Hodgins must stay

[BillsFanNC]

11 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Why did 13 seconds get included in that

 

Special teams communications error led to 13 seconds being left on clock.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

.

Guys like Stefon Diggs and AB were STers early in their careers. I would hate to be the team that gets rid of them too early in favor of 32 year old gunners. 

 

Again, no team is doing that. Teams do not get rid of developmental guys who can play special teams to keep an elite gunner. They get rid of fringe people who don't really belong in the NFL. The Jake Kumerows, the Tommy Sweeneys, the Duke Johnsons and the like. 

 

You are wrong about special teams. It's okay. Most fans are. 

[billybrew1]

I give up, he’s on the show for 75 minutes?

[BillsFanForever19]

12 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

If it were me I would keep Hodgins over Kumerow.  Just because Kumerow played special teams doesn't mean he isn't replaceable on special teams.

 

Yes, but you are making the assumption that Hodgins is as good at Special Teams or there's another player on the team at another position that is.

 

This mentality is demeaning to our core Special Teams players. Comes across as "anyone can do it". And not just anyone can do it and do it well. 

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again, no team is doing that. Teams do not get rid of developmental guys who can play special teams to keep an elite gunner. They get rid of fringe people who don't really belong in the NFL. The Jake Kumerows, the Tommy Sweeneys, the Duke Johnsons and the like. 

 

You are wrong about special teams. It's okay. Most fans are. 

 

 

In fairness........Duke Johnson belongs in the NFL.

 

He had a down year with the Texans in 2020 but otherwise he's been a much better player than the slightly older JD McKissic, for example.

 

The chances of James Cook averaging over 9 yards per reception in his career like Duke Johnson are scant...........that is an elite number for a pass catching RB.

 

[Don Otreply]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again, no team is doing that. Teams do not get rid of developmental guys who can play special teams to keep an elite gunner. They get rid of fringe people who don't really belong in the NFL. The Jake Kumerows, the Tommy Sweeneys, the Duke Johnsons and the like. 

 

You are wrong about special teams. It's okay. Most fans are. 

    I here what you are saying, but, STs like it or not are pretty much the red headed step child of the league.  
 

   STs are like cops and lawyers, no one wants them around until they need them,  so to speak,  As an example of how the league values STs players;  Zero specific STs players in the HOF, This is in large part why fans don’t value STs as they likely should. 
 

   Believe it or not I’m not against having competent STs guys on the team, so it’s not that, it’s that the league in all reality is “smh” when it comes down to giving meaningful recognition to the minor 3rd phase of the game, the league sets the example.  As is said, actions speak louder than words. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[SCBills]

8 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Yes, but you are making the assumption that Hodgins is as good at Special Teams or there's another player on the team at another position that is.

 

This mentality is demeaning to our core Special Teams players. Comes across as "anyone can do it". And not just anyone can do it and do it well. 

 

It's really tough. 

 

We haven't had bad special teams play for a few years now (sans punter issues).. The first time Araiza bombs a punt and we give up a huge return, fans will start to turn on how they view this issue.  

 

It will also be very frustrating if a legit slot corner like Cam Lewis or a legitimately promising young WR get claimed before we can stash them on the PS, simply because we feel the need to keep four guys on the roster that are only expected to ever contribute on special teams. (Jones, Neal, Kumerow, Matakevich)

 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

It's really tough. 

 

We haven't had bad special teams play for a few years now (sans punter issues).. The first time Araiza bombs a punt and we give up a huge return, fans will start to turn on how they view this issue.  

 

It will also be very frustrating if a legit slot corner like Cam Lewis or a legitimately promising young WR get claimed before we can stash them on the PS, simply because we feel the need to keep four guys on the roster that are only expected to ever contribute on special teams. (Jones, Neal, Kumerow, Matakevich)

 

 

Neal is not only expected to contribute on teams. He is our backup nickel, we use him as a big nickel in packages on defense against certain teams. He can play safety in a pinch and has even played a bit of oustide corner for us in a pinch.

 

Nor is Kumerow. Kumerow is not supposed to be here just for special teams. He is supposed to be here as a depth outside receiver and those guys HAVE to play special teams. Nobody carries a 5th or 6th receiver who never sees the field and doesn't play teams. Just doesn't happen. The issue with Kumerow is that his special teams contributions are better than his receiver contributions. But someone has to beat him out and so far, nobody has. Hodgins might have a shot right now but its now or never for him.

 

The two players the Bills keep almost entirely for special teams (except the K, P and LS) are Matakevich and Taiwan Jones. They have both been excellent at their jobs. 

 

I agree it'd suck seeing Cam Lewis go. Good kid, can play nickel and a bit of outside corner himself, and is a good teams player in his own right. But he is the only player on this roster who has flashed some proper potential and who might be at risk as a result of the Bills keeping other special teams guys. I think (and hope) there is a way to keep him on the roster. 

[Scott7975]

11 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Yes, but you are making the assumption that Hodgins is as good at Special Teams or there's another player on the team at another position that is.

 

This mentality is demeaning to our core Special Teams players. Comes across as "anyone can do it". And not just anyone can do it and do it well. 

 

Yes I am because I believe that Kumero is JAG.  

[BillsFanForever19]

16 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yes I am because I believe that Kumero is JAG.  

 

As a Special Teams player? Because he made the squad for that last season. He was the 7th WR on a roster that always kept 6 max for that reason. If they felt he was so replaceable there, the Bills would have just let him walk after last season. Instead, they gave him a new contract.

 

I get the feeling you're once again referring to his play as a WR and completely disregarding Special Teams. To your end of arguing for bottom of the roster WR's who won't be active on Game Day over core Special Teams players.

Edited August 17, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[BillsFanForever19]

On 8/14/2022 at 7:18 AM, John from Riverside said:

We drafted him

we’ve been patient with him

We need to keep him

 

We've been patient with him? You are aware we released him last season after Training Camp and he was only here on the Practice Squad, meaning anyone could have claimed him at any time - right?

[hemma]

Beane may be playing 4D chess for the foreseeable future, trying to hold onto talent. Have some big contracts to work around.

I have no idea how far his roster planning extends into the future, but:

 

In 2024, as things now stand, we’ll have Diggs, Shakir, Stevenson and Pau’u under contract, which is to say, Diggs and Shakir.

I think he’ll be forced ($$) to be pretty restrictive on picking up free agents and will try to use other means of rounding out the roster.

 

Davis may be spectacular - or at least out of our restricted $$ range for keeping, with the same for Mackenzie.

 

Hodgins however, will be an ERFA and will be able to be resigned for peanuts - a 1 year contract at league minimum.  

This may a small + that nudges him over the top.

 

Yes, a spitball.

[DCbillsfan]

15 minutes ago, hemma said:

Beane may be playing 4D chess for the foreseeable future, trying to hold onto talent. Have some big contracts to work around.

I have no idea how far his roster planning extends into the future, but:

 

In 2024, as things now stand, we’ll have Diggs, Shakir, Stevenson and Pau’u under contract, which is to say, Diggs and Shakir.

I think he’ll be forced ($$) to be pretty restrictive on picking up free agents and will try to use other means of rounding out the roster.

 

Davis may be spectacular - or at least out of our restricted $$ range for keeping, with the same for Mackenzie.

 

Hodgins however, will be an ERFA and will be able to be resigned for peanuts - a 1 year contract at league minimum.  

This may a small + that nudges him over the top.

 

Yes, a spitball.

If Hodgins keeps making plays he'll make the team this year.  I believe drafting a WR in 2023 will be high priority.  Keeping Oliver and Davis are the priorities imo.  

[LABILLBACKER]

Yeah I don't get all this Kumerow love. I just don't see what he does so compelling on ST that justifies his zero contribution on offense? Just train Hodgins to do exactly what Kumerow does and call it a day.  Last Saturday Hodgins reminded me of an extremely taller, younger version of Beasley. 

[Cash]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Neal is not only expected to contribute on teams. He is our backup nickel, we use him as a big nickel in packages on defense against certain teams. He can play safety in a pinch and has even played a bit of oustide corner for us in a pinch.

 

Nor is Kumerow. Kumerow is not supposed to be here just for special teams. He is supposed to be here as a depth outside receiver and those guys HAVE to play special teams. Nobody carries a 5th or 6th receiver who never sees the field and doesn't play teams. Just doesn't happen. The issue with Kumerow is that his special teams contributions are better than his receiver contributions. But someone has to beat him out and so far, nobody has. Hodgins might have a shot right now but its now or never for him.

 

The two players the Bills keep almost entirely for special teams (except the K, P and LS) are Matakevich and Taiwan Jones. They have both been excellent at their jobs. 

 

I agree it'd suck seeing Cam Lewis go. Good kid, can play nickel and a bit of outside corner himself, and is a good teams player in his own right. But he is the only player on this roster who has flashed some proper potential and who might be at risk as a result of the Bills keeping other special teams guys. I think (and hope) there is a way to keep him on the roster. 

 

There is real value in guys like Siran Neal, who can play at all the positions Gunner listed without completely killing the defense.  Is he great at any of those spots?  No.  But he's a depth player, and that's what's available.  The alternative is probably a specialist who's slightly better at 1 of the positions, but significantly worse at all the others. 

[Robert Paulson]

14 hours ago, StHustle said:

So let me start by saying I like Cover 1 and the deep dives they take on the technical part of the game. It’s impressive how they’ve been able to get multiple Bills players to come on and do extensive interviews with them. Many even speculate that that’s a major reason Thad Brown hated on them like he did a couple weeks ago.

 

With that said, watching this particular episode, I came away feeling like Hodgins said way too much. I understand the opponent gets to go over the same game type they did and can break down Hodgins tendencies themselves. But to me it’s like, let them do their jobs. Give them a chance to come to false conclusions instead of you laying things out on a platter like that.

 

McKenzie was on their show a few weeks back and was seemingly intent on keeping things very general but still gave insight and was informative and entertaining. But it didn’t feel like any of it was to the detriment of the ingredients of his secret sauce.

 

Maybe I’m totally overreacting here. Curious of what me fellow TBDers think 🤔 

 

 

 

 

I didn't  think was bad at all. Scouting interns should know this stuff 

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

We've been patient with him? You are aware we released him last season after Training Camp and he was only here on the Practice Squad, meaning anyone could have claimed him at any time - right?

So you think if you put someone on your practice squad you are giving up on him?

[HamptonBillsfan]

Hodgins looked good vs the Colts, but can we see him produce in a real game against starters before we anoint him as a member of our receiver corp. I’m rooting for him because he’s had challenges but we need a consistent, clutch, durable player to replace Cole.

[BillsFanForever19]

45 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

So you think if you put someone on your practice squad you are giving up on him?

 

Considering that you a.) Have to release the player and subject them to waivers and then b.) Are placing them in a position to be signed to anyone's active roster at any given time - I wouldn't exactly call that being heavily invested in someone or being patient with a player. 

 

Patient to me would be protecting them by giving them a spot on the 53. They flat out cut him.

[Don Otreply]

12 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Considering that you a.) Have to release the player and subject them to waivers and then b.) Are placing them in a position to be signed to anyone's active roster at any given time - I wouldn't exactly call that being heavily invested in someone or being patient with a player. 

 

Patient to me would be protecting them by giving them a spot on the 53. They flat out cut him.

I just watched a “ locked on Bills” episode, Joe Marino broke down who over the last couple of years was picked up from our team in the waiver process and signed to another teams 53, before going to our PS, it’s wasn’t very many, and once to the PS the player has to agree to play for another team, they cannot just take a player, also consider they can pay a PS guy as much as they want to, to keep

them around. Also consider 31 other teams have guys they want to keep as well, that the put through waivers…, 

[FireChans]

17 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again, no team is doing that. Teams do not get rid of developmental guys who can play special teams to keep an elite gunner. They get rid of fringe people who don't really belong in the NFL. The Jake Kumerows, the Tommy Sweeneys, the Duke Johnsons and the like. 

 

You are wrong about special teams. It's okay. Most fans are. 

Teams don't cut late round guys in favor of STers?  You sure about that?

[BillsFanForever19]

25 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I just watched a “ locked on Bills” episode, Joe Marino broke down who over the last couple of years was picked up from our team in the waiver process and signed to another teams 53, before going to our PS, it’s wasn’t very many, and once to the PS the player has to agree to play for another team, they cannot just take a player, also consider they can pay a PS guy as much as they want to, to keep

them around. Also consider 31 other teams have guys they want to keep as well, that the put through waivers…, 

 

No NFL player is going to say no to an active roster spot to stay on a Practice Squad. No NFL Team is going to subject a player to waivers that they heavily value. You keep the guys you want on your roster. You cut the ones you can afford to go without. Isaiah Hodgins was the latter last season.

[CSBill]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:51 PM, DRsGhost said:

 

Attempting to minimize the importance of special teams in any way to a fanbase that's witnessed...

 

Wide right

 

Music city debacle 

 

13 seconds

 

Isn't going to fly.

Well, when you put it that way. Yikes!

[Success]

The Bills need to keep this guy.  Can't really pinpoint it - but he's going to be a key piece along the way.

 

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Teams don't cut late round guys in favor of STers?  You sure about that?

 

Teams don't cut talented good players in favour of special teamers. Special teamers are not keeping Antonio Browns and Stefon Diggs' off the roster. Chris Hogan stuck over D'Rick Rodgers. Andre Holmes stuck over Rod Streeter. It is that level of NFL no hoper that has to be worried about special teamers.

[Don Otreply]

17 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

No NFL player is going to say no to an active roster spot to stay on a Practice Squad. No NFL Team is going to subject a player to waivers that they heavily value. You keep the guys you want on your roster. You cut the ones you can afford to go without. Isaiah Hodgins was the latter last season.

Players get put on teams PSs because the see them as viable prospects and worth developing, you don’t have to believe that but you would be wrong to do so,

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Considering that you a.) Have to release the player and subject them to waivers and then b.) Are placing them in a position to be signed to anyone's active roster at any given time - I wouldn't exactly call that being heavily invested in someone or being patient with a player. 

 

Patient to me would be protecting them by giving them a spot on the 53. They flat out cut him.

Its a calculated risk letting a drafted player go to your practice squad injuries helped keep him from getting poached.

 

 

[TPS]

He's getting some time with Josh:

 

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

As a Special Teams player? Because he made the squad for that last season. He was the 7th WR on a roster that always kept 6 max for that reason. If they felt he was so replaceable there, the Bills would have just let him walk after last season. Instead, they gave him a new contract.

 

I get the feeling you're once again referring to his play as a WR and completely disregarding Special Teams. To your end of arguing for bottom of the roster WR's who won't be active on Game Day over core Special Teams players.

 

Yes, he is JAG as a special teams player.  So what if he made the squad.  Doesnt mean he isn't Jag.  There are Jags all over the league.  So what if they gave him a 1.2m dollar deal with 76k guaranteed.  Those are the types of contracts teams make when they dont give a crap and can easily walk away from.

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Players get put on teams PSs because the see them as viable prospects and worth developing, you don’t have to believe that but you would be wrong to do so,

 

You're missing the point. The point isn't that Practice Squad players are worthless and not worth trying to develop. The point is - that if he was as valuable to them as many make him out to be - he wouldn't have been cut from a roster that included 7 WR's making the 53. They wouldn't have risked losing him. They were okay with that happening. That doesn't scream patience and investment.

 

11 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yes, he is JAG as a special teams player.  So what if he made the squad.  Doesnt mean he isn't Jag.  There are Jags all over the league.  So what if they gave him a 1.2m dollar deal with 76k guaranteed.  Those are the types of contracts teams make when they dont give a crap and can easily walk away from.

 

You say JAG. McDermott and Beane say Special Teams core player who not only made the squad last season for his play there, but was deemed worthy enough to be given a new contract before the start of Free Agency. And I'll give you one guess who's opinion actually matters.

 

If they shared your opinion that he was so replaceable and anyone could do it, they'd have just let him walk and spent the money on someone else for the role.

Edited August 18, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[Don Otreply]

3 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

You're missing the point. The point isn't that Practice Squad players are worthless and not worth trying to develop. The point is - that if he was as valuable to them as many make him out to be - he wouldn't have been cut from a roster that included 7 WR's making the 53. They wouldn't have risked losing him. They were okay with that happening. That doesn't scream patience and investment.

 

 

You say JAG. McDermott and Beane say Special Teams core player who not only made the squad last season for his play there, but was deemed worthy enough to be given a new contract before the start of Free Agency. And I'll give you one guess who's opinion actually matters. You just want your guy to make the Squad and damn Special Teams.

In this case you are wrong, in other cases you my be correct.

[BillsFanForever19]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

In this case you are wrong, in other cases you my be correct.

 

Lol how? They deemed him no greater than the 8th best WR and straight out cut him. How is that even a debate?

[ColoradoBills]

Hodgins getting more snaps with the ones today!

Bills keep 6WRs.  Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, Crowder, Khalil and Hodgins.

 

Kumerow cut and goes to PS.  His ST duties taken over by Terrel Bernard.

If the Bills feel they need another ST player, they keep Giles-Harris or Spector (if he looks good), but I think Spector is PS bound.

 

I'm watching what Gilles-Harris does in the next 2 weeks.  Smalley has already talked him up and I want to see how he is at LB too.

[Scott7975]

45 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

You're missing the point. The point isn't that Practice Squad players are worthless and not worth trying to develop. The point is - that if he was as valuable to them as many make him out to be - he wouldn't have been cut from a roster that included 7 WR's making the 53. They wouldn't have risked losing him. They were okay with that happening. That doesn't scream patience and investment.

 

 

You say JAG. McDermott and Beane say Special Teams core player who not only made the squad last season for his play there, but was deemed worthy enough to be given a new contract before the start of Free Agency. And I'll give you one guess who's opinion actually matters.

 

If they shared your opinion that he was so replaceable and anyone could do it, they'd have just let him walk and spent the money on someone else for the role.

 

Yes he is still Jag.  Those guys are replaceable and they get replaced every year.  Contracts are given out all the time and cut the same year.  It matters not.  They could let him walk sure.  They could also keep him for bare minimum with peanuts guaranteed until they replace him.  If he was so valuable to them then he would get a multi year deal, but he isn't.  

 

This guy has bounced all over the place between practice squads and rosters and more practice squads.  Released from teams the same year.  This is his second stint on the Bills because he wasn't good enough before.  Now all of a sudden he is some elite STer?  No, he isn't.  He is JAG and currently on the roster because they haven't replaced him yet.  Thats all.  He may be on this team for the whole year.  He may even sign another extension.  He may get cut in favor of someone else to put on the roster.  He may end up back on our PS or he may end up on the street.  He is just another guy.  Nobody special that isn't replaceable by just another guy.  Thats what JAGs are.

[Ralonzo]

3 hours ago, Success said:

The Bills need to keep this guy.  Can't really pinpoint it - but he's going to be a key piece along the way.

 

 

2 hours ago, TPS said:

He's getting some time with Josh:

 

 

You high-pointing wide receiver, you high-pointing wide-receiver.

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Teams don't cut talented good players in favour of special teamers. Special teamers are not keeping Antonio Browns and Stefon Diggs' off the roster. Chris Hogan stuck over D'Rick Rodgers. Andre Holmes stuck over Rod Streeter. It is that level of NFL no hoper that has to be worried about special teamers.

Well that's an easy argument to make when we traded Wyatt Teller and kept some ST bums instead. Because you just argue that's not what we did.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Well that's an easy argument to make when we traded Wyatt Teller and kept some ST bums instead. Because you just argue that's not what we did.

 

It isn't what we did. So of course that is an easy argument to make. 

[hemma]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yes he is still Jag.  Those guys are replaceable and they get replaced every year.  Contracts are given out all the time and cut the same year.  It matters not.  They could let him walk sure.  They could also keep him for bare minimum with peanuts guaranteed until they replace him.  If he was so valuable to them then he would get a multi year deal, but he isn't.  

 

This guy has bounced all over the place between practice squads and rosters and more practice squads.  Released from teams the same year.  This is his second stint on the Bills because he wasn't good enough before.  Now all of a sudden he is some elite STer?  No, he isn't.  He is JAG and currently on the roster because they haven't replaced him yet.  Thats all.  He may be on this team for the whole year.  He may even sign another extension.  He may get cut in favor of someone else to put on the roster.  He may end up back on our PS or he may end up on the street.  He is just another guy.  Nobody special that isn't replaceable by just another guy.  Thats what JAGs are.

 

If my abacus is working properly, I cipher that in 2023 our top 8 guys (before any more extensions/contracts) will total to about 65% of our cap.  That’ll leave a little less than $2M per player for the remaining 45.  We finally have our QB and a handful of other critical players, but they need to be paid.

 

My thoughts are that we are going to have a whole bunch of JAGS on this team.  If we are going to be at/near the top for any period of time, we’ll need the best JAGS that fully accept and willingly participate in the ‘process’.  Hodgins may be a JAG, along with guys like Blackshear & Cam Lewis and they will take more patience to develop but they, along with consistent coaching, will be what will keep us on top.  

Beane & McDermotts’ jobs will get even tougher.  IMO, it starts now.

 

 

[DCbillsfan]

27 minutes ago, hemma said:

 

If my abacus is working properly, I cipher that in 2023 our top 8 guys (before any more extensions/contracts) will total to about 65% of our cap.  That’ll leave a little less than $2M per player for the remaining 45.  We finally have our QB and a handful of other critical players, but they need to be paid.

 

My thoughts are that we are going to have a whole bunch of JAGS on this team.  If we are going to be at/near the top for any period of time, we’ll need the best JAGS that fully accept and willingly participate in the ‘process’.  Hodgins may be a JAG, along with guys like Blackshear & Cam Lewis and they will take more patience to develop but they, along with consistent coaching, will be what will keep us on top.  

Beane & McDermotts’ jobs will get even tougher.  IMO, it starts now.

 

 

I just looked up the Bills contracts on Spotrac.  For 2023, Allen has a base salary of $27.5M which a large amount could be converted to a signing bonus to help create cap space.  Dawkins, Milano, and White could be done too.  Beane will figure it out.  I don't believe they'll do any major signings next off-season but I also didn't think they would sign Von Miller either.  So I'm not concerned about it.  Just going to watch Beane do his thing and out maneuver most of his colleagues once again.

[Airseven]

I just did a quick sketch of my 53. Rather straight forward actually. My last roster spot came down to Hodgins over Bryant. (I have Kumerow safely on the roster and Lawson cut.) I also have Ford on the roster, but if they can dump him for a 7th, then Hodgins and Bryant would both make it.