The play that concerned me the most

[oldmanfan]

The play that showed me we were in trouble last night was the one where Josh tried to jump over two guys when he was 5 yards from getting a first down.  What concerns me is that Josh is not either listening to what the coaches are telling him or is sometimes unable to control his play with respect to what the coaches are telling him.  The entire off season McD, Dorsey (and Beane) have talked about how they want to get Josh to where he is not running the ball as much, and where is not taking unnecessary risks to his body while out there.  Trying to hurdle not one, but two guys, and not at the yardage marker, but 5 yards before it, shows just a stunning inability to process that kind of info.

 

I love Josh.  I think as fans we all love Josh and what he brings to the table with his talent.  But as much as folks have wanted to harp about the O line (which held up OK against a very good D line), Bernard (didn't cost us the game by any means), Dorsey's play calls (is it the calls, or is Josh not going where he needs to go), this team will only win when its QB accepts that he needs to play under control.  After last night I am beginning to question whether Josh can do that.  and if he is simply not listening to the coaches, then the answer to me isn't changing coaches.  It's sitting his butt down for a bit or having the other leaders on the team get in his face and demand better.

[Simon]

The mistake wasn't trying to hurdle people, it was not getting the ball out in the first place.

Once he crossed the LOS, he's going to do anything he possibly can to try and convert a key 3rd down.

Just as he should.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I saw McD and Diggs both tell him to play smart last night. He doesn’t need to be hero ball 24/7. 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, Simon said:

The mistake wasn't trying to hurdle people, it was not getting the ball out in the first place.

Once he crossed the LOS, he's going to do anything he possibly can to try and convert a key 3rd down.

Just as he should.

You are not hurling two guys 5 yards from the marker and getting the first.  Just not happening.

[Simon]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

You are not hurling two guys 5 yards from the marker and getting the first.  Just not happening.

 

He's also not going to just lay down on 3rd down either.

Nor should he.

 

The mistake occurred well before the last ditch hurdle, imo.

[pocoboy]

3 minutes ago, Simon said:

The mistake wasn't trying to hurdle people, it was not getting the ball out in the first place.

Once he crossed the LOS, he's going to do anything he possibly can to try and convert a key 3rd down.

Just as he should.

 

Agreed. It's more of an issue on the run where he got the first down and passed up ducking out of bound in order to plow into a few guys. Regardless of injury, it also increases the chances of someone popping the ball out.

 

The 'not getting the ball out in the first place' is the true problem. I don't think he and/or Dorsey are putting in the necessary effort for him to make the decisions in the time allowed. And last night he did have more time than he assumed.

[ngbills]

Josh looked like a guy that did not care last night. I dont mean did not want to win or try. But more of the kid that has been told dont put your feet on the sofa and does it anyway. SOmething is off. He did not look prepared either. I dont know if this is a Josh thing or a growing lack of respect of the coaches. 

[17islongenough]

There was another play earlier in the game.   When it was like 2nd or 3rd down.  He ran and got the 1st down. He should have ran out of bounds. But no he decided to ran at 3 Jets players.  Mcdermott even said you have to play smart and then he did that dumb hurdle thing a little later.  

[Lost]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

He's also not going to just lay down on 3rd down either.

Nor should he.

 

The mistake occurred well before the last ditch hurdle, imo.

 

When you're 6 yard from first down marker and about to get blasted by not 1 but 2 defenders, you absolutely run it out of bounds..

[teef]

he was off in a number of ways.  even if he just fields the snap at the end of the game correctly we could have a different outcome.  he was awful last night.

Edited September 12, 2023 by teef

[Simon]

Just now, Lost said:

 

When you're 6 yard from first down marker and about to get blasted by not 1 but 2 defenders, you absolutely run it out of bounds..

 

Not on 3rd down.

[billsfanmd07]

Agree. Another he was going out of bounds then tuned back in just to get hit. The play that concerned me was every run by Cook up the middle. Even my wife who does not watch much football said he gets tackled easily. But announcers kept saying how great he looked. Cook is not every down back

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, pocoboy said:

 

Agreed. It's more of an issue on the run where he got the first down and passed up ducking out of bound in order to plow into a few guys. Regardless of injury, it also increases the chances of someone popping the ball out.

 

The 'not getting the ball out in the first place' is the true problem. I don't think he and/or Dorsey are putting in the necessary effort for him to make the decisions in the time allowed. And last night he did have more time than he assumed.

 

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

He's also not going to just lay down on 3rd down either.

Nor should he.

 

The mistake occurred well before the last ditch hurdle, imo.

Yes, he should have gotten the ball out sooner.  But when he didn't the answer is not to try and hurdle two guys 5 yards short of the marker.  That is the point; he has to be smarter than that.  This was a low scoring game, a punt is not a bad play.  Pin them back and come out again instead of putting yourself at risk of getting hurt.  

[Lost]

Just now, Simon said:

 

Not on 3rd down.

 

I'll take a punt vs. backup led offense over my QB being out for season because of something stupid.  

[ALLinALLEN]

Completely agree with this

[starrymessenger]

58 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You are not hurling two guys 5 yards from the marker and getting the first.  Just not happening.

Perhaps the best example of what characterized his game last night. He’s an intelligent guy but he seemed mentally challenged to the point of absurdity.

[Bangarang]

Josh will bail early from a pocket thinking he might get hit only to try to lower his shoulder against a LB for an extra meaningless yard or two. It’s bizarre.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

The play that showed me we were in trouble last night was the one where Josh tried to jump over two guys when he was 5 yards from getting a first down.  What concerns me is that Josh is not either listening to what the coaches are telling him or is sometimes unable to control his play with respect to what the coaches are telling him.  The entire off season McD, Dorsey (and Beane) have talked about how they want to get Josh to where he is not running the ball as much, and where is not taking unnecessary risks to his body while out there.  Trying to hurdle not one, but two guys, and not at the yardage marker, but 5 yards before it, shows just a stunning inability to process that kind of info.

 

I love Josh.  I think as fans we all love Josh and what he brings to the table with his talent.  But as much as folks have wanted to harp about the O line (which held up OK against a very good D line), Bernard (didn't cost us the game by any means), Dorsey's play calls (is it the calls, or is Josh not going where he needs to go), this team will only win when its QB accepts that he needs to play under control.  After last night I am beginning to question whether Josh can do that.  and if he is simply not listening to the coaches, then the answer to me isn't changing coaches.  It's sitting his butt down for a bit or having the other leaders on the team get in his face and demand better.

I think the issue on this play as much as anything is it meant everyone had to jump on him for being an idiot. 
 

suddenly he’s going to be tentative with the body, overthinking taking hits, and coaches avoiding calling designed runs because he can’t be trusted to get down. 
 

the other catastrophic flub was not gliding out of bounds for 4 yards and a first down early and instead taking on defenders to get 6 yards… a meaningless win. 
 

hes got to figure that out so we can use all his talents to win. If he can play safer, we can open up the playbook and use him more creatively.

 

[John from Riverside]

That one where he went to one side of the field and threw it all the way to the other side of the field. Kind of freaked me out too. I think it was to Damien Harris.

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Josh will bail early from a pocket thinking he might get hit only to try to lower his shoulder against a LB for an extra meaningless yard or two. It’s bizarre.

it’s about the lost yards, not fear of contact.

[Best Williams Available]

1 hour ago, 17islongenough said:

There was another play earlier in the game.   When it was like 2nd or 3rd down.  He ran and got the 1st down. He should have ran out of bounds. But no he decided to ran at 3 Jets players.  Mcdermott even said you have to play smart and then he did that dumb hurdle thing a little later.  

This is the play in hindsight that showed his mind wasn’t in it and that he was going to refuse to play smart. I yelled “go out of bounds you f$@king idiot!” And everyone at the bar looked at me. Completely unnecessary play to force contact. Led to other unnecessary plays.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

The play that showed me we were in trouble last night was the one where Josh tried to jump over two guys when he was 5 yards from getting a first down.  What concerns me is that Josh is not either listening to what the coaches are telling him or is sometimes unable to control his play with respect to what the coaches are telling him.  The entire off season McD, Dorsey (and Beane) have talked about how they want to get Josh to where he is not running the ball as much, and where is not taking unnecessary risks to his body while out there.  Trying to hurdle not one, but two guys, and not at the yardage marker, but 5 yards before it, shows just a stunning inability to process that kind of info.

 

I love Josh.  I think as fans we all love Josh and what he brings to the table with his talent.  But as much as folks have wanted to harp about the O line (which held up OK against a very good D line), Bernard (didn't cost us the game by any means), Dorsey's play calls (is it the calls, or is Josh not going where he needs to go), this team will only win when its QB accepts that he needs to play under control.  After last night I am beginning to question whether Josh can do that.  and if he is simply not listening to the coaches, then the answer to me isn't changing coaches.  It's sitting his butt down for a bit or having the other leaders on the team get in his face and demand better.

 

My first thought when I saw that play and then reassured again on replay was that Josh's hurdle there felt more like his instinct to get the ball out of the way of contact and wrap it up to protect it more than trying to get more yards.  It just looked like he realized he was in a bad predicament without the ball properly secured with no way to avoid the contact and he went up to try and avoid a potential fumble on contact to get the ball above the defenders and secured more in his arms.  

 

If you watch the replay, this to me seems the most plausible reason.  Now...that does highlight another issue which is how he can recklessly hold the ball when running that has led to way too many fumbles given how much contact he takes and initiates on runs.  But, I think this needless hurdle was his instinctive way to secure the football by getting it above the contact and secured with two arms when he realized he was about to get hit by 3 guys while he had the ball just palmed in his hand.

 

https://x.com/JakeLBeckman/status/1701409336419926340?s=20

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

A Streetcar Named Desire.

[cgg716]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

Josh looked like a guy that did not care last night. I dont mean did not want to win or try. But more of the kid that has been told dont put your feet on the sofa and does it anyway. SOmething is off. He did not look prepared either. I dont know if this is a Josh thing or a growing lack of respect of the coaches. 

His frustration with the coaches is evident and vice versa. I lean more towards blaming the coaches who seem insistent on making Allen something he isn't. Allen in return, goes over the top the other way. Terrible combo

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

It’ll never be coached out of him. It will make him great and so frustrating at times as well.

 

at this point, we don’t have to say he’s not listening to the coaches. He’s not listening to himself. He himself has said repeatedly he knows that he has to change but he doesn’t. You can’t change a zebra’s stripes.

 

personally, I’d rather Josh not change his ways. I’m concerned about coaching that type of stuff out of him. Take last nights touchdown, for example. Most quarterbacks would’ve probably thrown that ball away. 
 

we will just have to continue to take the many lumps along the way. 
 

I mean, if it ever could be coached out of him, but he could still keep that edge about him that makes him great at the same time, he’d basically be the greatest quarterback ever. Not a realistic expectation honestly. 

[Shaw66]

I agree, for a slightly different reason. I think the play exemplified the real problem with Josh, which is that he is not focused mentally.  He makes a lot of mistakes, because he isn't thinking the way a qb needs to think.  

 

The fumbled snap and then the fumble was another.  His thoughts have to be on the right thing, always.  

 

Watch Tua, watch Burrow.  When they scramble, they aren't wildly looking around trying to find someone.  They KNOW where the receivers are, they make a decision, and they go there.  Focused thinking.  

 

Josh's brain knows not to make that leap, but his thinking isn't sharp enough, focused enough, to control his decision making.

 

Its a big problem, as we saw last night. B

[Bangarang]

11 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

it’s about the lost yards, not fear of contact.

There’s something to be said for living to play another down. I’d rather we lost 5 yards on a sack then him escaping the pocket just to throw into double/triple coverage.

[Dablitzkrieg]

So much crying today 🤣

[biggerdaddynj]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree, for a slightly different reason. I think the play exemplified the real problem with Josh, which is that he is not focused mentally.  He makes a lot of mistakes, because he isn't thinking the way a qb needs to think.  

 

The fumbled snap and then the fumble was another.  His thoughts have to be on the right thing, always.  

 

Watch Tua, watch Burrow.  When they scramble, they aren't wildly looking around trying to find someone.  They KNOW where the receivers are, they make a decision, and they go there.  Focused thinking.  

 

Josh's brain knows not to make that leap, but his thinking isn't sharp enough, focused enough, to control his decision making.

 

Its a big problem, as we saw last night. B

They’re scanning the field and going through their progressions.  That’s an innate talent.  As much as I love Josh, he just doesn’t seem to have that skillset.  Sort of like how he’s not close to elite at “touch passes”—just has that fantastic cannon but that’s not the way to throw the majority of the routes/passes—great to squeeze a ball into tight spots but not great at all to lead a receiver open who has a step or two on the DB by giving them time to run open and ***** the pass.

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

There’s something to be said for living to play another down. I’d rather we lost 5 yards on a sack then him escaping the pocket just to throw into double/triple coverage.

To be fair, you don’t have to throw into triple coverage after escaping 

 

those are unrelated events, in theory 

[Logic]

I'm just glad Bills fans are finally starting to actually hold Josh accountable for the offensive struggles sometimes.

Too often last year, I saw every single thing that went wrong blamed on Ken Dorsey. Don't get me wrong, I had problems with the playcalling and play designs at times, too. I'm certainly no Dorsey apologist.

But time and again, I'd go back and look at the All-22 and see open guys that Josh just wasn't finding or getting the ball to. If you go back and watch the first two interceptions last night, for instance, you will see an open receiver underneath for a short gain on both. 

When guys are open and Josh is refusing to throw it to them, instead opting to force the ball downfield into tight coverage again and again with complete disregard for the situational context of the moment, it's a Josh problem, not a Dorsey problem.

My biggest problem with Josh Allen right now is his lack of situational awareness. Knowing WHEN he needs to take the risks and push the ball downfield and when he needs to play it safe, take a sack or a checkdown, and live to fight another down. Had he simply shown situational awareness last night and played within himself, the Bills would have won the game.

[4th&long]

I think he got big money to throw the game!

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

Not on 3rd down.

I disagree with you on this point. There were three possible options and outcomes (once he started running)

1. See two defenders will ahead of the marker and decide to protect your body

2. (What he did) Try to hurdle two defenders and be stopped short

3. Try to hurdle and get hurt

 

None of the options gets you a first down. Take #1 and live to fight in another possession 

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I disagree with you on this point. There were three possible options and outcomes (once he started running)

1. See two defenders will ahead of the marker and decide to protect your body

2. (What he did) Try to hurdle two defenders and be stopped short

3. Try to hurdle and get hurt

 

None of the options gets you a first down. Take #1 and live to fight in another possession 

 

That's fair.

I just have a hard time giving a guy too much hell for trying anything he possibly can to convert a third down.

[NoSaint]

32 minutes ago, Best Williams Available said:

This is the play in hindsight that showed his mind wasn’t in it and that he was going to refuse to play smart. I yelled “go out of bounds you f$@king idiot!” And everyone at the bar looked at me. Completely unnecessary play to force contact. Led to other unnecessary plays.

it totally messes up how you have to manage his day too 

 

I was so mad at that play. And then to follow it up with the jump? 
 

it’ll sound crazy but those two plus the fumble upset me more than some of the throws. 

5 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

That's fair.

I just have a hard time giving a guy too much hell for trying anything he possibly can to convert a third down.

injury and turnover were FAR more likely than fly 7 yards or land on feet and keep running 

 

and it also signals to Dorsey he has to scrap every designed run he has in his pocket.

Edited September 12, 2023 by NoSaint

[Fan in Chicago]

2 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

That's fair.

I just have a hard time giving a guy too much hell for trying anything he possibly can to convert a third down.

I know I am particularly harsh on him today but that was not just because of yesterday's game. It has been a trend since the GB game last year - bad decisions, showing no fire on the sidelines, stubbornness with playing style and lack of trust in your surrounding cast. 

 

He has lost the essence of why he endeared himself to us fans since he came into the league - the drive to improve and fix his own problems. 

 

I worry he is trending towards athletes in other sports such as tennis - Capriati, sabatini who gained much early success only to never build on it. 

[JohnnyBuffalo]

Definitely questioning his mental durability/capabilities after many of the bewildering decisions he has made and did make last night!!!

 

Mind numbingly frustrating 

[Shaw66]

43 minutes ago, biggerdaddynj said:

They’re scanning the field and going through their progressions.  That’s an innate talent.  As much as I love Josh, he just doesn’t seem to have that skillset.  Sort of like how he’s not close to elite at “touch passes”—just has that fantastic cannon but that’s not the way to throw the majority of the routes/passes—great to squeeze a ball into tight spots but not great at all to lead a receiver open who has a step or two on the DB by giving them time to run open and ***** the pass.

I don't know if it's an innate talent, but it certainly comes more naturally to some than to others.   He has to learn it, just like he has to learn (and has to a great learned the touch passes).   On the first interception (I think), he had Sherfield (I think, crossing from right to left (the same way Josh had scramble), and Sherfield was deeper than the defender.  Since the receiver Josh tried to hit was crossing the other way, downfield from Sherfield was all open space.  Josh could have thrown Sherfield open up field by just getting a little air under it, the kind of touch pass you're talking about.  It would have been a much better choice than the play he made.  

[Dan]

My contention is that Dorsey and Josh’s tendencies have been figured out and neither one is willing to adapt.  
 

I think they have tremendous success against  half the league or more, which serves to convince them that they don’t need to change anything.  But the better teams/coaches/players take advantage of these known flaws. 
 

Going back to last season, I’ve seen too many DBs jump a route as though they knew exactly where Gabe or whoever was gonna be.  Or the middle of the field opens up… Josh takes off to run only to have someone immediately close the gap and hit him for a loss or very small gain.   His roll to the right and hit a WR downfield for a big game… defenses wait for that now.  Screens and half the run plays are telegraphed and the defense moves presnap to close it down.   
 

Josh needs to play within himself, but since about midway through last season… the entire offense has struggled.  Yet, we see the same routes, same tendencies, same plays being run.  They should have self scouted all summer.   I think they just looked at the overall scoring stats and said… good enough.   Thats all I got to explain it. 

[Casual fan]

20 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree, for a slightly different reason. I think the play exemplified the real problem with Josh, which is that he is not focused mentally.  He makes a lot of mistakes, because he isn't thinking the way a qb needs to think.  

 

The fumbled snap and then the fumble was another.  His thoughts have to be on the right thing, always.  

 

Watch Tua, watch Burrow.  When they scramble, they aren't wildly looking around trying to find someone.  They KNOW where the receivers are, they make a decision, and they go there.  Focused thinking.  

 

Josh's brain knows not to make that leap, but his thinking isn't sharp enough, focused enough, to control his decision making.

 

Its a big problem, as we saw last night. B

I think you're right. You usually are.

 

I don't think he's not but preparing well because he's doting on his girlfriend.

 

But I am wondering if the crowd he is hanging with are Hollywood glamour types. I don't know. But maybe subconsciously he wanted to make a splash. To get ohhs and ahhs and admiring looks from luminaries. To go from farm-boy to glamour-boy,  so he pushed too hard on Monday Night Football.

 

Sometimes a QB has to be boring. Dink & dunk passes, throw the ball away, throw the ball way,  run out of bounds, slide, punt, punt, punt.

You look boring and ineffective, but sometimes you have to.

 

If I was his coach I'd ask him if he'd rather look boring, ineffective & conservative or if he'd rather look like he did on Monday night.