Bills restructure Taron Johnson and Ryan Bates- create 4.5M cap space

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

@NewEra is the new @YoloinOhio

Awe hellllll naw!!! 🤣 

[Tuco]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think Beane has to find an additional $11.7-$14.2M cap by 4 pm today for

-Von Miller on PUP ($7.94M)

-4 guys on IR ($2.46)

-whatever agreement the Bills made with Nyheim Hines on NFI (that's the wiggle room - $0.8M to $3.5M)

 

I'm not exactly sure where we're going to find that, but it's clear that some more moves have to be coming.

 

Including moves that, as you say, we would probably be wiser not to make.  But that's where we are.

 

 

Bills have 4 guys on IR.  Shorter, Spector on "eligible to return".  Doyle, Davidson on season-ending.

Those guys already counted. Contrary to popular belief it's not just the top 51 contracts during the offseason. It's the top 51 plus the PUP, IR and NFI guys.

[JoeF]

[Simon Says]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yup, GM's like to have "x" amount of space just in case and likely had those in his back pocket earmarked for that purpose while doing other signings.

These 2 restructures will barely keep them under the salary cap.

Don't expect Beane to go out and sign a significant free agent.

If he really wants a particular player, he might have a couple more contracts to rework but it's financially risky. 

[Tuco]

57 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

IR only counts half usually right?

It all counts. The difference is some of the players have split contracts that call for paying them less (usually about half) if they wind up on IR. This is usually the guys with smaller contracts. It depends on if it's in their contract or not. Looking at our IR list you can see Tommy Doyle is still getting his $1+ mil while the other guys are all down around a half-million.

 

 

[Simon Says]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

IR only counts half usually right?

Half? I've never heard that.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

For someone who is better versed than me on this…is this kind of like when Jerome Powell burns through the money printers and then we pay for it later? 

[warrior9]

2 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

Every player that can be restructured, should be restructured.  I never understood what GMs don't understand about the roll over of cap.  The restructure would make the future cap hit higher, including the dead cap.  If you rolled over the cap that was created in the restructure, then it had no impact on the overall cap space.  However, it gives you flexibility throughout the year if you need to use it in an emergency.

Man, you really have no clue on the true nuances of football, huh? 

 

Do you "actually read contracts, not just look at stats?" This is a GOD AWFUL take and couldnt be more from the truth. Do you think you know more about the roll over of that cap over acting NFL GMs? 

[Mr. WEO]

Now they can afford to sign a 3rd string QB!!

[boyst]

14 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Now they can afford to sign a 3rd string QB!!

Petertime!

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Man, you really have no clue on the true nuances of football, huh? 

 

Do you "actually read contracts, not just look at stats?" This is a GOD AWFUL take and couldnt be more from the truth. Do you think you know more about the roll over of that cap over acting NFL GMs? 

 

You'll never convince certain fans that there is a risk with restructures.  They don't see it.

 

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, Tuco said:

Those guys already counted. Contrary to popular belief it's not just the top 51 contracts during the offseason. It's the top 51 plus the PUP, IR and NFI guys.

53 not 51.....51 is used during the offseason.

[RobbRiddick]

Finally we can sign Mario Williams 

[Matt_In_NH]

13 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

You'll never convince certain fans that there is a risk with restructures.  They don't see it.

 

 Same ones that think "there is no cap".   Agree about this risk thing, fans dont understand or care to understand they just want all the players that come across twitter.   

[Mr. WEO]

15 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

Finally we can sign Mario Williams 

 

he's still chasing that ring...

[Conlan58]

3 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Why would we do that?

Because I picked him up in fantasy and think he would do well as RB2! 

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, Herb Nightly said:

Half? I've never heard that.

 

most low round and bottom roster contracts have clauses that when a player is on IR he only gets about half his salary.  It's pretty much standard amounts in the CBA and unless specifically agreed to otherwise, they don't get higher than that. Not sure how that works on the cap tho...do those players still get their full cap cost counted?

3 hours ago, Tuco said:

It all counts. The difference is some of the players have split contracts that call for paying them less (usually about half) if they wind up on IR. This is usually the guys with smaller contracts. It depends on if it's in their contract or not. Looking at our IR list you can see Tommy Doyle is still getting his $1+ mil while the other guys are all down around a half-million.

 

 

 

does it still count fully on the cap for split contracts?

Edited September 5, 2023 by Big Turk

[Back2Buff]

3 hours ago, warrior9 said:

Man, you really have no clue on the true nuances of football, huh? 

 

Do you "actually read contracts, not just look at stats?" This is a GOD AWFUL take and couldnt be more from the truth. Do you think you know more about the roll over of that cap over acting NFL GMs? 

 

I'm not sure what you aren't understanding.  The Bills did it last year in Dec with Tre White.

 

They created 2.3 million in cap space, and then rolled over 2.2 in cap space to this year.

 

So let me help you with the math:

 

2022: Additional space 2.3

2023: Tre White counts ~-2 million more on cap.

2023: Cap space roll over: +2.2 million.

 

Net impact in 2023: close to zero.

 

Some people dont understand basic math and concepts.  There is a reason why so many people become millionaires of understand finance. 

[ColoradoBills]

7 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

most low round and bottom roster contracts have clauses that when a player is on IR he only gets about half his salary.  It's pretty much standard and unless specifically agreed to otherwise, they don't get higher than that. Not sure how that works on the cap tho...do those players still get their full cap cost counted?

 

does it still count fully on the cap for split contracts?

 

No.  It's a cap hit of whatever that "discount" comes to.  To clarify for some who want to know.

 

All vested veterans (4 years or more) get all their money on IR/PUP.  All is counted against the cap.

For the playing under their rookie contracts, it's a bit of a sliding scale as to what round and how many years they have as to

their pay and cap hit and if they made the 53 roster.  Doyle had his salary reduced last year on IR (like Shorter) but not this year.

For the UDFA and Reserve/Future contract guys, it's more a fixed percentage.  The cap hit is reduced the same amount.

 

To complicate things more, even veterans like Barkley do not get all the money due him because of the "injury settlement".

The way that worked, with his arm injury being so short, he just got his guaranteed money, and that money was moved from IR bucket

to the dead money bucket.  Injury settlements come from the team and the only thing that players can have a say about it is

if they "dispute" number of weeks.  Barkley is already an UFA and can sign with any team.  There is a period of time he would have to wait

to re-sign with the Bills.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

So far in this thread I've seen someone push for Kareem Hunt and another for Mike Evans. We only have enough money for one and I vote for Mike Hunt.

[ColoradoBills]

2 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

 

I'm not sure what you aren't understanding.  The Bills did it last year in Dec with Tre White.

 

They created 2.3 million in cap space, and then rolled over 2.2 in cap space to this year.

 

So let me help you with the math:

 

2022: Additional space 2.3

2023: Tre White counts ~-2 million more on cap.

2023: Cap space roll over: +2.2 million.

 

Net impact in 2023: close to zero.

 

Some people dont understand basic math and concepts.  There is a reason why so many people become millionaires of understand finance. 

 

It's the fact that the team spent the money last season and now owes more this season.  The other "risk" is what was non-guaranteed money

for this season is now guaranteed and if that player is cut for whatever reason, that money become dead money counted against the cap.

Which would not of happened is the contract was not restructured!

 

You can only gamble that so many times before it catches up with you.

[Tuco]

3 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

53 not 51.....51 is used during the offseason.

I'm aware of that. My point was in response to the poster who seemed to think during the offseason it's only the top 51 contracts that count, and that Beane was going to have to find a lot of cap space to fit the IR guys and PUP guys etc. when it goes to 53 plus the practice squad. I was explaining that those guys count in the offseason even when everybody thinks it's just 51, so there's not a big jump when it goes to 53 plus PS. The only jump is the PS because those other guys were always counting even when it was at 51.

[boyst]

46 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

So far in this thread I've seen someone push for Kareem Hunt and another for Mike Evans. We only have enough money for one and I vote for Mike Hunt.

Word on the street is they're not asking for much. Big target, fast, team player. I think we can take a chance. 

[Warriorspikes51]

Offer a 2 and a 5 for Evans.  That way we won't need to fret over Beane's 2nd rounder busting 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

6 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

Every player that can be restructured, should be restructured.  I never understood what GMs don't understand about the roll over of cap.  The restructure would make the future cap hit higher, including the dead cap.  If you rolled over the cap that was created in the restructure, then it had no impact on the overall cap space.  However, it gives you flexibility throughout the year if you need to use it in an emergency.

 

 

Maybe you need to educate them on this topic. Then they'll be a smart as you!

[JohnBonhamRocks]

11 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Offer a 2 and a 5 for Evans.  That way we won't need to fret over Beane's 2nd rounder busting 

But he kills it in the 5th - ship out a 6th or 7th pick that will get poached off the PS anyways!

[TBBills Fan]

Welcome back lil dirty

 

Haha jk

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

IR only counts half usually right?

 

Not quite.  IR counts 100%, but a lot of players "split contracts", meaning they get paid less for the weeks they are on IR.

 

So for example, here's the Bills IR list:

 

Tommy Doyle does NOT have a split contract.  He's getting paid his full NFL minimum while he's on IR.

But, you can see that Shorter, Spector, and Davidson are all getting less than the league minimum of at least $750k for a rookie or $870k for a year of experience.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

most low round and bottom roster contracts have clauses that when a player is on IR he only gets about half his salary.  It's pretty much standard amounts in the CBA and unless specifically agreed to otherwise, they don't get higher than that. Not sure how that works on the cap tho...do those players still get their full cap cost counted?

 

does it still count fully on the cap for split contracts?

 

No, their actual split salary is what counts against the cap, plus of course signing bonus and any roster bonus not linked to playing in games but just still being on the roster at a certain date.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

 

I'm not sure what you aren't understanding.  The Bills did it last year in Dec with Tre White.

 

They created 2.3 million in cap space, and then rolled over 2.2 in cap space to this year.

 

So let me help you with the math:

 

2022: Additional space 2.3

2023: Tre White counts ~-2 million more on cap.

2023: Cap space roll over: +2.2 million.

 

Net impact in 2023: close to zero.

 

Some people dont understand basic math and concepts.  There is a reason why so many people become millionaires of understand finance. 

 

Who is gonna tell him?

 

 

[Back2Buff]

17 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Who is gonna tell him?

 

 

 

Buddy, I don't need to be told anything.  

[Beck Water]

24 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

Buddy, I don't need to be told anything.  

 

You do actually need to be told something.  You need to have it explained  it's not just the impact on the cap for this and the next year that is of concern in restructures, it's the impact on the cap over the duration of the restructure - which is usually several years, and sometimes is extended past the duration of the actual contract using "void years".

 

Take your example of Tre White's 2022 restructure of $2.9M salary into bonus.  That didn't just impact 2023; the Bills divided that into 4 equal parts (amortized it) and spread it over the remaining 4 years of his contract.  So $0.74M got added to his existing restructure bonus of $1.892 for the year 2022; the remainder got added to his existing restructure bonuses for 2023, 2024, and 2025.  (That's why he converted $2.9M salary, but it only cleared $2.2M of cap space in 2022).

 

The long term impact is that if the Bills were to decide that they wanted to move on from Tre in 2024 or 2025, they have an extra $1.78M added to the dead cap of $10.37 they already have on the books from: signing bonus from his 2020 extension amortized into 2024 ($2.1M); option bonus exercised in 2021 ($1.5M/ yr), AND a previous 2021 restructure converting $9.46M of salary into restructure bonus divided over the 5 years of his contract ($1.892M/yr).  

 

That's a small amount from $2.9M in 2022, but the impact of restructuring (say) $7.6M of salary to bonus for Tre (which the Bills could do) would be to make it much harder to move on from him and/or (if they add void years) leaving money on the books for him after his contract.

 

For example  the Bills will have $3.4M of dead cap on the books for Micah Hyde in 2024 - while Hyde is not even under contract with the Bills.  In 2025, we will have $2.84M dead cap on the books for Dawkins - again, while he's no longer under contract with the Bills.  We could jack that up to $8M dead money with a restructure of Dion!

 

I say all this knowing that while in fact you NEED to be told something,  I likely can't, in fact, teach you anything

 

But your bit about folks who don't understand basic math and concepts and millionaires is unintentional humor at its very finest.  You're the capology equivalent of the guy who takes out a $10k credit card with no interest for 24 months in 2022 and charges it to the limit, failing to consider that in 2024, he's going to have a $10k loan to pay back (with interest)

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Beck Water

[Alphadawg7]

8 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

Every player that can be restructured, should be restructured.  I never understood what GMs don't understand about the roll over of cap.  The restructure would make the future cap hit higher, including the dead cap.  If you rolled over the cap that was created in the restructure, then it had no impact on the overall cap space.  However, it gives you flexibility throughout the year if you need to use it in an emergency.

 

Not to be rude, but I think its safe to say that the GM's understand the cap and the roll over better than anyone here.  

[Chaos]

8 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Do you understand what restructuring actually does?

 

Because, not wanting to sound condescending, from the above written, I'm not entirely sure that you do

Look at Tre White as an example:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/tredavious-white-21768/

 

Beane's strategy of only restructuring when he actually needs the cap space is correct.  Restructuring every player that can be restructured, is how you wind up with either a bunch of players who may no longer be playing up to their contract (not to say that will be Tre White, but it could be) OR a year with massive amounts of dead cap hit.

 

Worse, you can wind up with massive cap hits - for players who are no longer even under contract!  Here's another example to look at, Dion Dawkins.  What would restructing Dion do to 2025?
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/dion-dawkins-21805/

 

Here's another example of that, from another player who was restructured:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/micah-hyde-12440/

This is Micah Hyde's last year under contract.  Next year, we will have a cap charge of $3.4M for Hyde - while he is not under  contract to us!

There's a reason Beane and other GMs have referred to it as "kicking the can down the road"

Compared to the Chiefs and Bengals the bills have a much worse “can kicked down the road situation “

[Manther]

10 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

With quite a few options on who they could have restructured I believe they got it right. I wouldn't want them kicking the can down the road on either Dawkins or White this year.

Agreed, great call and agree with Beane!

 

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The 53 has to be under the cap as of last week. This week the PS counts.

We are tight, but, getting it done.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

Compared to the Chiefs and Bengals the bills have a much worse “can kicked down the road situation “

 

That is true.  Chiefs have about $13M next year (so far) in restructures and the Bills have about $18M.

 

Now the Bengals currently have less than $1M in restructures BUT with Burrows going form $11M to $29M and their UFAs

of Boyd, Higgins, Reader, Jonah Willaims and Irv Smith amongst others, their time is rapidly approaching.

There are plenty of NFL "insiders" wondering how the Bengals owner and GM will be handling this.  They are not known for spending money.

I for one am curious too.

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

That is true.  Chiefs have about $13M next year (so far) in restructures and the Bills have about $18M.

 

Now the Bengals currently have less than $1M in restructures BUT with Burrows going form $11M to $29M and their UFAs

of Boyd, Higgins, Reader, Jonah Willaims and Irv Smith amongst others, their time is rapidly approaching.

There are plenty of NFL "insiders" wondering how the Bengals owner and GM will be handling this.  They are not known for spending money.

I for one am curious too.

The Bengals are a “cash to the cap” team. They have to pay Burrow very soon. They’ll do that. Joe Burrow will retire a Bengal. He’s a local kid who grew up a Bengals fan. This town would riot if they didn’t pay him. But there is no way that they can afford to keep all those weapons. I imagine that they’ll keep Chase to keep Burrow happy and move in from Boyd and Higgins. All that being said, if the Bengals win a Superbowl this year all bets are off. 

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

The Bengals are a “cash to the cap” team. They have to pay Burrow very soon. They’ll do that. Joe Burrow will retire a Bengal. He’s a local kid who grew up a Bengals fan. This town would riot if they didn’t pay him. But there is no way that they can afford to keep all those weapons. I imagine that they’ll keep Chase to keep Burrow happy and move in from Boyd and Higgins. All that being said, if the Bengals win a Superbowl this year all bets are off. 

 

Burrows is on his 5th year option next year and of course they have to sign him.  Actually, he should have got his extension this summer like Josh did.

 

Like you said, it will be interesting what they do after that.

[Matt_In_NH]

Looks like the re-strucutures are on Spotract but I did not look previously.....Taron has void money added in 2023.   The void year thing was not used much previous to Covid, does not seem like a great idea to me but the Bills are one of the teams doing a fair amount of that.

[John from Riverside]

18 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Offer a 2 and a 5 for Evans.  That way we won't need to fret over Beane's 2nd rounder busting 

I don’t understand why people would think that this is a good idea

 

We have been kicking a lot of contracts down the road kicking the can of paying them

 

There’s going to come a year probably this next year where we’re gonna have to pay up on some of the stuff and we’re going to need all the draft picks. We can get to replace players

 

Why in the world would we give up a second round pick or even the fifth round pick for an aging Mike Evans whenever we can just go draft a kid

 

Where is going to be a point come real soon where we’re going to have our nucleas of players and we’re gonna have to start drafting and playing younger guys. That is the world of having a franchise quarterback

 

that is probably the reason why we have not traded away Elam in hopes that he picks things up whenever we have to make a tough decision on Tre’Davious whites contract