Speak for yourself man. I'm flush with cash. Just made a BIG deposit.

THANK YOU DOUG!!!

yes. I figured they'd pay you better than the last regime paid the jills. respect is good.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

The topic came up. It had to. And if you believe that it did, then the implication is that the FO LIED to M&T, and I'm not buying that.

 

M&T wanted Jackson. They got him. Now they look dumb.

Just to be clear that isn't what I am saying at all. All that I was saying is that the Bills didn't do what they are supposed. They either didnt communicate or didn't execute. These things are developed together. Edited September 2, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[John from Riverside]

I feel bad for Fred I love everything the Bills have done this off season except cut Fred. You can not replace his heart and his will to win. Guys like Bryce Brown are a dime a dozen you can get

them anytime in the rounds 3 thru 6 in next years draft. Or if your scouting is good like the Bills is maybe as a undrafted college free agent. This release of Jackson is a mistake

no it won't cost the Bills wins or ruin the team but it takes away that special feeling the team had going on this summer. This team is poised to do something great this year and Fred Jackson is there leader

you don't go into battle without your true leader. I know Fred would not have played a lot this year but for me his role would have been an important one of leadership and captain of this football

team. For the life of me I can't understand how Rex and Doug don't understand this. Did you here what Fred said after he was cut he would have given anything to retire a Buffalo Bill.

That means he would have taken a pay cut, maybe played special teams he would have done what ever it took. Here is a guy who led are team last year in rushing and receiving last year.

He is are emotional leader and are community leader and the person who sets the right example of what a athlete should be. How is it the best team in football the last 3 years Seattle can see that and we can't.

Yes I agree at this point in time Bryce Brown might be better at running the ball and faster. But Fred is better at Blocking and getting the extra yard and leading our team and our town and city and this region.

It would be like the Yankees cutting Derrick Jeter. Yes his Skills have diminished and there might be a better younger player in the minors. SO the Bills should have gone to Fred and said that this is your last year

with us make it a good one we want you to do out on top and play in a Bills Playoff game. Then have Fred announce it. I don't know why The Bills management and Terry and Kim Pegula can't understand this.

How can the Bills look them selves in the mirror and think this is ok. I for one was ashamed to be a Bills fan yesterday. I am sad for Fred I wish him well. My my 2nd favorite team is Seattle because I love Russell

Wilson and I wanted the Bills to Draft him. Having Marshawn helps too, now if Fred signs that will really be cool. Fred will protect Wilson on 3rd downs and spell Lynch and will also provide true leadership

to a Superbowl winning team looking to go to a 3rd straight Super Bowl. I hope if the Bills do not win the SuperBowl this year that the Seahawks do so Fred can go out a winner. Fred deserves to be respected.

This is something the Bills management failed to do when the released him yesterday. They tried to say the right things but I'm not buying it. Fred's release does not feel right. my eyes tell me that, my gut tells

me that, and my heart tells me that.

Will your heart and guts still tell you that if Jackson gets hurt again this year in Seattle? Then remember that if he was with the bills he is carrying a multi million dollar salary?

 

I am in the Fred Jackson fan club.....but the injuries are mounting quick to go along with the age.....why cant people see that?

[thebandit27]

Professional sports teams have for years used plants to perform social media damage control and manipulate discussion. This is a fact. Longtime contributors on message boards, twitter and comment sections of newspapers are often hired and paid to post. If they leave the fold the account is transfered to someone else.

 

It's not as "altruistic" as people want to believe. Those quickest to attack such realities as "insane" or "ridiculous" are either painfully naive or on the payroll.

 

Sorry to have to burst the bubble folks, but read the members over time who seem to always be the most aggressive in defending the FO, and then form your own opinions.

 

Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are as real as some of the member accounts on this and every other popular forum. It's costumed to look like genuine opinion, but behind the curtain you'll find the Wizard is a fraud.

 

And yet you come at some of us that have been very targeted in our criticism(s) of the front office and claim we're shills.

 

Was I shilling when I ripped the Darby pick back in April? Was I shilling when I repeatedly blasted Marrone/Hacket's use of Sammy Watkins, or my disdain for the Kouandjio selection?

 

To claim to have read certain members' posting history, and then have drawn such a conclusion means one of two things:(1) you're lying, or (2) you're incapable of deductive reasoning. Of course I suppose it could be both.

[The Big Cat]

Just to be clear that isn't what I am saying at all. All that I was saying is that the Bills didn't do what they are supposed. They either did communicate or didn't execute. These things are developed together.

 

But, you know that these things operate first and foremost on deadlines. So who blew theirs?

 

But more importantly, did the Bills have one they could realistically honor?

Edited September 2, 2015 by The Big Cat

[YoloinOhio]

Will your heart and guts still tell you that if Jackson gets hurt again this year in Seattle? Then remember that if he was with the bills he is carrying a multi million dollar salary?

 

I am in the Fred Jackson fan club.....but the injuries are mounting quick to go along with the age.....why cant people see that?

releasing him simultaneously breaks my heart, and makes a ton of sense to me.

[Heels20X6]

Professional sports teams have for years used plants to perform social media damage control and manipulate discussion. This is a fact. Longtime contributors on message boards, twitter and comment sections of newspapers are often hired and paid to post. If they leave the fold the account is transfered to someone else.

 

It's not as "altruistic" as people want to believe. Those quickest to attack such realities as "insane" or "ridiculous" are either painfully naive or on the payroll.

 

Sorry to have to burst the bubble folks, but read the members over time who seem to always be the most aggressive in defending the FO, and then form your own opinions.

 

Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are as real as some of the member accounts on this and every other popular forum. It's costumed to look like genuine opinion, but behind the curtain you'll find the Wizard is a fraud.

 

Sweet baby Jeebus....This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board.

 

Anyways, gotta go, having lunch with Russ Brandon, Terry Pegula's dog and Nanker to figure out how to control the message here.

[Nanker]

yes. I figured they'd pay you better than the last regime paid the jills. respect is good.

Damn straight!

[Heels20X6]

 

And yet you come at some of us that have been very targeted in our criticism(s) of the front office and claim we're shills.

 

Was I shilling when I ripped the Darby pick back in April? Was I shilling when I repeatedly blasted Marrone/Hacket's use of Sammy Watkins, or my disdain for the Kouandjio selection?

 

To claim to have read certain members' posting history, and then have drawn such a conclusion means one of two things:(1) you're lying, or (2) you're incapable of deductive reasoning. Of course I suppose it could be both.

(3) He's an idiot. Trademark and Copyright DC Tom

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

The Bills are smarter than you think. They realized what could have happened in 2000 so they began putting board plants in after that, knowing eventually this situation would arise again and it would be very helpful to have board veterans 'towing' the company line.

 

Which reminds me, has anyone else gotten time and a half this week?!? The OT is killing me! Might be time for a class-action wage lawsuit.

Lol- I havnt gotten time in a half since the high school summer job... If only

[Hapless Bills Fan]

It was an open field strip but it wasn't like he was being careless with the ball. He can't cough the ball up, that is for sure. But Fred fumbled 5 times last year in about 200 touches. Brown has fumbled once in the last two with about 140 touches or so.

 

It's hard to inject facts into an internet discussion.

 

Fred had a period of time where he was considered to have fumble potential around the league - 2009 and 2010. He worked on it and his # went down, but then climbed up again.

 

Facts last 3 years:

 

Fred Jackson 612 total touches (run + rec + KR + PR), 13 Fumbles (8 Unrecovered). That's a fumble rate of 2.1%.

Bryce Brown 274 total touches , 5 fumbles (4 Unrecovered). That's a fumble rate of 1.8% . Unrecovered fumbles is 1.5%

 

For those who like to hedge, Unrecovered fumbles 1.3% for Fred, 1.5% for Bryce Brown. I don't because a fumble stops the momentum of the play potentially resulting in loss of down or loss of points even if it's recovered, and there's a very strong element of luck involved in what team recovers.

 

If you want to look at just last year, Fred has 5 fumbles on 210 touches, 2.4%

Bryce had 1 fumble on 55 touches, 1.8%.

 

Fumbles are a pretty straightforward stat yet people are still out here referring to Brown as a "fumbler" and speaking as though Fred is Mr Reliable Hands. I don't want to Dis Fred or take anything away from him, but the Cold Hard Football Facts paint a different picture. Fred is a good player but he's had his share of turnovers.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Hopeful

[birdog1960]

Damn straight!

however, soliciting, by any other name is still soliciting.

[BillsVet]

 

This sums up my views on Whaley quite nicely. I'll add: he's very green for a GM and still learning how to play well in the sandbox.

 

Shouldn't someone with going on 20 seasons in NFL personnel be more savvy than what Whaley is now? Especially the part about understanding how different departments must work together in a NFL Front Office? I'm sure Pittsburgh does things differently in some ways than Buffalo, but DW has been here through 6 off-seasons now.

[Snorom]

 

Sweet baby Jeebus....This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board.

 

Anyways, gotta go, having lunch with Russ Brandon, Terry Pegula's dog and Nanker to figure out how to control the message here.

 

 

he has more.. he been spamming the dumb a lot recently

[eball]

 

Shouldn't someone with going on 20 seasons in NFL personnel be more savvy than what Whaley is now? Especially the part about understanding how different departments must work together in a NFL Front Office? I'm sure Pittsburgh does things differently in some ways than Buffalo, but DW has been here through 6 off-seasons now.

 

Because Whaley didn't notify the marketing department he was cutting Fred he's now not "savvy" and doesn't know how front offices work? And since he is only doing Rex's bidding (as you have consistently stated) why didn't Rex notify the marketing folks?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Sweet baby Jeebus....This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board.

 

Anyways, gotta go, having lunch with Russ Brandon, Terry Pegula's dog and Nanker to figure out how to control the message here.

 

And that's saying a lot considering some of this chap's other posts.

 

Pegula's dog, that one had me laughing around a mouthful of tea. Heels, I christen thee KOK (killer of keyboards). Can I come too, I'm sure I fall into the "Shill" category to the Tin Foil Hat brigade.

[Rob's House]

Rogue - used to describe something or someone that is different from others in usually a dangerous or harmful way.

 

1 :resembling or suggesting a rogue elephant especially in being isolated, aberrant, dangerous, or uncontrollable <capsized by a rogue wave>

2 :corrupt, dishonest <rogue cops>

3 :of or being a nation whose leaders defy international law or norms of international behavior <rogue states>

Edited September 2, 2015 by Rob's House

[DC Tom]

(3) He's an idiot. Trademark and Copyright DC Tom

 

I hereby grant license to any and all to use "idiot" and "moron" to describe negativo in the context of this thread.

 

But only because Whaley promised me a bonus if I did.

[LabattBlue]

 

It's hard to inject facts into an internet discussion.

 

Fred had a period of time where he was considered to have fumble potential around the league - 2009 and 2010. He worked on it and his # went down, but then climbed up again.

 

Facts last 3 years:

 

Fred Jackson 612 total touches (run + rec + KR + PR), 13 Fumbles (8 Unrecovered). That's a fumble rate of 2.1%.

Bryce Brown 274 total touches , 5 fumbles (4 Unrecovered). That's a fumble rate of 1.8% . Unrecovered fumbles is 1.5%

 

For those who like to hedge, Unrecovered fumbles 1.3% for Fred, 1.5% for Bryce Brown. I don't because a fumble stops the momentum of the play potentially resulting in loss of down or loss of points even if it's recovered, and there's a very strong element of luck involved in what team recovers.

 

If you want to look at just last year, Fred has 5 fumbles on 210 touches, 2.4%

Bryce had 1 fumble on 55 touches, 1.8%.

 

Fumbles are a pretty straightforward stat yet people are still out here referring to Brown as a "fumbler" and speaking as though Fred is Mr Reliable Hands. I don't want to Dis Fred or take anything away from him, but the Cold Hard Football Facts paint a different picture. Fred is a good player but he's had his share of turnovers.

Great post...except it will be ignored by those who are ripping Whaley and want him tar and feathered.

[jeffismagic]

Just checked in with Doug Whaley. We are going to get extra this month as the Fred cut is just the start. There will be more second guessing soon enough and Russ wants us ready to interact with the Bills fan community. Total Football Awareness.

 

 

Now, let's talk about the idea that the Bills were 8-8 last year. Is this the new thing? Do we just create the record we want, not the record they had? Ok, I'll bite. This was a 10 win team last year but the college coaches in Marrone and Hackett, and their playcalling and offensive line coaching held back a 10 win team roster assembled by Doug.

[Kelly the Dog]

I hereby grant license to any and all to use "idiot" and "moron" to describe negativo in the context of this thread.

 

But only because Whaley promised me a bonus if I did.

Did Whaley notify the football ops and marketing department and local banks before promising that bonus? That reeks of unsavviness.

[Snorom]

Great post...except it will be ignored by those who are ripping Whaley and want him tar and feathered.

 

 

It just makes me laugh that there is always a contingent that has to have a fall guy that needs to blame someone for everything and grind that ax non stop

 

I love Whaley as our GM. He makes bold moves and has definitely helped make this team much better is short time. I don't expect perfection but I'm enjoying what I see on the field compared to what we had pre Whaley

[YoloinOhio]

Are our paychecks coming via M&T Bank?

[Wayne Cubed]

Are our paychecks coming via M&T Bank?

Gee, I hope so.

[NoSaint]

Doug keeps the Pegula's, coaching and Russ involved with what he is thinking. This move should not have caught anyone off guard. A few questions would have been asked candidly. "When you say that Fred might not be here are you saying that it is a 70% chance or a 1% chance?"

 

Russ takes this information to the Sr. Staff meeting and says something like, "there is a chance that Freddy wont be on the roster this upcoming year. Please try to steer clear of featuring him in promotional material. I am not saying that it is likely but it is better to be safe than sorry. Do your best to do so and that doesn't leave this room."

 

It then falls on the department head's (who ultimately sign off on all of this stuff) to guide the process. As an example when the department heads meet with their management teams as they guide the different organizational initiatives (that is kind of where I fell). They guide the marketing themes, the ticket sales, the sponsor sales, the ticket service, the sponsor service, the pr, the marketing, the community relations, etc... There is a staff below them that really executes these tasks (may be one more layer of management here as well).

 

I am not suggesting that the information is shared with the 150 or so people in the organization but with all of the key decision makers. Think about it like this. What kind of calls do you think that they are receiving today? If a plan had been drafted at the sr. level they could begin carrying it out instead of reacting. The plan could have been further developed (and had more people clued in) as the possibility became more real. It is not perfect but it certainly cuts down on situations like this.

again, always appreciated.

 

i guess my follow up would be - if this wasnt a shock to many here, how was it to anyone in house, unless whaley was actively telling others that there was no chance of a cut? i could see moderate surprise, but blindsided would be a surprise to me.

 

we knew they were exploring other backs, we knew there were rumors around this all offseason, there were plenty here that connected the dots of diminishing role, and price that might not match, of course age, injury history..... wouldnt you think that most, even if not explicitly briefed of the possibility probably shouldve had an idea he was some degree of risk? i dont know how anyone couldve had him at a slam dunk to make it unless whaley was giving mis-information.