Players That Should Be HOF Inductee's But Are Not .

[scuba guy]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Ted Washington

 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Washington

 

You suck Greg Williams

 

 

Remember when madden I think was calling a game and said skinny Ted was listed at 305 de for bills was listed on program at 265. He kept saying Ted had not weighted 305 since high school his left leg weight more. He went on for like 10 minutes 😳. 

[freddyjj]

14 hours ago, Pete said:

Ricky “ should of won the heisman” Watters

Should have.  C'mon Man!

 

Tommy Nobis MLB Atlanta Falcons 1966-1976.  

[SirAndrew]

I think the football HOF does a really good job. There aren’t many players where it’s a travesty they haven’t made it. Ask me this question about the Rock & Roll HOF and I could go on for days. 

[Mr. WEO]

nah

[Shortchaz]

Pete rose 

[Billl]

8 hours ago, mannc said:

Priest Holmes.  I didn't dig deep into the stats, but for at least three seasons, in which he had more than 2000 yards combined rushing and receiving, he was clearly the best running back in football.  To me, that makes him a Hall of Famer.

He had 51 total TDs and 4400 total yards in a 2 year span.  That is absolutely mind blowing.

[par73]

60's Bills, along with Sestak, Saimes and Stratton, I would suggest Ron McDole (great career with Bills-- 5-time All-AFL, and Washington). And as in the case with Byrd-- why isn't he on the Wall of Fame?

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

WR Hines Ward of the Pittsburgh Steelers, Not only one of the best WR from that era but was doing it with guys like Kordell Stewart, Mike Tomzack and Tommy Maddox from 1998 until Big Ben came around in 2004. He was also the best blocking WR I've ever seen and probably ever will.

 

DE L.C. Greenwood- Part of the Steel Curtain defense, 78 sacks, had 4 sacks on Roger Staubach in the SB that was a huge part of why they won. It's crazy to me that he isn't in the HOF already.

 

OL Joe Jacoby- huge part of that hogs OL, top notch OL, should have been in long ago and can't think of why he's not?

[Gambit]

12 hours ago, mannc said:

Priest Holmes.  I didn't dig deep into the stats, but for at least three seasons, in which he had more than 2000 yards combined rushing and receiving, he was clearly the best running back in football.  To me, that makes him a Hall of Famer.

He was so damn fun to watch. 

[hondo in seattle]

23 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Great post! I’m an amateur internet Bills historian (over at BillsFans.com), so this is a fun topic for me.

 

Regarding Cookie Gilchrist: absolutely! He was the AFL’s most Hall-worthy HB/FB running back, one of that league’s first superstars, and also a 1960’s civil rights icon for the entire sports world. The CFL was considered on par with the NFL and AFL way back then, so Cookie’s 6 years of dominance there should factor in any consideration for the PRO FOOTBALL Hall of Fame.

 

Unfortunately, Cookie is a victim of the Hall’s heavy bias against the AFL. I’ll name 3 other AFL Bills who deserve to be in the Hall of Fame:

 

1. Tom Sestak, DT: arguably the greatest defensive lineman in AFL history. He was the best player on a legendary 1960’s defense.

2. Mike Stratton, OLB: a rangy do-it-all LB (stopping the run, covering, rushing the QB) and the prototype for the modern era LB. He delivered perhaps the greatest and most impactful single tackle in pro football history (1964 AFL championship game against Keith Lincoln).

3. George Saimes, S: among the very best open-field tacklers in pro football history. Booker Edgerson couldn’t have been the shutdown CB that he was and Butch Byrd couldn’t have been the playmaking CB that he was without Saimes roaming the secondary.

 

Regarding Tasker: yes, definitely! This isn’t even up for debate with anyone who properly respects special teams…i.e. anyone who knows anything about football.

 

Regarding Tommy Hughitt: love the reference! But…he won’t ever make it in and probably doesn’t deserve to be in, either. That inaugural 1920 season has a large asterisk next to it because the All-Americans played half of their 10 games against second-rate opponents outside of the league. So the franchise really only had 1.5 excellent seasons. Also, Hughitt wasn’t obviously the best player on those early teams. They were called the “All-Americans” because they were stacked with elite college talent. I would put teammate, Swede Youngstrom, in the Pro Football Hall of Fame before Hughitt.

 

Having said all that, Hughitt was the undisputed leader of that franchise and someone whom I consider the “Godfather of Buffalo pro football.” I would recommend a spot for him in the Buffalo Bills Wall of Fame and possibly also an official retirement of his jersey number, 1. Ralph Wilson doesn’t place the Bills in Buffalo had it not been for the attendance success of the 1946-1949 AAFC Buffalo Bills, and the AAFC Bills don’t exist in Buffalo without Tommy Hughitt’s successful efforts in the first half of the 1920’s.

 

This is an awesome comment by someone who knows their Buffalo football history.  Thanks for posting! 

 

I get what you're saying about Hughitt not being the star.  Somewhere I read Ockie Anderson - who rotated with Hughitt at QB and RB - was the better runner.  But Hughitt was no slouch as a player.  As I understand it, he was always on the field making meaningful contributions at one position or another.  In 1920, Hughitt scored 52 points (8 TDs, 4 conversions) of Buffalo's league-leading 258 points.  Hughitt, by himself, outscored our opponents who managed only 32 points against us that season.  In 1922, George Halas & the Canton Daily News named Hughitt the starting QB of the NFL All-Pro team.  

 

The All-Americans had the best record over the first two years of the league and scored - by far - the most points.  They also had the biggest point differential.  When you consider his accomplishments both as a player and coach, Hughitt is worthy of the HOF, though I know his induction will never happen.  In 1969, when Canton named its 1920s all-decade team, they didn't include Hughitt or any Buffalo players, despite our early dominance.  

 

Btw, it seems very Billsy that the Buffalo squad tied for the league lead in the first two seasons of the NFL but still didn't win a championship.

 

 

P.S.  As a football historian, you're probably aware of the good article on Hughitt posted by the Pro Football Researchers Association:

www.profootballresearchers.org/biography/Hughitt_Tommy.pdf

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by hondo in seattle

[Chandler#81]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:13 PM, BoccesOnTransit said:

Kent Hull

No legit cred. We all loved him and he was the catalyst of the K-Gun. But he only made 1 Pro Bowl, fair or not. That doesn’t even get you cred in the Hall of Very Good.

Like Kelly, he was a USFL orphan who joined the Bills the same day Jimbo did and they both retired on the same day.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

Hines Ward comes to mind. Steve Smith as well. 

[T master]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:08 AM, BillsPride12 said:

He was great, I really think he got overshadowed by there already being so many Superstars on those Bills teams

 

Hey that might be a thought for the NFL to discuss adding entire teams not individuals to the HOF . Teams that dominated & were exceptional like our Bills were & like the Steelers, 49ers, Cowboys, & others that players other wise will never make it into the HOF .

 

Or maybe even offensive & defensive unit's that were legendary like the Purple people eaters, or the Bills Bermuda Triangle, I know it's pretty far fetched & will never happen but hey its something to create conversation .

 

Have a separate section for something like that just a thought ... 🤔😜🙄😎

 

Oh and those teams from the AFL years our Bills being one should be added into the HOF too they were champions just pre merger .

Edited May 13, 2023 by T master

[Beast]

The list is ZERO.

 

The HOF is already watered down.

[T master]

21 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Ted Washington

 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Washington

 

You suck Greg Williams

 

 

 

Ted was one BAD MAN !!  And one big SOAB too 6' 5" - 375+ lbs would love to see comparable to him on the team today !! 

Edited May 13, 2023 by T master

[skibum]

There are far more examples of players who should NOT be in the HOF, but are; than there are examples of players who should be, but aren't.

[Simon Says]

Old news, no need to bring the Tasker thing up repeatedly. 

[Bruce200]

5X All Pro Nose Tackle Fred Smerlas

Edited May 14, 2023 by Bruce200

[Marvin]

Disclaimer: I am unapologetically line-obsessed.

 

Clay Matthews, L.C. Greenwood, Joe Jacoby, Ron McDole, and Steve Tasker are near the top of my list.  I am sure that there are numerous linemen who were better than some of the players who are in on big offencive numbers.  IMHO, the media part of the HoF selectors wouldn't know good line play if it ran them over.

[ganesh]

London Fletcher

 

Started 215 consecutive games and played in 256 Consecutive games.  Played for 12 years and lead the league in tackles multiple years.  Was a UDFA signing of the Rams

[EasternOHBillsFan]

CORNELIUS BENNETT.

 

To not have him in and allow the players to get in they choose now is an absolute joke.

 

https://www.notinhalloffame.com/football/10388-103-cornelius-bennett

[hondo in seattle]

12 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

CORNELIUS BENNETT.

 

To not have him in and allow the players to get in they choose now is an absolute joke.

 

https://www.notinhalloffame.com/football/10388-103-cornelius-bennett

 

Biscuit was the UPI Defensive Player of the Year twice.  How many guys won twice and don't make the Hall?  

 

But I think the selectors have Bills fatigue.  For a team that never won the Super Bowl, the 90s Bills already have a gaggle of busts.  

[Rico]

16 hours ago, ganesh said:

London Fletcher

 

Started 215 consecutive games and played in 256 Consecutive games.  Played for 12 years and lead the league in tackles multiple years.  Was a UDFA signing of the Rams

More worthy than Zack Thomas.

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 5/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, hondo in seattle said:

This is an awesome comment by someone who knows their Buffalo football history.  Thanks for posting! 

 

I get what you're saying about Hughitt not being the star.  Somewhere I read Ockie Anderson - who rotated with Hughitt at QB and RB - was the better runner.  But Hughitt was no slouch as a player.  As I understand it, he was always on the field making meaningful contributions at one position or another.  In 1920, Hughitt scored 52 points (8 TDs, 4 conversions) of Buffalo's league-leading 258 points.  Hughitt, by himself, outscored our opponents who managed only 32 points against us that season.  In 1922, George Halas & the Canton Daily News named Hughitt the starting QB of the NFL All-Pro team.  

 

The All-Americans had the best record over the first two years of the league and scored - by far - the most points.  They also had the biggest point differential.  When you consider his accomplishments both as a player and coach, Hughitt is worthy of the HOF, though I know his induction will never happen.  In 1969, when Canton named its 1920s all-decade team, they didn't include Hughitt or any Buffalo players, despite our early dominance.  

 

Btw, it seems very Billsy that the Buffalo squad tied for the league lead in the first two seasons of the NFL but still didn't win a championship.

 

 

P.S.  As a football historian, you're probably aware of the good article on Hughitt posted by the Pro Football Researchers Association:

www.profootballresearchers.org/biography/Hughitt_Tommy.pdf

 

Ockie Anderson was probably the better athlete, but Tommy Hughitt had at one point played basically every football position other than OL and DL. You had to have been pretty athletic to be that versatile!

 

Hughitt’s suitability for the Hall of Fame boils down to a question of the Hall’s size. If it’s a place to be reserved for only 1 member, then everyone besides Tom Brady is excluded. If it’s going to hold something like 1,000 members, then Hughitt is absolutely up for debate! But what about, say, 412 members? That would equal 4 members per year times every year of the league’s existence, which is close to the current total of 371. In that case, I am much more inclined to fight for some of our AFL Bills before I am for Hughitt. Three reasons for that:

 

1. Hughitt and his teams didn’t impact the pro game nearly to the extent that our AFL Bills did. Many fans don’t realize that Cookie’s running prowess and Joe Collier’s defensive dominance did a lot to legitimize (in the eyes of the football-viewing public) the new, wide-open, air-it-out, “gimmicky” AFL style of football. Furthermore, the AFL Bills contributed much to the early schematic blueprints used to counter all those Sid Gillman-esque teams…teams which more closely resembled modern NFL teams, ironically enough, than anything that was seen in the 1960’s NFL.

 

2. Fair or not, pro football snobbery back then favored anything from the Ohio League and looked down upon anything from places like upstate New York. As you may already know, Tommy Hughitt’s All-Americans were born in the pre-1920’s New York Pro Football League. He will have a steep uphill battle with Hall evaluators and football historians because of this.

 

3. The All-Americans franchise went downhill quickly after the exodus of the U Penn trio (Lou Little, Heinie Miller, Lud Wray) and after Ockie Anderson’s career-ending knee injury. Hall of Fame evaluators will hold that against Hughitt when determining his greatness.

 

You are correct in thinking that the great tragedy of the 1920-1921 Buffalo All-Americans is what could have been for the city of Buffalo... Instead of a national laughingstock, maybe the world thinks of us as they do Green Bay and Canton? Maybe Hughitt is thought of in a similar way that Lombardi is for the Packers or Jim Thorpe is for the Canton Bulldogs? Maybe the small-market All-Americans franchise goes on to survive the Great Depression like the Bears, Cardinals, and Giants did? Then again, our Bills wouldn’t have ever existed…

 

P.S. Yes, I’m familiar with much of the PFRA’s work! Jeffrey Miller and Ken Crippen are huge names in the Buffalo pro football history world. As a matter of fact, Ken used to post here at TwoBillsDrive as “KRC.”

[hondo in seattle]

31 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Ockie Anderson was probably the better athlete, but Tommy Hughitt had at one point played basically every football position other than OL and DL. You had to have been pretty athletic to be that versatile!

 

Hughitt’s suitability for the Hall of Fame boils down to a question of the Hall’s size. If it’s a place to be reserved for only 1 member, then everyone besides Tom Brady is excluded. If it’s going to hold something like 1,000 members, then Hughitt is absolutely up for debate! But what about, say, 412 members? That would equal 4 members per year times every year of the league’s existence, which is close to the current total of 371. In that case, I am much more inclined to fight for some of our AFL Bills before I am for Hughitt. Three reasons for that:

 

1. Hughitt and his teams didn’t impact the pro game nearly to the extent that our AFL Bills did. Many fans don’t realize that Cookie’s running prowess and Joe Collier’s defensive dominance did a lot to legitimize (in the eyes of the football-viewing public) the new, wide-open, air-it-out, “gimmicky” AFL style of football. Furthermore, the AFL Bills contributed much to the early schematic blueprints used to counter all those Sid Gillman-esque teams…teams which more closely resembled modern NFL teams, ironically enough, than anything that was seen in the 1960’s NFL.

 

2. Fair or not, pro football snobbery back then favored anything from the Ohio League and looked down upon anything from places like upstate New York. As you may already know, Tommy Hughitt’s All-Americans were born in the pre-1920’s New York Pro Football League. He will have a steep uphill battle with Hall evaluators and football historians because of this.

 

3. The All-Americans franchise went downhill quickly after the exodus of the U Penn trio (Lou Little, Heinie Miller, Lud Wray) and after Ockie Anderson’s career-ending knee injury. Hall of Fame evaluators will hold that against Hughitt when determining his greatness.

 

You are correct in thinking that the great tragedy of the 1920-1921 Buffalo All-Americans is what could have been for the city of Buffalo... Instead of a national laughingstock, maybe the world thinks of us as they do Green Bay and Canton? Maybe Hughitt is thought of in a similar way that Lombardi is for the Packers or Jim Thorpe is for the Canton Bulldogs? Maybe the small-market All-Americans franchise goes on to survive the Great Depression like the Bears, Cardinals, and Giants did? Then again, our Bills wouldn’t have ever existed…

 

P.S. Yes, I’m familiar with much of the PFRA’s work! Jeffrey Miller and Ken Crippen are huge names in the Buffalo pro football history world. As a matter of fact, Ken used to post here at TwoBillsDrive as “KRC.”

 

Let me ask you because I don't know, and you might...

 

In 1920, Buffalo led the league in scoring by a wide margin.  We recorded 258 points that year.  The next best team, the Jim Thorpe led Canton Bulldogs, scored 208.  

 

In 1921, we again led the league in scoring by a wide margin.  We put up 211 points that year versus 148 for the next highest-scoring team, the Akron Indians.  

 

We were an offensive powerhouse.  In the first two seasons combined, we scored 469 points.  The next best team (Canton) scored 314.  We outscored the 2nd most talented team, the storied Bulldogs with 4 Hall of Famers, by just about 50%!

 

Were we just that more talented - with zero HOFers?  Or was Hughitt doing something interesting on offense?   The PFRA article says Hughitt was a "progressive" coach and employed a system he learned from the "legendary" Fielding Yost.  Yost won 4 national championships at Michigan with his "point-a-minute" offense.  Maybe Hughitt did bring some impactful offensive scheme into the NFL???  Something lost to football history???

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by hondo in seattle

[ComradeKayAdams]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

Let me ask you because I don't know, and you might...

 

In 1920, Buffalo led the league in scoring by a wide margin.  We recorded 258 points that year.  The next best team, the Jim Thorpe led Canton Bulldogs, scored 208.  

 

In 1921, we again led the league in scoring by a wide margin.  We put up 211 points that year versus 148 for the next highest-scoring team, the Akron Indians.  

 

We were an offensive powerhouse.  In the first two seasons combined, we scored 469 points.  The next best team (Canton) scored 314.  We outscored the 2nd most talented team, the storied Bulldogs with 4 Hall of Famers, by just about 50%!

 

Were we just that more talented - with zero HOFers?  Or was Hughitt doing something interesting on offense?   The PFRA article says Hughitt was a "progressive" coach and employed a system he learned from the "legendary" Fielding Yost.  Yost won 4 national championships at Michigan with his "point-a-minute" offense.  Maybe Hughitt did bring some impactful offensive scheme into the NFL???  Something lost to football history???

 

Hondo,

 

Their perceived dominance was partly due to the highly uneven scheduling that took place during the 1920’s NFL. Teams would often not play the same number of games or play the same teams. Strength of schedule varied dramatically.

 

The All-Americans played 5 teams outside the league in 1920, defeating them by a total score of 184-13. They would also blow out very weak teams like the Rochester Jeffersons and Columbus Panhandles.

 

But whenever they played the best teams in the country, the scores were much more modest. To be clear, Buffalo was definitely a great team and on par with the very best! But from 1920-1921, the All-Americans collectively outscored the Akron Pros, Chicago Bears, and Canton Bulldogs by a point total of 42-29 over 8 games. That’s an offense averaging only 5.25 points per game against the best competition. By no means was this awful offensive production by the standards of the 1920’s, but it also wasn’t evidence of an unstoppable juggernaut.

 

In terms of football X’s and O’s, it's hard to say how innovative the Buffalo All-Americans were. There was no real game film back then, so newspaper reports are the best evidence for historians. Fielding Yost’s offense had been around for two decades by the time the NFL began. I’m only GUESSING when I say that his University of Michigan offensive system was already fairly well-known to the players from the Midwest and to the teams from the eastern half of the league (Ohio, Michigan, and Western New York). The Ohio League teams would have probably seen it when Tommy Hughitt played against them as QB of the Youngstown Patricians. Teams from Michigan would also regularly play against Ohio League teams.

 

Did any of this help?? Keep in mind that I’m an AMATEUR INTERNET historian lol…you’ll want to consult the PFRA or other experts for better info. Good conversation, though! Thank you for that!

 

-Kay

[hondo in seattle]

34 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Hondo,

 

Their perceived dominance was partly due to the highly uneven scheduling that took place during the 1920’s NFL. Teams would often not play the same number of games or play the same teams. Strength of schedule varied dramatically.

 

The All-Americans played 5 teams outside the league in 1920, defeating them by a total score of 184-13. They would also blow out very weak teams like the Rochester Jeffersons and Columbus Panhandles.

 

But whenever they played the best teams in the country, the scores were much more modest. To be clear, Buffalo was definitely a great team and on par with the very best! But from 1920-1921, the All-Americans collectively outscored the Akron Pros, Chicago Bears, and Canton Bulldogs by a point total of 42-29 over 8 games. That’s an offense averaging only 5.25 points per game against the best competition. By no means was this awful offensive production by the standards of the 1920’s, but it also wasn’t evidence of an unstoppable juggernaut.

 

In terms of football X’s and O’s, it's hard to say how innovative the Buffalo All-Americans were. There was no real game film back then, so newspaper reports are the best evidence for historians. Fielding Yost’s offense had been around for two decades by the time the NFL began. I’m only GUESSING when I say that his University of Michigan offensive system was already fairly well-known to the players from the Midwest and to the teams from the eastern half of the league (Ohio, Michigan, and Western New York). The Ohio League teams would have probably seen it when Tommy Hughitt played against them as QB of the Youngstown Patricians. Teams from Michigan would also regularly play against Ohio League teams.

 

Did any of this help?? Keep in mind that I’m an AMATEUR INTERNET historian lol…you’ll want to consult the PFRA or other experts for better info. Good conversation, though! Thank you for that!

 

-Kay

 

Kay, you've been very informative!  Good stuff!!!  I figured you'd mention Buffalo's weaker schedule and it is, admittedly, a good point.

 

I don't know if the Bills are building a museum at the new stadium, but they should.  And they should have exhibits celebrating the professional football teams that existed in Buffalo before the Bills.  I don't know much but I'd love to learn more and it would be cool to see old game film - where it exists - and artifacts like yellowed 1920's news clippings, leather helmets, and melon-shaped footballs.  

My last push for wanting Hughitt in the HOF...  The Canton Bulldogs are considered by many to be the NFL's first great team.  There's a reason the HOF is in Canton.  But the All-Americans were just as good the first two years of the NFL.  Buffalo scored more points and won more games - admittedly against a weaker schedule.  In head-to-head matchups in the 1920 and 1921 seasons, Buffalo went 1-1-1 against Canton and outscored them.  

 

Canton had 3 HOFers on its 1920 squad and 1 on the 1921 team.  In their short history, Canton had 6 HOFers.  The All-Americans, despite their dominance in 1920-1921 had none.  It seems disproportionate and unfair.  The HOF selection committee should recognize the All-Americans and vote one of their players into the Hall. 

 

Like other NFL teams, the All-Americans had some weak opponents that pumped up their stats.  But Buffalo could compete with the best of them.  In 1921, we finished the regular season undefeated, having beaten the top NFL teams: the Chicago Staleys and Akron Pros (and tying Canton).  But you know the story...  After finishing the season with a convincing 14-0 win against Akron, the exhausted players took a train ride to Chicago with no days rest for an "exhibition" game that the NFL decided to count as a championship game.  Undefeated... but no championship or Hall of Famers.  Doesn't seem right.  

[DrBob806]

Eric Metcalf

Brian Mitchell

 

[C.Biscuit97]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:17 PM, Another Fan said:

Bernie Kosar 

Randall Cunningham 

Phil Simms 

Hot take: Cunningham is the qb of the bills, we win a SB. He played with a bunch of garbage in Philly on offense. That said, he’s not a HOFer.

 

simms is one of the most overrated qbs ever. 

[Chicken Boo]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:26 PM, mannc said:

Priest Holmes.  I didn't dig deep into the stats, but for at least three seasons, in which he had more than 2000 yards combined rushing and receiving, he was clearly the best running back in football.  To me, that makes him a Hall of Famer.

 

Maybe my favorite running back of all time.  

 

He was on pace to break his own TD record when he suffered the knee injury that would ultimately end his career.

[Chicken Boo]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Hot take: Cunningham is the qb of the bills, we win a SB. He played with a bunch of garbage in Philly on offense. That said, he’s not a HOFer.

 

simms is one of the most overrated qbs ever. 

 

Wow!  That's high praise.

 

Shout out to Fred Barnett and Keith Jackson.  Not all pros, but pretty good.

[ComradeKayAdams]

13 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

Kay, you've been very informative!  Good stuff!!!  I figured you'd mention Buffalo's weaker schedule and it is, admittedly, a good point.

 

I don't know if the Bills are building a museum at the new stadium, but they should.  And they should have exhibits celebrating the professional football teams that existed in Buffalo before the Bills.  I don't know much but I'd love to learn more and it would be cool to see old game film - where it exists - and artifacts like yellowed 1920's news clippings, leather helmets, and melon-shaped footballs.  

My last push for wanting Hughitt in the HOF...  The Canton Bulldogs are considered by many to be the NFL's first great team.  There's a reason the HOF is in Canton.  But the All-Americans were just as good the first two years of the NFL.  Buffalo scored more points and won more games - admittedly against a weaker schedule.  In head-to-head matchups in the 1920 and 1921 seasons, Buffalo went 1-1-1 against Canton and outscored them.  

 

Canton had 3 HOFers on its 1920 squad and 1 on the 1921 team.  In their short history, Canton had 6 HOFers.  The All-Americans, despite their dominance in 1920-1921 had none.  It seems disproportionate and unfair.  The HOF selection committee should recognize the All-Americans and vote one of their players into the Hall. 

 

Like other NFL teams, the All-Americans had some weak opponents that pumped up their stats.  But Buffalo could compete with the best of them.  In 1921, we finished the regular season undefeated, having beaten the top NFL teams: the Chicago Staleys and Akron Pros (and tying Canton).  But you know the story...  After finishing the season with a convincing 14-0 win against Akron, the exhausted players took a train ride to Chicago with no days rest for an "exhibition" game that the NFL decided to count as a championship game.  Undefeated... but no championship or Hall of Famers.  Doesn't seem right.  

 

I hear ya! I would love to see at least Tommy Hughitt and Swede Youngstrom in the Hall of Fame. The problem is that the people deciding who gets in have major biases against certain categories of players, particularly anyone who played pre-merger. It will take special committees and concerted outside pressure to ever get them to right these wrongs.

 

An additional note on uneven scheduling that I forgot to mention: the All-Americans played 20 home games but only 3 away games during the 1920 and 1921 seasons! Two of those away games were against George Halas’ Bears in 1921…and you already know the historical significance of those two games...

 

The third was a December 1920 neutral site game against the Canton Bulldogs. It took place at Manhattan’s Polo Grounds and was the first ever pro football game to have been played in NYC. The purpose was to showcase the Midwest regional NFL (called the APFA at the time) to a larger, more national audience. Hughitt’s All-Americans beat Jim Thorpe’s Bulldogs by a score of 7-3. The very next day, a presumably tired All-Americans team played the Akron Pros in Buffalo and only managed to tie them 0-0…and as you know, the 1920 league title was later awarded to the Pros…

 

When people talk about the greatest games in NFL history, I wish more would talk about this December 1920 game at the Polo Grounds! It certainly played a role in popularizing pro football beyond the Great Lakes region and into the mid-Atlantic metropolitan region. If television was around back then, maybe it would have been as impactful as the 1958 NFL Championship game or Super Bowl 3?

[hondo in seattle]

4 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

I hear ya! I would love to see at least Tommy Hughitt and Swede Youngstrom in the Hall of Fame. The problem is that the people deciding who gets in have major biases against certain categories of players, particularly anyone who played pre-merger. It will take special committees and concerted outside pressure to ever get them to right these wrongs.

 

An additional note on uneven scheduling that I forgot to mention: the All-Americans played 20 home games but only 3 away games during the 1920 and 1921 seasons! Two of those away games were against George Halas’ Bears in 1921…and you already know the historical significance of those two games...

 

The third was a December 1920 neutral site game against the Canton Bulldogs. It took place at Manhattan’s Polo Grounds and was the first ever pro football game to have been played in NYC. The purpose was to showcase the Midwest regional NFL (called the APFA at the time) to a larger, more national audience. Hughitt’s All-Americans beat Jim Thorpe’s Bulldogs by a score of 7-3. The very next day, a presumably tired All-Americans team played the Akron Pros in Buffalo and only managed to tie them 0-0…and as you know, the 1920 league title was later awarded to the Pros…

 

When people talk about the greatest games in NFL history, I wish more would talk about this December 1920 game at the Polo Grounds! It certainly played a role in popularizing pro football beyond the Great Lakes region and into the mid-Atlantic metropolitan region. If television was around back then, maybe it would have been as impactful as the 1958 NFL Championship game or Super Bowl 3?

 

Kay, you should write a book about the early days of pro football in Buffalo.  I didn't know about the game at the Polo Grounds - or if I did once know, I had forgotten and didn't register the significance.  Cool we beat the great Jim Thorpe in front of a NYC audience.  Sucks that the game probably affected the important game the following day against Akron.  

 

It's interesting when you look at the old schedules.  Back then professional NFL (APFA) teams played games against non-NFL semipro and pro teams.  In 1920, the great Canton Bulldogs played the Washington Glee Club - an actual glee club???  - in front of 11,000 fans and only managed a tie.  Canton lost to another non-NFL team: Union AA of Phoenixville!  Phoenixville billed itself as the "US Professional Champions" after finishing their season - mostly against non-NFL local clubs - undefeated.  

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:13 AM, hondo in seattle said:

Kay, you should write a book about the early days of pro football in Buffalo.  I didn't know about the game at the Polo Grounds - or if I did once know, I had forgotten and didn't register the significance.  Cool we beat the great Jim Thorpe in front of a NYC audience.  Sucks that the game probably affected the important game the following day against Akron.  

 

It's interesting when you look at the old schedules.  Back then professional NFL (APFA) teams played games against non-NFL semipro and pro teams.  In 1920, the great Canton Bulldogs played the Washington Glee Club - an actual glee club???  - in front of 11,000 fans and only managed a tie.  Canton lost to another non-NFL team: Union AA of Phoenixville!  Phoenixville billed itself as the "US Professional Champions" after finishing their season - mostly against non-NFL local clubs - undefeated.  

 

Hondo,

 

Imagine the 2023 Bills traveling to Kansas City on a Sunday afternoon, and then flying back home to host the Bengals the next night. That is analogous to what the 1920 Buffalo All-Americans had to do to finish their schedule against the Bulldogs and Pros! Remember that everyone back then played on both offense and defense, with about 5 reserve players. I wish we could blame league overlords or someone like George Halas for this terrible schedule, but this was solely the fault of Frank McNeil (Buffalo’s owner at the time).

 

Yeah, pro football pre-1930’s was truly the Wild West compared to what it is now. You had a bunch of regional pro/semi-pro circuits throughout the country with ad hoc scheduling practices. The main goal was simply to play anyone that they thought would draw a large enough crowd (i.e. draw a profit). The Great Depression is what ultimately wiped out the decades-long football culture of somewhat disorganized independent football clubs. The NFL, however, had also been making concerted efforts since its inception to standardize and nationalize pro football. 1927 was a watershed season for this directive. Unfortunately, our beloved Buffalo franchise couldn’t survive both the Great Depression and the NFL’s targeted movement away from small-market Midwest teams.

 

By the way, the 1920 Union Club of Phoenixville was definitely no tomato can on Canton’s schedule! It was a famous independent all-star club from the Philly metro area and actually featured several players who simultaneously played for our Buffalo All-Americans (don’t ask me how that was allowed…). I know nothing, however, about that alleged football juggernaut known as the “Washington Glee Club” lol…

 

If I were to write a book on Buffalo pro football before 1960, I would probably focus on the New York Pro Football League and the emergence of football in Western/Upstate NY roughly between 1870 and 1920. Jeffrey Miller has the 1920-1929 Buffalo NFL franchise covered well with his book, “Buffalo’s Forgotten Champions: The Story of Buffalo’s First Professional Football Team and the Lost 1921 Title.” Ken Crippen has the AAFC Bills covered well with his book, “The Original Buffalo Bills: A History of the All-America Football Conference Team, 1946-1949.” My own book would be fairly comprehensive, focusing on both football strategy evolution and football player stories, while also weaving an overarching societal narrative that pays tribute to the city of Buffalo. If I write it, will you buy?? LOL…

 

-Kay

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 5/11/2023 at 9:09 PM, BuffaloBillyG said:

I have a feeling this will peel of into the old Tasker argument...lol.

 

I think a few guys should be in that aren't. Steve Wisniewski, Neil Smith, Lomas Brown are some guys that stack up well to HoF players of their era. 

 

I also like to mention possibly the best weapon of the modern era at the FB position: Larry Centers. 

 

Just looked up his stats. Very impressive. Especially his time in AZ.

[Matt_In_NH]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:12 AM, hondo in seattle said:

 

Biscuit was the UPI Defensive Player of the Year twice.  How many guys won twice and don't make the Hall?  

 

But I think the selectors have Bills fatigue.  For a team that never won the Super Bowl, the 90s Bills already have a gaggle of busts.  

 

His overall numbers are good, they dont jump off the sheet and scream HOF.  On top of that, this probably has something to do with it.

 

https://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/sops/flyer.jsf?personId=41507

[hondo in seattle]

On 5/17/2023 at 9:35 AM, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Hondo,

 

Imagine the 2023 Bills traveling to Kansas City on a Sunday afternoon, and then flying back home to host the Bengals the next night. That is analogous to what the 1920 Buffalo All-Americans had to do to finish their schedule against the Bulldogs and Pros! Remember that everyone back then played on both offense and defense, with about 5 reserve players. I wish we could blame league overlords or someone like George Halas for this terrible schedule, but this was solely the fault of Frank McNeil (Buffalo’s owner at the time).

 

Yeah, pro football pre-1930’s was truly the Wild West compared to what it is now. You had a bunch of regional pro/semi-pro circuits throughout the country with ad hoc scheduling practices. The main goal was simply to play anyone that they thought would draw a large enough crowd (i.e. draw a profit). The Great Depression is what ultimately wiped out the decades-long football culture of somewhat disorganized independent football clubs. The NFL, however, had also been making concerted efforts since its inception to standardize and nationalize pro football. 1927 was a watershed season for this directive. Unfortunately, our beloved Buffalo franchise couldn’t survive both the Great Depression and the NFL’s targeted movement away from small-market Midwest teams.

 

By the way, the 1920 Union Club of Phoenixville was definitely no tomato can on Canton’s schedule! It was a famous independent all-star club from the Philly metro area and actually featured several players who simultaneously played for our Buffalo All-Americans (don’t ask me how that was allowed…). I know nothing, however, about that alleged football juggernaut known as the “Washington Glee Club” lol…

 

If I were to write a book on Buffalo pro football before 1960, I would probably focus on the New York Pro Football League and the emergence of football in Western/Upstate NY roughly between 1870 and 1920. Jeffrey Miller has the 1920-1929 Buffalo NFL franchise covered well with his book, “Buffalo’s Forgotten Champions: The Story of Buffalo’s First Professional Football Team and the Lost 1921 Title.” Ken Crippen has the AAFC Bills covered well with his book, “The Original Buffalo Bills: A History of the All-America Football Conference Team, 1946-1949.” My own book would be fairly comprehensive, focusing on both football strategy evolution and football player stories, while also weaving an overarching societal narrative that pays tribute to the city of Buffalo. If I write it, will you buy?? LOL…

 

-Kay

 

Sadly, neither Miller's nor Crippen's book is currently available on Amazon.   I suppose it wouldn't have a big audience, but I'd personally love to read a book that covers Buffalo football from its shadowy beginnings in the 19th century all the way to the creation of the modern Bills.   Miller's and Crippen's works probably have a lot of that information.   

 

I didn't know the great depression played a role in the demise of Buffalo professional football.  But I wouldn't call Buffalo a small market team back then, even if its trajectory wasn't a good one.  In 1900, Buffalo was the 8th biggest city in the States.  In 1920, we were the 11th.  In 1940, we were the 14th.  

 

Here's an interesting article on the Washington Glee Club:  www.nhregister.com/news/article/NEW-HAVEN-200-Jim-Thorpe-and-Co-battle-11499619.php

 

By accident, I found out Tommy Hughitt was the (unofficial) third leading scorer in 1920.  We had 3 of the top five.  

 

 

 

 

americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/1920_NFL_season

 

City populations:  www.infoplease.com/us/cities/population-20-largest-us-cities-1900-2012

Edited May 19, 2023 by hondo in seattle

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:21 PM, hondo in seattle said:

Sadly, neither Miller's nor Crippen's book is currently available on Amazon.   I suppose it wouldn't have a big audience, but I'd personally love to read a book that covers Buffalo football from its shadowy beginnings in the 19th century all the way to the creation of the modern Bills.   Miller's and Crippen's works probably have a lot of that information.   

 

I didn't know the great depression played a role in the demise of Buffalo professional football.  But I wouldn't call Buffalo a small market team back then, even if its trajectory wasn't a good one.  In 1900, Buffalo was the 8th biggest city in the States.  In 1920, we were the 11th.  In 1940, we were the 14th.  

 

Here's an interesting article on the Washington Glee Club:  www.nhregister.com/news/article/NEW-HAVEN-200-Jim-Thorpe-and-Co-battle-11499619.php

 

By accident, I found out Tommy Hughitt was the (unofficial) third leading scorer in 1920.  We had 3 of the top five.  

 

 

 

 

americanfootballdatabase.fandom.com/wiki/1920_NFL_season

 

City populations:  www.infoplease.com/us/cities/population-20-largest-us-cities-1900-2012

 

I’ve only read excerpts from Miller’s and Crippen’s books, but I doubt Buffalo pro football history before 1920 is covered sufficiently in either book. Maybe Miller covers a bit of Hughitt’s two seasons in the New York Pro Football League (1918-1919), right before he joined the APFA/NFL?

 

1920’s Buffalo pro football collapsed for multiple reasons. The Great Depression was a key factor, but certainly not the only factor!

 

I guess “small market” is a subjective and relative term. To be more clear, I’m referring to any 1920’s city other than New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, or Cleveland as “small market.” It’s a matter of league size for me. The NFL shrunk to just 12 teams by 1927, 11 by 1930 when the Buffalo franchise permanently disappeared, and only 8 teams by 1932 (5 of which were from the two cities of NYC and Chicago). But I do acknowledge your point, and you’re not wrong! There’s evidence from newspapers back then that the NFL’s subtle disdain for Buffalo could have been due to its weather and its particular geographic location much more so than its population size.

 

Thank you for the article on the Washington Glee Club! It’s a great football underdog story. Now I just need to order one of their jerseys…

 

Yes, Hughitt was such a great player! You know what? One could make a reasonable historical argument that he was the head coach and/or a critical player on the best pro football team in the country for four straight years (1918-1921)!! You’re already aware of the All-Americans’ claims to the 1920 and 1921 APFA titles. Due to all the player movement chaos from the Spanish Flu, the NYPFL’s 1918 Buffalo Niagaras might have been on par with the Ohio League’s 1918 champions, the Dayton Triangles. Likewise, the 1919 Buffalo Prospects could have been highly competitive with the Canton Bulldogs, the 1919 champions of the Ohio League. We’ll never know because these teams obviously never played each other. It’s like asking if the 1964 AFL Bills could have defeated the 1964 NFL Browns (yes!)…or if the 1965 AFL Bills could have defeated the 1965 Packers (um, probably not…).