Chiefs-Bills trade that landed Kansas City Patrick Mahomes

[nedboy7]

Now that we have discussed this and settled the argument, let's all promise not to bring it up again. 

[SaulGoodman]

4 hours ago, Success said:

 

This is like a cherrypicking festival.

 

Allen throws more picks than Mahomes, for sure.  But he also had 44 TD's to Mahomes' 27 TD's this past year.  That's more the kind of QB Allen is - he takes more risks, but makes more big plays.  And how is his playoff ratio of TD's to INT's?

 

Mahomes had more big plays than any QB in the league in his first few seasons, and he takes plenty of risks. Of course, swapping Tyreek Hill for MVS, along with a dramatic shift in the way teams defend KC (and a big downgrade in tackle play) led him to take a different approach the last few years. 

 

4 hours ago, Success said:

 

And Allen was admittedly bad in last year's Cincy game.  But why do you choose that game, but fail to mention Mahomes' meltdown in the 2nd half against Cincy in the game right after 13 seconds?

 

Because that's one bad half (consisting of like four possessions) out of 18 playoff games. And because the narrative is that it's always Allen's teammates/coaches that let him down. 

 

4 hours ago, Success said:

 

Beyond that, you keep bringing up how KC stole a SINGLE PLAY from the Bills.  No one ever said the Bills staff has zero creativity.  Singling out 1 play for any kind of coaching comparison is the height of cherrypicking, and completely unscientific.

 

Because that play continues to be singled out by fans as one of the best examples of Andy's allegedly incomparable genius, and because it's led to three TDs in SBs. Plus, I doubt it's the only creative play that Bills coaches have used. Do you really think that Reid is a savant who understands offensive concepts that no one else in the league can? And you know that he's been criticized greatly throughout his career for choking away playoff games (losing record before Mahomes) and bad decisions/poor clock management, right?

 

4 hours ago, Success said:

 

My assertion is based on a much more broad overview of MANY stats and factors that make up a more true comparison between both QB's, both coaching staffs and both teams as a whole.  It's a much more holistic view.  Ergo, the facts actually DO support my assertion.

 

 

Like what?

 

Btw, going back to the supporting cast debate, here are the preseason PFF roster rankings for each team since each QB became a starter:

 

2018:

KC - 13

Bills - 16

 

2019:

KC - 7

Bills - 29

 

2020: 

KC - 4

Bills - 7

 

2021:

KC - 2

Bills - 4

 

2022:

KC - 8

Bills - 1

 

2023:

KC - 4

Bills - 6

 

Notice that, despite the narrative that Mahomes walked into the greatest situation imaginable, his initial roster was ranked 13th. Only slightly above Buffalo's. It may have been better than 13, but obviously it wasn't considered an ultra-loaded roster. Even after Mahomes' MVP season in which his offense averaged 35 ppg, the ranking only rose to 7th the following season. Also, as beebe pointed out, Alex Smith had by far his best season statistically in 2017, and Mahomes doubled his TD total as a first-year starter the next year. With over 1000 more passing yds and nearly 10 more points per game (a few ppg away from a record). Meanwhile, Buffalo's roster ranking plummeted the year after Allen took over, and his rookie stats were weaker across the board than Tyrod Taylor's from the previous year. 

 

Btw, here's what they had to say before the 2020 season: Biggest weakness: It's not a popular sentiment in the city of Buffalo, but this is a very good roster that probably will be limited by shaky quarterback play. Even if you want to discount the PFF grades or advanced accuracy metrics, Allen finished the 2019 season with a 58.8% completion percentage that was lower than each of the 32 quarterbacks with the most regular-season attempts. He had bottom-10 marks in yards per attempt and passer rating as well.

 

None of this supports the idea that there's been a massive gap in talent between these teams, especially in recent years. Or that Allen would have had insane levels of success in KC. I'm sure you'll attack PFF's credibility or something, but they study every play of every game and earn a lot of money doing what they do. No one's perfect, but they're definitely a better resource than the biased opinion of a fan. 

 

The fact that Allen wasn't very sharp or accurate in his first two seasons doesn't help your case either. He wasn't likely to win big in those first two years, which would have left him only 4 seasons to surpass what Mahomes has done. So basically, he'd have needed to win the last four SBs. 

 

 

Edited February 24 by SaulGoodman

[Dablitzkrieg]

23 hours ago, Returntoglory said:

Who won the trade?

 

The Chiefs traded up in the first round in the 2017 draft with the Bills and selected Patrick Mahomes, forever changing the franchise and a city for the next decade. 

Kansas City, which originally had the No. 27 overall pick in that 2017 draft, traded three picks to Buffalo to move up to No. 10 and select Mahomes. 

 

So what did the Bills get with the Chiefs' picks? Here's a look at the trade and the players who transpired from the deal:

 

The trade doesn't seem like equal value for Mahomes, but Bills general manager Brandon Beane did some excellent maneuvering to build a Super Bowl-caliber roster with those picks. Buffalo selected Tre'Davious White with that No. 27 overall pick in 2017, and White has become one of the elite cornerbacks in the game with two Pro Bowl and All-Pro selections in his five seasons. Opposing quarterbacks have a career passer rating of just 46.2 targeting White, who has 16 interceptions to just nine touchdowns allowed. 

 

2017 third-round pick (No. 91 overall): Buffalo packaged the pick in a draft trade with the Los Angeles Rams. The Bills traded their 2017 second-round pick (No. 44 overall) and 2017 third-round pick (No. 91 overall) in exchange for the Rams' 2017 second-round pick (No. 37 overall, wide receiver Zay Jones) and a 2017 fifth-round pick (No. 149 overall).

 

2017 fifth-round pick (No. 149 overall): The Bills packaged that pick with a 2017 third-round pick (No. 75 overall) and a 2017 fifth-round pick (No. 156 overall) to the Atlanta Falcons in exchange for a 2017 second-round pick (No. 63 overall). Buffalo selected offensive tackle Dion Dawkins with the No. 63 pick. 

 

2018 first-round pick (No. 22 overall): The Bills moved up in the draft, parting ways with the 2018 first-round pick and a 2018 third-round pick (No. 65 overall) to the Baltimore Ravens for a 2018 first-round pick (No. 16 overall) and a 2018 fifth-round pick (No. 154 overall). The Bills selected linebacker Tremaine Edmunds with the pick.

2018 fifth-round pick (No. 154 overall): The Bills used this selection on cornerback Siran Neal.

Yes. Let's post this annually 

[Returntoglory]

28 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Yes. Let's post this annually 

Sarcasm?

[90sBills]

53 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Yes. Let's post this annually 

This is the offseason so expect a monthly, if not weekly, dose. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

1 hour ago, Returntoglory said:

Sarcasm?

Ya think?!

[Returntoglory]

6 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Ya think?!

You realize that this has only been posted as a topic once, right? That's according to a search I performed prior to posting. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:31 PM, Brand J said:

I wouldn’t even say he “fell” to 10. Most of the pre draft rankings had him as a late 1st-2nd round prospect. Technically he shouldn’t have even gone ahead of Deshaun Watson.
When the Bills made the trade with KC, the Bills braintrust figured it was for Watson, Terry thought he could still get Mahomes at the back of round 1. He actually wanted to take him at 10, but McD hadn’t scouted QBs so he wanted to wait. Whaley was on record as saying “it’s your team, Mr Pegula, you can do whatever you want.” Pegula sided with his new coach, McDermott, and the rest is history. 

Where is your source ? I’ve never heard of this before. 

[TBBills Fan]

On 2/23/2024 at 6:40 PM, FireChans said:

A gun is on the ground.

 

I don’t pick it up.

 

you pick it up and give it to a criminal.

 

Who did worse?

Me, I helped the criminal plan the robbery

[UKBillFan]

Oh good, another thread of Mahomes is God and Josh is rubbish. Just what we need.

[Virgil]

10 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Can we do 13 seconds again next??? 

 

 

😋

Someone woke up and chose violence today 

Edited February 25 by Virgil

[vanislebills44]

facts r facts r facts....kc has won titles, bills no...any ifs ands or buts mean nothing

n woulda coulda shoulda etc etc 

kc system helps, who knows what mahomes does in buffalo, all speculation, but what is not speculation is that the chiefs have won titles....

 

cant dispute facts

allen dawkins white edmunds neal all have helped the bills win games, just not titles......YET

[Buffalo03]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:22 PM, julian said:

Mahomes is so much better than Allen on the field, it’s so obvious KC fleeced the Bills.

 

Allen looks like a JV QB when he plays mahomes.

 

sucks to be us.

Cocaine is a hell of a drug

[Brand J]

3 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Where is your source ? I’ve never heard of this before. 

Answered in the thread.

[Neo]

In the midst of this hindsight *****, I’ll step beyond football for a moment.  Who, here, bought Apple in 2017?  Whose IRA or 401(k) sold it?  Were you fleeced?   Are you incompetent?   Or, was the consensus of the market that it was fairly priced and good to hold or sell at the market price ..  just like the market consensus when the trade was made?

 

I can go back and look at any decision you’d like me to and judge with knowledge of how it worked out later.  Instead, I’m going to see if I can get my dog to chase its tail for a few hours.

 

The trade was break even.  How Kansas City used its pick was spectacular.

 

Buffalo’s trade up for Josh Allen was break even.   How Buffalo used its pick was spectacular.

 

THAT would be an interesting topic.  Who saw what, in each organization, to make such bold commitments?   We’d have to suspend the “we got fleeced” and the “because McD” talk, of course ….  

[Drew21PA]

May not be popular but I don’t think young Patrick would have blossomed without Andy reid

 

 

[Augie]

10 hours ago, Virgil said:

Someone woke up and chose violence today 

 

This is why we spin the wheel every day! 

[Never NEVER Give-up]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:22 PM, julian said:

Mahomes is so much better than Allen on the field, it’s so obvious KC fleeced the Bills.

 

Allen looks like a JV QB when he plays mahomes.

 

sucks to be us.

The only JV on the field with Mahomes has been our Defense.  Allen is one of the best in the game - ever.  The discussions over who's better is a fool's errand.  Who's better, Kelly or Marino?  See my point?  Most would say Marino, but he couldn't beat Kelly's Bills!  So maybe Allen is better than Mahomes, but he just can't beat Mahomes' Chiefs - yet.  The point is it doesn't matter.  They'll all be back in 2024 for another go at it.  Hopefully Bean & McDermott will surround Allen with a better group to help win that elusive Super Bowl!!

[Albany,n.y.]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:31 PM, GunnerBill said:

Kansas City won the trade. Without question. They drafted the best QB in football. 

 

But the Bills did about as good a job losing a trade as you could ever do. An all pro corner and then a pick that helped them land the 2nd best QB in football the following year.

The pick from KC had nothing to do with the Allen trade.  The Allen trade consisted of trading the Bills 1st round pick (21) to Cincinnati along with Glenn for pick 12 & moving pick 12 with the Bills 2nd round pick & the 2nd round pick obtained from the Rams in the Watkins trade.  

[Utah John]

Not drafting Mahomes when we (and nine other teams) had the chance to, was a logical choice.  No one knew how good he'd be, except the Chiefs, and then they handled him absolutely perfectly.  Kudos to them. And the Bills did well with their draft picks, getting White, Allen, and Edmunds.  

 

Where the Bills really dropped the ball was not hiring McDermott's former boss, Reid, when he was unemployed.  McD is just not in Reid's league.  He's a good coach but not good enough.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

The pick from KC had nothing to do with the Allen trade.  The Allen trade consisted of trading the Bills 1st round pick (21) to Cincinnati along with Glenn for pick 12 & moving pick 12 with the Bills 2nd round pick & the 2nd round pick obtained from the Rams in the Watkins trade.  

 

Yea I have already corrected that. I agree in specific terms, you are right. But everything they did in terms of building picks for 2018 was about getting their Quarterback. So you are right they didn't use that actual pick but I still think at the point they traded back in 2017 it was about what they needed to get their guy (which turned out to be Josh). 

[SCBills]

 

[scuba guy]

So how many more times are we going to see a thread like this in the next 30 years.

 

The drum has a hole in it already 😳.  

 

Same post same comments.

 

Look at the facts does ja17 have an allpro te.  Nope. 

 

Maybe one of the best te ever.

 

Does ja17 have a great oc as a coach. Nope

 

Does ja have an offensive line that gives (holds) him 4 plus seconds to dance around. Nope.

 

Does ja17 have a teammate that has a girlfriend who is world famous. Nope

 

Does ja have a defense that came to his aid 4 years in a row in the playoffs.  Nope

 

Does ja have a punter and field goal kicker that kick for 55 yarders.  Nope.

 

When ja throws and the def are playing man and the play breaks down Does he just run for the first down.  Nope

 

Does the rat have extra man stay in the pocket to block.  Nope

 

Does the rat get pressure on every drop back nope.

 

Does the rats defense db hold and get away with it 🤔 

[mannc]

Here’s a little discussed aspect of the Mahomes Trade:  In the last game of the 2016 regular season, Rex was going to start Tyrod Taylor, to try to beat his old team in a meaningless game (the Jets were 6-9).  In one of his smartest moves as owner, Pegula fired Rex, and installed an interim coach (Anthony Lynn?) who played all the backups against the Jets, and lost.  As a result, the Bills’ draft position improved from 15 to 10, which put them in a position to make the trade with KC.

[LEBills]

44 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I have already corrected that. I agree in specific terms, you are right. But everything they did in terms of building picks for 2018 was about getting their Quarterback. So you are right they didn't use that actual pick but I still think at the point they traded back in 2017 it was about what they needed to get their guy (which turned out to be Josh). 

This is right, the KC pick was involved with the Denver trade up scenario. When Denver decided against trading, TB took our 2 seconds instead of the KC first. We added all these picks to move up for a QB, we just didn’t need to use them all.
 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2018/05/05/2018-nfl-draft-buffalo-bills-denver-broncos-trade/

[SaulGoodman]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

How did they get 13.7? 

[Billl]

48 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

How did they get 13.7? 

They’re clearly excluding the Super Bowl, because that obviously makes sense.

[Returntoglory]

3 hours ago, scuba guy said:

So how many more times are we going to see a thread like this in the next 30 years.

 

The drum has a hole in it already 😳.  

 

Same post same comments.

 

Look at the facts does ja17 have an allpro te.  Nope. 

 

Maybe one of the best te ever.

 

Does ja17 have a great oc as a coach. Nope

 

Does ja have an offensive line that gives (holds) him 4 plus seconds to dance around. Nope.

 

Does ja17 have a teammate that has a girlfriend who is world famous. Nope

 

Does ja have a defense that came to his aid 4 years in a row in the playoffs.  Nope

 

Does ja have a punter and field goal kicker that kick for 55 yarders.  Nope.

 

When ja throws and the def are playing man and the play breaks down Does he just run for the first down.  Nope

 

Does the rat have extra man stay in the pocket to block.  Nope

 

Does the rat get pressure on every drop back nope.

 

Does the rats defense db hold and get away with it 🤔 

Please post a link to any past post  on this subject.

 

I don't mean a conversation within a different post, I'm Asking for a direct post on this subject.

 

Thanks

[SaulGoodman]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

They’re clearly excluding the Super Bowl, because that obviously makes sense.

Ah, right….who cares about how a defense performs in that game?

 

Guess a guy’s not allowed to have a decent defense once in 6 years, even if his receivers and tackles suck? 

[SCBills]

23 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Ah, right….who cares about how a defense performs in that game?

 

Guess a guy’s not allowed to have a decent defense once in 6 years, even if his receivers and tackles suck? 

Spags has the KC Defense playing pretty well most playoffs.  
 

and poor KC, Mahomes has a bad OL once and got wrecked because of it.  Was blessed with Hill/Kelce and now… awww… all y’all get is an all-time TE and multiple high round picks at WR. 
 

Last year top 2 OL. 
 

This year Top tier Defense.  
 

KC runs the league but Chiefs fans stay insecure the second anyone challenges the notion that Mahomes has been blessed beyond measure with the organization/teams around him. 
 

 

Edited February 25 by SCBills

[Success]

17 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Spags has the KC Defense playing pretty well most playoffs.  
 

and poor KC, Mahomes has a bad OL once and got wrecked because of it.  Was blessed with Hill/Kelce and now… awww… all y’all get is an all-time TE and multiple high round picks at WR. 
 

Last year top 2 OL. 
 

This year Top tier Defense.  
 

KC runs the league but Chiefs fans stay insecure the second anyone challenges the notion that Mahomes has been blessed beyond measure with the organization/teams around him. 
 

 

 

And it's on another team's board (which already & annoyingly has overflowing praise for Mahomes), literally within days of their team winning a 2nd straight SB.  

 

 

[SaulGoodman]

23 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Spags has the KC Defense playing pretty well most playoffs.  
 

and poor KC, Mahomes has a bad OL once and got wrecked because of it.  Was blessed with Hill/Kelce and now… awww… all y’all get is an all-time TE and multiple high round picks at WR. 
 

Last year top 2 OL. 
 

This year Top tier Defense.  
 

KC runs the league but Chiefs fans stay insecure the second anyone challenges the notion that Mahomes has been blessed beyond measure with the organization/teams around him. 
 

 

Well, sure he’s had some talented players and solid coaches. So has Allen.
 

Mahomes’ defenses have been worse than Allen’s regular season or postseason by any measure until this year. The difference is that he never faces the Chiefs. Plus, it’s not like his defenses have shut down Buffalo. They just get a few stops. 
 

Pretty much all my takes are echoed by most national analysts. They aren’t crazy, uncommon opinions. 

[Success]

2 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Well, sure he’s had some talented players and solid coaches. So has Allen.
 

Mahomes’ defenses have been worse than Allen’s regular season or postseason by any measure until this year. The difference is that he never faces the Chiefs. Plus, it’s not like his defenses have shut down Buffalo. They just get a few stops. 
 

Pretty much all my takes are echoed by most national analysts. They aren’t crazy, uncommon opinions. 

 

The bolded seems to be the go-to as some sort of "proof."

 

But I don't think the bolded is accurate.  I've heard plenty of analysts say that Allen has to carry his team more than any other top QB, and that Reid is one of the best coaches of all time.  And analysts correctly hyped the Chiefs '23 defense, all through the season & playoffs.

 

[SaulGoodman]

17 minutes ago, Success said:

 

The bolded seems to be the go-to as some sort of "proof."

 

But I don't think the bolded is accurate.  I've heard plenty of analysts say that Allen has to carry his team more than any other top QB, and that Reid is one of the best coaches of all time.  And analysts correctly hyped the Chiefs '23 defense, all through the season & playoffs.

 

Who was saying that this year?
 

As for Andy Reid, he’s one of the most successful coaches of all time. I’ve never said otherwise. I’ve just pointed out facts. Such as…the Andy Reid narrative was very different in 2018, when he had a losing record in the playoffs and was coming off a home loss to Marcus Mariota. 
 

Obviously anyone is going to rate Reid higher than McDermott. And Kelce higher than Kincaid. But the main difference in both cases is longevity. McD’s first several years are pretty comparable to Reid’s first several. And is there really a huge difference between Kelce and Kincaid as of the Buffalo game? Kelce’s slowing down. I won’t be surprised at all if Kincaid has the better stats next season. 

[Success]

2 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Who was saying that this year?
 

As for Andy Reid, he’s one of the most successful coaches of all time. I’ve never said otherwise. I’ve just pointed out facts. Such as…the Andy Reid narrative was very different in 2018, when he had a losing record in the playoffs and was coming off a home loss to Marcus Mariota. 
 

Obviously anyone is going to rate Reid higher than McDermott. And Kelce higher than Kincaid. But the main difference in both cases is longevity. McD’s first several years are pretty comparable to Reid’s first several. And is there really a huge difference between Kelce and Kincaid as of the Buffalo game? Kelce’s slowing down. I won’t be surprised at all if Kincaid has the better stats next season. 

 

Mahomes has had a much better situation, from the start.

 

It's cool, though.  It doesn't mean Mahomes is a bad QB or anything.

 

[SaulGoodman]

7 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Mahomes has had a much better situation, from the start.

 

It's cool, though.  It doesn't mean Mahomes is a bad QB or anything.

 

Okay, let’s look at 2022. Allen had the #1 rated roster and Mahomes the #8. Mahomes had a high ankle sprain at the beginning of the first playoff game and played the AFC title game without several key players. 
 

Was Mahomes’ situation far better in 2022?

[Success]

2 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Okay, let’s look at 2022. Allen had the #1 rated roster and Mahomes the #8. Mahomes had a high ankle sprain at the beginning of the first playoff game and played the AFC title game without several key players. 
 

Was Mahomes’ situation far better in 2022?

 

My conclusion in the last post I made is final, and irrefutable.

 

Everything else is just fluff.

 

[SaulGoodman]

4 minutes ago, Success said:

 

My conclusion in the last post I made is final, and irrefutable.

 

Everything else is just fluff.

 

Admitting that you’ve made up your mind and facts don’t matter?

 

That’s no different than saying it’s irrefutable that Mahomes is a better QB than Allen.

[Success]

15 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Admitting that you’ve made up your mind and facts don’t matter?

 

That’s no different than saying it’s irrefutable that Mahomes is a better QB than Allen.

 

But my opinion is BASED in facts.  Who said they don't matter?

 

[Returntoglory]

18 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

Admitting that you’ve made up your mind and facts don’t matter?

 

That’s no different than saying it’s irrefutable that Mahomes is a better QB than Allen.

How do you measure a Quarterbacks success?

 

bet·ter1

adjective

1.

of a more excellent or effective type or quality.

 

Similar:

superior

finer

of higher quality

greater

in a different class

one step ahead

more acceptable

preferable

recommended

a cut above

streets ahead

head and shoulders above

ahead of the pack/field