MLB Battle

[Solomon Grundy]

15 hours ago, boyst said:

Spector ain't it. He looked lost last year in PS.  I hope I'm wrong. 

Dotson is solid, has potential for a stop gap at the least but is capable of starting.

Klein is capable of starting, smart, and able to mesh with the defense.

Bernard ia a wildcard

The rookie dude starting this year terrified me.

Last year??🤦

15 hours ago, akcash said:

Did you watch Bernard play last year?

 

they were mostly ST reps because he was a third round pick. He played 2 games and didn't play very good on defense. Hes too small there is no way he is playing MLB. And Spector is bigger and more explosive and from watching the games has better instincts and shedding ability.

 

He shedded Quinton Nelson last year (week 1 preseason game) in a head on collision at full speed. Bernard could never do that.

Out of the bunch, I'm rooting for Spector

[billsbackto81]

Gun to my head, I'm going with Dotson.

 

I'd love to see someone like Spector make a push and show us something.

 

Bernard seems more a Milano back up than a starting MLB. 

 

Wish Beane was more aggressive acquiring a veteran player in FA other than Klein which I kinda feel will be cut.

 

 

[mabden]

16 hours ago, boyst said:

Spector ain't it. He looked lost last year in PS.  I hope I'm wrong. 

Dotson is solid, has potential for a stop gap at the least but is capable of starting.

Klein is capable of starting, smart, and able to mesh with the defense.

Bernard ia a wildcard

The rookie dude starting this year terrified me.

 

Spector was anything but lost in preseason last year and so far the reports from training camp on Spector is, he looks good.  Plays instinctively and flies to the ball.

[mabden]

2 hours ago, CSBill said:

If that is the case, “the best option of a subpar bunch” then it will be Klein. The coaches trust him and his experience. 

 

McDermott trusts him.

[Beck Water]

15 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

No love for Dorian Williams in here?

 

From Astro's Day 5 write-up for what it's worth:

 

"I’m sorry to write this, but Dorian Williams doesn’t look like he knows what he’s doing yet. Grooming him behind Milano is the definite way to go. This isn’t Tulane."

[Old Coot]

6 hours ago, PBF81 said:

Either way, there's likely to be a huge unsolved hole in the middle of our D that IMO people are significantly discounting the impact of. 

This.

 

Say what you will about Edmunds, he had the ability to clog up the middle on pass plays. Whoever plays MLB this year won't have that ability so the entire defense will need to adjust -- maybe with the nickle DB filling the hole on occasion & maybe one of the safeties rotating down to fill but that leaves a single high safety, which is dangerous to play in this league.

 

Likely our D won't be as good as last year so the O will need to pick up the slack.

[boyst]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Yes but Edmunds’ rookie year was Milano’s second. And I agree that’s when he started really popping.

oh i get it but the uuntrained eye did not like milano and still swooned over edmunds who was routinely lost.

 

i wish i'd have kept the comment marked when i dared say milano was going to outplay edmunds and more valuable and important than edmunds. i was raked over coals.

38 minutes ago, mabden said:

 

Spector was anything but lost in preseason last year and so far the reports from training camp on Spector is, he looks good.  Plays instinctively and flies to the ball.

i don't buy into a lot of preseason reports.

 

he did not have a good preseason by my untrained eye. making plays as he did last preseason doesn't mean he was doing his assignemnts and playing well. he didn't look impressive last year

[Beck Water]

52 minutes ago, boyst said:

oh i get it but the uuntrained eye did not like milano and still swooned over edmunds who was routinely lost.

 

i wish i'd have kept the comment marked when i dared say milano was going to outplay edmunds and more valuable and important than edmunds. i was raked over coals.

i don't buy into a lot of preseason reports.

 

he did not have a good preseason by my untrained eye. making plays as he did last preseason doesn't mean he was doing his assignemnts and playing well. he didn't look impressive last year

 

From the tid-bits I get so far (and remembering there's 1 padded practice) Spector looks more like he knows his assignments, reads his keys and shows some patience so far. 

 

But that really doesn't mean too much until we're at least playing against opposing offenses, and even then of course most teams are evaluating players and don't scheme for their opponent too deeply.

[Beck Water]

55 minutes ago, Old Coot said:

This.

 

Say what you will about Edmunds, he had the ability to clog up the middle on pass plays. Whoever plays MLB this year won't have that ability so the entire defense will need to adjust -- maybe with the nickle DB filling the hole on occasion & maybe one of the safeties rotating down to fill but that leaves a single high safety, which is dangerous to play in this league.

 

Likely our D won't be as good as last year so the O will need to pick up the slack.

 

This is just my opinion and I don't have the depth of knowledge that some do here. but I felt from early on, Edmunds played the pass the way Frazier wanted and worked in sync with Milano and Edmunds.  His run D was a work in progress and took strides last season as far as I could tell.  He also didn't "clinch the deal" by actually getting picks as often as they would have liked.  He would discourage a pass from being thrown due to coverage, or get a hand in there for a PBU, but possession didn't change.

 

I think Dodson has the potential to be a better run defender, but is a big step down in pass coverage.  At least that's what I see so far. 

 

I don't know about Spector,  I didn't see enough of last preseason to tell.  He played 6 games, and only on ST last season.  He was inactive for the last 8 games of the season, which is usually not a good sign.

 

Bernard was active all 16 regular season games and 1 playoff game, and played significant ST snaps which usually indicates a guy the coaches see as ahead of the other guy.  He saw time at the end of two early season blowouts which are hard to tell since the other team's "2"s were in and they were kind of phoning it in.  His major playing time was for Milano, in the Jets game.   

 

And let's just say, it was NOT pretty.  Now I grant he had Jacquan Johnson and Damar Hamlin behind him as safeties, but still.

 

 

 

 

[PBF81]

8 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I believe you are correct with Poyer not having surgery. Kind of a good thing, no?

 

If it's fully healed, yes, if not, likely not.  Players often elect not to have surgeries when they should just like they often don't come out of games when they should, due to concussions, etc.  

 

We'll find out on that and the rest though, very soon.  

 

[NickelCity]

I'm counting Bernard out based on too-early reports and too-harsh size judgements. Which means Spector is maybe the only "exciting" choice. It's fun to route for some of these guys during the summer lol. 

[PBF81]

8 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Very similar hair to Edmunds.

 

Not at all.  Edmunds played ILB at VA Tech and was projected as an ILB in the NFL.  Williams was anything but projected as a MLB/ILB in the NFL.  

 

In fact, there's nothing at all in Williams' profile that is suggestive that he even has a good chance of being an even average MLB.  nfl.com, PFF, and the others all say the same.  

 

 

[Sierra Foothills]

14 hours ago, Herb Nightly said:

Tyrel DODSON. With a  "d", not DOTSON. 

 

11 hours ago, JJGauna said:

Dodson, we’ve got Dodson here! See, nobody cares.

 

I think they're calling him Nissan now.

 

Seriously though, I think Dodson is competing with Matakevich for a roster spot as a core four special teamer. If last year is any indication, they cannot play Dodson as a scrimmage linebacker. JMO.

 

Regarding Klein, in past years he has filled in for both Edmunds and Milano and done so effectively because when he's in there the Bills change up their defense and allow him to play a completely different style from Edmunds/Milano. Klein has never been anything but an effective player for the Bills.

 

Regarding Spector, I like what I saw of him last year and believe he's a legit candidate to start.

 

[boyst]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

From the tid-bits I get so far (and remembering there's 1 padded practice) Spector looks more like he knows his assignments, reads his keys and shows some patience so far. 

 

But that really doesn't mean too much until we're at least playing against opposing offenses, and even then of course most teams are evaluating players and don't scheme for their opponent too deeply.

I like that you use that word patience. I think that sums up what I did not see last year, and it might be confusing to some. His hustle to the ball was genuine, but it seemed like he broke out of assignments, lost discipline on the overall scheme, and just played more like a backyard style ball that an actual piece of this defense.

 

Is built to be a symbiotic unit. As strong as their weakest link in every sense of the term. Losing Gap integrity, tell Richard responsibility, and the vision needed to play middle linebacker in this defense is very costly. This is something that people jumped all over Edmunds about but he is truly an athletic freak that allowed him to recover with not just his size but his quickness to react. The sharper I always criticized that he was too late to react or recognize the place.

 

Anyway, time will tell. And I hope I'm wrong. It's not like seeing preseason action of this guy last year is 100% the story but I am a pessimist in this regard

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, Old Coot said:

This.

 

Say what you will about Edmunds, he had the ability to clog up the middle on pass plays. Whoever plays MLB this year won't have that ability so the entire defense will need to adjust -- maybe with the nickle DB filling the hole on occasion & maybe one of the safeties rotating down to fill but that leaves a single high safety, which is dangerous to play in this league.

 

Likely our D won't be as good as last year so the O will need to pick up the slack.

 

I also think that we're going to find out that in a more appropriate and traditional role, that Edmunds will be much better than he was here as well.  

 

He'll be a MLB in a traditional 4-3, IMO he's going to be one of the top LBs by season's end merely by virtue of that change, raising questions as to our approach here.  

 

 

[4merper4mer]

57 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Not at all.  Edmunds played ILB at VA Tech and was projected as an ILB in the NFL.  Williams was anything but projected as a MLB/ILB in the NFL.  

 

In fact, there's nothing at all in Williams' profile that is suggestive that he even has a good chance of being an even average MLB.  nfl.com, PFF, and the others all say the same.  

 

 

But the hair!

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Fans need to get used to the idea that the middle of the field is going to get exposed this year. Hopefully they can become more aggressive under McD and generate extra turnovers to make up for it. Klein had 5 sacks and 2 FF for the Bills in 2020 on limited time. People should def not be counting him out. The rest of these guys are all huge question marks. Better to have the guy who’s produced and knows the system & calls. I think they will look to upgrade in the draft next year. 

[PBF81]

9 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Fans need to get used to the idea that the middle of the field is going to get exposed this year. Hopefully they can become more aggressive under McD and generate extra turnovers to make up for it.

 

Agree

 

9 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Klein had 5 sacks and 2 FF for the Bills in 2020 on limited time. People should def not be counting him out. The rest of these guys are all huge question marks. Better to have the guy who’s produced and knows the system & calls. I think they will look to upgrade in the draft next year. 

 

At 32 he may be the best option there, but he ain't gettin' any faster and 4.5 of those sacks and one of the two FFs were clumped up in three games in 2020, he hasn't had a sack or FF since in over 500 defensive snaps.  

 

Last season he had 86 defensive snaps (not sure at which LB position, presumably MLB), to Dodson's 220 and Bernard's 110.  

 

 

[gonzo1105]

51 minutes ago, boyst said:

I like that you use that word patience. I think that sums up what I did not see last year, and it might be confusing to some. His hustle to the ball was genuine, but it seemed like he broke out of assignments, lost discipline on the overall scheme, and just played more like a backyard style ball that an actual piece of this defense.

 

Is built to be a symbiotic unit. As strong as their weakest link in every sense of the term. Losing Gap integrity, tell Richard responsibility, and the vision needed to play middle linebacker in this defense is very costly. This is something that people jumped all over Edmunds about but he is truly an athletic freak that allowed him to recover with not just his size but his quickness to react. The sharper I always criticized that he was too late to react or recognize the place.

 

Anyway, time will tell. And I hope I'm wrong. It's not like seeing preseason action of this guy last year is 100% the story but I am a pessimist in this regard

Spector was a 6th round pick. If what you are saying is true about not playing his assignment, lacked discipline in his play etc he wouldn’t have made the team. 
 

What you’re saying is not true. McDermott and staff would have said well we have an undisciplined, doesn’t know his assignment or call on defense so goodbye. 
 

You can argue oh they kept him because he was a rookie draft pick but this regime has cut many late round guys who weren’t cutting it. They would have cut and stashed him on the PS. 
 

The only argument left after that is they didn’t want another team stealing him off the PS which in turn would mean the staff liked Spector enough and his play last year during the preseason to keep him on the active roster to develop him. 

[boyst]

21 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

Spector was a 6th round pick. If what you are saying is true about not playing his assignment, lacked discipline in his play etc he wouldn’t have made the team. 
 

What you’re saying is not true. McDermott and staff would have said well we have an undisciplined, doesn’t know his assignment or call on defense so goodbye. 
 

You can argue oh they kept him because he was a rookie draft pick but this regime has cut many late round guys who weren’t cutting it. They would have cut and stashed him on the PS. 
 

The only argument left after that is they didn’t want another team stealing him off the PS which in turn would mean the staff liked Spector enough and his play last year during the preseason to keep him on the active roster to develop him. 

Opinions vary

[gonzo1105]

Just now, boyst said:

Opinions vary

It’s not an opinion. An NFL coaching staff decided to keep a 6th round rookie LB on their roster all year. One that was competing for a SB. They obviously saw his play as disciplined and developable. If they didn’t he wouldn’t have made the roster. That’s a fact not an opinion 

[MJS]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

I like that you use that word patience. I think that sums up what I did not see last year, and it might be confusing to some. His hustle to the ball was genuine, but it seemed like he broke out of assignments, lost discipline on the overall scheme, and just played more like a backyard style ball that an actual piece of this defense.

 

Is built to be a symbiotic unit. As strong as their weakest link in every sense of the term. Losing Gap integrity, tell Richard responsibility, and the vision needed to play middle linebacker in this defense is very costly. This is something that people jumped all over Edmunds about but he is truly an athletic freak that allowed him to recover with not just his size but his quickness to react. The sharper I always criticized that he was too late to react or recognize the place.

 

Anyway, time will tell. And I hope I'm wrong. It's not like seeing preseason action of this guy last year is 100% the story but I am a pessimist in this regard

He barely played last year. How could have any opinion about him? He played 12 snaps on defense!

[boyst]

Just now, gonzo1105 said:

It’s not an opinion. An NFL coaching staff decided to keep a 6th round rookie LB on their roster all year. One that was competing for a SB. They obviously saw his play as disciplined and developable. If they didn’t he wouldn’t have made the roster. That’s a fact not an opinion 

Let's play a game:

1) NFL staff kept him on the roster all year: fact

2) they saw him as disciplined: unknown

3) they saw he was developmental: unknown (likely.... obviously true)

4) they wouldn't have put him on the roster: unknown (see Jaquan Johnson and Bobby Hart).

 

We do not know what the coaches thought. Perhaps because he was deemed coachable he was deemed worthwhile as a project. We don't know what they think.

 

Zoomers don't understand empirical fact anymore. It's weird.

3 minutes ago, MJS said:

He barely played last year. How could have any opinion about him? He played 12 snaps on defense!

In preseason I watched him. Some woman near us in Carolina was friends with him in college so I paid attention and rewatched some pre season games when I had nothing else to do in September.

[gonzo1105]

6 minutes ago, boyst said:

Let's play a game:

1) NFL staff kept him on the roster all year: fact

2) they saw him as disciplined: unknown

3) they saw he was developmental: unknown (likely.... obviously true)

4) they wouldn't have put him on the roster: unknown (see Jaquan Johnson and Bobby Hart).

 

We do not know what the coaches thought. Perhaps because he was deemed coachable he was deemed worthwhile as a project. We don't know what they think.

 

Zoomers don't understand empirical fact anymore. It's weird.

In preseason I watched him. Some woman near us in Carolina was friends with him in college so I paid attention and rewatched some pre season games when I had nothing else to do in September.

Bobby Hart was actually not bad as a 6th offensive lineman and Johnson was kept for his STs. 

What the hell is a zoomer. I actually had to look it up. I’m 38 years old lol. I worked in D1 football for Lance Leipold at Buffalo, a guy who knows talent if you can’t tell. I worked on his recruiting staff. I know an NFL scout for the Jets, Texans, and Bears that I used to work with. I know the Offensive line coach at South Dakota State, who was previously the TE coach there, who raved about Tucker Kraft last year to me which made me a fan of him. 
 

Coaches don’t keep undisciplined, uncontrollable  6th rounders. 

 

[In Summary]

I hope Floyd is legit this year.

[MJS]

5 hours ago, boyst said:

In preseason I watched him. Some woman near us in Carolina was friends with him in college so I paid attention and rewatched some pre season games when I had nothing else to do in September.

You are basing your entire opinion of a player based on limited preseason snaps in their rookie year?

 

Just brutal.

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

It’s not an opinion. An NFL coaching staff decided to keep a 6th round rookie LB on their roster all year. One that was competing for a SB. They obviously saw his play as disciplined and developable. If they didn’t he wouldn’t have made the roster. That’s a fact not an opinion 

 

He is also a very good ST player.  That likely factored in. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I wouldn’t say battle. This is more like an argument.

[GunnerBill]

Let's take a step back slightly from "who will play MLB?" and think about the makeup of the linebacker room more generally:

 

What do we know:

1. The Bills under this regime have fluctuated between keeping 5 and 6 linebackers.

2. Last year they started with 6 on the roster and ended with 7 having added AJ Klein in-season.

3. Matt Milano is one of their best players and will be one of the 5/6 and start at WILL (I'm going to say WILL now for ease of reference but they do use him as the SAM in some true nickel looks whereas in their "base" Taron Johnson to all intents and purposes plays SAM).

4. The backup linebackers HAVE to play special teams. 

5. Tyler Matakevich is a Special Teams captain (their other one, Taiwan Jones, has moved on) and there are $0 cap savings associated with moving on from him. So I think we can pencil him in. 

6. I think it is a pretty safe assumption that, even though they have now reverted to their original post-draft position of "Williams is not competing at MLB", they are not cutting their most recent 3rd round pick and he will be Milano's backup. That means they have the WILL position covered.

 

Which probably gets us to: there are three spots up for grabs and four players competing: Terrel Bernard, Tyrel Dodson, AJ Klein and Braylon Spector.

 

From that group they are looking for their 2 best options at MLB. I suspect AJ Klein will get one of those spots as the vet insurance. The safe floor guy. Even if they tab someone else to start, if they have any doubt at all about their choice they will keep Klein. The only way Klein doesn't make it is if someone flat out just wins the job and is obviously the best player of the group, in which case they might feel secure enough with a developmental guy as the backup. But that feels like a long shot. 

 

That leaves it very likely as Bernard v Dodson v Spector. So what do we know about that battle:

1. The defensive depth chart last year was Dodson, Bernard, Spector. 

2. Special Teams usage last year was also Dodson, Bernard, Spector.

3. #2 is partly because Spector was the guy who was a healthy scratch most of the year. But ceiling wise he is the best STer.

4. Cutting Dodson offers $0 in cap savings. Bernard and Spector would offer $900k and $800k in savings respectively. 

5. Dodson is a one year contract. Bernard and Spector would both be cheap depth for a longer period. 

 

My view is you end up coming down to it is Dodson or Bernard, not both and then Spector as a STer who they still think they can develop some at LB (and is the option that gives them some size). Based on camp reports so far it seems like Dodson is the guy getting the most run with the 1st unit. I suspect that is another example of the Bills valuing familiarity and experience in the scheme. But then Bernard is a 2nd year player who they spent a 3rd rounder on. To this point the highest pick guy they have given up on in year two is Vosean Joseph, a 5th rounder, who was essentially beaten out by Dodson as an UDFA from the same class). If Bernard is the odd man out then a) that pick stands alone atop of the Beane Bust Tree and b) he would essentially be beaten out by Spector a 6th rounder from the same class. 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by GunnerBill

[boyst]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

You are basing your entire opinion of a player based on limited preseason snaps in their rookie year?

 

Just brutal.

I am judging his 2022 season on his pre season play

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is also a very good ST player.  That likely factored in. 

This is also true

[CapeBreton]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

My view is you end up coming down to it is Dodson or Bernard, not both and then Spector as a STer who they still think they can develop some at LB (and is the option that gives them some size). Based on camp reports so far it seems like Dodson is the guy getting the most run with the 1st unit. I suspect that is another example of the Bills valuing familiarity and experience in the scheme. But then Bernard is a 2nd year player who they spent a 3rd rounder on. To this point the highest pick guy they have given up on in year two is Vosean Joseph, a 5th rounder, who was essentially beaten out by Dodson as an UDFA from the same class). If Bernard is the odd man out then a) that pick stands alone atop of the Beane Bust Tree and b) he would essentially be beaten out by Spector a 6th rounder from the same class. 

 

 

If it's close, Bernard may actually have some trade value around the league that the other guys don't have. I'm sure Beane could salvage a late round pick for Bernard if needed.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, CapeBreton said:

 

If it's close, Bernard may actually have some trade value around the league that the other guys don't have. I'm sure Beane could salvage a late round pick for Bernard if needed.

 

He may but I wouldn't say that's a given. He genuinely had very little buzz in the run up to the draft in 2023 and I think it is conceivable that if the Bills hadn't selected him he'd have lasted well into day 3. So this isn't a case where a consensus day 2 type flames out at his first stop and a lot of other teams who liked him in the draft think "worth a shot." This is a guy who the Bills probably took at least a round, maybe two, before other teams would have considered him. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

From that group they are looking for their 2 best options at MLB. I suspect AJ Klein will get one of those spots as the vet insurance. The safe floor guy. Even if they tab someone else to start, if they have any doubt at all about their choice they will keep Klein.

 

They get the same outcome and insurance if they stash Klein on the PS. There is no chance of another team poaching him. If one of Dodson, Bernard, or Spector were cut, we would risk losing them on waivers. In a worst case scenario they could always add Klein to the active roster later in the season. I suspect that is the plan right now.

[SoCal Deek]

I find it hard to believe that a team that’s supposed to be competing for a Super Bowl is going to keep a guy simply because they drafted him a few spots above another guy on the roster. Not after watching them both in their facilities for over a year. Seems a bit petty to me. Now, I have zero knowledge of how either of these players is doing, but I’m sure the Bills staff has way more knowledge about them now then they did coming out of college. 

[Udubalum07]

Klein is the only one that hasn't gotten a chance with the 1s. I'm thinking they are looking to go young this year, and hopefully have a multi year cost savings at that spot. 

 

They will plan to put Klein on the practice squad and if somebody gets hurt then they can have h him activated. I do think that the other three would be picked up if cut. 

[GunnerBill]

45 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They get the same outcome and insurance if they stash Klein on the PS. There is no chance of another team poaching him. If one of Dodson, Bernard, or Spector were cut, we would risk losing them on waivers. In a worst case scenario they could always add Klein to the active roster later in the season. I suspect that is the plan right now.

 

Fair, but it is a spectrum IMO. From "really worried about the other options Klein stats" to "completely confident, we don't need Klein". They would need to be closer to the latter along that spectrum for the practice squad to be the way they go. Especially as I think you only get 3 free elevations don't you?

[PBF81]

17 minutes ago, Udubalum07 said:

Klein is the only one that hasn't gotten a chance with the 1s. I'm thinking they are looking to go young this year, and hopefully have a multi year cost savings at that spot. 

 

They will plan to put Klein on the practice squad and if somebody gets hurt then they can have h him activated. I do think that the other three would be picked up if cut. 

 

My thoughts as well.  Klein's a 32 year-old below average LB.  No significant cap hit and hasn't done much of anything in his most recent appearances.  

 

Does he qualify for the practice squad though?  

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 7/30/2023 at 10:43 PM, bills6969 said:

What are their Madden ratings?  That’s only way to settle this 

I’m guessing all in mid 60s low 70s.  Probably fair. The middle of the defense is going to be a weakness like never before this season. 

[HappyDays]

Dodson is apparently starting with the 1s today which breaks up the MLB rotation. Today would have been Spector's turn. Could mean he's out of the running, or could be random.

[HappyDays]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Especially as I think you only get 3 free elevations don't you?

 

Yeah but they could always add him to the active roster permanently if they needed to. Dodson, Bernard, or Spector they might lose to another team. Klein is safe on the PS. So it's less risky to leave him there and bring him up later in the season if it becomes necessary.