Joe Marino Locked on Bills regarding DL

[Royale with Cheese]

Something really interesting when he researched every DL with a minimum of 8 games played and to the conclusion, the Bills are middle of the pack in rotation.

#1 is the Eagles and #2 is the 49ers with the amount of rotation.

 

Also:

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2023/2/4/23585330/eagles-fletcher-cox-super-bowl-health-defensive-line-rotation-jalen-hurts-respect-nick-sirianni

 

https://www.knbr.com/2020/01/23/49ers-notebook-saleh-on-shanahans-leadership-style-the-d-line-rotation-and-a-raccoon-on-meth/

This was when Saleh was with the 49ers but he uses rotation with the Jets too.

 

“We have a philosophy to roll with eight on defense on the defensive line,” Saleh said. “You want to come at them at waves. You want to stay fresh. You want to keep going. All gas, keep them rolling, so they don’t pace themselves. A lot of times you get so stuck with playing your best four all the time that those guys understand they’re going to be out there for a while so they pace themselves.

We don’t want them pacing themselves. We want them rolling. So, those next four are every bit as important as the first four. And, one, we’ve still got to play great football when they’re on the football field. And, two, it allows those guys a break so when you get to those critical situations of two minute and third down, your four horses can be out there and be fresh so they can go get the quarterback.”

Saleh said the goal is to “steal” around two dozen snaps for that starting group each game.

 

https://www.newyorkjets.com/news/robert-saleh-on-the-math-that-leads-to-a-killer-defensive-line-rotation

 

"Whether they're run-stopping or jumping out of their shoes and pass-rushing, there's a level of fatigue that's associated with how we play," Ulbrich said. "We don't catch blocks, we don't read blocks — things are on our terms. When you play like that, with your hair on fire, with the energy and the strain that we demand of them, asking them to play any more than 35 snaps, I think, is detrimental to their health and the quality of play."

 

"We ask our D-line to do a lot from an attack standpoint, so physically it is hard, unless you're an absolute freakazoid like Aaron Donald, who can go forever," he said. "It's really not a 30-35 snap count, it's more of a percentage. There are obviously variables, but you're trying to hit a 70 percent mark. There are 60 to 65 snaps on average for a defensive team, so you're looking at 40 to 45 snaps. ... In a perfect scenario where we're winning games, 30 to 35 of those snaps are against the pass.

"Let's say we start the game, and I'll use Quinnen [Williams] as an example. He rolls out on first down, second down, they convert on third down. Well, get Quinnen off the field. Then he's not on the field for first down, second down. Third down, he's back on and we get off the field. In that scenario, he played four of six snaps, 67 percent."

The point of the math, both simple and advanced, Saleh explained, is to optimize the Jets linemen's input in the rotation that he, Ulbrich and DL coach Aaron Whitecotton began building last season.

"If you went on average, it's probably in that 70 percent range," the head coach said. "I think that's what we were hitting in San Francisco with DeForest Buckner, [Nick] Bosa, [Arik] Armstead. It's not a perfect science. If you're playing 90 snaps in a game, you're going to be in the 60-snap range.

"You're just trying to pace these guys so they're as fresh as possible when crunch time hits, those third downs, those two minutes when we need a play."

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[JGMcD2]

Awesome. Thank you for sharing! 
 

 

Shocking really, people on this message board complained about our D-Line rotation but didn’t look across the league to see what they were doing. 

[uticaclub]

4 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Awesome. Thank you for sharing! 
 

 

Shocking really, people on this message board complained about our D-Line rotation but didn’t look across the league to see what they were doing. 

The rotation was never the issue, the results and lack of pressure and penetration is the issue. If everyone we drafted or signed for the DL were effective it would be great, but other than Miller every pick and signing has been a complete miss or JAG.

Edited February 28, 2023 by uticaclub

[MrEpsYtown]

Yeah I think the rotation works when there is little to no drop off in play. We don’t have that here. 
 

I assure you that Nick Bosa and Hassan Reddick are on the field for all critical third downs regardless of whose turn it is. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by MrEpsYtown

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, MrEpsYtown said:

Yeah I think the rotation works when there is little to no drop off in play. We don’t have that here. 
 

I assure you that Nick Bosa and Hassan Reddick are on the field for all critical third downs regardless of whose turn it is. 

 

We did the same thing.  Miller and Oliver would rotate in on 3rd down a lot if they weren't in on 1st/2nd.  

[MrEpsYtown]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We did the same thing.  Miller and Oliver would rotate in on 3rd down a lot if they weren't in on 1st/2nd.  

I’d like to see more Rousseau in that situation as well

[RyanC883]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We did the same thing.  Miller and Oliver would rotate in on 3rd down a lot if they weren't in on 1st/2nd.  

 

Oliver, not a difference maker without Miller. 

[MJS]

I would like to see more stunts and more manufactured pressure, personally. I have no issue with a rotation. They just need to be more effective, especially in the big games against big opponents.

[Bookie Man]

After Von went down, we were left with a bunch of JAGS. We need guys like Feltcher Cox in our rotation.

[Royale with Cheese]

12 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I’d like to see more Rousseau in that situation as well

 

I think Miller going down hurt Rousseau the most.

12 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

The problem is the resources they’ve used on the rotation and the ROI has been poor…. No issues with a rotation, but they need to find contributors in later rounds at this point/better FA finds for that rotation because it’s doing the rest of your team a disservice by putting other positions on the back burner. 

 

Scott, you were very vocal that DL rotations are stupid.

 

I'm not fully convinced it's not a philosophical issue.  I think we make our DL too disciplined or something.  Hughes had the most sacks since 2014 last year with the Texans.  He's 8 years older since 2014 and had his best statistical season.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[GolfandBills]

Joe Marion lol

[Mango]

I have little issue with the number of DL we have 

I do have an issues with the fact that under Beane the Buffalo Bills have been one of the three most expensive lines in the NFL in 2019, 2020, 2021, and will be again in 2023.

 

All on top of also investing 2x firsts, 2x seconds, and a third round pick. 
 

The value has been horrendous. If we were a top 3 line we would have no issue. But instead we just won’t sign anybody from the 2018 draft because we don’t have the money. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Mango

[buffblue]

Just now, Mango said:

I have little issue with the number of DL we have 

I do have an issues with the fact that under Beane the Buffalo Bills have been one of the three most expensive lines in the NFL in 2019, 2020, 2021, and will be again in 2023.

 

All on top of also investing 2x firsts, 2x seconds, and a third round pick. 
 

The value has been horrendous. 

ROI is virtually negative. Basham, Epenesa, Jefferson, Butler, Lotulelei, Oliver, Settle, Lawson, etc. Not one of these guys was/is even close to a difference maker.

 

It's really discouraging. Our regime has made numerous poor mistakes and misappropriated assets to such an extreme degree in one direction while still having little to show for it.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

36 minutes ago, GolfandBills said:

Joe Marion lol

I was testing you.

[BillsVet]

I have never understood why OBD insists on this rotation, uses high picks to staff it, then uses those picks (Basham, Epenesa, Oliver, Rousseau) no more than on 50% of the snaps.  

 

It's disjointed, ineffective, and no better than equal cost to benefit.  

 

If your team needs this rotation, spreads snaps out evenly for DT's and DE's to keep them under 65%, but continues prioritizing this as their QB is inked long-term, something's gotta give eventually.  It's not the same as what SF, PHI, CIN, or KC is doing.    

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I’d like to see more Rousseau in that situation as well

 

 

I didn't watch that segment because Greg Rousseau played just 49% and Von Miller played just 61% of the snaps when they played...........Nick Bosa played 74%.

 

I don't care a lot about how much the Bills rotate their non-stars versus other teams.

 

 

 

 

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Scott, you were very vocal that DL rotations are stupid.

 

 

 

 

👍

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

Oliver, not a difference maker without Miller. 

 

Oliver is undersized as a DT, even as a 3T.

 

At the time he was drafted the Bills brass overlooked some of the classic measurables for defensive tackle and were kind of star-struck by the athleticism, but there were some warning signs of where Oliver landed and whether he could overcome those measurables that scouts look for in most DTs:

 

Height  6' 1⅞"          10th percentile

Weight  287 lbs.        52nd  percentile

Wingspan 77 ⅜"       14th  percentile

Arm Length 31 ¾"      7th  percentile

Hand Size 9 ¼"         10th  percentile

 

It is less about the DE's in the rotation with Oliver and more about the DT that is playing the 1 tech next to him.

 

If that guy forces teams to pay attention to him and forces the double-teams and can get some push while he is at it, Oliver can be disruptive. He does a good job 1:1 against most interior linemen. He can beat them with his speed off the snap, his athleticism, and great leverage.  If teams can handle our 1-tech then Oliver gets pushed around and swallowed up by the double-teams - he is basically nullified.

 

That is why we tend to see games where he disappears - you have to look at who is playing next to him and how well that guy is doing.

 

Oliver shined best last season with Jones playing next to him being disruptive from that 1-tech spot, but that is probably not what the Bills envisioned when they selected him #9 overall. They thought they were getting a guy who could be a difference maker on a more consistent basis.

 

Oliver is a good player mind you, but he will always be measured for being a top 10 pick.

[uticaclub]

Remember when Chris Kelsey was the poster child for a terrible DE, now we have an entire unit of Chris Kelsey’s.

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, uticaclub said:

The rotation was never the issue, the results and lack of pressure and penetration is the issue. If everyone we drafted or signed for the DL were effective it would be great, but other than Miller every pick and signing has been a complete miss or JAG.

I disagreed that Groot has been a jag or a mess

 

He just doesn’t have help if von isn’t there

[nosejob]

13 hours ago, MJS said:

I would like to see more stunts and more manufactured pressure, personally. I have no issue with a rotation. They just need to be more effective, especially in the big games against big opponents.

I saw some of the things the Niners would do like pulling an end around a DT allowing an inside rush lane. Here I think we would benefit by putting Shaq and Boogie inside once in a while and basically play a 5-2-4.  Playing that zone nickel takes away a lot of flexibility to do different things. It's old, stale and very predictable.....just like the coach.

Edited February 28, 2023 by nosejob

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, ßookie_tech said:

After Von went down, we were left with a bunch of JAGS. We need guys like Feltcher Cox in our rotation.

 

 

Cox is a DT. And DT DaQuan Jones is no JAG, not by any definition.

 

We've got several guys who aren't JAGs even when Von is out, Ed's no JAG, nor is Rousseau, but Von's the only one who's a consistently special pass rusher.

 

When Von was in, all of the others were better and more effective. Typical for a terrific pass rusher.

 

Having both him and DaQuan out against the Bengals was a terrible blow.

 

And for what it's worth, there aren't many teams that have two consistently special pass rushers.

 

Marino's basic idea, that DL platoons are the commonest way to go these days, has been pretty obvious for a while. Bills fans who don't like them had better get used to them or find a team that won't be so irritating to them.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Remember when Chris Kelsey was the poster child for a terrible DE, now we have an entire unit of Chris Kelsey’s.

 

 

Kelsay was never a terrible DE. He just wasn't a special pass rusher. He was a good player, but wasn't a Bruce Smith or a Schobel, the last two DEs Bills fans were remembering and measuring Kelsay against.

 

And therefore despite being a pretty good player, he was the whipping boy for Bills fans.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

33 minutes ago, nosejob said:

I saw some of the things the Niners would do like pulling and end around a DT allowing an inside rush lane. Here I think we would benefit by putting Shaq and Boogie inside once in a while and basically play a 5-2-4.  Playing that zone nickel takes away a lot of flexibility to do different things. It's old, stale and very predictable.....just like the coach.

 

 

Yeah, look at how that flexible Niners defense did against the Eagles. 

 

Sometimes good defenses have bad games, most particularly when they suffer from many key injuries.

[gonzo1105]

The problem is the first wave is a 3 footer without Miller and the 2nd wave is a puddle after all the money invested 

[uticaclub]

40 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Kelsay was never a terrible DE. He just wasn't a special pass rusher. He was a good player, but wasn't a Bruce Smith or a Schobel, the last two DEs Bills fans were remembering and measuring Kelsay against.

 

And therefore despite being a pretty good player, he was the whipping boy for Bills fans.

 

 

Kelsey started for 10 years and had like 30 career sacks. He had a great game against Tebow but other than that was consistently pushed around having fans wondering why he was on the field and kept getting extensions. As soon as he was cut from the Bills he retired because no other team had any interest in bring in the vet. 

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

Kelsey started for 10 years and had like 30 career sacks. He had a great game against Tebow but other than that was consistently pushed around having fans wondering why he was on the field and kept getting extensions. As soon as he was cut from the Bills he retired because no other team had any interest in bring in the vet. 

 

Kelsay wasn't cut and that wasn't the reason he retired.  

[Don Otreply]

It is more a DC problem than a player problem, imo we have sufficient  talent, it is just not being schemed for success.  LF is far to rigid in his scheming and prefers contain vs an attacking style Defense, that works reasonably well against the average to lesser teams, hence our regular season record, but when it comes to playing the elite teams in post season games his scheme is just to predictable, and good HCs and their coordinators have shown that they know how to beat his scheme, three seasons in a row now…, and yet he still pretty much refuses to make adjustments to counter the best teams, and here we are in discussion about this yet again. 
 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited February 28, 2023 by Don Otreply

[uticaclub]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Kelsay wasn't cut and that wasn't the reason he retired.  

You are right he wasn’t cut. He retired immediately after Marrone was hired and the rumors were he was going to be cut so he retired instead. Either way, he was that generation's AJE, maybe slightly worst given the rules then and now. Not every player is going to be Smith, Schobel, or even Jerry Hughes, but I remember questioning his play was something that brought fans together

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

12 hours ago, uticaclub said:

The rotation was never the issue, the results and lack of pressure and penetration is the issue. If everyone we drafted or signed for the DL were effective it would be great, but other than Miller every pick and signing has been a complete miss or JAG.

 

I thought Daquan jones was really disruptive.  Rousseau isn't flashy but he's a solid defensive end, i felt like he wasn't the same after he returned from his injury.

 

Oliver is a good-not-great defensive tackle, motor and quickness help with being undersized but I personally wouldn't commit to him long-term.  Phillips was playing really well, then he hurt his shoulder.  

 

As for the ends - Basham is the biggest disappointment as he basically lost his job to lawson.  Epenesa isn't very good as a run defender so that will always limit his usage.  

[BillsShredder83]

12 hours ago, ßookie_tech said:

After Von went down, we were left with a bunch of JAGS. We need guys like Feltcher Cox in our rotation.

one little typo really changes a wholeeeeeeee lot here lol

[Bookie Man]

4 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

one little typo really changes a wholeeeeeeee lot here lol

At least someone got it

[uticaclub]

8 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I disagreed that Groot has been a jag or a mess

 

He just doesn’t have help if von isn’t there

I want to like Groot, he hit a rookie wall in 21 and he disappeared around the same time in 22, which was right when Miller got hurt.

 

Year 3 is big for him, he needs to take a step up

[Don Otreply]

9 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I disagreed that Groot has been a jag or a mess

 

He just doesn’t have help if von isn’t there

This has been correct, but the root cause is play design and scheming, are you say that Basham, Epenesa, et al; are they not used to their best effect? 

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Don Otreply said:

This has been correct, but the root cause is play design and scheming, are you say that Basham, Epenesa, et al; are they not used to their best effect? 

Well, Don we’re about to find out

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

You are right he wasn’t cut. He retired immediately after Marrone was hired and the rumors were he was going to be cut so he retired instead. Either way, he was that generation's AJE, maybe slightly worst given the rules then and now. Not every player is going to be Smith, Schobel, or even Jerry Hughes, but I remember questioning his play was something that brought fans together

 

I had my complaints about Kelsay and wanted more.  He was a poor man's Phil Hansen but without Bruce Smith on the other side.  He was an okay player.

 

He wasn't going to be cut.  Here's why he retired.

 

The decision came this week after Kelsay spent months wavering on his future. Rather than keep the Bills guessing, he traveled from his offseason home in Nebraska to personally inform general manager Buddy Nix at the team's facility in Orchard Park.

"As I kind of went back and forth on it, I believe if you think about retirement that much, you're already retired," Kelsay said. "So I'm happy with the decision and look forward to the next chapter of my life."

The thought of retirement first entered Kelsay's mind after he tore a ligament in his neck during practice. He missed seven of Buffalo's final eight games, and finished on the injured reserve list.

Despite being cleared by team doctors last month, Kelsay was concerned about his health.

"I did not want to leave the game broke down," he said.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2013/02/28/chris-kelsay-buffalo-bills-retires

[JohnNord]

14 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Something really interesting when he researched every DL with a minimum of 8 games played and to the conclusion, the Bills are middle of the pack in rotation.

#1 is the Eagles and #2 is the 49ers with the amount of rotation.

 

Also:

https://www.bleedinggreennation.com/2023/2/4/23585330/eagles-fletcher-cox-super-bowl-health-defensive-line-rotation-jalen-hurts-respect-nick-sirianni

 

https://www.knbr.com/2020/01/23/49ers-notebook-saleh-on-shanahans-leadership-style-the-d-line-rotation-and-a-raccoon-on-meth/

This was when Saleh was with the 49ers but he uses rotation with the Jets too.

 

“We have a philosophy to roll with eight on defense on the defensive line,” Saleh said. “You want to come at them at waves. You want to stay fresh. You want to keep going. All gas, keep them rolling, so they don’t pace themselves. A lot of times you get so stuck with playing your best four all the time that those guys understand they’re going to be out there for a while so they pace themselves.

We don’t want them pacing themselves. We want them rolling. So, those next four are every bit as important as the first four. And, one, we’ve still got to play great football when they’re on the football field. And, two, it allows those guys a break so when you get to those critical situations of two minute and third down, your four horses can be out there and be fresh so they can go get the quarterback.”

Saleh said the goal is to “steal” around two dozen snaps for that starting group each game.

 

https://www.newyorkjets.com/news/robert-saleh-on-the-math-that-leads-to-a-killer-defensive-line-rotation

 

"Whether they're run-stopping or jumping out of their shoes and pass-rushing, there's a level of fatigue that's associated with how we play," Ulbrich said. "We don't catch blocks, we don't read blocks — things are on our terms. When you play like that, with your hair on fire, with the energy and the strain that we demand of them, asking them to play any more than 35 snaps, I think, is detrimental to their health and the quality of play."

 

"We ask our D-line to do a lot from an attack standpoint, so physically it is hard, unless you're an absolute freakazoid like Aaron Donald, who can go forever," he said. "It's really not a 30-35 snap count, it's more of a percentage. There are obviously variables, but you're trying to hit a 70 percent mark. There are 60 to 65 snaps on average for a defensive team, so you're looking at 40 to 45 snaps. ... In a perfect scenario where we're winning games, 30 to 35 of those snaps are against the pass.

"Let's say we start the game, and I'll use Quinnen [Williams] as an example. He rolls out on first down, second down, they convert on third down. Well, get Quinnen off the field. Then he's not on the field for first down, second down. Third down, he's back on and we get off the field. In that scenario, he played four of six snaps, 67 percent."

The point of the math, both simple and advanced, Saleh explained, is to optimize the Jets linemen's input in the rotation that he, Ulbrich and DL coach Aaron Whitecotton began building last season.

"If you went on average, it's probably in that 70 percent range," the head coach said. "I think that's what we were hitting in San Francisco with DeForest Buckner, [Nick] Bosa, [Arik] Armstead. It's not a perfect science. If you're playing 90 snaps in a game, you're going to be in the 60-snap range.

"You're just trying to pace these guys so they're as fresh as possible when crunch time hits, those third downs, those two minutes when we need a play."

 

 

My problem has never been the defensive rotation as much as it had been the players who play in that rotation, and what the Bills spent to get those players.  You can find that kind of production from cheap FA’s - not 1st and second round draft picks 

[msw2112]

I have to believe that coaching and scheme has something (a lot) to do with the problem.  Given their draft status, at least a couple of Oliver, Rousseau, Epenesa, Basham, Lawson, etc. should be very good players.  I don't believe that any of these guys were a reach by the Bills - they were all drafted around or below where they were projected to go.  (Terrell Bernard, that was a reach.)  Hughes having success in Houston is also indicative of something.  I don't know if it's scheme, technique, or what, but the Bills are just not getting great production out of guys that have talent.  It's highly unlikely that the Bills swung and missed on that many draft picks.

[bigduke6]

DLine was never the same after Von and Phillips went down.   early in the season both were tearing it up.  Phillips played sparingly most of the season mostly while injured.  really think that last season came down to alot off the field adversity and injuries to key guys.   seemed like the team was just spent at the end.