Good Night / Bad Night - Pre-season game 2

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Good night for Van Denmark. He played LT the entire 2nd half. I specifically watched him on every snap and I didn't see him lose a single rep. That's two weeks in a row that he looked solid at LT, albeit against 2nd and 3rd stringers.

 

Bad night for Elam. Somehow he has regressed even further. Last night was the worst performance I've seen from him. Way too grabby and looked lost in coverage a couple times. Maybe the all-22 will show some favorable reps but what I saw on broadcast footage was bad.

 

The whole 2022 draft class is trending towards throwaway status. Hopefully Cook can salvage it a bit. Luckily the 2023 draft class is looking like a possible home run.

Maybe we can start VanDermark and Jason peters!  There’s hope!

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I think Van Demark should be on this roster.

 

He is practically a lock now, right? He is the first in at LT after Dawkins and has played well. Plus he has no competition. Shell retired, Doyle is likely done for the year, Quessenberry has been awful.

[Einstein]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Also, the 3rd down where Allen rolled right allowing a well blocked TJ Watt to get a pressure on Brown's side was entirely on Allen.

 

Agree on that. Allen bailed for absolutely no reason.

[Jukester]

Yep as much as he is our savior,  he does need to start playing with more composure. This video is telling. 
 

 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Herb Nightly said:

Williams is not proving he can play MIDDLE linebacker in this defense 

 

Is he?  And the other guys are proving they can?

 

22 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Williams is a pipsqueak.

 

He's the same size as several top MLBs in the game.  So that dog don't hunt.

[HappyDays]

18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

It's second down and 20 something..........a good pass rushing defense isn't giving you 3+ seconds to throw there.

 

Brown needs to hold up better than this against the likes of Markus Golden:

 

He was immediately knocked off balance and never recovered. The best thing he did on that play was take the holding penalty to ensure Allen wasn't walloped in a meaningless preseason game.

 

Agreed that Allen left the pocket too early on the other pressure. In preseason I'm fine with it as long as it is for caution and not a genuine mistake. There were times last year that Allen clearly did not trust his OL and made mistakes leaving the pocket early because of it.

 

In general I was a little dismayed by the starting offense running the "bombs away" offense that most fans agree we need to see less of coming out of last year. Especially in a meaningless preseason game against a ferocious pass rush, I don't understand the reasoning behind that plan. I would have much rather used that game to focus on running and getting the ball out of Allen's hands quickly. I'm not going to read too much into preseason play calling, I just hope last night is not a sign of things to come. Kincaid should be a high volume passing target right away. That will keep the offense more on schedule and less boom or bust.

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by HappyDays

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, Jukester said:

Yep as much as he is our savior,  he does need to start playing with more composure. This video is telling. 
 

 

 

 

Hopefully the Saffold induced PTSD will dissipate now that it appears that they have some blocking inside and Allen will start climbing the pocket and taking those easy completions back.

[No_Matter_What]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I just don't agree. I would agree if I thought they were getting mediocre MLB play. At the moment they are not even getting that. They are getting liability MLB play. You probably have to go back to Adolphus Washington on the Dline in 2017 to find a guy who is starting who is at that liablity level. 

 

If they find their way to mediocre I agree they will work their way around it. And obviously I agree on the oline. Particularly the tackles.

Ok understood. If you think Dodson was that bad then it makes sense.

 

I didn't see 2nd half and did not realized he played after he was replaced by Klein in Steelers 3rd drive. SO I guess he was really bad. Which is weird since I remember him being servicable when he started 2 games last year (albeit he was instantly replaced by Klein after he was signed midseason).

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

He’s the real deal regardless if he can block or not imo.  He can get open, catch and rac

I'm just thinking if he isn't on the field as much as he should be, it's probably something like that being the issue

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Brown needs to hold up better than this against the likes of Markus Golden:

 

He was immediately knocked off balance and never recovered. The best thing he did on that play was take the holding penalty to ensure Allen wasn't walloped in a meaningless preseason game.

 

Agreed that Allen left the pocket too early on the other pressure. In preseason I'm fine with it as long as it is for caution and not a genuine mistake. There were times last year that Allen clearly did not trust his OL and made mistakes leaving the pocket early because of it.

 

In general I was a little dismayed by the starting offense running the "bombs away" offense that most fans agree we need to see less of coming out of last year. Especially in a meaningless preseason game against a ferocious pass rush, I don't understand the reasoning behind that plan. I would have much rather used that game to focus on running and getting the ball out of Allen's hands quickly. I'm not going to read too much into preseason play calling, I just hope last night is not a sign of things to come. Kincaid should be a high volume passing target right away. That will keep the offense more on schedule and less boom or bust.

 

 

 

Yeah Brown got torched on that play.

 

Otherwise he was solid.    Guys are getting 8 figure aav contract extensions at RT for playing at that level.    It's not a premium position and I'm not going to get too worked about losing a rep to a crafty vet like Markus Golden when he's holding his own against the best pass rusher in the entire league in TJ Watt.

 

I have concerns about Brown but they are mostly injury related.   Lane Johnson is a LT quality RT for Philadelphia but otherwise most good teams have big stiffs like Brown at RT.   Some even used earlier picks on them.    It's not going to look great if they play that "bombs away" style........they need the short passing game to work.   

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah Brown got torched on that play.

 

Otherwise he was solid.    Guys are getting 8 figure aav contract extensions at RT for playing at that level.    It's not a premium position and I'm not going to get too worked about losing a rep to a crafty vet like Markus Golden when he's holding his own against the best pass rusher in the entire league in TJ Watt.

 

I have concerns about Brown but they are mostly injury related.   Lane Johnson is a LT quality RT for Philadelphia but otherwise most good teams have big stiffs like Brown at RT.   Some even used earlier picks on them.    It's not going to look great if they play that "bombs away" style........they need the short passing game to work.   

One hopes Dorsey has the minimal intelligence requisite to figure that much out and also that Josh abandons the need to emulate Brett Favre all the time going for the long ball. It's just not smart. When we destroyed the Pats* in a near perfect playoff game, he was taking the easy stuff and the offense was unstoppable.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

One hopes Dorsey has the minimal intelligence requisite to figure that much out and also that Josh abandons the need to emulate Brett Favre all the time going for the long ball. It's just not smart. When we destroyed the Pats* in a near perfect playoff game, he was taking the easy stuff and the offense was unstoppable.

 

 

It's a fight..........work the body and soften up the defense and then that creates time for the big punches.   They throwing too many haymakers and making it easy to defend and some of that is definitely on Josh.   Not stepping up in the pocket.   Not putting the ball where it should be(like on the play where somehow Diggs got a pass knocked away by OLB Highsmith).   Josh may be the most dynamic guy at the most important position.........but he still has a lot of room to improve as a QB.

Edited August 20, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[JerseyBills]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Hopefully the Saffold induced PTSD will dissipate now that it appears that they have some blocking inside and Allen will start climbing the pocket and taking those easy completions back.

Not seeing Diggs there is inexcusable 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

We haven’t seen Bernard, but at this point Dorian is looking like the second best LB on the team, albeit playing against lesser competition. If Bernard shows no better than what Dodson has been doing, start force feeding Dorian and take your lumps.

 

Dorian looks great flying into the picture and making the tackle, but if you watch him on reps where he isn't involved in the tackle he is frequently getting driven back 5+ yards by a blocker. It's hard to function as a  MLB if you can't ever take on and shed blocks. I am sure that's why they're only giving him run at WLB right now. Maybe after a full offseason of NFL conditioning and strength training he will be ready for MLB next year. This year I'd be surprised.

 

But hey I understand why fans are grasping at straws right now. My mind is doing the same thing. We don't have even a replacement level player for a full time position in our defense... It's a terrifying thought. I supported and still support our decision to let Edmunds walk for that contract, the problem is the moves they made to replace him have been a complete bust. They might have to make a desperate trade just to get a capable player in the room but I can't think of any realistic trade candidates.

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

One hopes Dorsey has the minimal intelligence requisite to figure that much out and also that Josh abandons the need to emulate Brett Favre all the time going for the long ball. It's just not smart. When we destroyed the Pats* in a near perfect playoff game, he was taking the easy stuff and the offense was unstoppable.

He wasn't only taking easy stuff that game, he was taking everything

 

some of the throws were 10/10 difficulty type, holding the ball for a long time...it's just who he is. I think there's a tendency to remember his 'good' games and think 'well he was just taking the easy throws' because folks equate easy completions w efficient offense

[Dr. Who]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He wasn't only taking easy stuff that game, he was taking everything

 

some of the throws were 10/10 difficulty type, holding the ball for a long time...it's just who he is. I think there's a tendency to remember his 'good' games and think 'well he was just taking the easy throws' because folks equate easy completions w efficient offense

Oh, I wasn't trying to say it was all short stuff. It was a diverse attack, but it was diverse because it did not neglect the entire field and always try to swing for the home run.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Oh, I wasn't trying to say it was all short stuff. It was a diverse attack, but it was diverse because it did not neglect the entire field and always try to swing for the home run.

We have the playmakers for it w Kincaid, need better cohesion from oline and some self reflection from Dorsey/Allen to put it all together

 

But as I always harp on, even at half throttle this offense is still better than 95% of the league

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I did not appreciate Poyer unable to find the angle vs. 4.5 RB

 

Exactly--he sure had the angle on him, but too slow at full speed.

[Maynard]

I think there was a post awhile back that asked who your surprise cut would be and I said Poona Ford. I still stand by that unfortunately. 

[NewEra]

41 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I'm just thinking if he isn't on the field as much as he should be, it's probably something like that being the issue

I hear ya.
 

I just think he’ll be one of the better run blocking slots in the league.  His effort as a blocker is there.  Just continue to work on his technique and strength like knox did.  

[HappyDays]

56 minutes ago, Jukester said:

Yep as much as he is our savior,  he does need to start playing with more composure. This video is telling. 
 

 

 

Yeah that play is awful lol. A textbook case of looking at the rush instead of looking at the routes. If I'm going to try and excuse it, I would guess that before the game it was drilled into Josh's head "don't get hit don't get hit don't get hit" a million times so when he sees a flash of TJ Watt making a spin move he instinctually went into escape mode. Josh is not afraid of contact. I know he has the cajones to stand in the pocket. He just has to trust his OL will hold up and not be thinking about escape as soon as the ball is snapped.

[GoBills808]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah that play is awful lol. A textbook case of looking at the rush instead of looking at the routes. If I'm going to try and excuse it, I would guess that before the game it was drilled into Josh's head "don't get hit don't get hit don't get hit" a million times so when he sees a flash of TJ Watt making a spin move he instinctually went into escape mode. Josh is not afraid of contact. I know he has the cajones to stand in the pocket. He just has to trust his OL will hold up and not be thinking about escape as soon as the ball is snapped.

that's exactly what I saw

 

didn't trust the help on Watt to show up (which it did...not that I necessarily blame Allen for that train of thought) and by that point he's already bailing

 

it's a mistake because he has Diggs there and it's basically a one step drop from shotgun but he need to trust the rookie to switch properly

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Hopefully the Saffold induced PTSD

 

Yeah I think this is a big part of it.

[Ralonzo]

If I didn't make it obvious in other threads:

 

Trending up:

 

Alec Anderson - C/G - Not sure when the light went on for him, but he was very good last week and better this week. Didn't see him lose a rep, and was THE key block in maybe a half dozen snaps. And he has some attitude, casually pitching opponents to the turf. Seems to have superior balance and core strength, much like Teller. His emergence might make Bates the surprise cut this year? If Anderson continues his trajectory like this you could be looking at your post-Morse starter for 10 years.

 

Trending down:

 

Ike Boettger G / David Quessenberry T - Boettger landed on his face just before Doyle wrecked himself trying to block the guy that went by Ike. Quessenberry's mark made multiple plays - i.e. the Barkley fumble. Quessenberry was bad last year and is a shell of that this year. Boettger was Just A Guy at a time when the Bills interior situation made that a vast improvement, and he's also a shell of the player he was before the Achilles.

 

If I get to watching the defensive snaps for analysis, I'll follow on. I will say Hamlin looked like he was in molasses trying to get to the runner at the sideline on one play where Neal flew past him and made the play. Also Dorian looks small standing next to Hamlin lol.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Ralonzo

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, Ralonzo said:

If I didn't make it obvious in other threads:

 

Trending up:

 

Alec Anderson - C/G - Not sure when the light went on for him, but he was very good last week and better this week. Didn't see him lose a rep, and was THE key block in maybe a half dozen snaps. And he has some attitude, casually pitching opponents to the turf. Seems to have superior balance and core strength, much like Teller. His emergence might make Bates the surprise cut this year?

 

Trending down:

 

Ike Boettger G / David Quessenberry T - Boettger landed on his face just before Doyle wrecked himself trying to block the guy that went by Ike. Quessenberry's mark made multiple plays - i.e. the Barkley fumble. Quessenberry was bad last year and is a shell of that this year. Boettger was Just A Guy at a time when the Bills interior situation made that a vast improvement, and he's also a shell of the player he was before the Achilles.

 

If I get to watching the defensive snaps for analysis, I'll follow on. I will say Hamlin looked like he was in molasses trying to get to the runner at the sideline on one play where Neal flew past him and made the play. Also Dorian looks small standing next to Hamlin lol.

Surely Bates would have some value in a trade if it comes to that.

[Ralonzo]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Surely Bates would have some value in a trade if it comes to that.

 

Sure hope so. Chicago comes to mind, lol.

 

But what I'm seeing is, Anderson is out-performing Bates at Bates' former role - primary backup to the 3 interior positions, and a guy who can get you out of a game at tackle. Bates went from that, to starter, but with McGovern signed and Torrence ascending, he needs to outperform Anderson and Edwards and he just isn't.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Ralonzo

[Dr. Who]

5 minutes ago, Ralonzo said:

 

Sure hope so. Chicago comes to mind, lol.

 

But what I'm seeing is, Anderson is out-performing Bates at Bates' former role - primary backup to the 3 interior positions, and a guy who can get you out of a game at tackle. Bates went from that, to starter, but with McGovern signed and Torrence ascending, he needs to outperform Anderson and Edwards and he just isn't.

I am keen on Anderson. Edwards is coming off injury. If he is playing well, that is a plus. I don't think your surmise unreasonable.

[Doc]

Just watched the long TD run play (a handful of times) and Warren fakes like he's going inside and that leads Poyer to take a step inside and lose him.

[major]

31 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah that play is awful lol. A textbook case of looking at the rush instead of looking at the routes. If I'm going to try and excuse it, I would guess that before the game it was drilled into Josh's head "don't get hit don't get hit don't get hit" a million times so when he sees a flash of TJ Watt making a spin move he instinctually went into escape mode. Josh is not afraid of contact. I know he has the cajones to stand in the pocket. He just has to trust his OL will hold up and not be thinking about escape as soon as the ball is snapped.

Also, is being told not to run affecting his mindset?

[Big Blitz]

Last night capped Dodson’s very bad week. 
 

He was probably heated at practice because he was getting abused.  
 

No one gets that mad when they’re playing well.  He’s a freaking cut candidate if you ask me.  I know he saw some game action last year.  He played so “well” I don’t remember which ones or if he did anything.  

Edited August 20, 2023 by Big Blitz

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

that's exactly what I saw

 

didn't trust the help on Watt to show up (which it did...not that I necessarily blame Allen for that train of thought) and by that point he's already bailing

 

it's a mistake because he has Diggs there and it's basically a one step drop from shotgun but he need to trust the rookie to switch properly

 

I do worry that the protection issues have got to him. There were times down the stretch last year when I thought the same. I am not blaming Josh for that - the last two years worth of lines have been offensive... he will have to learn that trust again. That will take some time on task and the oline showing some consistency (I do have some hope for the intetior they have been decent through 2 pre-season games). 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I do worry that the protection issues have got to him. There were times down the stretch last year when I thought the same. I am not blaming Josh for that - the last two years worth of lines have been offensive... he will have to learn that trust again. That will take some time on task and the oline showing some consistency (I do have some hope for the intetior they have been decent through 2 pre-season games). 

I just can't give the oline a pass, I know they're not really big time prospects but enough is enough at this point

 

if you can't run the ball when you need to (and we can't for the last 5years) you need to be above average in pass pro...which they haven't been. there was one half of one season in 2020 where they magically put Williams in at RT and it worked but outside that they are a borderline bad unit overall

 

those things being the case I am entirely willing to live w Allen doing his 90% amazing/10% bonehead routine because it's a more clear path to success than relying on the offensive line to finally figure it out

[noacls]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Williams is a pipsqueak.

He is taller and heavier than Milano.

[SectionC3]

21 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Last night capped Dodson’s very bad week. 
 

He was probably heated at practice because he was getting abused.  
 

No one gets that mad when they’re playing well.  He’s a freaking cut candidate if you ask me.  I know he saw some game action last year.  He played so “well” I don’t remember which ones or if he did anything.  

 

I'm with you on Dodson.  I also wonder if McBeane is going to make a move to shake things up a bit after last night's sleepwalk.  Maybe somebody gets an early release.  Maybe the depth chart somewhere gets a shakeup.  (How about some first team reps for Van Demark this week, for example)?  It's time to rattle some cages. 

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I just can't give the oline a pass, I know they're not really big time prospects but enough is enough at this point

 

if you can't run the ball when you need to (and we can't for the last 5years) you need to be above average in pass pro...which they haven't been. there was one half of one season in 2020 where they magically put Williams in at RT and it worked but outside that they are a borderline bad unit overall

 

those things being the case I am entirely willing to live w Allen doing his 90% amazing/10% bonehead routine because it's a more clear path to success than relying on the offensive line to finally figure it out

 

Oh I am not giving the oline a pass, make no mistake. I have banged on for two years about them being our biggest issue. You are right 2020 is the only time I think Allen has had a good (and it was good not great) offensive line and he had a career year. That isn't coincidence. 

 

I have some hope for the interior going into this year but Dion is really concerning me. Upgrading the guard spots but downgrading at left tackle feels a bit 1 step forward 2 steps back. 

 

[NeverOutNick]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Oh I am not giving the oline a pass, make no mistake. I have banged on for two years about them being our biggest issue. You are right 2020 is the only time I think Allen has had a good (and it was good not great) offensive line and he had a career year. That isn't coincidence. 

 

I have some hope for the interior going into this year but Dion is really concerning me. Upgrading the guard spots but downgrading at left tackle feels a bit 1 step forward 2 steps back. 

 

All off-season I was banging the drum on drafting an OT or even 2. I was happy that we got Kincaid and Cyrus but round 3 we dropped the ball again. I like Williams but we knew he was an OLB and had the chance to move up a couple spots for the Clemson MLB Simpson or stay out and take the best OT available. Which by the way the Chiefs took the OT Morris from Oklahoma the very next pick. I love Beane but he has to drop the pride with keeping some of his picks he’s missed on. Dawkins isn’t the same and Brown May never be what he wants him to be. That’s ok but dude have a backup plan. Hopefully he keeps some of the promising undrafted guys like Van Denmark and Alec Anderson and maybe go out and trade one of your many really good DEs we can’t keep like Johnathan or Cline for another diamond in the rough OT

[vincec]

The other thing that concerned me, which no one is mentioning, is that the starting DL seems unable to generate a pass rush without blitzing or a protection breakdown. They just don’t beat the guys in front of them.

Edited August 20, 2023 by vincec

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah that play is awful lol. A textbook case of looking at the rush instead of looking at the routes. If I'm going to try and excuse it, I would guess that before the game it was drilled into Josh's head "don't get hit don't get hit don't get hit" a million times so when he sees a flash of TJ Watt making a spin move he instinctually went into escape mode. Josh is not afraid of contact. I know he has the cajones to stand in the pocket. He just has to trust his OL will hold up and not be thinking about escape as soon as the ball is snapped.

Bingo.  We have seen Allen stand in and take nasty hits time after time while delivering a perfect strike.  Obviously he was told by McD that in the preseason he is to bail the moment he feels pressure.  And for the record on that play Allen came pretty close to be sandwiched between the two end rushers.

 

 

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Bingo.  We have seen Allen stand in and take nasty hits time after time while delivering a perfect strike.  Obviously he was told by McD that in the preseason he is to bail the moment he feels pressure.  And for the record on that play Allen came pretty close to be sandwiched between the two end rushers.

 

Just saw this clip from the endzone angle which shows exactly why Josh tried to run away:

 

TJ Watt beats Brown on the spin move and appears to be coming right at Josh with a full head of steam. It's at that moment that Josh decided to escape.

 

What Josh didn't expect, and what he will learn, is that Torrence is already WAY ahead of most rookie offensive linemen and made a great cerebral play coming off his double block and helping Brown trap Watt. This is honestly super impressive from Torrence from a physical and a mental standpoint. Last year the likes of Bates and Saffold wouldn't have made this play.

 

If Allen can trust his IOL to make plays like this on the regular he will stand in the pocket and deliver.

 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Just saw this clip from the endzone angle which shows exactly why Josh tried to run away:

 

TJ Watt beats Brown on the spin move and appears to be coming right at Josh with a full head of steam. It's at that moment that Josh decided to escape.

 

What Josh didn't expect, and what he will learn, is that Torrence is already WAY ahead of most rookie offensive linemen and made a great cerebral play coming off his double block and helping Brown trap Watt. This is honestly super impressive from Torrence from a physical and a mental standpoint. Last year the likes of Bates and Saffold wouldn't have made this play.

 

If Allen can trust his IOL to make plays like this on the regular he will stand in the pocket and deliver.

 

I have a feeling the kids going to be some kind of special.