Tremaine Must Remain

[DrDawkinstein]

27 minutes ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

Both Milano (my fave) and Edmunds are thriving behind the new line.  Does not mean the new line is what makes them good, maybe the old line kept them from showing out - we have been soft against the run since before Star and our linebackers were never kept clean before.  Daquan Jones and Tim Settle make a big difference, for the linebackers I think the big guys in the middle have mattered as much or more than the emergence of Groot and the signing of Von Miller.  Team game, and Milano and Edmunds are excelling at their part of "team".

 

Milano was good before the new DL tho. If Edmunds had been playing at the same level Milano has the last 4 years, he'd already be re-signed.

Edited October 4, 2022 by DrDawkinstein

[FilthyBeast]

I still think it's a big risk signing a guy like Edmonds long term who is now magically breaking out in his contract year.

 

But I do think his play is directly tied to this defensive line being the best unit that McD and Frazier have fielded during their time here. So that's the question do you want to keep Edmunds long term and pay him a big contact knowing that he could revert back to his lackluster play behind defensive lines that always won't be as good in the future?

[MarlinTheMagician]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

First, great thread title.

 

Second, I too have become a believer in TE.

 

Third, if money wasn't a problem, he is definitely worth keeping due to his play.

 

So, it comes down to money.  As things go right now it just seems Beane won't be able to swing a long-term contract.

BUT none of us know what the cap will be in 2 years.  I will repeat that, none of us know.

 

The only way I see this happening is building Edmunds's contract with a 5-year term.  As much as we all laugh about his age it is the

way to make it work.  Having a cheap cap hit in 2023 with an option to do a restructure of some Base Salary in 2024.

This will only happen if Beane knows where the cap is going, and he can structure a workable contract with Edmunds and his agent.

 

I do think Edmunds wants to stay in Buffalo.  It would mean that he takes a little less per year IF he wants to stay. 

First, thanks for the shout-out.  If we want him, I believe we have plenty of cap flex in the deals of others that we are not going to walk away from and there can afford to restructure (Allen, White, Miler, etc).  I hope.  

[DrDawkinstein]

26 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

He is playing better this year than at any point last year. Opinions and evaluations are allowed to change and evolve. That's why you pick up his 5th year option and see what happens. Right now he is trending towards a franchise tag or contract extension. Milano was a popular choice for parting ways to afford other players but he is playing at an elite level. 

Odd men out here are going to be Hyde, Singletary, Epenesa, and maybe Morse. Poyer probably gets a 2 year extension soon with how well he is playing. They will restructure White.  Very unlikely but if he doesn't recover from his injury he could be a cap casualty with Dane, Elam, and Benford being cheaper options. Heresy I know but you can't pay everyone and inured guys like Hyde and White get released all the time.

 

They then draft safety and OL next year. 

 

I agree with most of your post except the Franchise Tag part. LB tag number is $18M. No way. If Beane was willing to pay that, he'd be re-signed already.

[MarlinTheMagician]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

I still think it's a big risk signing a guy like Edmonds long term who is now magically breaking out in his contract year.

 

But I do think his play is directly tied to this defensive line being the best unit that McD and Frazier have fielded during their time here. So that's the question do you want to keep Edmunds long term and pay him a big contact knowing that he could revert back to his lackluster play behind defensive lines that always won't be as good in the future?

Stay stout up the middle and a reversion never needs to happen.  In my (regrettably, too long) experience, once It clicks for a player they rarely revert all other things being equal (unequal things being health, age and the players around the player).  Edmunds checks the boxes on age and availabliltiy/injury, so just don't field a weak interior line and he will continue to excel.

[Bangarang]

6 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

You are just showing how little you actually understand about the Bills scheme and what it's predicated on.

Or maybe Edmunds isn’t as good as you think he is?

 

Leslie Frazier publicly stated he wants to see Edmunds make more splash plays. Maybe he’s wrong and just doesn’t understand the defense and what Edmunds does on the field?

[Bruffalo]

Edmunds is fine, but I'd like to see more investment in the offense. 

[GoBills808]

38 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

I said at the time that if Knox’s usage increases then the contract becomes a bargain. 
 

If we just get more of the same but less TDs then it’s a garbage deal. Beane gambled that the TD production would stay the same but the receptions and yards would increase. So far it’s been the opposite. 

There's just no way Beane gambled on Knox's TD production remaining the same. I mean he had 9 TDs on 49 catches.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, MarlinTheMagician said:

Stay stout up the middle and a reversion never needs to happen.  In my (regrettably, too long) experience, once It clicks for a player they rarely revert all other things being equal (unequal things being health, age and the players around the player).  Edmunds checks the boxes on age and availabliltiy/injury, so just don't field a weak interior line and he will continue to excel.

 

Anyone we're looking to pay close to $20M/yr should be able to stand out and be a star on his own. If he is only producing at a good-to-great level with a stable of pricey DL in front of him who we also have to pay big bucks, then he isnt worth that money.

[billsfanmd07]

I forget Milano numbers, but I feel bad because Edmonds may want twice what Milano took to stay here. Animosity could pop up as I don't see TE taking a home town discount.     

[Patrick Duffy]

Don't know how it will play out, but he certainly is making a case for himself so far. Glad to see it

[Bangarang]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

There's just no way Beane gambled on Knox's TD production remaining the same. I mean he had 9 TDs on 49 catches.

I didn’t say he gambled on his TD production remaining the same with the same usage. 

[Freddie's Dead]

1 hour ago, DJB said:

Oooh an Edwards thread, been a while since we had one of those 

 

It has been, Trent Edwards has been gone over a decade now.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Freddie's Dead

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, billsfanmd07 said:

I forget Milano numbers, but I feel bad because Edmonds may want twice what Milano took to stay here. Animosity could pop up as I don't see TE taking a home town discount.     

Exactly, we shouldn't pay Edmunds because it might hurt Milano's feelings.

[MarlinTheMagician]

5 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Or maybe Edmunds isn’t as good as you think he is?

 

Leslie Frazier publicly stated he wants to see Edmunds make more splash plays. Maybe he’s wrong and just doesn’t understand the defense and what Edmunds does on the field?

Frazier wanting him to take a next step and generate more splash plays does not mean Frazier does not realize his value or doesn't want him for the defense.  I have seen him speak out strongly for Tremaine several times.

[Freddie's Dead]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Gives you a pretty great view of him pattern matching receivers over the middle of the field and taking them out of the QB's progression.  The obsession about his run D is kinda crazy.  It's a passing league, the Bills have the #1 pass D by miles for the past 2+ years and he is a large part of it.  You can accept this or you don't have to, but if you choose to continue your crusade against him it basically shows you either don't understand football very well or you choose to see what you want to see.

 

I promise you his contract will reflect the value other teams see him bringing in pass defense and not run defense.

 

I covered this in the Edmunds Report last year.  No one wants to hear it.  They're fixated on he's not Urlacher, Keuchly, and Lewis rolled into one.

[Don Otreply]

4 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

Edmunds is fine, but I'd like to see more investment in the offense. 

Agree, we need some guys on the O-line who can “run block and pass block”, should Beane pull this off, it will cure a couple of other important issues, 

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, billsfanmd07 said:

I forget Milano numbers, but I feel bad because Edmonds may want twice what Milano took to stay here. Animosity could pop up as I don't see TE taking a home town discount.     

 

Milano is a very humble and centered minimalist who now has generational wealth (and will likely get a third contract in his career as well). He's good.

[ColoradoBills]

1 minute ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

First, thanks for the shout-out.  If we want him, I believe we have plenty of cap flex in the deals of others that we are not going to walk away from and there can afford to restructure (Allen, White, Miler, etc).  I hope.  

 

Beane will need to use restructures just to field 53 players next year.  He's at -$8M with only 36 players signed.

Edmunds is only one of the multiple FAs which needs a decision.  There will be players moving on that we all would like to keep.

 

I will stick to my point that it all depends on where the cap is going.

[MarlinTheMagician]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

Agree, we need some guys on the O-line who can “run block and pass block”, should Beane pull this off, it will cure a couple of other important issues, 

Draft 'em and coach em up.  Tremaine must remain!

[Freddie's Dead]

43 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

Since 2018:

 

Milano - 5 INT, 1 FF, 9.0 sacks, 41 TFL

Edmunds - 4 INT, 2 FF, 6.5 sacks, 30 TFL

 

Wow what a huge difference! Not having same impact as an elite WLB (who is allowed to play with more freedom) doesn’t mean a player doesn’t make an impact.

 

 

DON'T CONFUSE US WITH FACTS!!

[Bangarang]

1 minute ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

Frazier wanting him to take a next step and generate more splash plays does not mean Frazier does not realize his value or doesn't want him for the defense.  I have seen him speak out strongly for Tremaine several times.

That’s not even the point I was making. 
 

My entire point is that Edmunds isn’t worth top LB money because he doesn’t make enough big plays to consistently impact games. Frazier made it a point to say that he wants to see more splash plays from him too. 
 

Frazier I’m sure likes Edmunds and appreciates what he does for his defense. He also speaks very highly of a lot of players, mediocre ones included. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

NostradamusShady knew this would be entertaining 😆 

 

edit 

#TeamEdmunds

Edited October 4, 2022 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 hour ago, RiotAct said:

okay, Johnny Cochran.

Few are aware that Mr. Cochran financed his law school studies with royalties from his bumper sticker:

'IF THIS VAN'S ROCKIN', DON'T BOTHER KNOCKIN'!'

🤔

(It must be true.  I read it on the internet.)

[John from Riverside]

To me it’s not even about whether it’s good enough anymore is shown that if he has the line in front of him he can produce it’s about how we’re not gonna be able to pay him 

[Bangarang]

52 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

Since 2018:

 

Milano - 5 INT, 1 FF, 9.0 sacks, 41 TFL

Edmunds - 4 INT, 2 FF, 6.5 sacks, 30 TFL

 

Wow what a huge difference! Not having same impact as an elite WLB (who is allowed to play with more freedom) doesn’t mean a player doesn’t make an impact.

 

In that time span:

 

Edmunds - 65 games played

Milano - 58 games played 

 

So with 7 more games, Edmunds still lacks the productivity of Milano. Thanks for clearing that up. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Bangarang

[MarlinTheMagician]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

In that time span:

 

Edmunds - 65 games played

Milano - 58 games played 

 

So with 7 more games, Edmunds still lacks the productivity of Milano. Thanks for clearing that up. 

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. Confirmation bias is powerful. 

[Bangarang]

Just now, MarlinTheMagician said:

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. Confirmation bias is powerful. 

Milano is still cuter no matter who you ask or what metric you use. 

[MarlinTheMagician]

Just now, Bangarang said:

Milano is still cuter no matter who you ask or what metric you use. 

But Tremaine has cooler hair.

[Success]

I never really understood the "controversy" around Edmunds.  He came into the league at a very young age.  He has developed and is playing great.  I don't think he ever played "bad."

 

Beane has some tough decisions to make, and this is one of 'em.  We can't lock in every good to great player we have - but Edmunds is absolutely worth keeping if we can afford it.

 

[Bangarang]

2 minutes ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

But Tremaine has cooler hair.

Oof I don’t know about that.

[Joe Ferguson]

He's still Engame Edmunds to me. I pass but keep the hottest looking player in the NFL, Matt Milano.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Joe Ferguson

[DJB]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

Edmunds is trending towards a priority re-sign.  He's becoming very good.. and has elite potential still. 

 

That said, he's playing behind a Top 3 DL in the NFL and heading into the offseason we will have had a 3rd RD pick in the system for a year.  Not sure what we're doing with Bernard if Edmunds is extended long term.  Good depth, sure, but strange use of draft capital as a top 100 pick. 

It was easy to see that he was drafted as insurance in case Tremaine didn’t work out 

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

And that’s solely a function of his rookie contract and where he was drafted. Not a good argument. Or are you blaming him for his draft position too?

 

Again: Who’s your alternative? 

It's an indisputable fact that completely disproves your statement that he isn't one of the highest paid ILBs in the league. The "why" isn't relevant to the "what" in this case. It's not possible to have a better argument.

As for who my alternative is, I would have preferred  that we bring in Wagner and ship off Edmunds, butt hat didn't happen. My Edmunds replacement likely comes in the draft unless Beane swings a trade for a top-end LB like Leonard, Warner or Smith.

Edited October 4, 2022 by BullBuchanan

[gobills404]

31 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

In that time span:

 

Edmunds - 65 games played

Milano - 58 games played 

 

So with 7 more games, Edmunds still lacks the productivity of Milano. Thanks for clearing that up. 

Did you completely miss the part where I said Edmunds doesn’t have the same impact as Milano or just choose to ignore it? Nobody is trying to say Edmund is better. Thanks for trying to move the goalposts.

[BullBuchanan]

29 minutes ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. Confirmation bias is powerful. 

Milano has out performed Edmunds every year and it isn't close. The data actually shows Edmunds has been a very poor coverage linebacker for most of his career, especially the last 2 seasons where QBs and receivers ate him alive while Milano thrived right next to him.

[gonzo1105]

Okay I'm not against re-signing him but we already invested in Milano. Right now we have a black hole at Safety next year with Poyer possibly in his last season, and Hyde with a neck injury. That position needs to be invested in. 

 

The Bills need to upgrade 

 

Safety

RB

Guard/Tackle (whichever you prefer)

 

Have to re-sign Ed Oliver for sure. Could Beane work some magic and make it all fit sure but paying another LB 10+ Million dollars when we need to actually give Allen some protection would be nice. 

[RyanC883]

2 hours ago, MarlinTheMagician said:

I don't think there has been a Bills player that has been more polarizing on this board, or in the fan base, since 2018.  I too have been frustrated with the failures on run fits and the apparent lack of instinct blitzing and against the run.  Starting now, I officially swear off on all of that.  Having watched him closely this year, I am an unrepentant Edmunds fan.  We need to sign him.  While he gets plenty of attention from opposing coaches and national media, I think he is somewhat unsung and definitely under-appreciated by The Mafia.  He is a huge difference maker and has really upped his game.  We need to find the money, as he is a key piece of the core.  One of my favorite Twitter posts was by a Rams fan after the opener:  "The Bills defense is unfair.  They have an actual Terdactyl playing middle linebacker."   We owe this player some love.

 

pay him what is the question.  He has improved this year, so has the DL.  Can he improve/play well w/o that line in front of him?  If we keep him, do we keep Oliver/Davis?  Oliver is more important to the D, IMO.  Just because he looks like a tetradactyl does not make him one.  Interestingly, he seems to be rushing the passer more this year, which is what he seems better suited for: straight downhill player rather than sit, read, react.  

[Just Joshin']

Offer the Milano contract.  He takes it or let him try the FA market where he will most likely find a better deal.  Then draft his replacement - a LB should be available at 31 (no dolphins pick) since MLB has been devalued to some extent.

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

It's an indisputable fact that completely disproves your statement that he isn't one of the highest paid ILBs in the league. The "why" isn't relevant to the "what" in this case. It's not possible to have a better argument.

As for who my alternative is, I would have preferred  that we bring in Wagner and ship off Edmunds, butt hat didn't happen. My Edmunds replacement likely comes in the draft unless Beane swings a trade for a top-end LB like Leonard, Warner or Smith.

that’s fine, but the pay isn’t indicative of anything but his draft status and the fact they picked up his option. So saying “he’s getting paid x so he should be playing at y level” is a bit disingenuous. Declining that and going after Wagner last year would have been a decent move, no argument there. Drafting a MLB is a option, with a completely unknown outcome.