What is your unpopular Bills opinion?

[May Day 10]

I take pride in our table smashing and general hijinks.

 

We don't have many fights or violence in our crowd compared to other places.  

 

Imo our rep as fun and welcoming is best in the league.  Embrace the goofiness.  Including feeding the pit

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Everyone loses to Mahomes in the playoffs. His three playoff losses:

 

1. To Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. I hear those guys were pretty good.

2. To Tom Brady and Bruce Arians (with third stringers manning both his offensive tackle spots no less).

3. To Joe Burrow and Zac Taylor in overtime (and honestly Taylor is not that good of a Head Coach despite having that win on his resume).

 

With Josh, McDermott has never lost to a bad Quarterback. He lost to pre-legal situation Watson at a point when he was still ahead of Josh in his development. He has lost 3x to Mahomes and once to Joe Burrow. Most folks have those two as the other "elite" level guys with Josh. If he starts losing playoff games to middle of the road QBs - Tua etc then I think a LOT of us would be way more likely to agree with the criticism. But for now it remains pretty ridiculous and over the top. 

That HoF coach Dungy lost to the Herm Edwards’ Jets in the WC, the Pats in the AFCCG, the Pats in the divisional, the Steelers in the divisional in a four year span. With PEYTON MANNING, Harrison, Wayne. 
 

But McD only basically losing to the GOAT is somehow malpractice. Dungy is a HoFer despite losing to Chad Pennington and McD should be sweeping up movie theaters because he can’t regularly beat what might end up being the greatest QB/Coach combo of all time.

[The Frankish Reich]

Labatt's Blue is a crap beer.

Chicken wings, I can take 'em or leave 'em.

[BillsPride12]

15 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Labatt's Blue is a crap beer.

Chicken wings, I can take 'em or leave 'em.

[The Frankish Reich]

20 minutes ago, BillsPride12 said:

But Buffalo Pizza is the best pizza in the world.

Can I come back in?

[Another Fan]

3 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Labatt's Blue is a crap beer.

Chicken wings, I can take 'em or leave 'em.

I like Labatt's but agree with you about wings.

 

Beef on weck is one of my favorite sandwiches though 

[Another Fan]

I appreciate Fitz's personality, his Bills fandom, and him trying to make it work when he was a Bill.

 

 

 

But I mean it's hard for me to look the other way he really wasn't that good once he got his big contract.  His stats looked respectable because his TD's came mostly in garbage time.  He was nicknamed Picks Patrick for a reason.  

[Kirby Jackson]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

At least as far as McD is not “better than McD.” You tried to stretch out your definition. 
 

There’s no real reason to nitpick “a few.” Half of these people are absolute jokes to include. The other half has just as much failure at their feet as McD does. 
 

“McD is wasting Josh Allen” like LaFleur did getting blown out by the Niners every year with Rodgers? I guess wasting the last 5 years (2 MVP seasons) of a HoF isn’t “malpractice.” Lmao.
 

If you step back and actually examine every HC you listed here instead of crucifying McD, you’d realize that almost none of those guys have proven anything MORE than McD.
 

“Oh no, McD loses to Mahomes in the playoffs, that means he sucks, because other teams get to play the Jags or Texans or Bucs or Lions and then lose to the Chiefs later in the bracket. This is a fair critique”

You tried to call a bluff asking for a list. I gave you a list of people that could have done at least what he did. That IS the definition that we are looking for. If you gave that list, the rosters of the last 6 years, you’d have more than 1 conference championship appearance. There are other coaches that I believe could have as well but are not “eligible” per the criteria that I used. Ben Johnson, for example might be better than McDermott but I didn’t even consider him and STILL had 1/2 of the coaches in the league. 
 

You’re evaluating a bunch of coaches success WITHOUT factoring in the gap from their QB to Josh Allen. You use LaFleur as an example ignoring that he went to back-to-back NFC Championships with those teams. That’s >>>> McDermott’s accomplishments. McDermott is bad with talent. He’s Doug Collins. In 12 months, we will be sitting here making excuses for why his team/defense failed in the playoffs again. It’s Groundhog Day.

 

 

[corta765]

1 hour ago, Another Fan said:

I appreciate Fitz's personality, his Bills fandom, and him trying to make it work when he was a Bill.

 

 

 

But I mean it's hard for me to look the other way he really wasn't that good once he got his big contract.  His stats looked respectable because his TD's came mostly in garbage time.  He was nicknamed Picks Patrick for a reason.  

 

I will go a step further and it is complete crap how he is borderline Saint level to a lot of Bills fans and his teams never were close the playoffs. Meanwhile Tyrod actually had some good seasons at QB and the team made it one year and was far closer the other two and the dude doesn't get near the same level of respect.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You tried to call a bluff asking for a list. I gave you a list of people that could have done at least what he did. That IS the definition that we are looking for. If you gave that list, the rosters of the last 6 years, you’d have more than 1 conference championship appearance. There are other coaches that I believe could have as well but are not “eligible” per the criteria that I used. Ben Johnson, for example might be better than McDermott but I didn’t even consider him and STILL had 1/2 of the coaches in the league. 
 

You’re evaluating a bunch of coaches success WITHOUT factoring in the gap from their QB to Josh Allen. You use LaFleur as an example ignoring that he went to back-to-back NFC Championships with those teams. That’s >>>> McDermott’s accomplishments. McDermott is bad with talent. He’s Doug Collins. In 12 months, we will be sitting here making excuses for why his team/defense failed in the playoffs again. It’s Groundhog Day.

 

 

You’re trying too hard to Papa Doc this discussion. 
 

The bottom line is the biggest problem for Buffalo, Allen and McD is that they are in the same conference as Mahomes and Reid. 
 

If they were an NFC team, they would’ve been in a Super Bowl by now. The floor you are describing of McD that other coaches “could” accomplish says more about the level of competition we face almost every year.

[Kirby Jackson]

22 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You’re trying too hard to Papa Doc this discussion. 
 

The bottom line is the biggest problem for Buffalo, Allen and McD is that they are in the same conference as Mahomes and Reid. 
 

If they were an NFC team, they would’ve been in a Super Bowl by now. The floor you are describing of McD that other coaches “could” accomplish says more about the level of competition we face almost every year.

He’s failing a generational talent.

In your previous response you replied that “half of the list was an absolute joke.” Please identify the 8-9 coaches on that list that are “an absolute joke” compared to McDermott.

[LabattBlue]

34 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He’s failing a generational talent.

This 100%.  👍🏻

[Another Fan]

1 hour ago, corta765 said:

 

I will go a step further and it is complete crap how he is borderline Saint level to a lot of Bills fans and his teams never were close the playoffs. Meanwhile Tyrod actually had some good seasons at QB and the team made it one year and was far closer the other two and the dude doesn't get near the same level of respect.

To me that’s a fair take.

 

I would say overall Fitz and Tyrod were about the same quality QB during their Bills years.  Tyrod to me had a better supporting cast than Fitz though.  

 

But yeah the worshiping Fitz and Tyrod having what seems like a negative stigma around him seems a bit unfair 

[FireChans]

26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He’s failing a generational talent.

In your previous response you replied that “half of the list was an absolute joke.” Please identify the 8-9 coaches on that list that are “an absolute joke” compared to McDermott.

 

12 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I won’t count any 1st time HCs even though guys like McDonald could be on here pretty quickly. At LEAST 2 or 3 will be better than McDermott. I’ll give you 17 here. This will be a list of people that would take this Bills roster AT LEAST as far as McDermott.

In no particular order:

Reid

Shanahan

Campbell

LaFleur - joke

Tomlin - joke

Ryans

Stefanski - joke

McVay

Harbaugh

Harbaugh -joke

Payton - joke

Bowles - joke

Steichen

Taylor

Peterson - joke

Sirianni - joke

McDaniel- joke

 

Some of you have an altered perception of McDermott as a coach. With prime Josh Allen and a top 5 defense (that he deserves credit for) you SHOULD be better than 5-6 in the playoffs (5-5 with Allen). If you gave this era (2018-now) to any of the above guys you’d have at least 1 Super Bowl appearance. This list avoids all 1st hcs, coordinators and college coaches. There are certainly a bunch of people on those lists that could have done more with 6 years of this group.
 

Now I know how these lists work on here. Someone is going to be like, “I can’t believe that you think McDaniel and Bowles are better.” You’ll nitpick a few and concede the other 15. The Bills have PRIME JOAH ALLEN and ONE CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIP APPEARANCE in 6 years. That’s borderline malpractice and ABSOLUTELY fireable. 

 

Easy peasy. 
 

LaFleur failed an actual generational talent in Rodgers. Mortified in the postseason 3 years in a row with the 2x or 3x MVP at QB, losing to Jimmy G twice. He also kicked a field goal down 8 instead of going for it in the playoffs in the redzone. Math is hard.

 

Tomlin is a joke. His claim to fame is not being a loser and not being a winner either and winning a Super Bowl when Josh Allen was in middle school.

 

ditto on Ravens Harbaugh, except his team also has gotten mortified in the postseason with 2x MVP Lamar. Is 2-4 in the playoffs good?
 

Stefanski? Bowles? Shouldn’t even dignify those with a response. If you think McD struggles with clock management and when to be aggressive, Todd Bowles is McD with agoraphobia. 
 

Payton missed the playoffs three years in a row with an actual generational HoF QB. Talk about wasting talent, that’s much better than losing to the GOAT in the conference in the playoffs. Lmao. He also got 70 pieced this year. 

 

Dougie P was a one hit wonder, he’s a competent coach but his team was in the running for the 2 seed with a generational QB and tons of weapons and lost 5/6 including a meaningless game to the Titans to MISS THE POSTSEASON. Coach of the year stuff, I tell ya. 
 

Nick Sirianni is going to be fired probably around week 8, and they have made him fire his entire staff because of how bad the Eagles melted down. 10-1 to a first round inglorious exit to the Bucs and the aforementioned horrific Todd Bowles? With a team that talented? Yikes.

For McDaniel, you can basically copy paste the Dougie P section, except he’s done it twice. I get it, he’s a good offensive mind, but I think he’s won 2 games after November in 2 seasons? Fumbled the division to the Bills twice? 0-2 in the postseason? Is that the stuff of elite coaching? 
 

Yeah, your meter is off. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You’re evaluating a bunch of coaches success WITHOUT factoring in the gap from their QB to Josh Allen.

 

This is a common flaw in the arguments of McDermott defenders. They'll say our roster is more to blame than McDermott's coaching, but then turn around and say "if Shanahan is better than McDermott why isn't he able to win a Super Bowl or beat Mahomes??" while shamelessly ignoring the difference between Garrappolo/Mullens/Purdy and Allen. Give Shanahan Allen and he'd already have at least one Super Bowl win. This is plainly obvious.

 

Edited February 14 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

well since you asked lol

 

pegula and his kids should quietly concede the next 3 seasons to the Chiefs, form a committee w the intent of trading Allen for multiple firsts+dumping McDermott and Beane in one fell swoop and pray Reid decides to hang it up after getting to 5 Super Bowl wins

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is a common flaw in the arguments of McDermott defenders. They'll say our roster is more to blame than McDermott's coaching, but then turn around and say "if Shanahan is better than McDermott why isn't he able to win a Super Bowl or beat Mahomes??" while shamelessly ignoring the difference between Garrappolo/Mullens/Purdy and Allen. Give Shanahan Allen and he'd already have at least one Super Bowl win. This is plainly obvious.

 

of course it is

 

Allen on the Niners would have two Super Bowls by now in 2020 and this most recent one

 

McDermott on the Niners and I'm not sure they're even winning their division

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Unpopular- this is the year to move on from Diggs.

[Kirby Jackson]

19 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

Easy peasy. 
 

LaFleur failed an actual generational talent in Rodgers. Mortified in the postseason 3 years in a row with the 2x or 3x MVP at QB, losing to Jimmy G twice. He also kicked a field goal down 8 instead of going for it in the playoffs in the redzone. Math is hard.

 

Tomlin is a joke. His claim to fame is not being a loser and not being a winner either and winning a Super Bowl when Josh Allen was in middle school.

 

ditto on Ravens Harbaugh, except his team also has gotten mortified in the postseason with 2x MVP Lamar. Is 2-4 in the playoffs good?
 

Stefanski? Bowles? Shouldn’t even dignify those with a response. If you think McD struggles with clock management and when to be aggressive, Todd Bowles is McD with agoraphobia. 
 

Payton missed the playoffs three years in a row with an actual generational HoF QB. Talk about wasting talent, that’s much better than losing to the GOAT in the conference in the playoffs. Lmao. He also got 70 pieced this year. 

 

Dougie P was a one hit wonder, he’s a competent coach but his team was in the running for the 2 seed with a generational QB and tons of weapons and lost 5/6 including a meaningless game to the Titans to MISS THE POSTSEASON. Coach of the year stuff, I tell ya. 
 

Nick Sirianni is going to be fired probably around week 8, and they have made him fire his entire staff because of how bad the Eagles melted down. 10-1 to a first round inglorious exit to the Bucs and the aforementioned horrific Todd Bowles? With a team that talented? Yikes.

For McDaniel, you can basically copy paste the Dougie P section, except he’s done it twice. I get it, he’s a good offensive mind, but I think he’s won 2 games after November in 2 seasons? Fumbled the division to the Bills twice? 0-2 in the postseason? Is that the stuff of elite coaching? 
 

Yeah, your meter is off. 

I mean some of this is just crazy 😂😂😂. Payton won a Super Bowl and was THE WORST CALL OF ALL-TIME from a 2nd. Tomlin has 1. Pederson has 1. Stefanski and Bowles have both succeeded with lesser QBs. Again, you’re trying to say that McDermott > Payton, Tomlin, Harbaugh. 😂😂 Give Tomlin Josh Allen and he wins 2. 

Edited February 14 by Kirby Jackson

[HappyDays]

24 minutes ago, FireChans said:

LaFleur failed an actual generational talent in Rodgers. Mortified in the postseason 3 years in a row with the 2x or 3x MVP at QB, losing to Jimmy G twice. He also kicked a field goal down 8 instead of going for it in the playoffs in the redzone. Math is hard.

 

Rodgers performed as well as Allen has in the playoffs exactly once, and it was the year he won a Super Bowl with freaking Mike McCarthy. That is what generational playoff QB play should get you. Not a couple of divisional round exits.

 

Many people in this discussion still underrate how good Allen has been in the playoffs. Most notably the 2021-2022 season playoffs and this year's. That sort of sustained elite play in the playoffs is incredibly rare. Rodgers has done it once in a 20 year career. Allen has done it twice in a 6 year career. Both times he has a divisional round exit to show for it. If that sort of elite QB play isn't enough to even get past the divisional round, everybody above him should 100% be fired. Because we aren't going to get better than that.

 

And this is the part where someone will say "well the QB on the other side was Mahomes!!" But Mahomes himself didn't sustain that play in the playoffs except against the Bills. In 2022 he laid a clunker against the Bengals in the AFCCG. Last year he was good, not elite, in the AFCCG. This year he followed up his victory over us with two games where he led his offense to a combined 3 points in two of the four halfs. It is ONLY against the McDermott coached Bills where the Chiefs have managed to overcome an elite QB performance on the other side.

 

Like imagine if Allen led our offense to 3 points or 0 points in any half of any playoff game that we played. Against any opponent it would be a loss. Against a good opponent it would be a blowout loss. Our coach can't even come close to beating a good playoff opponent unless Allen delivers an elite performance, and even then it isn't enough. And I'm really truly sick of it.

 

So here's my unpopular opinion - Allen has been the best performing QB in the playoffs from the 2021 season to this year. McDermott has been the worst performing head coach in the playoffs over that same time frame. Mahomes has been marginally less elite than Allen in the playoffs over that time but Reid + Spagnuolo have been several tiers above McDermott and that's why we can't beat them

[Bills!Win!]

The bills will be better in 2024. Micah Hyde was a weakness in run defense 

Edited February 14 by Bills!Win!

[GASabresIUFan]

The Bills trade out of the 1st round to get an extra pick in the 3rd round.

[FireChans]

26 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Rodgers performed as well as Allen has in the playoffs exactly once, and it was the year he won a Super Bowl with freaking Mike McCarthy. That is what generational playoff QB play should get you. Not a couple of divisional round exits.

 

Many people in this discussion still underrate how good Allen has been in the playoffs. Most notably the 2021-2022 season playoffs and this year's. That sort of sustained elite play in the playoffs is incredibly rare. Rodgers has done it once in a 20 year career. Allen has done it twice in a 6 year career. Both times he has a divisional round exit to show for it. If that sort of elite QB play isn't enough to even get past the divisional round, everybody above him should 100% be fired. Because we aren't going to get better than that.

 

And this is the part where someone will say "well the QB on the other side was Mahomes!!" But Mahomes himself didn't sustain that play in the playoffs except against the Bills. In 2022 he laid a clunker against the Bengals in the AFCCG. Last year he was good, not elite, in the AFCCG. This year he followed up his victory over us with two games where he led his offense to a combined 3 points in two of the four halfs. It is ONLY against the McDermott coached Bills where the Chiefs have managed to overcome an elite QB performance on the other side.

 

Like imagine if Allen led our offense to 3 points or 0 points in any half of any playoff game that we played. Against any opponent it would be a loss. Against a good opponent it would be a blowout loss. Our coach can't even come close to beating a good playoff opponent unless Allen delivers an elite performance, and even then it isn't enough. And I'm really truly sick of it.

 

So here's my unpopular opinion - Allen has been the best performing QB in the playoffs from the 2021 season to this year. McDermott has been the worst performing head coach in the playoffs over that same time frame. Mahomes has been marginally less elite than Allen in the playoffs over that time but Reid + Spagnuolo have been several tiers above McDermott and that's why we can't beat them

Rodgers didn’t have to face either Brady or Mahomes that playoff run. 
 

Rodgers actually never had a playoff run where he wasn’t the CLEAR AND AWAY best QB in his conference. 
 

and he won one SB.

Thats coaching malpractice lol.

32 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I mean some of this is just crazy 😂😂😂. Payton won a Super Bowl and was THE WORST CALL OF ALL-TIME from a 2nd. Tomlin has 1. Pederson has 1. Stefanski and Bowles have both succeeded with lesser QBs. Again, you’re trying to say that McDermott > Payton, Tomlin, Harbaugh. 😂😂 Give Tomlin Josh Allen and he wins 2. 

That’s very cool that Sean Payton won a Super Bowl when Obama was elected. Unfortunately, it was a long time ago. 

 

It’s great that those coaches have won Superbowls with different teams and for some, decades ago. Nothing they have done since has helped their resumes, only harmed them and shown that they are nothing special. They should’ve retired like Cowher so some loser franchise like the Bears could pretend they could bring them back and save them.

Edited February 14 by FireChans

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Rodgers didn’t have to face either Brady or Mahomes that playoff run. 
 

Rodgers actually never had a playoff run where he wasn’t the CLEAR AND AWAY best QB in his conference. 
 

and he won one SB.

Thats coaching malpractice lol.

 

So like Kirby said it comes down to nitpicking the individual choices on the list.

 

Personally I don't care about that stuff. I just used Aaron Rodgers as an example. The rest of my post is where I get frustrated. There is no excuse for elite QB play in the playoffs having such little relative success. If you want to blame Beane over McDermott or vice versa I don't care how you want to apportion the blame. I just know that the men in charge have not been close to good enough and I'm tired of wasting the best days of Allen's career hoping they figure it out.

[Don Otreply]

Allen is our biggest asset and our biggest problem. 

 

 

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Rodgers didn’t have to face either Brady or Mahomes that playoff run. 
 

Rodgers actually never had a playoff run where he wasn’t the CLEAR AND AWAY best QB in his conference. 
 

and he won one SB.

Thats coaching malpractice lol.

That’s very cool that Sean Payton won a Super Bowl when Obama was elected. Unfortunately, it was a long time ago. 

 

It’s great that those coaches have won Superbowls with different teams and for some, decades ago. Nothing they have done since has helped their resumes, only harmed them and shown that they are nothing special. They should’ve retired like Cowher so some loser franchise like the Bears could pretend they could bring them back and save them.

None of them have playoff Josh Allen 😂😂. That’s the part of this equation that you’re missing. He’s been otherworldly. So, so, so many other coaches could have taken those performances further. Those guys have won with talent.

[FireChans]

31 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

So like Kirby said it comes down to nitpicking the individual choices on the list.

 

Personally I don't care about that stuff. I just used Aaron Rodgers as an example. The rest of my post is where I get frustrated. There is no excuse for elite QB play in the playoffs having such little relative success. If you want to blame Beane over McDermott or vice versa I don't care how you want to apportion the blame. I just know that the men in charge have not been close to good enough and I'm tired of wasting the best days of Allen's career hoping they figure it out.

He asked me to nitpick the list! 
 

You don’t get to say, “it’s just gonna be nit picking,” then ask me to nitpick, then say “Ha, like I said, it’s nit picking!”

 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He asked me to nitpick the list! 
 

You don’t get to say, “it’s just gonna be nit picking,” then ask me to nitpick, then say “Ha, like I said, it’s nit picking!”

 

The point is it's about doing less w more

 

Harbaugh was able to parlay a Joe Flacco run that wasn't half as good as Allen's 2021 performance into a Super Bowl...ours ended in the divisional

 

it's just wasteful

[billsfan714]

The nickname "Bills" is stupid.  If you look at our logo and merchandise i can never remember anything to do with the Bill part other than the word.  Its like we are really the Buffalo Buffaloes.   To feature a buffalo and be named after a guy who killed over 4 thousand of them makes no sense.  We aren't and never have been a western state.   Who ever submitted that name in the contest, I wished they lost.  Nobody outside of your great-grandfather gives one crap about Bill Cody.   Shooting a Buffalo with a rifle is about as challenging as shooting a Fiat in a parking lot.   Never understood why he was famous outside of his western shows.

Edited February 15 by billsfan714

[boyst]

20 hours ago, FireChans said:

I challenge you to name 15 better HC’s.

Spent the day thinking of this...so this continues unposted.

 

Tomlin comes to mind for what he has done. Not as much weighted for what he could do. The same is true for Belichick and Carrol.  That's 3 off the bat

 

McVay, Reid, LeFleuer, Taylor, Campbell. All obvious. That's 8 total.

 

I don't think Saleh is a bad coach. He coaches well in games. Same with Pederson. 

 

I think McDaniels has a better mind but is not a better coach the same way I think Rivera is a good coach and a bad mind.  Those two don't cut it.  

 

We have a bunch of young guns out there that we can't consider worthy yet just like those out of the HC spots. Frazier, Reich, etc.

 

:it's now 10 hours later:

I can't compare what could be to what could be with McDermott. I can't think Sean Peyton or shannahan, or siriani is any better than Mcd.

 

I can name 10 coaches better. 15 is not possible. 

[HomeTeam]

Josh Allen lacks the confidence needed to take his game to the next level. 

 

Reasons:

- Gets flustered in certain moments in games. Has that look on the sidelines. 

- Ugly girlfriends = lacks confidence xD

[section122]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I mean some of this is just crazy 😂😂😂. Payton won a Super Bowl and was THE WORST CALL OF ALL-TIME from a 2nd. Tomlin has 1. Pederson has 1. Stefanski and Bowles have both succeeded with lesser QBs. Again, you’re trying to say that McDermott > Payton, Tomlin, Harbaugh. 😂😂 Give Tomlin Josh Allen and he wins 2. 

 

I don't think it's crazy at all Tomlin hasn't won a playoff game in FOREVER.  Including some years with big ben.

 

Harbaugh has had the 1 seed twice and made the championship game once.  He has a bad playoff record with a 2 time league mvp.

 

Payton has 3 straight 7-9 seasons with a top 10 all time qb and won exactly 1 sb with that guy.  Love Josh Allen but he hasn't accomplished what Brees did.  Yet.

 

[boyst]

8 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

I don't think it's crazy at all Tomlin hasn't won a playoff game in FOREVER.  Including some years with big ben.

 

Harbaugh has had the 1 seed twice and made the championship game once.  He has a bad playoff record with a 2 time league mvp.

 

Payton has 3 straight 7-9 seasons with a top 10 all time qb and won exactly 1 sb with that guy.  Love Josh Allen but he hasn't accomplished what Brees did.  Yet.

 

Am I that wrong to think brees is not inside the top 20? @NoSaint has tried to talk me otherwise for a long time. I just don't see him surviving in the NFL 30 years ago or more when it was much more physical. He would be a step down from Marino or Theisman. 

[Matt_In_NH]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

The Bills trade out of the 1st round to get an extra pick in the 3rd round.

Now that’s unpopular!

21 hours ago, FireChans said:

I challenge you to name 15 better HC’s.

Ross Tucker had him at like 24 or something.  And he still defends it. 

[section122]

4 minutes ago, boyst said:

Am I that wrong to think brees is not inside the top 20? @NoSaint has tried to talk me otherwise for a long time. I just don't see him surviving in the NFL 30 years ago or more when it was much more physical. He would be a step down from Marino or Theisman. 

I dont think it matters if he could survive 30 years ago.  I think about how good he was against his peers.  He was right behind manning and brady and those guys 2 of the best I have ever seen.

 

I wont go pre 87 and I was too young but ive got Brady Montana Manning Favre Marino and Mahomes as better than Brees.  I have him and Rodgers about the same probably give the edge to Rodgers.  I cant imagine there are 4 other guys let alone  14 from the older eras (before passing was such a big part of the game) I would take over Brees.  Im interested to hear your list though as I might have forgotten a few guys.

 

I might personally overrate him but he was just so amazingly accurate and productive for such a long time.  Some of his deep balls were like handoffs. 

 

He definitely benefited from the dome and the rule changes I will certainly give you that but I still have him in my top 10.

[boyst]

7 minutes ago, section122 said:

I dont think it matters if he could survive 30 years ago.  I think about how good he was against his peers.  He was right behind manning and brady and those guys 2 of the best I have ever seen.

 

I wont go pre 87 and I was too young but ive got Brady Montana Manning Favre Marino and Mahomes as better than Brees.  I have him and Rodgers about the same probably give the edge to Rodgers.  I cant imagine there are 4 other guys let alone  14 from the older eras (before passing was such a big part of the game) I would take over Brees.  Im interested to hear your list though as I might have forgotten a few guys.

 

I might personally overrate him but he was just so amazingly accurate and productive for such a long time.  Some of his deep balls were like handoffs. 

 

He definitely benefited from the dome and the rule changes I will certainly give you that but I still have him in my top 10.

Listen, I am going to question this but I'm open to it haha...

 

So Brees played in the era of Roethlisberger, Eli, Matt Ryan, Farve, Rodgers, Warner, McNabb, McNair... And he was better than all of them? On merit of statistics I think he beats all of them. I am looking at the bigger picture, I guess.

 

That's a lot of super bowls on the list I gave and very good teams. In a vacuum where we just look at how a QB adds to his team - did he do more than those QB's above?

[NoSaint]

19 minutes ago, boyst said:

Listen, I am going to question this but I'm open to it haha...

 

So Brees played in the era of Roethlisberger, Eli, Matt Ryan, Farve, Rodgers, Warner, McNabb, McNair... And he was better than all of them? On merit of statistics I think he beats all of them. I am looking at the bigger picture, I guess.

 

That's a lot of super bowls on the list I gave and very good teams. In a vacuum where we just look at how a QB adds to his team - did he do more than those QB's above?

arguments can go either way and im not sure it’s easy to parse out the gap between 15 and 25 (just throwing two ballpark numbers) definitively due to things like scheme, supporting talent, playing conditions, longevity etc

 

that said, I’ll comfortably put Brees squarely in that second plateau behind the Mount Rushmore type guys. he didn’t get multiple rings but by god I don’t think I’ve seen a guy have worse playoff luck and I’m a bills fan (Minnesota miracle, rams no call, etc…)

 

I don’t think you can put Matt Ryan in the same tier, and think he was better than Mcnabb, and McNair for instance. Eli has such a challenging legacy. If you are wrestling with Brees vs favre vs Rodgers I think you are squarely in that “is there a real difference between 10 vs 15 vs 20 type of debate though (with the disclaimer that I haven’t put pen to paper on names) 

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

arguments can go either way and im not sure it’s easy to parse out the gap between 15 and 25 (just throwing two ballpark numbers) definitively due to things like scheme, supporting talent, playing conditions, longevity etc

 

that said, I’ll comfortably put Brees squarely in that second plateau behind the Mount Rushmore type guys. he didn’t get multiple rings but by god I don’t think I’ve seen a guy have worse playoff luck and I’m a bills fan (Minnesota miracle, rams no call, etc…)

 

I don’t think you can put Matt Ryan in the same tier, and think he was better than Mcnabb, and McNair for instance. Eli has such a challenging legacy. If you are wrestling with Brees vs favre vs Rodgers I think you are squarely in that “is there a real difference between 10 vs 15 vs 20 type of debate though (with the disclaimer that I haven’t put pen to paper on names) 

This is where I struggle. Tarkenton is my go to. I never saw him play beyond highlights and lore. He was a very good QB that made the HOF but I could not consider him better than Favre, Brees, Rodgers, etc because on paper how can I compare someone i never saw in a game 50 years ago to a game I barely remember in the late 80s and Steve Young. 

 

It just opens a can of beans for the whole thing.

 

Brees 100% is among the best 20 QBs in the modern 25 year era. Beyond that it's too much debate and effort to say who is where beyond the Montana, Manning, Brady debate. 

[section122]

31 minutes ago, boyst said:

Listen, I am going to question this but I'm open to it haha...

 

So Brees played in the era of Roethlisberger, Eli, Matt Ryan, Farve, Rodgers, Warner, McNabb, McNair... And he was better than all of them? On merit of statistics I think he beats all of them. I am looking at the bigger picture, I guess.

 

That's a lot of super bowls on the list I gave and very good teams. In a vacuum where we just look at how a QB adds to his team - did he do more than those QB's above?

 

I mentioned Favre and Rodgers as higher than him in the original.

 

Matt Ryan and Mcnabb are multiple tiers below him.  I don't think it is even a discussion. 

 

Warner was good but did not have close to production or longevity of Brees.  McNair again didn't have longevity or production and also didn't have the success of Brees.

 

Eli is definitely not close to Brees for me either.  He had 2 great playoff runs but if his last name isn't Manning his reputation isn't nearly as good.

 

Roethlisberger is admittedly a tougher case and imo the best on your list that I hadn't already included.  I still think Brees was slightly ahead of him like Rodgers is slightly ahead of Brees.

 

Some of Brees' stats are dumb.

 

He is the only qb with multiple 5k seasons and he has 5! Of them.

 

12 straight 4k seasons.  

 

123 300 yard passing games which is 47 more than the next closest guy on your list above.

 

2 most tds of anyone in history at least 150 more than anyone not named Favre or Rodgers (who we both mentioned).

 

Just video game numbers.

7 minutes ago, boyst said:

This is where I struggle. Tarkenton is my go to. I never saw him play beyond highlights and lore. He was a very good QB that made the HOF but I could not consider him better than Favre, Brees, Rodgers, etc because on paper how can I compare someone i never saw in a game 50 years ago to a game I barely remember in the late 80s and Steve Young. 

 

It just opens a can of beans for the whole thing.

 

Brees 100% is among the best 20 QBs in the modern 25 year era. Beyond that it's too much debate and effort to say who is where beyond the Montana, Manning, Brady debate. 

 

Fair enough.  I went back 37 years (as long as ive watched) and I have him at 7th.  Although Young is a guy I had forgotten about. Not sure where I have him.

[boyst]

6 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

I mentioned Favre and Rodgers as higher than him in the original.

 

Matt Ryan and Mcnabb are multiple tiers below him.  I don't think it is even a discussion. 

 

Warner was good but did not have close to production or longevity of Brees.  McNair again didn't have longevity or production and also didn't have the success of Brees.

 

Eli is definitely not close to Brees for me either.  He had 2 great playoff runs but if his last name isn't Manning his reputation isn't nearly as good.

 

Roethlisberger is admittedly a tougher case and imo the best on your list that I hadn't already included.  I still think Brees was slightly ahead of him like Rodgers is slightly ahead of Brees.

 

Some of Brees' stats are dumb.

 

He is the only qb with multiple 5k seasons and he has 5! Of them.

 

12 straight 4k seasons.  

 

123 300 yard passing games which is 47 more than the next closest guy on your list above.

 

2 most tds of anyone in history at least 150 more than anyone not named Favre or Rodgers (who we both mentioned).

 

Just video game numbers.

 

Fair enough.  I went back 37 years (as long as ive watched) and I have him at 7th.  Although Young is a guy I had forgotten about. Not sure where I have him.

Brees has a very pass friendly offense on a team that put almost all of their efforts into offense. Great WRs, good TEs, and useful RBs. That helped a lot.

 

Where is testeverde on your list?