Is Josh turning into a one read guy??

[Bubba Gump]

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Bubba Gump

[teef]

i have to imagine he does it every so often based on play design, but a game or two ago, the announcers were going out of their way to show how allen was a qb going through his reads, (showed clips as well).  who knows.

[Bubba Gump]

1 minute ago, teef said:

i have to imagine he does it every so often based on play design, but a game or two ago, the announcers were going out of their way to show how allen was a qb going through his reads, (showed clips as well).  who knows.

 

Something is terribly wrong with this offense. I'm at a loss. Has Dorsey really pooped his pants so bad that he is has no clue anymore???

[strive_for_five_guy]

9 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

 

That’s been a knock on Josh since coming out of college.  He’s definitely been more effective in his career when he doesn’t do this, but it’s a tendency of his that hurts the offense’s effectiveness.

[DrDawkinstein]

12 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

 

 

The very next play was the deep shot ball to Gabe that was picked. So cant say that Josh doesnt want to throw to Davis specifically.

 

I just think it's very clear that at this point of the game (down 14-7 in the 2nd qtr), Josh made up his mind that the game was almost over and the team needed a HUGE gain and some hero ball. Couldnt possibly stand moving the ball down the field, and moving the chains, in boring 6-8 yard chunks. BLECH!

 

We got Hero Ball, and then Hero Ball-turned-INT on this possession. And that was that.

 

IMO, that is 60% on Josh, and 40% on Dorsey for giving him those plays and schemes that push him to throw the deep ball.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[Buffalo_Stampede]

He’s done the one read thing all year and it’s worried me. I don’t know what it is. This was a play I talked about earlier vs NE. Great design. How is this not a TD?

 

 

 

[Process]

Allen has his flaws but this just seems like typical click bait from the cover1 guys. 

 

It was a designed deep shot. Allen probably got what he wanted and saw Harty one on one with no safety deep. So he took it. 

 

Our "speedy" WR got zero separation.

 

I don't have an issue with this play.

[GoBills808]

Pretty sure what this video right here shows you is actually the QB reading safety coming down on Davis and making correct throw to Harty

 

I mean you can see him look to Davis at the top of his drop

[Bruffalo]

It's likely that play is designed to go to Harty unless the safety rolls back into double coverage.  You can say "he didn't go through his reads" but not every play is supposed to have built-in progression.  Sometimes WRs are out there just to make space for the intended guy. 

 

That being said, none of us are there in the room so it's speculation.  Plenty of evidence to show Allen go through his reads though. 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The very next play was the deep shot ball to Gabe that was picked. So cant say that Josh doesnt want to throw to Davis specifically.

 

I just think it's very clear that at this point of the game, Josh made up his mind that the team needed a HUGE gain and some hero ball. Couldnt possibly stand moving the ball down the field, and moving the chains, in boring 6-8 yard chunks. BLECH!

 

We got Hero Ball, and then Hero Ball-turned-INT on this possession. And that was that.

 

IMO, that is 60% on Josh, and 40% on Dorsey for giving him those plays and schemes that push him to throw the deep ball.

I'm going to push back slightly in the sense that you do need to take deep shots, and he had single coverage. When he threw it, he didn't know that the Bengals DB would keep up with Harty, but he did. Maybe he stumbles or bites or whatever, but in this case he didn't. Allen DOES need to throw the occasional bombs. The lack of success this year on those plays isn't a sign that he shouldn't do it given his success on these throws last season. 

1 minute ago, Bruffalo said:

It's likely that play is designed to go to Harty unless the safety rolls back into double coverage.  You can say "he didn't go through his reads" but not every play is supposed to have built-in progression.  Sometimes WRs are out there just to make space for the intended guy. 

 

That being said, none of us are there in the room so it's speculation.  Plenty of evidence to show Allen go through his reads though. 

Agreed. He made the right read. The receiver couldn't beat his man. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

15 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

 

Finally seeing the all22 of this play. Josh just has to put that ball out in front of Harty and it’s a huge play.

[Bruffalo]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He’s done the one read thing all year and it’s worried me. I don’t know what it is. This was a play I talked about earlier vs NE. Great design. How is this not a TD?

 

 

 

You can find plays like this with virtually every quarterback in every game.

[Returntoglory]

4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The very next play was the deep shot ball to Gabe that was picked. So cant say that Josh doesnt want to throw to Davis specifically.

 

I just think it's very clear that at this point of the game (down 14-7 in the 2nd qtr), Josh made up his mind that the game was almost over and the team needed a HUGE gain and some hero ball. Couldnt possibly stand moving the ball down the field, and moving the chains, in boring 6-8 yard chunks. BLECH!

 

We got Hero Ball, and then Hero Ball-turned-INT on this possession. And that was that.

 

IMO, that is 60% on Josh, and 40% on Dorsey for giving him those plays and schemes that push him to throw the deep ball.

 

 

And once again,  Davis makes no attempt to Breakup or fight for the ball. 

[Your Brown Eye]

Josh needs to hit that. I know all QBs miss an open guy from time to time, but Josh needs to hit that. Mahomes and Burrow hit that all day long, will lull you to sleep with those plays for 2-3 quarters, then put a dagger in your heart and go deep when you have your pants down, even when they are playing from behind. I feel like basic fundamentals go out the window with Allen when they are behind, look at the Jets game. The game was very close and tight and he just kept chucking up ducks in the air trying to make a big play and the Jets defenders came down with it time and time again. When they are leading, he keeps his head in the game, plays smart, takes the open guy, goes through reads etc. That's been my observation. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

You can find plays like this with virtually every quarterback in every game.

No you cant. This is a designed pick play and it’s wide open. He never goes through his progressions on this play. Never comes off his initial read. Had his first read been open and he threw it ok, but that’s not what happened.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Beck Water]

21 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

 

 

Allen is capable of going through his reads.

 

I think how he plays at times, where he looks and his choices, are a mystery to everyone outside the Bills who are covering football because it's NOT that he hasn't shown himself capable of progressing through his reads and hitting the open guy at times.

 

Others have pointed out that Allen threw the pick to Gabe on the next play, so it's not like he "lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't look his way anymore".

 

10 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The very next play was the deep shot ball to Gabe that was picked. So cant say that Josh doesnt want to throw to Davis specifically.

 

I just think it's very clear that at this point of the game (down 14-7 in the 2nd qtr), Josh made up his mind that the game was almost over and the team needed a HUGE gain and some hero ball. Couldnt possibly stand moving the ball down the field, and moving the chains, in boring 6-8 yard chunks. BLECH!

 

We got Hero Ball, and then Hero Ball-turned-INT on this possession. And that was that.

 

IMO, that is 60% on Josh, and 40% on Dorsey for giving him those plays and schemes that push him to throw the deep ball.

 

If you're correct that Josh thought the "game was almost over" down 14-7 in the 2nd Q, then he has the mental toughness of a loofah and should retire to play golf.  I'm not saying that's what Josh was actually thinking, but I'm not kidding.  Championship-winning QB don't think like that.

 

Look, successful offensive coordinators stretch the field horizontally and vertically.  You can't blame it on Dorsey for "giving him those plays" that do what an OC is supposed to do.  Were there open players and plays to be had?  There were.  Then it's on Josh for not taking advantage of them.

 

Air Raid is damned straight that Josh has warts right now, and somebody better get the liquid nitrogen and burn a few of them off.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Beck Water

[Bruffalo]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

No you cant. This is a designed pick play and it’s wide open. He never goes through his progressions on this play. Never comes off his initial read. 

You can find plays every game where a WR is wide open and the QB just never gets to the read, doesn't see it, whatever.  
 

It's obtuse to pretend that everyone else is perfect. 

[Allen2Moulds]

4 minutes ago, Process said:

Allen has his flaws but this just seems like typical click bait from the cover1 guys. 

 

It was a designed deep shot. Allen probably got what he wanted and saw Harty one on one with no safety deep. So he took it. 

 

Our "speedy" WR got zero separation.

 

I don't have an issue with this play.

Same thoughts exactly. Also, Gabe wasn't wide open. They were in zone coverage and agabe was in the middle of 2 backers. Was their a window yes, wide open no.  If Harry runs a better route, maybe he scores. You have to get the DB to bite on something. NFL corners are too good to just run in straight lines.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Josh is not perfect and deserves most of blame when the offense struggles. Just like he gets most of the credit for it’s success.

[Allen2Moulds]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Finally seeing the all22 of this play. Josh just has to put that ball out in front of Harty and it’s a huge play.

Watch the route by Hardy, terrible job. Have to at least give the guy some type of juke our quick hitch to sell something short or intermediate. He just runs in a straight line.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

You can find plays every game where a WR is wide open and the QB just never gets to the read, doesn't see it, whatever.  
 

It's obtuse to pretend that everyone else is perfect. 

No you can’t. You’re thinking of when the qb throws it to the first open player in his progression when another WR was also open for a bigger gain.

 

Josh missed it. Simple as that. He didn’t go through his progression in the video I posted.

1 minute ago, Allen2Moulds said:

Watch the route by Hardy, terrible job. Have to at least give the guy some type of juke our quick hitch to sell something short or intermediate. He just runs in a straight line.

Possible, but the ball is thrown towards the defender instead of away from the defender so Harty could run to it. There was a lot of open space to the left where he should’ve dropped the ball.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Allen2Moulds]

17 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He’s done the one read thing all year and it’s worried me. I don’t know what it is. This was a play I talked about earlier vs NE. Great design. How is this not a TD?

 

 

 

I don't agree on the Harty one, but this one was definitely a miss. All around bad.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Allen2Moulds

[90sBills]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I just think it's very clear that at this point of the game (down 14-7 in the 2nd qtr), Josh made up his mind that the game was almost over and the team needed a HUGE gain and some hero ball. Couldnt possibly stand moving the ball down the field, and moving the chains, in boring 6-8 yard chunks. BLECH!

 

 

At this point of the game it was only Bills’ 3rd possession. Way too early for the game to be almost over if that’s what Allen was really thinking. His tendency is always to take the deep shot. On a first down like this play he’s going to do that when the opportunity presents itself. There’s no problem with this decision. The mistake was the very next play that you eluded to. Those mistakes are game killers. Allen should be a savvy veteran at this point and not get baited like a rookie qb on that play. That was disappointing. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, Allen2Moulds said:

I don't agree on the Harry one, but this one was definitely a miss. All around bad.

I don’t hate the read on the Harty throw just hate the placement of the throw.

 

But let’s be real, Josh is going to be fine, Plus he’s also beat up.

[Jerome007]

15 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

It's likely that play is designed to go to Harty unless the safety rolls back into double coverage.  You can say "he didn't go through his reads" but not every play is supposed to have built-in progression.  Sometimes WRs are out there just to make space for the intended guy. 

 

That being said, none of us are there in the room so it's speculation.  Plenty of evidence to show Allen go through his reads though. 

Indeed. Plus ALL QBs sometimes overlook a wide open guy. The questions is if JA does it more than others. I somehow don't think so, except for checkdowns. 

[Brand J]

He has these misses every game, he’s not the best at reading the field. I didn’t have a problem with the pass to Harty, but throw one that isn’t craptastic. Lead him inside and up so he can run under it. The safety on that side was too far back to be a concern. 

[zow2]

My bigger problem with Josh lately (other than his turnover's),  is his lack of touch on intermediate/deep throws.  When the Bills were high flying over the past few seasons he really improved his touch on the ball.  Lately the trajectory on sideline throws is too low,,,,making it too easy for DB's to break them up or get an INT.  Several passes have been on a rope when a little touch and arc would be more successful and give our guy a chance to make a play.  To me that's a sign of some lost confidence on his deeper passing.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

36 minutes ago, Bubba Gump said:

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

 

 

Say what you want about the read... but thats a bad throw.  

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

He has these misses every game, he’s not the best at reading the field. I didn’t have a problem with the pass to Harty, but throw one that isn’t craptastic. Lead him inside and up so he can run under it. The safety on that side was too far back to be a concern. 

 

He's open there (NFL open anyway), and you didn't even get it to a spot where he can make a play on it.  

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

He has these misses every game, he’s not the best at reading the field. I didn’t have a problem with the pass to Harty, but throw one that isn’t craptastic. Lead him inside and up so he can run under it. The safety on that side was too far back to be a concern. 

The issue was that Harty couldn't beat coverage. Allen is hoping he can, but he didn't. Teams have to take shots. Successful ones - and Allen had a ton of them last year - open everything else up. I can't fault him for this.

[Brand J]

6 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Say what you want about the read... but thats a bad throw. 
 

He's open there (NFL open anyway), and you didn't even get it to a spot where he can make a play on it.  

Agreed. People are complaining about Harry’s route or his perceived lack of speed, but if Allen leads him inside and really chucks it out there, I think you’d see a different result. 

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The issue was that Harty couldn't beat coverage. Allen is hoping he can, but he didn't. Teams have to take shots. Successful ones - and Allen had a ton of them last year - open everything else up. I can't fault him for this.

You can see right around the 30 Harty’s starting to pull away from the defender, looks back, and sees that Allen throws a ball that gives him no chance so the play is over. Allen has to throw him a moon ball he can chase.

Edited November 7, 2023 by JayBaller10

[Coach Tuesday]

Read was ok.  Situational play call was terrible.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The issue was that Harty couldn't beat coverage. Allen is hoping he can, but he didn't. Teams have to take shots. Successful ones - and Allen had a ton of them last year - open everything else up. I can't fault him for this.

 

Wrong shoulder though... if you're running a post and you throw it over my head to the other side its impossible to change directions, get there, as well as track the ball in the air.  

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Agreed. People are complaining about Harry’s route or his perceived lack of speed, but if Allen leads him inside and really chucks it out there, I think you’d see a different result. 

You can see right around the 30 Harty’s starting to pull away from the defender, looks back, and sees that Allen throws a ball that gives him no chance so the play is over. 

He had no chance because he couldn't shake the defender. Anytime a defender is running alongside you, he's handchecking you and slowing you down. To get to full speed, you have to get past him. He didn't. 

Just now, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Wrong shoulder though... if you're running a post and you throw it over my head to the other side its impossible to change directions, get there, as well as track the ball in the air.  

Again, Allen is banking on the receiver to beat his man. He couldn't. He was blanketed until the end.

[nedboy7]

I'm glad someone brought this up.  Josh is a legitimate issue for our struggles.  And it is not all on coaching.  He is making bad decisions.  Listen to Marino on this.

 

 

[GoBills808]

Pretty sure @HoofHeartedcan confirm this is literally an example of making multiple (2) reads deep/shallow based on safety coming down on crosser or not

 

I mean we have seen Allen hit this throw so many times over his career it's ridiculous to say he doesn't see it, it's been in the playbook for 5 years now 

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

He had no chance because he couldn't shake the defender. Anytime a defender is running alongside you, he's handchecking you and slowing you down. To get to full speed, you have to get past him. He didn't. 

Again, Allen is banking on the receiver to beat his man. He couldn't. He was blanketed until the end.

You’re looking at the players positioned after the result of the pass and not where they’d be with a properly thrown ball. He started getting ahead of his defender at 30, wasn’t much separation, but it was starting. Had Allen launched the ball inside and gave him something to run under, the players would be in an entirely different position after the pass.

[pocoboy]

Don't think Davis is as open as they want you to believe on that crosser. Sure, Good Josh can complete that throw, but there is a defender underneath and you have to get that right.

 

I don't think picking on a 1v1 shot play is very useful. Yeah you'd like to see Allen complete more of them, but after the runs got nowhere on the previous series, a deep ball to keep everyone honest isn't the worst thing. Ball placement wasn't great, sure. But in that Harty route you really need him to be able to fight for and win a ball as you're just going pure speed and less deception. One would also wonder if Shakir would be more effective down the field than Harty as we've seen nothing from him all year.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, JayBaller10 said:

You’re looking at the players positioned after the result of the pass and not where they’d be with a properly thrown ball. He started getting ahead of his defender at 30, wasn’t much separation, but it was starting. Had Allen launched the ball inside and gave him something to run under, the players would be in an entirely different position after the pass.

 

Could have been a miscommunication too - looks like harty heads inside (where there is space) and allen threw it vertical right around the same time.  But either way, the result is the same, the pass was uncatchable.  

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He had no chance because he couldn't shake the defender. Anytime a defender is running alongside you, he's handchecking you and slowing you down. To get to full speed, you have to get past him. He didn't. 

Again, Allen is banking on the receiver to beat his man. He couldn't. He was blanketed until the end.

Guys who can really get open know how to stem off and create separation while the ball is in the air

 

Chase did it very nicely on the ball Burrow underthrew a bit

[Long Suffering Fan]

40 minutes ago, teef said:

i have to imagine he does it every so often based on play design, but a game or two ago, the announcers were going out of their way to show how allen was a qb going through his reads, (showed clips as well).  who knows.

 

29 minutes ago, Process said:

Allen has his flaws but this just seems like typical click bait from the cover1 guys. 

 

It was a designed deep shot. Allen probably got what he wanted and saw Harty one on one with no safety deep. So he took it. 

 

Our "speedy" WR got zero separation.

 

I don't have an issue with this play.

 

First, I love Josh.  I love watching him play.  I love the adventure.  So, I'm biased.

 

Teef and Process nailed it.

 

He is not perfect, but sometimes the design is to go a certain direction based on a pre-snap read.  When Tom Brady was leading the league with a ridiculously short snap to pass time, he was making a lot of reads and decisions pre-snap.  This is so powerful and so recognized by the entire league, that defenses often work really hard to disguise their coverages.  

 

I often see Josh go through a progression after snap, but not every play is supposed to be that.  This one, with the way it turned out, and with the play action, and the turning your back to the defense - we can't know for sure, but this was likely a designed shot play.  Take it if the safety comes down and you have one on one.