FireChans Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 56 minutes ago, Peter said: As I have said before, if we did not have the good fortune to draft Josh and Josh developing the way he did, McD would forever be know as the idiot that traded the opportunity to pick Mahomes who not only is a generational QB but also a thorn in our side every year. Also, without Josh, McD would have been fired long ago as well as being remembered for making this trade. McD and we should thank our lucky stars that we have Josh. They targeted Josh and developed him. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Just now, beebe said: Buffalo's defensive ranks since 2018... Points allowed: 2018 - 18th 2019 - 2nd 2020 - 16th 2021: 1st 2022: 2nd 2023: 4th Defensive DVOA: 2018 - 2nd 2019 - 6th 2020 - 11th 2021 - 1st 2022 - 2nd 2023 - 12th In points, McDermott's D has outperformed the offense four times, tied once, and was worse once (2020). In DVOA, McDermott's D has outperformed the offense three times, tied once, and was worse twice (2020, 2023). Overall, if you take the six seasons cumulatively over the entire league, no defense in the NFL has finished better than the Bills in defensive DVOA. Obviously, McDermott's playoff failures vs the Chiefs are well documented, but he would have for sure held his own with a league-average QB. Nah. Except for the Ravens playoff game, the D has underachieved in the playoffs. You present a lot of stats out of context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beebe Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 12 minutes ago, Success said: Nah. Except for the Ravens playoff game, the D has underachieved in the playoffs. You present a lot of stats out of context. What stats are out of context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaulGoodman Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Success said: I 100% believe Allen would be as successful as Mahomes if he was playing for KC. If not more.. What now? You can claim whatever you want to believe. That’s the beauty of what if scenarios. The difference is, my opinions on Mahomes are mirrored by practically every analyst and pundit. You probably also believe that Allen would have more SBs than Brady if he had played in NE, since he has the bigger arm and all. Edited February 24 by SaulGoodman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 25 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said: You can claim whatever you want to believe. That’s the beauty of what if scenarios. The difference is, my opinions on Mahomes are mirrored by practically every analyst and pundit. You probably also believe that Allen would have more SBs than Brady if he had played in NE, since he has the bigger arm and all. Mirrored by every analyst & pundit? In the age of hot-take sports media? The fun thing on that is, we can all experience the joy of watching those narratives turn on a dime over the next decade+. I'm not sure if Allen would have gotten 6 for the Pats, but who knows. He might have gotten 7 or 8. And thank you, btw. It's awesome that I can have my own opinion about Josh Allen & the Bills - on a Bills board. Edited February 24 by Success Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beebe Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) Because I was curious. Here's another McDermott stat to add additional context... Since 2018, Buffalo's takeaways: 2023: 30 (3rd) 2022: 27 (5th) 2021: 30 (3rd) 2020: 26 (3rd) 2019: 23 (10th) 2018: 27 (8th) In the six year span, the Bills are cumulatively the #1 defense in the league at takeaways. The offense, meanwhile, has been better than league average (barely) at giveaways only twice in six years, and has finished 21st, 25th, 30th and 31st. If you would like me to provide additional context, we can try to figure out how many times McDermott's defenses have had to start possessions in their own territory following Buffalo's 150 giveaways—an average of 25 per season—which is among the worst in the league in that span. Edited February 24 by beebe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 2 minutes ago, beebe said: Because I was curious. Here's another McDermott stat to add additional context... Since 2018, Buffalo's takeaways: 2023: 30 (3rd) 2022: 27 (5th) 2021: 30 (3rd) 2020: 26 (3rd) 2019: 23 (10th) 2018: 27 (8th) In the six year span, the Bills are cumulatively the #1 defense in the league at takeaways. The offense, meanwhile, has been better than league average (barely) at giveaways only twice in six years, and has finished 21st, 25th, 30th and 31st. If you would like me to provide additional context, we can try to figure out how many times McDermott's defenses have had to start possessions in their own territory following Buffalo's 150 giveaways—an average of 25 per season—which is among the worst in the league in that span. So why does the world-class McDermott defense disappear in the playoffs, against more teams than the one led by the immortal Mahomes? It's a head-scratcher. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 44 minutes ago, beebe said: Buffalo's defensive ranks since 2018... Points allowed: 2018 - 18th 2019 - 2nd 2020 - 16th 2021: 1st 2022: 2nd 2023: 4th Defensive DVOA: 2018 - 2nd 2019 - 6th 2020 - 11th 2021 - 1st 2022 - 2nd 2023 - 12th In points, McDermott's D has outperformed the offense four times, tied once, and was worse once (2020). In DVOA, McDermott's D has outperformed the offense three times, tied once, and was worse twice (2020, 2023). Overall, if you take the six seasons cumulatively over the entire league, no defense in the NFL has finished better than the Bills in defensive DVOA. Obviously, McDermott's playoff failures vs the Chiefs are well documented, but he would have for sure held his own with a league-average QB. How many wins would we have had over the past few years without Josh???? 43 minutes ago, FireChans said: They targeted Josh and developed him. We were very lucky that he was available and very lucky that he developed. I stand by what I said: if we did not have Josh, McD would be remembered as the guy who traded the opportunity to pick a generational QB (against the owner’s wishes) and would have been long gone by now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beebe Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Success said: So why does the world-class McDermott defense disappear in the playoffs, against more teams than the one led by the immortal Mahomes? It's a head-scratcher. Have already gone through this in another thread. Against non Chiefs teams (2019 thru 2023), Buffalo's defense gives up an average of 19.7 points and 5.1 yards per play in the playoffs. That's exactly on par with their regular season performance during the same years (2019 thru 2023), where they allowed 19.2 points and 5.14 yards per play. Buffalo has faced some very non-scary offenses in the playoffs, but on the whole, every offense they've faced has at least been average to above average. Their overall degree of difficulty in terms of playoff offenses faced has almost certainly been harder than what they typically face in a regular season. #17 Texans offense (2019) #10 Colts offense (2020) #11 Ravens offense (2020) #2 Chiefs offense (2020) #10 Patriots offense (2021) #3 Chiefs offense (2021) #6 Dolphins* offense (2022) #4 Bengals offense (2022) #15 Steelers offense (2023) #8 Chiefs offense (2023) *Miami started Skylar Thompson at QB and had just 3.3 yards per play, but Buffalo turned it over three times and allowed a defensive TD. It rates out as a good defensive performance, but came against what was likely a slightly below league avg offense given the QB switch rather than the 6th-rated offense. Overall, Buffalo's defense played well enough for them to beat the Ravens, Patriots, Dolphins and Steelers. They were above average vs the Texans and lost and they were below average vs the Colts and won. In the end, they won five playoff games against these six teams. Buffalo's real defensive struggles have come against probably the four best offenses they've faced: KC, KC, Cincinnati, KC. Similar to this year (lost Milano, Bernard for playoffs), the worst of Buffalo's injuries in past years have also been on defense. They played last year without Von Miller and Micah Hyde vs the Bengals. They were without Tre White the year before in the loss to the Chiefs. Edited February 24 by beebe 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Incorrect. They got Tre White and Tremaine Edmunds for the only notable draft pick value that they acquired for the Patrick Mahomes pick trade. People have been mis-stating for years that the Bills were able to move up for Allen with draft pick capital acquired in the Mahomes pick trade...........surprised you are one of them. No, you are right... 2nd first turned into Tremaine now I think more specfically. It was our 1st, our 2nd, the Watkins 2nd and Cordy Glenn to get up for Josh. Their 1st and our 3rd (or possibly the Tyrod 3rd, don't recall) for Tremaine. I suppose I tend to think everything they did in terms of collecting assets for that draft was about getting their Quarterback, slightly regardless of how the exact pic exchanges worked out but you are right in factual terms Josh wasn't from the Mahomes pick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaulGoodman Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) 3 hours ago, Success said: Mirrored by every analyst & pundit? In the age of hot-take sports media? The fun thing on that is, we can all experience the joy of watching those narratives turn on a dime over the next decade+. I'm not sure if Allen would have gotten 6 for the Pats, but who knows. He might have gotten 7 or 8. And thank you, btw. It's awesome that I can have my own opinion about Josh Allen & the Bills - on a Bills board. So….the player who’s been much more mistake-prone (137 INTs/fumbles vs 99 in fewer games) with a defense that has provided far more takeaways (163 to 138) would have accomplished more than Mahomes in KC? By upgrading his offensive talent for a few seasons while downgrading defensively every year but one? Seems doubtful. Especially considering Allen was very inaccurate his first two years (at that point Mahomes had already notched a historic MVP season and a SB victory). KC had better offensive skill players during Mahomes’ first few years but hasn’t the last few. They’ve also had a weak running game most years, weak tackle play in half of Mahomes’ seasons, receivers that led the league in drops by a mile this year, the worst run blocking in the league for a few years, and weak defense every year but one. They’ve also been among the most penalized teams annually while their opponents are among the least. Somehow this adds up to a situation so much better than Allen’s that he’d have 6x as many AFC title game appearances as he has now, 3 or more SB rings and at least two MVPs? Also, is the difference in coaching as drastic as you make it out to be if one of Reid’s most lauded plays was stolen from the “uncreative” Bills? And was it the defense’s fault that Allen led his offense to 10 points vs Cincinnati last year? A hobbled Mahomes scored more than twice as many points vs the same team the next week, while throwing to a depleted WR corps consisting of MVS, Skyy Moore and Marcus Kemp from the practice squad. I don’t think the facts support your assertion. Edited February 24 by SaulGoodman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pennstate10 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 9 hours ago, julian said: Yeah… what a complete donkey show at OBD, people need to be fired. WHY ????? WHY ????? , it should be us, not them. This sucks OK, let’s think this through. Bradshaw, Brady, Mahomes, and Montana. These are the best QBs of the superbowl era. Anyone disagree? Whats the common theme in their draft positions? Nothing !! Not a f,,,ing thing! Drafting QBs is a crapshoot. For every example like this, there is an example of trading three 1s and a 2 for Robert Griffin. Or Sam Darnold. KC gambled and won. Good for them. Put it to rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 5 hours ago, Success said: So why does the world-class McDermott defense disappear in the playoffs, against more teams than the one led by the immortal Mahomes? It's a head-scratcher. Not to me... one word...injuries! The Bills played the Chiefs with a guy two weeks off the street at 3rd string linebacker who was also injured in that KC playoff game and had to leave for a while. He went back in because there was nobody behind him. Half the Buffalo defense was on crutches for that game. What other team could lose their two best players on defense and still finish the 4th in points allowed and 9th in yards for the season? Von Miller wasn't the same guy on the mend from his season-ender in 2022. Injuries on the defense the last two seasons. The Bills lost that KC playoff game by a missed FG. The only other NFL team with more wins over the last five seasons is the Chiefs. On another note, If Andy Reid retires and or Travis Kelce retires or has a severe injury we will see how great Mahomes is...Andy Reid is the best HC in the NFL and Kelce is the best TE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortchaz Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 4 hours ago, beebe said: Have already gone through this in another thread. Against non Chiefs teams (2019 thru 2023), Buffalo's defense gives up an average of 19.7 points and 5.1 yards per play in the playoffs. That's exactly on par with their regular season performance during the same years (2019 thru 2023), where they allowed 19.2 points and 5.14 yards per play. Buffalo has faced some very non-scary offenses in the playoffs, but on the whole, every offense they've faced has at least been average to above average. Their overall degree of difficulty in terms of playoff offenses faced has almost certainly been harder than what they typically face in a regular season. #17 Texans offense (2019) #10 Colts offense (2020) #11 Ravens offense (2020) #2 Chiefs offense (2020) #10 Patriots offense (2021) #3 Chiefs offense (2021) #6 Dolphins* offense (2022) #4 Bengals offense (2022) #15 Steelers offense (2023) #8 Chiefs offense (2023) *Miami started Skylar Thompson at QB and had just 3.3 yards per play, but Buffalo turned it over three times and allowed a defensive TD. It rates out as a good defensive performance, but came against what was likely a slightly below league avg offense given the QB switch rather than the 6th-rated offense. Overall, Buffalo's defense played well enough for them to beat the Ravens, Patriots, Dolphins and Steelers. They were above average vs the Texans and lost and they were below average vs the Colts and won. In the end, they won five playoff games against these six teams. Buffalo's real defensive struggles have come against probably the four best offenses they've faced: KC, KC, Cincinnati, KC. Similar to this year (lost Milano, Bernard for playoffs), the worst of Buffalo's injuries in past years have also been on defense. They played last year without Von Miller and Micah Hyde vs the Bengals. They were without Tre White the year before in the loss to the Chiefs. You are correct, the bills’ defense does fall apart in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerovoltz Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 It's amazing that this topic comes up over and over again. The Bills did not trade Mahomes to the Chiefs. The Bills traded the 10th overall pick in the 2017 Draft to KC. KC had been talking to the McDermott pretty much since the day he got hired, about moving up IF the board fell in ways that both teams were compelled to move up for KC, and down for Buffalo. KC was trying to move up to pick 5 once the festivities started. When pick 10 arrived, KC wanted to come up because Mahomes was still on the board. I can't stress enough, the McDermott had only been at the job 1 month. He is a D minded coach and did not consider himself qualified to be making a choice about a QB. Watson and Mahomes both were on the board when pick 10 came up. He decided it would be best to gather AMMO for next year, when they'd have a GM in place and they could evaluate and be on the same page about a QB in what was billed as a GREAT QB draft year in 2018. (2017 was not considered a good QB year) McDermott having traded away pick 10, (NOT MAHOMES) did about as well in 2018 as you possibly could! Josh Allen. For all McD knew, KC had moved up for Watson. He didn't know who they'd take at 10 out of Watson or Mahomes. It's quite likely the biggest Win/Win trades in NFL history how it's turned out and yet so many here think it's the Bills/McD fault KC got Mahomes. Is it the 49ers fault the Bears Got Trubisky? Afterall, the Bears traded up to two and made that choice. No one in Chicago blames San Francisco for "giving" Trubisky to the Bears. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigs Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 (edited) Chiefs got the best thrower since Brady. Multiple SBs Bills got the best Athlete since Jim Thorpe. Will win at least 1 SB, worst case scenario. He's way too good in the playoffs to not finally get one, let's be real. I've seen so many QBs who "coulda/shoulda" but they couldn't hold Allen's jock. Win-Win. They get Jimmy Page, we got Eddie Van Halen. Mahomes will be remembered, but Allen will be revered. Edited February 24 by Gigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlCowlingsTaxiService Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Hey, at least Josh Allen was a better consolation prize than Jack eichel was for the sabres 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finn Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 15 hours ago, Virgil said: I wouldn't trade Josh Allen for anything. Keep Mahomes' wife and brother the hell away from this team. People used to ask if I would trade for Brady or the Hoodie for one ring, and I said no. Same answer with Mahomes. Also, absolutely no one could have predicted Mahomes was going to have the career he's had. He fell to 10 for a reason. Yes, some people thought he had potential, but at the time, no one was harping on the Bills for that trade Yes, at the time it was a good trade. But in retrospect, the Bills clearly got the better deal. Allen AND White for Mahomes? The impact of the trade is distorted because Mahomes landed on a team that had everything but a quarterback, Allen on a team that had squat (anyone besides Milano?) and was starting from scratch with a new regime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 15 hours ago, Virgil said: I wouldn't trade Josh Allen for anything. Keep Mahomes' wife and brother the hell away from this team. People used to ask if I would trade for Brady or the Hoodie for one ring, and I said no. Same answer with Mahomes. Also, absolutely no one could have predicted Mahomes was going to have the career he's had. He fell to 10 for a reason. Yes, some people thought he had potential, but at the time, no one was harping on the Bills for that trade Not quite true LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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