The Bills should slowly revolutionize the kicking game.

[BarleyNY]

19 hours ago, FireChans said:

There are lots of obscure things about NFL field goal protocol.

 

For example, just about every kicking unit in the NFL is 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage. This is the way it’s always been done. But this adds on an extra 7 yards every attempt.

 

What I’m suggesting is the Bills move it a little bit close. Let’s say 5 yards. Suddenly that 50 yard FG is a 48 yarder. Suddenly that 40 yard FG is a 38 yarder. And even extra points are just a little bit easier.

 

It the long run, this will play huge dividends. The difference between a 39 yard FG and a 41 yard FG is about 7% in conversion rate. Over the course of a few seasons, that’s a huge amount of conversions.
 

The real secret is don’t tell anybody you’re doing this. Don’t tell the refs, don’t tell the media, don’t tell anybody. Just move up a bit and reap the rewards. 

Hear me out…….

[Dat]

This one simple trick has opposing special teams coaches pissed. ———> click here

 

Also tinkering with the new asto turf ghillie suit uniform

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

You have to kick the ball over a bunch of huge men, many of whom are jumping into the air to try to block it. If you move it closer, that gives the ball less distance to elevate. This means you will get kicks blocked far more frequently.

 

Someone smarter can do the math, but the amount of lost elevation over those two lost yards is going to be significant.

I’m not sure anyone’s done the math. 

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

So I take it you feel that you’re the first guy to think of this, and that no kicker, or STs coach has ever  given any consideration to this hypothetical premise? Next thing ya know you will propose a kitchen sink disposal and make millions, millions I say…, 

 

 I so do love this board, it shows I’m not the only one with “Ideas” 😁👍

Um, you know this is the same league that didn’t figure out it was smart to go for it on 4th downs sometimes for like 80 years, right?

 

Yeah, I’m thinking it’s possible they are collectively a low ingenuity group that does a lot of things “because that’s the way it’s always been done.” 
 

NFL teams watched college players run the read option to great success for like 20 years. Folks like you laughed when it was brought up as something NFL teams could try. “There’s good reasons why they don’t run read option in the NFL,” you cried. Now, of course, just about every team has at least a read option play in their playbook. 

[Doc Brown]

I never gave it much thought but why not snap it 10 or so yards on shorter kicks if blocks are a problem?  Mess with normal rhythm/routing of the snap/kick?  Make it more likely for the defender rushing from the edge to block it because he has a better angle?

[TonyBeets]

I was hoping the OP didn't double down.....

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

I never gave it much thought but why not snap it 10 or so yards on shorter kicks if blocks are a problem?  Mess with normal rhythm/routing of the snap/kick?  Make it more likely for the defender rushing from the edge to block it because he has a better angle?

Now you're talking.

 

There were 17 blocked kicks last year.

 

Out of 1060 total FGA.

 

That's about 1%.

 

Worrying about blocks is foolish. Statistically, that's an extreme improbability.

[Buffalo716]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Now you're talking.

 

There were 17 blocked kicks last year.

 

Out of 1060 total FGA.

 

That's about 1%.

 

Worrying about blocks is foolish. Statistically, that's an extreme improbability.

As I told you earlier... There are hundreds of field goals that are within inches of being blocked

 

You're talking about moving it back 6 ft.. 6 ft is a lot more than a few inches

 

Yes 39 yarder is easier than a 41 yarder... But again you're not taking in the angle of the kick

 

Tyler bass had a lot of kicks that were close to being blocked last year... 

 

Put him six feet closer and he's having a lot more blocked

 

It's an extreme improbability because professional coaches have worked out the best spot to kick the ball from... Even one yard up will create a lot more blocks around the league

 

Edited April 1 by Buffalo716

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Now you're talking.

 

There were 17 blocked kicks last year.

 

Out of 1060 total FGA.

 

That's about 1%.

 

Worrying about blocks is foolish. Statistically, that's an extreme improbability.

It happened on Bass's field goal attempts 5.88% last season and 6.25% the season before.  None his first two seasons.  It's a problem for him for whatever reason.

[Bookie Man]

Just scrap the kicking game altogether. Go for it every time. Play 4 down football all game. 

[BillsShredder83]

23 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

The amount of blocked kicks will offset the percentage

 

So many kicks are just a couple of inches away from being blocked.. moving it up those two yards will result in a lot more blocks

 

The kicker would have to change the angle of his kick which would also affect his kicking ability 

Forget decade(s) of muscle memory, kickers are known to be hardy and very spontaneous.  they excel when new scenarios are tossed at them, as all that muscle memory and practice gets boring.  toss in their resistance to becoming mental cases and this is great.

 

i think to trick the other team we should move it every time. 8yds, 4, 3.1.

 

Msyne put the OL all the way to the left hash, and line kicker up to the right hash.  a diagonal snap would wreak havoc on opposing ST's coordinators.

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Forget decade(s) of muscle memory, kickers are known to be hardy and very spontaneous.  they excel when new scenarios are tossed at them, as all that muscle memory and practice gets boring.  toss in their resistance to becoming mental cases and this is great.

 

i think to trick the other team we should move it every time. 8yds, 4, 3.1.

 

Msyne put the OL all the way to the left hash, and line kicker up to the right hash.  a diagonal snap would wreak havoc on opposing ST's coordinators.

I know you're joking but you just made the best case for why it doesn't happen

 

Kickers are serious mental cases

 

They have the biggest yips in football.. now you want to take away a decade of their habits

[FireChans]

49 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It happened on Bass's field goal attempts 5.88% last season and 6.25% the season before.  None his first two seasons.  It's a problem for him for whatever reason.

Bass is absolutely slumping. That’s why it’s the perfect time to adjust to give him an edge.

 

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's an extreme improbability because professional coaches have worked out the best spot to kick the ball from... Even one yard up will create a lot more blocks around the league

I disagree that they have worked it out. I think they kick from where they kick because that’s where they kick from, point blank.

 

You are absolutely be right that adjusting kicking distance may actually be worse. But if you adjust the mechanics, maybe you could actually be better. Better than say, the other 31 teams who just think “sign this guy he kick good doing it the way we always do it .”

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Bass is absolutely slumping. That’s why it’s the perfect time to adjust to give him an edge.

 

I disagree that they have worked it out. I think they kick from where they kick because that’s where they kick from, point blank.

 

You are absolutely be right that adjusting kicking distance may actually be worse. But if you adjust the mechanics, maybe you could actually be better. Better than say, the other 31 teams who just think “sign this guy he kick good doing it the way we always do it .”

I've been around division one and professional kickers for 30 years

 

Seen them kicking practice, warm ups and game time

 

I've seen plenty of kickers kick from one yard or 3 yard or 5 yard starts... It's certainly possible

 

What it does do is change the trajectory and muscle memory of kickers... Which is a fickle position that is prone to mental lapses

 

Tyler bass can take 60 yards on one leg stride... But he's struggling to hit from 52... In NFL circumstances with a walk-up

 

Going off of 5 yards or 4 yards will do nothing but mess up his stride and gait

 

Without pressure or rushers he can hit 60 yards off of one step... You don't realize how much pressure and strain rushers coming off the edge create

 

And the difference between getting a kick eight feet over the center's head... Versus 5 ft... 5 ft is getting blocked... 8 ft is clearing the best blocker

 

Moving in two yards creates infinitely more blocks..  and strain on the kicker... This is not like 4th down analytics

 

This has been practiced

 

[FireChans]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

I've been around division one and professional kickers for 30 years

 

Seen them kicking practice, warm ups and game time

 

I've seen plenty of kickers kick from one yard or 3 yard or 5 yard starts... It's certainly possible

 

What it does do is change the trajectory and muscle memory of kickers... Which is a fickle position that is prone to mental lapses

 

Tyler bass can take 60 yards on one leg stride... But he's struggling to hit from 52... In NFL circumstances with a walk-up

 

Going off of 5 yards or 4 yards will do nothing but mess up his stride and gait

 

Without pressure or rushers he can hit 60 yards off of one step... You don't realize how much pressure and strain rushers coming off the edge create

 

And the difference between getting a kick eight feet over the center's head... Versus 5 ft... 5 ft is getting blocked... 8 ft is clearing the best blocker

 

Moving in two yards creates infinitely more blocks..  and strain on the kicker... This is not like 4th down analytics

 

This has been practiced

 

Okay so Bass is a lost cause.
 

Bring in some rugby guy and develop him differently.

[Buffalo716]

16 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Okay so Bass is a lost cause.
 

Bring in some rugby guy and develop him differently.

I want every bills player to succeed

 

But I'm starting to think Bass might be a lost cause...

 

He certainly has talent... But... Unless he was really injured last year

 

Something mentally was off... Because he certainly has the yips... Which you can't get in the NFL

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

On 3/30/2024 at 11:42 PM, FireChans said:

There are lots of obscure things about NFL field goal protocol.

 

For example, just about every kicking unit in the NFL is 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage. This is the way it’s always been done. But this adds on an extra 7 yards every attempt.

 

What I’m suggesting is the Bills move it a little bit close. Let’s say 5 yards. Suddenly that 50 yard FG is a 48 yarder. Suddenly that 40 yard FG is a 38 yarder. And even extra points are just a little bit easier.

 

It the long run, this will play huge dividends. The difference between a 39 yard FG and a 41 yard FG is about 7% in conversion rate. Over the course of a few seasons, that’s a huge amount of conversions.
 

The real secret is don’t tell anybody you’re doing this. Don’t tell the refs, don’t tell the media, don’t tell anybody. Just move up a bit and reap the rewards. 

 

[1ManRaid]

16 hours ago, FireChans said:

Sure, that’s why you run it in practice and see what happens.

 

I don’t deny that there’s a possibility that blocks go up and render the adjustment moot. But if blocks go up 1% and made FG’s go up 5%, you still win.

 

Dude...

The higher launch angle would DECREASE range more than the 2 yards you'd be saving by snapping shorter.  Also the higher trajectory and increased hangtime would decrease accuracy.  This is very much a valid case of "there's a reason they do it this way".  

 

The only time you want to adjust snap depth (which is 8 yards, not 7) is to actually LENGTHEN the snap on long FGs, so that you can drive the ball with a lower angle for more distance while still getting it over the blockers.  The tradeoff for that is that gives edge rushers/blockers a shallower more direct angle to get around the edge.

 

*edit*

You also clearly greatly underestimate how many extra blocks there would be.  The rate of blocks (or the required launch angle to get over the blockers and subsequent loss of range) is literally exponential the closer you get.  It wouldn't be a 1% increase moving in 2 yards, it would be more something like double for 1 yard closer, and quadruple for 2 yards closer.

Edited April 1 by 1ManRaid

[Don Otreply]

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

I’m not sure anyone’s done the math. 

Um, you know this is the same league that didn’t figure out it was smart to go for it on 4th downs sometimes for like 80 years, right?

 

Yeah, I’m thinking it’s possible they are collectively a low ingenuity group that does a lot of things “because that’s the way it’s always been done.” 
 

NFL teams watched college players run the read option to great success for like 20 years. Folks like you laughed when it was brought up as something NFL teams could try. “There’s good reasons why they don’t run read option in the NFL,” you cried. Now, of course, just about every team has at least a read option play in their playbook. 

Actually folks like me predicted the NFL would become major league college ball years ago, and it has, and will continue to do so, put that in your pipe and smoke it, lol. 

 

you’re going to die on this sword aren’t you…, 😁👍 and yes NFL coaches have been forcing square pegs into round holes for a long time, that’s why so many teams continuously under achieve…, 

[Just in Atlanta]

Either two things are correct:

1. The ROI of saving two yards is disproportionately lower than the increased possibility of blocked kicks. Ergo, a six foot (2 yard) man traveling 10 mph (17,600 yards) with a horizontal leap of 12 feet (4 yards) would reach the kicker's outstretched foot 23 percent more using the calculation V (velocity)=1/2 gt squared.  
2. Your theory is correct and you just let the cat out of the bag. 

Either way, we're screwed. 

[ALLinALLEN]

Why stop there? We should also punt from under center. We could save like 10 yards on punts making them go further! Brilliant OP

[Your Brown Eye]

I'm all for this. Heck, I want to move it two yards behind the long snapper. Snap the ball and have the FG team drop to their bellies. The opposing team jumps to try to block the kick and you drill them squarely in the nuts from 6 feet away. Do that a few times, and half of the opposing defense is on the bench with a pack of ice on their gonads unable to return to the game. By the 4th quarter the defense is forced to start the 4th-5th string DB's on the defensive line and BOOM...we rack up 28-35 points in the 4th quarter alone! We could make James Cook would look like Jim Brown!

 

That is revolutionary.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I thought this was going to be about getting a really good rugby kicker to just do both punts and FGs with drop kicks.  If hes fast enough you can do a lot of fun stuff with fakes in certain locations of the field and just go for it in the no mans land/long FG situations.  Basically free up a roster spot.  

[Matt_In_NH]

The key is to do this slowly so its not noticed, I would suggest 2 inches per year over 36 years to get to the final of 72 iinches.  If you try to go faster than they someone will catch on.

Edited April 1 by Matt_In_NH

[Beast]

5 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

The key is to do this slowly so its not noticed, I would suggest 2 inches per year over 24 years to get to the final of 72 iinches.  If you try to go faster than they someone will catch on.

Matt, where were you taught math?

[Royale with Cheese]

8 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

The key is to do this slowly so its not noticed, I would suggest 2 inches per year over 24 years to get to the final of 72 iinches.  If you try to go faster than they someone will catch on.

 

To really catch them off guard, I would say 1 inch per year over 48 years. 

17 hours ago, Beast said:

I can’t keep them to myself any longer, damn you!

 

My new rules would be one of two things.

 

1- shrink the distance between the uprights. Kickers are way too good.

 

2- if not 1, then anything over a 40 yard FG is only 2 points. I don’t think a team that drives to the opponent's 5 yard line and kicks a 22 yard field goal should be rewarded the same as a team that only makes it to the 35 and kicks a 52 yard FG. 
 

Or, do both #1 and #2. 🤓

 

5 points for a ball greased up with KY Jelly.  

Edited April 1 by Royale with Cheese

[strive_for_five_guy]

[hondo in seattle]

15 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I never gave it much thought but why not snap it 10 or so yards on shorter kicks if blocks are a problem?  Mess with normal rhythm/routing of the snap/kick?  Make it more likely for the defender rushing from the edge to block it because he has a better angle?

 

I think you have to standardize it so you can perfect it.  Do thousands of reps at 7 yards: snap, hold, kick... snap, hold, kick...  

[Jauronimo]

On 3/31/2024 at 9:11 AM, NoSaint said:

fine, 6 yards 

And if you're not completely satisfied with your field goal, we'll send you the 7th yard free of charge!

If the change is gradual enough it will be imperceptible to the eye.  That will be big when Bass is kicking chip shots 17 yards on the other side of scrimmage.

[Augie]

On 3/30/2024 at 11:48 PM, schoolhouserock said:

Why stop at 5? I say make it 3 yards!

 

I think we could own the market with 2 Minute Abs!!! 

[Matt_In_NH]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

Matt, where were you taught math?

Down the hall from where the OP learns about kicking strategy

[NoSaint]

21 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

And if you're not completely satisfied with your field goal, we'll send you the 7th yard free of charge!

If the change is gradual enough it will be imperceptible to the eye.  That will be big when Bass is kicking chip shots 17 yards on the other side of scrimmage.

 

don’t even have to get it over the defenses!

 

 

 

all fun and games until one of your special teamers gets called offside on what would’ve been the game winning offensive trick play 

[Jauronimo]

Just now, NoSaint said:

 

don’t even have to get it over the defenses!

 

 

 

all fun and games until one of your special teamers gets called offside on what would’ve been the game winning offensive trick play 

A grave mistake like that is likely to get your offensive coordinator fired.