Do the Bills need a Nose Tackle?

[Yantha]

Change is coming in the 2023 season.  We will have a new DC, with a different philosophy, we've lost our starting MLB and questions remain as to who the starting linebackers will be.  I think it's fair to say that our DL depth is better than our LB depth, but another question has arisen.  "Should we trade Oliver?".

 

Other questions I've seen come up is IF Bernard is the next man up, will the DL need a Nose Tackle to eat up blocks and help Bernard play to his attributes/abilities?  I'll add that even IF we draft Campbell (or any other rookie MLB...), maybe a nose tackle would help the team overall anyways....  even if Tremaine was still here.

 

This thread is to discuss defensive schemes, and whether a pure Nose Tackle should be part of the conversation during this draft.  I'm listing profiles of some prospects that can be discussed here as well.

 

DT Siaki Ika, Baylor (335 lbs) - projected 3rd rounder

 

 

 

 

DT Keondre Coburn, Texas (332 lbs) - Projected 4th round

 

 

 

DT Brodrick Martin, W. Kentucky (330 lbs) - projected 6th round

Sorry, no highlight video....

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Yantha

[John from Riverside]

Yes, on either of these two please
There’s a strong chance that we might be playing with the smallest middle linebacker

[Yantha]

I'm just starting to scratch the surface on this question, but I have to say I'm majorly impressed with that Baylor dude....  Watch his brute strength in the highlight video.  A man amongst boys.  I actually feel bad for those Centers!  lol

Edited April 10, 2023 by Yantha

[Chas56]

They need at least one stout DT. Call him whatever, but they need to get stronger up the middle. That includes MLB. I liked Edmunds side-to-side, but he wasn’t great at hitting gaps hard. Actually having 3 LBs would help cover the sides without Edmunds allowing a MLB to fill holes with a big man holding ground and Oliver helping do that, too. 

[MrEpsYtown]

I think DaQuan Jones has mostly been that guy with a little Tim Settle mixed in. 

 

If they do go to more of a 4-3 under look which is what McDermott was doing in Carolina, then I think a shade 1 tech is a really important position. Jones does fill that spot for now. 

 

Ika wouldn't bother me as long as he isn't drafted too high. Unless you are getting Dexter Lawrence or Vita Vea, who play with ridiculous power and give you pass rush, then you have to wait until later in the draft for a nose tackle. 

 

The guy I like is Jaquelin Roy who the Bills hosted for a private workout. Roy kind of pushed Ika out of LSU as he followed Dave Aranda to Baylor. 

 

 

 

 

Mazi Smith and Gervonn Dexter also played a lot of 1 tech and are versatile enough to play the 3 tech as well. 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by MrEpsYtown

[nosejob]

They have no DTs under contract for next year, so we have a need there. Question is...Do we spend our 6 picks across different positions where it's possible to make the 53?....or do we end up just stocking the P.S with poachable players?

[aristocrat]

defense was so vulnerable when jones didn't play so getting another guy is maybe my biggest need for this team tbh. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I'd like to see someone brought in as a 1T.  Phillips and Oliver are both 3T's even if phillips is built like a 1.  Settle is a nice rotational player, but legit none of our DTs are going to be here next season.  

[Beck Water]

14 minutes ago, Yantha said:

I'm just starting to scratch the surface on this question, but I have to say I'm majorly impressed with that Baylor dude....  Watch his brute strength in the highlight video.  A man amongst boys.  I actually feel bad for those Centers!  lol

 

Yantha, while you're scratching below the surface, it probably needs to be pointed out that the Bills play a 4-3, in which the "pure NT" role best maps to the 1TDT.

 

Those would be DaQuan Jones and Tim Settle.   Neither are under contract past this season.  Jones is 31 and Settle 26.

 

Overall, I would assess that Jones was a pleasant revelation and let us see what Star Lotulelei and Harrison Phillips should have been doing in previous years.  Tim Settle did injure his calf early in the season and was playing through it, but he did not at all measure up when he was asked to do so, and he saw his snaps slide to 25-35% until Jones was injured in the playoffs.

 

My point is that while the Bills do need to plan for the future on DL, it seems a bit misleading for this year to mention trading Oliver (who fills a different role, 3TDT, in McD's offense) or not mention that we in fact do seem to have a capable guy filling the 1TDT role for this season, in Jones.  An upgrade at backup would be good.

[MrEpsYtown]

It doesn't have to be a 350 lb plugger. This regime values versatility. This would do: 

 

 

 

[mrags]

20 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Yes, on either of these two please
There’s a strong chance that we might be playing with the smallest middle linebacker

This is what I find hilarious. It is true. 100%. But then you go to some of the draft threads or LB threads here and people want to draft LBs that are 230lbs. Bernard is only 225. And many here are wanting to get a guy that’s 230. And that may be a little bigger, but not much. We could just have Bernard eat a Large Spaghetti Parm from Chefs the night before and gain that for game time. 
 

Campbell or Sewell are the only 2 LBs I’m interested in for this draft. And I think Campbell is going to be too high of a pick. I’d take Sewell. 
 

29 minutes ago, Yantha said:

Change is coming in the 2023 season.  We will have a new DC, with a different philosophy, we've lost our starting MLB and questions remain as to who the starting linebackers will be.  I think it's fair to say that our DL depth is better than our LB depth, but another question has arisen.  "Should we trade Oliver?".

 

Other questions I've seen come up is IF Bernard is the next man up, will the DL need a Nose Tackle to eat up blocks and help Bernard play to his attributes/abilities?  I'll add that even IF we draft Campbell (or any other rookie MLB...), maybe a nose tackle would help the team overall anyways....  even if Tremaine was still here.

 

This thread is to discuss defensive schemes, and whether a pure Nose Tackle should be part of the conversation during this draft.  I'm listing profiles of some prospects that can be discussed here as well.

 

DT Siaki Ika, Baylor (335 lbs) - projected 3rd rounder

 

 

 

 

DT Keondre Coburn, Texas (332 lbs) - Projected 4th round

 

 

 

DT Brodrick Martin, W. Kentucky (330 lbs) - projected 6th round

Sorry, no highlight video....

 

Into the DTs available. Ika and Coburn are absolute monsters. If you can get either in the 4th round or Ika in the 3rd you are looking good. 
 

if they were to go with Mazi Smith if he made it to the 2nd round I wouldn’t be unhappy. 
 

and I also like Keeanu Benton in the 3rd round or later. He’s a little smaller at 309lbs. But compared to guys like Oliver he’s a beast. 

[Yantha]

2 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Yantha, while you're scratching below the surface, it probably needs to be pointed out that the Bills play a 4-3, in which the "pure NT" role best maps to the 1TDT.

 

Those would be DaQuan Jones and Tim Settle.   Neither are under contract past this season.  Jones is 31 and Settle 26.

 

Overall, I would assess that Jones was a pleasant revelation and let us see what Star Lotulelei and Harrison Phillips should have been doing in previous years.  Tim Settle did injure his calf early in the season and was playing through it, but he did not at all measure up when he was asked to do so, and he saw his snaps slide to 25-35% until Jones was injured in the playoffs.

 

My point is that while the Bills do need to plan for the future on DL, it seems a bit misleading for this year to mention trading Oliver (who fills a different role, 3TDT, in McD's offense) or not mention that we in fact do seem to have a capable guy filling the 1TDT role for this season, in Jones.  An upgrade at backup would be good.

 

Yep, I agree with everything you are saying here.  Just wondering if we will see a mix of different schemes that call for a different skill set.  The defense COULD look very different this year.  You never know what Beane/McD have planned....

[TOboy]

If we go DT early, I really hope it’s Mazi Smith. Dude is huge, immovable, and quick and agile for his size. His college production wasn’t outstanding, but all the traits are there for him to bust out in the NFL. At worst he should be able to take up 2 blockers in the run game. And it’s possible he develops a little bit of a pass rush. 
 

Edit - And as I typed someone else posted his video above lol

Edited April 10, 2023 by TOboy

[MrEpsYtown]

Just now, TOboy said:

If we go DT early, I really hope it’s Mazi Smith. Dude is huge, immovable, and quick and agile for his size. His college production wasn’t outstanding, but all the traits are there for him to bust out in the NFL. At worst he should be able to take up 2 blockers in the run game. And it’s possible he develops a little bit of a pass rush. 

 

He opened things up for Ojabo and Hutchinson to have a all the production they had. He's a beast. My draft crush. 

[The Wiz]

32 minutes ago, Chas56 said:

They need at least one stout DT. Call him whatever, but they need to get stronger up the middle. That includes MLB. I liked Edmunds side-to-side, but he wasn’t great at hitting gaps hard. Actually having 3 LBs would help cover the sides without Edmunds allowing a MLB to fill holes with a big man holding ground and Oliver helping do that, too. 

Edmunds was good at hitting the gaps hard.  Problem was it was usually the wrong gap.

[TheBeaneBandit]

I support this message. 

[Chandler#81]

Wasted thread, imo, while McDermott is HC. He’s strictly a 4-3 guy. No sense dreaming about alternatives.

[mrags]

42 minutes ago, Yantha said:

I'm just starting to scratch the surface on this question, but I have to say I'm majorly impressed with that Baylor dude....  Watch his brute strength in the highlight video.  A man amongst boys.  I actually feel bad for those Centers!  lol

Both are really good imo. Exactly what we need and are missing on the DL. I’d say the best way to describe Koburn is violent. But he also plays with a finesse and quickness. Getting out of blocks. He has some moves that get him out of tight spaces. You can see it in that vid you posted. There’s like 2 plays more than halfway through it where he’s doubled and somehow slides through a hole that just shouldn’t be there. Yet he’s 330+. It’s not natural. 

7 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

Edmunds was good at hitting the gaps hard.  Problem was it was usually the wrong gap.

Or 5 yards downfield 

[mjt328]

Depends on what you mean by a Nose Tackle.

 

Traditionally, the NT position is a 0-Tech defensive lineman in a 3-4 scheme.  Since Sean McDermott does not run this alignment and probably never will, I don't see us using any resources on a player with this skillset.

 

Now I have occasionally seen the 1-Tech lineman (4-3 scheme) also referred to as a Nose Tackle, although that's not the most commonly used positional term.  This is the spot played by DaQuan Jones on our defense.  Personally I would like to sign Jones to an extension and keep him as the starter.  But I wouldn't be opposed to adding a backup on Day 3.

 

[mrags]

1 minute ago, mjt328 said:

Depends on what you mean by a Nose Tackle.

 

Traditionally, the NT position is a 0-Tech defensive lineman in a 3-4 scheme.  Since Sean McDermott does not run this alignment and probably never will, I don't see us using any resources on a player with this skillset.

 

Now I have occasionally seen the 1-Tech lineman (4-3 scheme) also referred to as a Nose Tackle, although that's not the most commonly used positional term.  This is the spot played by DaQuan Jones on our defense.  Personally I would like to sign Jones to an extension and keep him as the starter.  But I wouldn't be opposed to adding a backup on Day 3.

 

At the very least they will need to draft someone as none of the DTs on the current roster are signed past this season. You could go anyway you’d like with the draft. And go with a replacement for Jones, or Oliver. Or a hybrid of both. Really anyone over 305lb could do either position in this defense. Assuming the rest of the traits are there. Oliver is way too small for either position imo and should be more like a DE in a 3-4. Or next to someone who’s an absolute monster in the 1T

[Yantha]

10 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Wasted thread, imo, while McDermott is HC. He’s strictly a 4-3 guy. No sense dreaming about alternatives.

 

There's some truth to that.  McD does have a history of the 4-3 dating back to Carolina, carried over to the Bills.  But even in a 4-3, having a bigger DT gives versatility.  Defensive Ends in a 4-3, depending on their measurables will play on the line or off ball.  Von Miller is that type of player.  A hybrid DE/OLB.  When you have a stout DT that COMMANDS double teams allows your Ends to drop back if needed.  

 

Bottom line is you need the versatility of personnel to make it all work.

12 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

Depends on what you mean by a Nose Tackle.

 

Traditionally, the NT position is a 0-Tech defensive lineman in a 3-4 scheme.  Since Sean McDermott does not run this alignment and probably never will, I don't see us using any resources on a player with this skillset.

 

Now I have occasionally seen the 1-Tech lineman (4-3 scheme) also referred to as a Nose Tackle, although that's not the most commonly used positional term.  This is the spot played by DaQuan Jones on our defense.  Personally I would like to sign Jones to an extension and keep him as the starter.  But I wouldn't be opposed to adding a backup on Day 3.

 

 

This.

What I mean moreso is a bigger bodied 4-3 DT that commands double teams on most snaps.  Allows for more flexibility at DE.

[John from Riverside]

They don’t need a zero tech nose tackle. However, a one tech that can push the pocket would really help this team you can keep those waves rolling with daQuan Jones.

[ndirish1978]

I like Keanu Benton, Gervon Dexter and Zach Pickens, in the 2nd - 4th

[Yantha]

You know.... I'm not going to die on this Nose Tackle hill....  I love big physical DT's, but looking back at McD's Panthers' roster (that includes Luke Kuechly), the DL had starters around 310-315 lbs (no "nose" measurables....).  If McD's influencing Beane, and we know he is.....  I think that Nose tackles will not be a major focus in this draft.  Love the players though.

 

What this exercise has taught me though, is that Beane/McD have to be thinking that Campbell is the closest thing to building out this roster with a "Kuechly"-esque player that is currently missing on the roster.

 

I'm willing to BET that Campbell will be our "reach" in this draft.  (not to hijack my own thread LOL).

 

Panthers Defense when McD ran the show:

 

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Right or wrong this regime prioritizes position flexibility and movement over size. I'm not even saying that is wrong, but that philosophy gets you burned at times. This defense over multiple seasons under McD gets steamrolled  by physical teams. Then there are times where they hold up against the run quite well. 

All that said, I would favor a big DT and big MLB. Others disagree. DT takes years to develop. Bills SB window is now. MLB and Edge can start right away. I'd favor drafting a MLB and/or edge this year and getting a veteran DT in free agency next year. 

Top 4 picks need to be 3 offense and 1 defense in no particular order. Getting Poyer and probably Hamlin back and the free agent safety buys you another year before needing to address safety in the draft.

[Kaenon]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

It doesn't have to be a 350 lb plugger. This regime values versatility. This would do: 

 

 

 

I'm on the Mazi Smith train.

If Oliver is gone, he plugs into his role with similar play style.

[MrEpsYtown]

54 minutes ago, Yantha said:

You know.... I'm not going to die on this Nose Tackle hill....  I love big physical DT's, but looking back at McD's Panthers' roster (that includes Luke Kuechly), the DL had starters around 310-315 lbs (no "nose" measurables....).  If McD's influencing Beane, and we know he is.....  I think that Nose tackles will not be a major focus in this draft.  Love the players though.

 

What this exercise has taught me though, is that Beane/McD have to be thinking that Campbell is the closest thing to building out this roster with a "Kuechly"-esque player that is currently missing on the roster.

 

I'm willing to BET that Campbell will be our "reach" in this draft.  (not to hijack my own thread LOL).

 

Panthers Defense when McD ran the show:

 

 

 

 

Solia was a massive nose tackle. And Star was a nose tackle with pretty good size. 

[Yantha]

9 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Solia was a massive nose tackle. And Star was a nose tackle with pretty good size. 

Yeah I checked out Star, and thought he was much heavier.  315 I think?

[The Jokeman]

We need more of a penetrating DT more than a traditional nose, see Aaron Darnold, Warren Sapp, John Randle or even a better all around version of Jordan Phillips type. As Da'Quan Jones does a solid job keeping offensive lineman off LBs to make tackles. Yet as eluded we don't have anyone under contract after this season. The guy I'd love for us to land is Keeanu Benton who should be there in Round 2. As he's strong at the point and showed in Senior Bowl practices he's got some speed that didn't use as much with the Badgers. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by The Jokeman

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Yantha said:

Yeah I checked out Star, and thought he was much heavier.  315 I think?

 

6-2, 315 is equal to 6-4, 335 when it comes to height length and leverage at the NT position. So Star was compact. 

[aristocrat]

 

[BigAl2526]

Mazi Smith is certainly an intriguing pick.  The question is would the bills spend a first round pick to get him.  That's what it will take, of course.  I have my doubts that Buffalo would pull the trigger on a DT that soon.  Basically, IMO, any 1 technique that they acquire either through the draft or elsewhere would be hedging a bet on Tim Settle living up to the promise he should before Buffalo signed him a year ago.  The injury messed up last season for him, but I don't think the Bills have given up on him.

[mjt328]

4 hours ago, mrags said:

At the very least they will need to draft someone as none of the DTs on the current roster are signed past this season. You could go anyway you’d like with the draft. And go with a replacement for Jones, or Oliver. Or a hybrid of both. Really anyone over 305lb could do either position in this defense. Assuming the rest of the traits are there. Oliver is way too small for either position imo and should be more like a DE in a 3-4. Or next to someone who’s an absolute monster in the 1T

 

The situation at DT is easily remedied.

 

Sign DaQuan Jones to a 2-3 year extension, and the 1-Tech spot is completely set for a couple years.  All you need is depth.

 

Ed Oliver, Jordan Phillips, Tim Settle are an adequate rotation at 3-Tech for 2023.  If a nice prospect falls in our lap in the draft, then someone will be expendable.  If not, we can worry about it next season.

 

[Warriorspikes51]

Yes. Trade Ed and draft the biggest widest monster you can find in rounds 3-5 that can immediately play and eat space.

 

[mrags]

5 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

The situation at DT is easily remedied.

 

Sign DaQuan Jones to a 2-3 year extension, and the 1-Tech spot is completely set for a couple years.  All you need is depth.

 

Ed Oliver, Jordan Phillips, Tim Settle are an adequate rotation at 3-Tech for 2023.  If a nice prospect falls in our lap in the draft, then someone will be expendable.  If not, we can worry about it next season.

 

I mean, Jones is 31. It’s crazy to think his play will continue moving forward  to even what it was last season. And after this year we would still have nobody at DT beside an even older Jones. 
 

fwiw I’m not saying to not extend Jones. I’m just arguing that even if you did that you still need help at DT. 

[billsfan89]

The Bills definitely need a D.Jones heir apparent/backup. Jones is older and his type of impact run stuffer is critical to the defense. 

[Bills Fan in MD]

A cheaper option would be to try and convince Fred Smerlas or Jeff Wright to come out of retirement.

[freddyjj]

My guess is Bills get some extra picks and go after Roy and a 1T too.

[3rdand12]

7 hours ago, Yantha said:

I'm just starting to scratch the surface on this question, but I have to say I'm majorly impressed with that Baylor dude....  Watch his brute strength in the highlight video.  A man amongst boys.  I actually feel bad for those Centers!  lol

Conceptually , i feel this would be a great tweak for the Bills Defense.

 They may have tried before but were less successful. Settle and Jones helped against the run game and I hope no one questions that.

 Give the new MLB some time/space to read and react and play a step deeper for the sake of under coverages.

Hello Campbell  (lol ? )
 

Give me two Ted Washingtons in the middle all day long. You can replace Edmunds wingspan in passing lanes with two big boys just getting hand up while standing there as immovable objects.

So yes.

All of them !

[atlbillsfan1975]

7 hours ago, aristocrat said:

defense was so vulnerable when jones didn't play so getting another guy is maybe my biggest need for this team tbh. 

Honestly, the last couple years when the 1-Tech has been playing well the entire defense looked different. Hope they extend Jones and take one in the first couple rounds.