New "ironclad" Stadium deal reached

[Punching Bag]

55 minutes ago, Arkady Renko said:

With the Bills assured of staying here for the foreseeable future, how much do we care about Toronto getting an NFL team now?

 

Less of a concern to me if a NFC club.  

[Kmart128]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's about the dollars, not the perCENTS

 

Exactly.  They walk away from a billion+ dollar monument, awaiting demolition.

 

While true... things cost way more to build now then they did just a few years ago...

[Doc]

8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I’m sure the NFL would love to have a team in Toronto given they’re the fourth largest city population wise in North America.  LA isn’t exactly a football city but the market is so big they put two teams there.  

 

It would have happened by now.  It hasn't because it's Bills' territory.

[Rochesterfan]

14 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I’m sure the NFL would love to have a team in Toronto given they’re the fourth largest city population wise in North America.  LA isn’t exactly a football city but the market is so big they put two teams there.  

 

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

It would have happened by now.  It hasn't because it's Bills' territory.

 

Not only is Toronto in Bill’s territory, but Canada has a law protecting the CFL that enacts penalties and prevents any local, public funding of stadium builds, tax breaks, or other subsidies to anyone operating a franchise connected to a foreign based league or team.

 

In 1974 - Canada enacted legislation to block the NFL from expanding North and that has been used over and over to keep NFL teams from looking North.  
 

When Rogers was looking at purchasing the Bills after Ralph’s death - this was a major sticking block to moving the team to Toronto.  Rogers was trying to get the law changed because the Rogers Center was not adequate for permanent NFL and he wanted/needed help securing additional land and building a new stadium.  He was shut out of public funds to build and tax incentives to secure the land and build were also threatened.  The CFL and the Argos were also asking the government to impose addition fees on work unless it was for a new stadium exclusive to the Argonauts.  
 

That was part of the reason when it first came up - that the Toronto ownership group was going to “play out” the rest of the lease - they needed the law redacted or they could not financially put an NFL team in Toronto.  
 

As long as the CFL is viable and not part of the NFL - Toronto is going to be a hard place to land a franchise.  If the CFL had folded - I think Toronto and the NFL work with the Pegula’s on a deal.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I’m sure the stadium will be great but I’m a little disappointed that the new stadium is being rushed because the current stadium is falling apart.

[Greg S]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I’m sure the stadium will be great but I’m a little disappointed that the new stadium is being rushed because the current stadium is falling apart.

 

How is it being rushed? Won't open until 2026.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Greg S said:

 

How is it being rushed? Won't open until 2026.

There was pressure to get it built quickly because the stadium was falling apart. 
 

Sounds like if they had more time a downtown stadium was possible. 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

There was pressure to get it built quickly because the stadium was falling apart. 
 

Sounds like if they had more time a downtown stadium was possible. 

The stadium has been falling apart for twenty years. They've been putting band-aids on ad hoc. If they wanted a downtown stadium with all the expense of infrastructure and dealing with municipal politics, they could have done so. Orchard Park was always the favorite and there are good reasons for that.

[Bills Juggernaut]

General question. Does NY have any meaningful say in the overall look/aesthetics of the news stadium? Do the Pegulas have complete control over how they want the stadium to look?  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

The stadium has been falling apart for twenty years. They've been putting band-aids on ad hoc. If they wanted a downtown stadium with all the expense of infrastructure and dealing with municipal politics, they could have done so. Orchard Park was always the favorite and there are good reasons for that.

Why make the deal now then? Basically they waited until they had no time. The upper deck will be unsafe in a few years. They had to get a deal done quickly. Maybe that was strategic by the Pegulas to force the public money.

 

 

[davefan66]

On 4/11/2022 at 1:16 PM, BillsfaninSB said:

No, that is not it.  There was some chatter the Bills would have to play temporarily somewhere else while stadium is built.  Toronto and Penn State were thrown out there. 

I stopped in the Bills store today got my Von jersey and a cool Zubaz trucker hat,  and talked to one of the staff.

 

No idea if he is in the “know”.  
 

1.  Tearing down ECC South.  
2.  Construction won’t start this spring, but next.  Parking this year won’t be impacted, next season it will.

 

3.  He “heard chatter” that the Bills will need to play a season in a college stadium because of the current stadiums condition.

 

 Believe 1&2, not 3.  I could see it being a problem for parking once the new stadium starts, but would it impact the ability to have games?  Is the current stadium really that bad that they couldn’t dump a bunch of money into it for repairs?  I’m sure the Bills would lose money holding games elsewhere and would make sense to keep our fans in the seats.

 

Can’t say if the dude really knows anything, or just got his info from where we all do.

[WotAGuy]

1 hour ago, davefan66 said:

 Is the current stadium really that bad that they couldn’t dump a bunch of money into it for repairs?  I’m sure the Bills would lose money holding games elsewhere and would make sense to keep our fans in the seats.

 

Can’t say if the dude really knows anything, or just got his info from where we all do.

There is no way to fix structural issues like the upper deck has without tearing it down and rebuilding. They have already put all the band aids they can safely engineer onto it. It would be a huge safety issue and liability to deal with.
 

They can come out and play in the Dome here in Syracuse. 

[ALF]

Never read of the Bills having to play a season in another stadium. They will likely have to bus fans in from a more distant lot at some point unless ECC is leveled after this season.

[PromoTheRobot]

17 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

There is no way to fix structural issues like the upper deck has without tearing it down and rebuilding. They have already put all the band aids they can safely engineer onto it. It would be a huge safety issue and liability to deal with.
 

They can come out and play in the Dome here in Syracuse. 

Penn State makes more sense.

[BillsfaninSB]

32 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

They can come out and play in the Dome here in Syracuse. 

Go from one bad stadium to another.  

[davefan66]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

There is no way to fix structural issues like the upper deck has without tearing it down and rebuilding. They have already put all the band aids they can safely engineer onto it. It would be a huge safety issue and liability to deal with.
 

They can come out and play in the Dome here in Syracuse. 

I don’t believe that.  If it’s the concrete that I’ve seen, fix it.  If it’s steel, add supports.  Might not look great, but could be done.

 

How bad is it really?  Cause I sit upper deck and it would really ruin my day if something happened during a game.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

There is no way to fix structural issues like the upper deck has without tearing it down and rebuilding. They have already put all the band aids they can safely engineer onto it. It would be a huge safety issue and liability to deal with.
 

They can come out and play in the Dome here in Syracuse. 

It would be funny if they played in a dome.

[LabattBlue]

There is no word of ECC South being closed. If it was close, students and staff would have to be moved to the other 2 campuses.  Not saying it won’t happen, just a lot of work behind the scenes before they ever closed the campus, and began demolition. 

[WotAGuy]

33 minutes ago, davefan66 said:

I don’t believe that.  If it’s the concrete that I’ve seen, fix it.  If it’s steel, add supports.  Might not look great, but could be done.

 

How bad is it really?  Cause I sit upper deck and it would really ruin my day if something happened during a game.

“The county study did not consider the cost of replacing the stadium’s upper deck, which is generally believed to be in need of replacement in the next five to seven year. The state study pegged the replacement cost at $96 million, a figure the county now says is understated.”

https://www.investigativepost.org/2022/03/30/stadium-rehab-costs-lower-than-advertised/

[SoCal Deek]

I'm guessing that any discussion about playing in another stadium for a year is more about the logistics of completing the new facility while still keeping Rich Stadium open. (I seriously doubt it has much of anything to do with it being unsafe....or they would 'red tag' the place.)  At some point the new and the old are going to have to live next door to each other, and then the old one will be torn down. That's part of what the final design studies are about. As I've mentioned a couple of times in this thread, the new Tottenham Stadium was an interesting construction feat. It was actually built in two halves so as to reduce the time that the Team had to play elsewhere. Now, the Bills site nowhere near as tight, but you'll be surprised as to how much larger the new stadium's footprint will be even with a smaller capacity. In the end, you want the new facility to be in the best location on the property. It will be there for 50+years.  Nobody's going to want to walk all the way around the new stadium just to get inside because the old stadium was in the way 50 years ago. Make sense?

[davefan66]

3 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

“The county study did not consider the cost of replacing the stadium’s upper deck, which is generally believed to be in need of replacement in the next five to seven year. The state study pegged the replacement cost at $96 million, a figure the county now says is understated.”

https://www.investigativepost.org/2022/03/30/stadium-rehab-costs-lower-than-advertised/

Well, they could close the upper decks and just populate the lower bowl and suites.  Add seating, standing room wherever they could.  That’s if the uppers are that bad.  Not sure how it want addressed during the last renovation.

Doesn’t make sense to play elsewhere, the cost of extra travel would be substantial.  And that’s assuming home base is Orchard Park.  If they were to move operations, that cost would be astronomical- offices, training equipment, put players up, etc.  Not to mention a smaller venue, would equal less game revenue.

 

As far as costs to rehab vs new stadium.  Makes fiscal sense to build new just on the grounds of total cost over the life of the lease. Nothing to do with who foots the bill, or percentages.  Rehabbing to league standards would be less costly now, but would cost more later.  Yes, it’s better than before, but it won’t last as long as a new stadium, and probably would require higher yearly maintenance costs than a new stadium.  And most likely would require total replacement before lease end anyways.

[Punching Bag]

I think it is likely that Erie Community College parking lots will be rented by Bills and subsequently rented to Bills fans with shuttle service between two.

They could run a shuttle down Community College Drive.

[BillsFan4]

Personally, this pisses me off a lot more than the tax money being used (which I’m ok with since we get to keep the Bills)

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/bills-to-sell-personal-seat-licenses-to-help-pay-for-private-portion-of-new-stadium/article_c16caec0-1be5-11ec-967c-1fdcafe359cf.html

 

Quote

Bills owners Kim and Terry Pegula plan to pay for a portion of their share of any “public/private partnership” struck with New York State and Erie County to construct a new stadium by selling personal seat licenses, a revenue source used to help pay for more than half the stadiums in the league.

 

“We will definitely have PSLs as part of a new stadium,” said Ron Raccuia, the executive vice president and lead negotiator for Pegula Sports and Entertainment, during an interview this week with The Buffalo News. “Every new stadium that’s opened since 2009 has utilized PSLs.”

 

PSLs are a one-time, upfront expense that gives fans the right – and obligation – to purchase season tickets each year, or else return them to the team.

 

They are getting $850 million from NY state, $200 million from the NFL (that they don’t have to pay back as far as I understand) and yet they still plan to pay much of their share by charging their most loyal, die hard fans (season ticket holders) a minimum of $1000+ each (and likely much more depending on the seats) for the “privilege” to spend even more money to buy your season tickets.

 

I know every new stadium uses PSL’s and you do get some perks with them, but I still think it’s BS.

 

 

Quote

“Basically, PSL money is generally treated as the owners’ contribution" toward stadium financing, Zimbalist said, “so that if a stadium costs $1 billion and the owner sells $300 million worth of PSLs, and does nothing else, then they would say 30% of the stadium is being financed by the owner. But of course the PSLs are being bought by the fans.”

 

I think this sums it up ⬇️
 

Quote

“First you pay for the right to buy the seat, and then you pay for the seat itself,” said Andrew Zimbalist, the sports economist at Smith College in Massachusetts who described the practice as a two-part tariff. “My buddy (the sportscaster) Bob Costas used to say, ‘It’s like walking into a restaurant and paying to see the menu, and then buying the food.’ ”

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by BillsFan4

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

Personally, this pisses me off a lot more than the tax money being used:

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/bills-to-sell-personal-seat-licenses-to-help-pay-for-private-portion-of-new-stadium/article_c16caec0-1be5-11ec-967c-1fdcafe359cf.html

 

 

They are getting $850 million from NY state, $200 million from the NFL (that they don’t have to pay back as far as I understand) and yet they still plan to pay much of their share by charging their most loyal, die hard fans (season ticket holders) a minimum of $1000+ each (and likely much more depending on the seats) for the “privilege” to spend even more money to buy your season tickets.

 

I know every new stadium uses PSL’s and you do get some perks with them, but I still think it’s BS.

 

 

 

I think this sums it up ⬇️
 

 

Huh? Do you say the same thing when go in a store? Do you think the Gap doesn’t charge you for the cost of the building? Of course they do.

[nucci]

15 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Huh? Do you say the same thing when go in a store? Do you think the Gap doesn’t charge you for the cost of the building? Of course they do.

not quite same analogy...do you write a check to the Gap for $2K before you walk in?

[BillsFan4]

20 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Huh? Do you say the same thing when go in a store? Do you think the Gap doesn’t charge you for the cost of the building? Of course they do.

They still get their money from tickets, concessions, parking, etc. which are all already at a premium and will all likely be even higher at the new stadium.

Plus the money they get from all sort of other revenue streams (profit sharing, TV, ads, naming rights, team merchandise, etc).

 

I guess I see it more like the Gap charging you a large one time non-refundable fee just to be able to shop in their store, where everything is more expensive, and if you don’t keep shopping there you lose your right to shop there and have to pay the fee all over again.

 

 

 

If you don’t continue to buy season tickets year after year you either have to sell your PSL or it’s forfeited back to the team.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

13 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

They still get their money from tickets, concessions, parking, etc. which are all already at a premium and will all likely be even higher at the new stadium.

Plus the money they get from all sort of other revenue streams (profit sharing, TV, ads, naming rights, team merchandise, etc).

 

I guess I see it more like the Gap charging you a large one time non-refundable fee just to be able to shop in their store, where everything is more expensive, and if you don’t keep shopping there you lose your right to shop there and have to pay the fee all over again.

 

 

 

If you don’t continue to buy season tickets year after year you either have to sell your PSL or it’s forfeited back to the team.

 

 

Ever been to Costco? Amazon? Come on now. The new stadium isn’t free. It’s going to cost you more to attend games. I thought everyone understood that. 

[Punching Bag]

49 minutes ago, nucci said:

not quite same analogy...do you write a check to the Gap for $2K before you walk in?

 

Think of it as a warehouse club.  You need to have a membership before you shop. 

Sometimes prices are cheaper in it but not always.

48 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

If you don’t continue to buy season tickets year after year you either have to sell your PSL or it’s forfeited back to the team.

 

 

If the owner is $nyder he sues you or your heirs for money if you fail to keep up payments.

Some timeshare companies are like that too.

[Mr Info]

3 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

Personally, this pisses me off a lot more than the tax money being used:

 

They are getting $850 million from NY state, $200 million from the NFL (that they don’t have to pay back as far as I understand) and yet they still plan to pay much of their share by charging their most loyal, die hard fans (season ticket holders) a minimum of $1000+ each (and likely much more depending on the seats) for the “privilege” to spend even more money to buy your season tickets.

 

I know every new stadium uses PSL’s and you do get some perks with them, but I still think it’s BS.

 

 

 

I think this sums it up ⬇️
 

 

Bills already use PSLs. Roughly 60% of club seat charge is a PSL. It says so right on the invoice.

[BillsFan4]

44 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Ever been to Costco? Amazon? Come on now. The new stadium isn’t free. It’s going to cost you more to attend games. I thought everyone understood that. 

Right. That was my point in the last post. It’s already going to cost more for tickets, parking, concessions, etc. to help fund the new stadium. And they’re already getting $850M from NYS and $200M from the NFL. I just feel the PSL’s are unnecessary.

 

Im not mad about the new stadium or the taxpayer funds being used. Check all my posts in this thread. I’m thrilled the deal got done and the Bills are staying. I fully understood it would take NYS paying a large portion for it to happen. Especially with Buffalo being such a small market. We’re lucky to even have an NFL team. I’ve done nothing but defend the new stadium deal.
 

I just don’t like the PSL’s. I think it’s a crappy thing to do to your most loyal fans. They’re already getting more public money than any previous NFL stadium. It just seems greedy to me.

Edited April 14, 2022 by BillsFan4

[nucci]

10 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Ever been to Costco? Amazon? Come on now. The new stadium isn’t free. It’s going to cost you more to attend games. I thought everyone understood that. 

you don't have to shop at Costco or Amazon, there are other options available.

[ALF]

11 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

Right. That was my point in the last post. It’s already going to cost more for tickets, parking, concessions, etc. to help fund the new stadium. And they’re already getting $850M from NYS and $200M from the NFL. I just feel the PSL’s are unnecessary.

 

Im not mad about the new stadium or the taxpayer funds being used. Check all my posts in this thread. I’m thrilled the deal got done and the Bills are staying. I fully understood it would take NYS paying a large portion for it to happen. Especially with Buffalo being such a small market. We’re lucky to even have an NFL team. I’ve done nothing but defend the new stadium deal.
 

I just don’t like the PSL’s. I think it’s a crappy thing to do to your most loyal fans. They’re already getting more public money than any previous NFL stadium. It just seems greedy to me.

 

With a new stadium,  resale of tickets to a few games per season to fans from visiting teams with deep pockets will soften the increase. There should be high demand even from non season ticket Bill's fans.

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, nucci said:

you don't have to shop at Costco or Amazon, there are other options available.

I almost hate to post this on a Bills Message Board…but you do know you don’t have to go the Bills game, right? And there are other entertainment options available. (Please don’t kill me Bills fans.) 😳

[BillsFan4]

2 hours ago, nucci said:

you don't have to shop at Costco or Amazon, there are other options available.

And you can shop at both for free online.

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I almost hate to post this on a Bills Message Board…but you do know you don’t have to go the Bills game, right? And there are other entertainment options available. (Please don’t kill me Bills fans.) 😳

The point was that there are no other options for season ticket holders. Either pay whatever the Pegulas decide t9 charge for PSL’s or you can’t buy season tickets at all.

[nucci]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I almost hate to post this on a Bills Message Board…but you do know you don’t have to go the Bills game, right? And there are other entertainment options available. (Please don’t kill me Bills fans.) 😳

I get this...just saying you can't compare it to memberships at Costco or Amazon. I can buy toilet paper at a different store without a membership fee. I only have 1 option if I want to go to a Bills game

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, BillsFan4 said:

And you can shop at both for free online.

The point was that there are no other options for season ticket holders. Either pay whatever the Pegulas decide t9 charge for PSL’s or you can’t buy season tickets at all.

Don’t get me wrong. I completely understand the point. Yes, it’s going to cost more to attend Bills games in the brand new stadium. How much more? Answer…what the WNY market will bear, just as is true in the current stadium. Think about it. You’re stuck paying the price of admission. The Pegulas are stuck charging what fans are willing to pay. It’s not like they can bus fans in from Cleveland. The stadium is where it is and it will be for another FIFTY years. Neither you or the owners have options. It’s a balance.

3 minutes ago, nucci said:

I get this...just saying you can't compare it to memberships at Costco or Amazon. I can buy toilet paper at a different store without a membership fee. I only have 1 option if I want to go to a Bills game

My point is that many retail stores have gone to a hidden ‘membership’ fee to make their daily pricing look and feel lower. It’s a retail gimmick, but it works. 

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Don’t get me wrong. I completely understand the point. Yes, it’s going to cost more to attend Bills games in the brand new stadium. How much more? Answer…what the WNY market will bear, just as is true in the current stadium. Think about it. You’re stuck paying the price of admission. The Pegulas are stuck charging what fans are willing to pay. It’s not like they can bus fans in from Cleveland. The stadium is where it is and it will be for another FIFTY years. Neither you or the owners have options. It’s a balance.

My point is that many retail stores have gone to a hidden ‘membership’ fee to make their daily pricing look and feel lower. It’s a retail gimmick, but it works. 

 

Absolutely untrue.  They could simply choose not to charge PSLs and cough up that small % of the cost of the stadium from their vast personal wealth.  

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Absolutely untrue.  They could simply choose not to charge PSLs and cough up that small % of the cost of the stadium from their vast personal wealth.  

 

 

Huh? Why would the Pegulas want to treat you to a football stadium? Why would the owner of any business? This is just silly talk. Now…if you’re desperate to go to a football game for cheaper prices you might want to request that preseason games be reduced admission (I’ve always been in favor of that). Or, maybe you can attend UB games, or CFL, or the local high school, or junior college. 

[The Wiz]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:02 PM, Kmart128 said:

 

While true... things cost way more to build now then they did just a few years ago...

We joked about this at work the other day.

 

We have an art gallery in my building that's about 5,000sqft with marble tile on the floor. 

 

They are replacing the ceiling and lighting so they covered the tile with 3/4" plywood so the lifts didn't scratch the tile. 

 

I said to the contractor "I think the plywood floor cost more than the marble".

 

He said I was probably right. 

[BillsFan4]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Don’t get me wrong. I completely understand the point. Yes, it’s going to cost more to attend Bills games in the brand new stadium. How much more? Answer…what the WNY market will bear, just as is true in the current stadium. Think about it. You’re stuck paying the price of admission. The Pegulas are stuck charging what fans are willing to pay. It’s not like they can bus fans in from Cleveland. The stadium is where it is and it will be for another FIFTY years. Neither you or the owners have options. It’s a balance.

I totally get that they could move the team and make a LOT more money in a bigger market, and I definitely appreciate that they kept the team here.

and I like the Pegulas as owners. They’ve done a lot for Buffalo and spent a lot of their own money on the Bills/Sabres in order to try and win + make Buffalo more of a destination. I still think we are lucky to have them. Even the Sabres! 😂

 

Again, I just don’t like PSL’s. For any team. I’ve thought they were somewhat of a scam ever since they were introduced. Now, if they were optional as a way to get more perks, that would be different. But as they work now, I think they are kind of preying on passionate sports fans. They know they have a monopoly and they take advantage of that.

 

 

I think it’s kind of BS that NY is going to own the stadium, being built mostly with taxpayer dollars, yet NY residents can’t buy the same season tickets they used to without paying this large fee directly to the Pegulas (who don’t even own the stadium).

 

I guess I just feel that fans kind of already paid for the right to buy tickets to the stadium they are mostly funding. And I also feel like you’re already paying for the right to that seat when you buy season tickets.

 

anyway…

 

I don’t want it to sound like I’m not happy about this new stadium, because I am.

I’m very happy the Bills will be in Buffalo probably for the rest of my life now (or most of it).