From Dawg Pound to Bills Mafia - Browns Fans Leaving for the Bills

[TheBrownBear]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again, I have never once said I don't believe the women. This is not so much about Deshaun Watson as it is about the core principles of the democracy that we live by. And I accept that the system is imperfect. But we either have a justice system and if we do we have to trust it or we delegate justice to mob rule and allow the court of public opinion to decide on guilt. I repeat that must be avoided at all costs. 

Dude.  I might be wrong, I didn't read through every single post, but I have seen no one argue that the court of public opinion should replace the rule of law.  And if anyone is saying that, they are dangerous fools - agreed.  I get it.  Outrage culture seemingly can condemn a man these days before they ever get a chance to defend themselves, but that's not really what's happening here.  Watson is free to do whatever he likes, but we do not have to like it and respect it by rooting for the guy 

[Steptide]

6 hours ago, Beach said:

this reminds me of the outrage Philly had when they signed Vick.  the outrage vanished when he started winning.

Ya, it'll be exactly this. None of these fans are leaving their team. Just like all the people that would never watch the NFL again after players kneeling for the anthem. Next week these same fans are gonna be talking about how the Browns are gonna go to the superbowl this year 

[ndirish1978]

25 minutes ago, Little Dog said:

I don’t know if he’s guilty or not. I do know he was never charged with a crime, and out 26 not one accusation stuck. The only people I hate worse than men who abuse women in any kind of way are people who abuse children in any kind of way. 

I don’t know the facts of what happened, until they come out I reserve judgment.

 

Don't really care. 20+ accusations is enough to tell me that it's more likely than not that he is not a person I want to root for. Do you know how hard it is to get a criminal conviction for a crime with no physical evidence and based mostly on anecdotal evidence, I doubt it. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah he is legally entitled to get on with his life. That doesn't mean an NFL franchise has to sell the farm and give him the most guaranteed money in NFL history to woo him to their team. Especially when the contract is very specifically written to mitigate his punishment as much as possible. Watson has at the very least shown a pattern of incredibly disturbing behavior and he comes out the other side of it with generational wealth. I respect our legal system as much as anyone and I accept that the underlying principle of innocent until proven guilty will sometimes produce bad results. I don't believe in mob justice. None of that precludes me or anyone else from judging Watson for his actions or judging the Browns for theirs. We know Watson was serially finding new massage therapists online. There are a number of credible accusations that he used those sessions to get his thrills and put those women in an awful position. The man that did that is now the face of an NFL franchise. There is room in the court of public opinion for men like that to lose their status in society.

 

I agree with almost all of this HappyDays, but what is the alternative? The alternative is the NFL shuns him and the court of public opinion has essentially decided that the principle of innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant and he should lose his livelihood. That is an outcome that leads you down a very slippery slope. Because today that is Deshaun Watson who may or may not have done some of the things he is accused of but once you undermine that core principle then what if tomorrow it is a local business owner or school teacher or whoever else who loses their employment to mob rule. The courts are the only places that should determine guilt and apply punishments. 

[TheBrownBear]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think you should read my posts again. You seem to have a problem with comprehension. If you want to debate the utility and efficiency of the justice system with me let's do it. This is pretty much my area of expertise. 

I don't care to and this isn't about that.  I agree 100% in the dictum of innocent until proven guilty.  It means that Watson has the right to move around freely in society, work, vote, etc., and unless I'm confused, he is being allowed to do all these things.  Innocence in the court of law doesn't mean we have to like the guy, root for him and financially support him.  These are two separate things.  Just ask Fred Goldman.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Dude.  I might be wrong, I didn't read through every single post, but I have seen no one argue that the court of public opinion should replace the rule of law.  And if anyone is saying that, they are dangerous fools - agreed.  I get it.  Outrage culture seemingly can condemn a man these days before they ever get a chance to defend themselves, but that's not really what's happening here.  Watson is free to do whatever he likes, but we do not have to like it and respect it by rooting for the guy 

 

I never said anyone had to root for him. In my very first post in this topic I said that that I understood why some Browns fans felt the way they did. But I care deeply and passionately about upholding the justice system and the rule of law. It has been my career for most of the last 15 years. And that requires it to be the case that the courts are the arbiters of justice. If a person is innocent in the eyes of the law then they should be free to go about their business, however uncomfortable we may find it.  

[Maybe Someday]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree, the system is not perfect, it is not infallible. It is just infinitely better than the alternative. My concern is that over the last 20/30 years you are starting to see a creep towards the import into the criminal justice system of emotion. It needs to be resisted at all costs. 

I think the emotion is starting to creep in more and more due to the overall number of cases where we see someone who has very likely done what they are accused of getting off on a technicality or because they can essentially buy their way out of it. Or even the number of wrongful convictions we see being turned over years later. It happens way too often in the US and as it keeps happening, it erodes the publics confidence in the system. Our system favors the wealthy, always has. 
 

In order to try and prosecute Watson, these women would be dragged though the mud of public opinion and forced to relive the experience over again. That is why so many of the he said she said situations go unprosecuted in this country. In large part the women don’t want to go through it when it’s 50/50 that the accused will be held liable.  How many women get raped only to be called a *****?  Way too many. 
 

This is why so many of us disagree with some of your rationale and it’s likely due to how your exposure differs from ours. You seem to be looking at this as black and white where we see it as a huge gray area because we see it happen locally all the time. 
 

If someone does something horrible/illegal but there is little evidence and everyone is too afraid to testify, are they really innocent? You seem to think they are but many of us have seen it enough to logically conclude they are not.

[Albany,n.y.]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

In no way did I mean to infer the Bills are a squeaky clean operation. But your references are lame. Rogers was jailed for killing a person in an auto wreck while drunk. The only eye-popping thing Richie did was try to chop off his dead fathers head -AFTER he left Buffalo. No criminal charges 

Rogers killed 3 teens.  He was an addict whose addictions eventually killed him.  BEFORE Richie came to the Bills the 2nd time, he had served a league suspension for bullying a teammate, had multiple anger management issues going back to his college years, and had been accused of harrassing women at an event while a member of the Dolphins.  How soon you forget what a controversial signing we made when Richie came back after the whole bullying stuff in Miami.  

[Warcodered]

I don't think the Grand Jury results are as definitive as some may think.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/03/11/deshaun-watson-grand-jury-wanted-to-hear-from-only-one-alleged-victim/#comments

 

Only having 1 accuser testify when multiple are willing to, with multiple cases being brought up seems like an odd decision to me.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, TheBrownBear said:

I don't care to and this isn't about that.  I agree 100% in the dictum of innocent until proven guilty.  It means that Watson has the right to move around freely in society, work, vote, etc., and unless I'm confused, he is being allowed to do all these things.  Innocence in the court of law doesn't mean we have to like the guy, root for him and financially support him.  These are two separate things.  Just ask Fred Goldman.

 

He is. But some of the posturing and grandstanding on social media has suggested he ought not and that was the point I was making when I first interjected in this thread - I understand why the Browns fans feel like they do, but we have to be careful we don't end up saying "well the justice system might say X but the court of public opinion says Y". Nobody has to like him. He has made himself very easy to dislike. 

1 minute ago, Maybe Someday said:

If someone does something horrible/illegal but there is little evidence and everyone is too afraid to testify, are they really innocent? You seem to think they are but many of us have seen it enough to logically conclude they are not.

 

To me innocence is a legal concept. If you want to debate morality go ahead, that isn't my bag. I prefer the law. It is objective, cold and devoid of emotion. 

[Chandler#81]

2 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Rogers killed 3 teens.  He was an addict whose addictions eventually killed him.  BEFORE Richie came to the Bills the 2nd time, he had served a league suspension for bullying a teammate, had multiple anger management issues going back to his college years, and had been accused of harrassing women at an event while a member of the Dolphins.  How soon you forget what a controversial signing we made when Richie came back after the whole bullying stuff in Miami.  

I haven’t forgotten sh!t. That bullying thing was a farce and frankly I derived great humor from it. “accused” of harassing a woman? Not a day goes by my wife doesn’t “accuse” me of it. 
 

Quitcher crying😒

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The alternative is the NFL shuns him and the court of public opinion has essentially decided that the principle of innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant and he should lose his livelihood.

 

People have rightly pointed out that the NFL shunned Kaepernick. And I don't even blame teams for it. He would be an immediate distraction for any team that signed him. Watson is a distraction and a disgusting predator. People have lost their livelihood for much much less, and before already making millions of dollars. If it was 1 or 2 allegations I would agree with you. 22 separate allegations, and a few more that went to the media anonymously because they didn't feel like dragging themselves through the legal progress, is more than enough for me to feel okay with the NFL ostracizing him. Obviously that was never really going to happen. The Browns just went about it in an especially disgusting way and I commend their fans that have jumped ship.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by HappyDays

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

People have rightly pointed out that the NFL shunned Kaepernick. And I don't even blame teams for it. He would be an immediate distraction for any team that signed him. Watson is a distraction and a disgusting predator. People have lost their livelihood for much much less, and before already making millions of dollars. If it was 1 or 2 allegations I would agree with you. 22 separate allegations, and a few more that went to the media anonymously because they didn't feel like dragging themselves through the legal progress, is more than enough for me to feel okay with the NFL ostracizing him. Obviously that was never really going to happen. The Browns just went about it in an especially disgusting way and I commend their fans that have jumped ship.

 

Their fans aren’t really going to jump ship. You know that right

[TheBrownBear]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I never said anyone had to root for him. In my very first post in this topic I said that that I understood why some Browns fans felt the way they did. But I care deeply and passionately about upholding the justice system and the rule of law. It has been my career for most of the last 15 years. And that requires it to be the case that the courts are the arbiters of justice. If a person is innocent in the eyes of the law then they should be free to go about their business, however uncomfortable we may find it.  

And Watson is getting to do that and the Browns as arbiters of his NFL future apparently agree.  All our handwringing and whining about it, which we are completely entitled to in a free society, haven't changed that fact.  So, what's the issue here?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

People have rightly pointed out that the NFL shunned Kaepernick. And I don't even blame teams for it. He would be an immediate distraction for any team that signed him. Watson is a distraction and a disgusting predator. People have lost their livelihood for much much less, and before already making millions of dollars. If it was 1 or 2 allegations I would agree with you. 22 separate allegations, and a few more that went to the media anonymously because they didn't feel like dragging themselves through the legal progress, is more than enough for me to feel okay with the NFL ostracizing him. Obviously that was never really going to happen. The Browns just went about it in an especially disgusting way and I commend their fans that have jumped ship.

 

 

I disagree with you on the bolded most fundamentally. Because however you try and defend that position the reality is it means that the court of public opinion has overridden the court of law. 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

I haven’t forgotten sh!t. That bullying thing was a farce and frankly I derived great humor from it. “accused” of harassing a woman? Not a day goes by my wife doesn’t “accuse” me of it. 
 

Quitcher crying😒

Do those threads still exist? That scandal was outrageous.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 hours ago, Beach said:

this reminds me of the outrage Philly had when they signed Vick.  the outrage vanished when he started winning.

 

Watson should probably be suspended for at minimum 4-6 games to start the season still. It will be a much longer process for Cleveland before they start winning.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBear said:

And Watson is getting to do that and the Browns as arbiters of his NFL future apparently agree.  All our handwringing and whining about it, which we are completely entitled to in a free society, haven't changed that fact.  So, what's the issue here?

 

Ha, well I made that statement and people kept disagreeing with me on elements of it. That is why I am still here. I have not once doubted your entitlement to handwring btw.

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with you on the bolded most fundamentally. Because however you try and defend that position the reality is it means that the court of public opinion has overridden the court of law. 

NFL is an entertainment industry, public opinion absolutely should factor into their decisions.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with you on the bolded most fundamentally. Because however you try and defend that position the reality is it means that the court of public opinion has overridden the court of law. 

GB continued to be the Most American Across The Pond.

 

This man just gets it. Too few do these days. 
 

Side note, where are all the people who were pumped about player empowerment and being able to screw over franchises? Talk about a precedent set. Watson just made the Browns get on their knees and pay his sexual assault fines.

 

”I only like it when it happens to certain people,” amirite?

Edited March 19, 2022 by FireChans

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, Maybe Someday said:

I think the emotion is starting to creep in more and more due to the overall number of cases where we see someone who has very likely done what they are accused of getting off on a technicality or because they can essentially buy their way out of it. Or even the number of wrongful convictions we see being turned over years later. It happens way too often in the US and as it keeps happening, it erodes the publics confidence in the system. Our system favors the wealthy, always has. 
 

In order to try and prosecute Watson, these women would be dragged though the mud of public opinion and forced to relive the experience over again. That is why so many of the he said she said situations go unprosecuted in this country. In large part the women don’t want to go through it when it’s 50/50 that the accused will be held liable.  How many women get raped only to be called a *****?  Way too many. 
 

This is why so many of us disagree with some of your rationale and it’s likely due to how your exposure differs from ours. You seem to be looking at this as black and white where we see it as a huge gray area because we see it happen locally all the time. 

 

So what is the alternative? Are you only going to accept the justice system as the arbiter of criminal guilt and civil liability if they are perfect and never err? Because that will never happen. Contrary to some perceptions the justice system is actually better now than it has ever been at rectifying mistakes and miscarriages of justice which were always there and always will be there. 

3 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

NFL is an entertainment industry, public opinion absolutely should factor into their decisions.

 

It's a fair argument. I just think on a matter such as there where a really important principle is at stake it is right for the NFL to say "innocent until proven guilty". Now he will, and should, face internal league discipline for the reputational damage he has done to the league with this episode which the NFL is allowed to consider under its own processes. I was one of the few arguing he should face more discipline last year in the shape of immediate suspension while a criminal investigation was under way leading up to the decision on indictment. 

[TheBrownBear]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ha, well I made that statement and people kept disagreeing with me on elements of it. That is why I am still here. I have not once doubted your entitlement to handwring btw.

Hey GB, I totally respect you as a poster and hope I haven't offended you.  Not that I don't stand by everything posted, but I was playing a bit of volleyball and taking the piss with you I guess.  And apologies for calling you an autist.  

[Little Dog]

22 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

Don't really care. 20+ accusations is enough to tell me that it's more likely than not that he is not a person I want to root for. Do you know how hard it is to get a criminal conviction for a crime with no physical evidence and based mostly on anecdotal evidence, I doubt it. 

I know a little more than you do, I was never accused by 20 plus . I was accused by one, it never happened, I was vacationing in Puerto Rico with my family the night it happened. 

[GoBills808]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

While I totally understand the reaction of Browns fans because the allegations against Watson are particularly unpleasant I also believe in due legal process. 

 

In the eyes of the law he is an innocent man. Let's see what happens with the civil process. They are likely settled out of court and we might never know the truth but as someone who believes in the legal process while recognising its imperfections I find the court of public opinion very troublesome. 

This isn’t kindergarten, you can make an informed decision without someone else telling you how to feel.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, TheBrownBear said:

Hey GB, I totally respect you as a poster and hope I haven't offended you.  Not that I don't stand by everything posted, but I was playing a bit of volleyball and taking the piss with you I guess.  And apologies for calling you an autist.  

 

No hard feelings. We're all good. 

[HamSandwhich]

1 hour ago, KDIGGZ said:

And what kind of evidence would you like her to provide about a guy getting a private massage who acts inappropriate and gets aroused and keeps trying to get her to have sex with him? She called a friend right after it happened and she has text exchanges of her telling him she would not treat him because he acted inappropriate. All of this is from years prior to any allegations against him. So you think she was faking the text exchanges and telling her friend so that she could set him up in the future to...not sue him and get nothing out of it? Great plan on her part

I can’t know for a fact but that is not anything that says he’s guilty. In my original position, people lie. She does stand to gain something even if she said she didn’t want to gain anything. That’s silly. 

[Mark80]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't believe 22 women are making it up either. But what I believe, what you believe, what anyone believes is irrelevant. We do not get to assess guilt or liability. There is a system and a process for that. Once you start saying "ah yes but in this case..." then you open any case up to others taking the same approach because they believe in something different. The justice system is imperfect, but it is a million times preferable to the court of public opinion. 

 

Not necessarily true.  There is also the court of public opinion and there this dude is a guilty as they come.  I mean, come on, you telling me you think OJ is innocent because the law said he was?  Didn't think so.  He is clearly a scumbag that NO team should be willing to touch if they at all respected their female fan base.  Horrific move.

[Albany,n.y.]

Just now, Chandler#81 said:

I haven’t forgotten sh!t. That bullying thing was a farce and frankly I derived great humor from it. “accused” of harassing a woman? Not a day goes by my wife doesn’t “accuse” me of it. 
 

Quitcher crying😒

So your answer is the bullying was a farce, the women who accused him of sexual harassment just didn't understand him & all his anger management issues dating back to when he was booted from Nebraska mean nothing?  OK.  Let's review his college days, which you convieniently didn't mention:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richie_Incognito

 

In the spring of 2003, Incognito was involved in a fight during practice and was suspended indefinitely by head coach Frank Solich. By this time, Solich and his staff were concerned enough about Incognito's behavior to send him to the Menninger Clinic in Topeka, Kansas for anger management treatment.[9] Incognito was reinstated by the start of the season and started 13 games at left tackle. He was rewarded with a first-team All-Big 12 selection by the Associated Press.[7] However, during the Huskers' victory in the 2003 Alamo Bowl, he was accused of spitting on two Michigan State players.[8]

In February 2004, Incognito was involved in a fight at a party and was charged with three counts of assault. In June, he was found guilty on one of the misdemeanor assault charges and paid a $500 fine. Incognito was shifted to center during the 2004 preseason camp. He entered the season with high expectations, listed on a number of preseason lists as a top center and named to the watch list for the Rimington Trophy going to the best center in college football.[10] On September 1, however, he was suspended indefinitely for repeated violations of team rules. The final straw for new coach Bill Callahan came when Incognito was once again involved in a fight in the locker room. Within a few weeks, Incognito withdrew from all classes at Nebraska and left Lincoln.[9][11]

In late September, he transferred to the University of Oregon, only to be dismissed from the team a week later. Head coach Mike Bellotti said Incognito failed to meet the conditions he had agreed to meet before his arrival in Eugene. Bellotti didn't elaborate, but Incognito had been required to complete an anger-management course and adhere to a strict code of conduct.

 

At the 2005 NFL Combine, Incognito impressed scouts by being "the strongest and most explosive player in attendance". However, during a drill, Incognito stumbled and was carted off the field with a knee injury.[13] The injury was later found to be a minor sprain that would have no long-term effect.[14] Despite his impressive physical tools, ESPN Scouts Inc. noted "his inability to control his emotions both on and off the field is such a significant concern that he'll likely slip to the later rounds of the draft."[14] Years later, then-Kansas City Chiefs general manager Scott Pioli, who was the player personnel director of the New England Patriots in 2005, said that he did not even consider taking Incognito then, "and I don't want him now" in Kansas City. Pioli had long been known for drafting players with checkered pasts. At the same time, former Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungy said that Incognito was on the Colts' "DNDC" ("do not draft because of character") list in 2005.

 

On to the pros, once again BEFORE his Bills 2nd stint (and some before his 1st)

2009. On December 13, during the first half of a 47–7 loss to the Tennessee Titans, Incognito drew two 15-yard penalties for headbutting Titans players. Head coach Steve Spagnuolo benched him for the second half, and the two got into a heated confrontation on the sidelines. It was the second time Incognito had been benched for losing his composure; he had been pulled from the season opener against Seattle for two personal fouls. However, the Titans incident was the last straw; the Rams waived him two days after the game.[21] In 2013, former Rams general manager Billy Devaney told ESPN that Spagnuolo had given Incognito numerous chances to clean up his act, and had put him on notice that the Rams would cut ties with him if he couldn't control his anger.[22]

The two personal fouls led to a $50,000 fine from the NFL and a letter from the league office warning him that "future infractions of the types you have committed may lead to increased disciplinary action up to and including suspension."[23] In four years with the Rams from 2006 to 2009, Incognito drew 38 penalties, including seven unnecessary roughness calls, more than any other player during that span.

 

Bullying scandal and other controversies
In November 2013, ESPN reported on Incognito's alleged role in harassment of teammate Jonathan Martin.[51] According to Incognito, he had reached out to Martin after he had left the team, and the two had an amicable text exchange, in which Incognito claims Martin said he did not blame him or his teammates personally.[52] Incognito subsequently expressed outrage over the report, going on Twitter to demand that ESPN's Adam Schefter "Stop slandering my name."[53]

Schefter and Chris Mortensen reported on ESPN on November 3 that Martin fears "retribution, primarily from Incognito." The article goes on to state that "the matter is absolutely under review and preliminarily identifies Incognito as an alleged offender in multiple incidents of possible harassment and bullying over the past two seasons, with Martin not the only victim." Schefter and Mortensen also cited unnamed sources that one of the significant allegations is an incident during the summer of 2013 when Incognito got Martin to contribute $15,000 to help finance a trip to Las Vegas by a group of Dolphins, even though Martin preferred not to, "fearing the consequences if he did not hand over the money."[54]

On November 3, Mike Garafolo reported on Fox Sports 1 that Incognito is alleged to have sent Martin threatening and racially charged messages. He also reported that the team and league—rather than the players' association—has been asked to investigate.[55] That same day, Jason La Canfora of CBS Sports reported that Incognito "has had to be reprimanded in the past for his actions toward team employees," citing an unnamed source.[56] La Canfora and Schefter subsequently reported statements from an unnamed source that the team and the league are now in possession of highly disturbing texts and voicemails in which Incognito used a racial slur against Martin, and disturbing text and voice exchanges including "a reference to tracking down members of Martin's family and harming them" and even threatening to kill Martin. According to La Canfora, Incognito's alleged harassment of Martin had gotten to the point that Martin actually feared for his safety, and felt that leaving the team was his only option.[57][58]

Just hours after the Dolphins' game against the Cincinnati Bengals, the Dolphins suspended Incognito indefinitely for conduct detrimental to the team. The Dolphins also asked the NFL to join their own internal investigation of the matter. According to Schefter, the final straw for the Dolphins was a highly graphic voicemail Incognito left in April 2013, in which Incognito called Martin a "half-nig*er piece of s*it," threatened to slap Martin's mother across the face and even uttered a death threat against Martin. Until then, the Dolphins had publicly maintained the charges against Incognito were pure speculation. Schefter said that as late as the afternoon of November 3, the Dolphins didn't even know the voicemail existed. Within hours of hearing the tape, Schefter said, the Dolphins had suspended Incognito.[59] The next day, a Dolphins source told The Miami Herald that Incognito would never play another down for the Dolphins again, and that the team intended to cut ties with him at the earliest opportunity.[60]

On November 5, the (Fort Lauderdale) Sun-Sentinel quoted "multiple sources" as saying that Incognito may have taken orders from Dolphins coaches to "toughen up" Martin too far. The Sun-Sentinel reported that the controversial voice mail message that ultimately led to Incognito's suspension was made after Martin missed two days of the team's voluntary workout program. The coaches asked Incognito—by this time, reckoned as the leader of the offensive line—to make a call that would "get him into the fold."[61] On November 7, reports emerged that Miami GM Jeff Ireland reacted to the allegations by suggesting that Martin punch Incognito[62] – however, rather than take things that far, Martin chose to leave the team.

Under the NFL's collective bargaining agreement, Incognito was initially slated to sit out for a maximum of four weeks. At the end of that time, the Dolphins would have had to either release him or find some way to keep him off the field, given earlier statements that he would never appear in a Dolphins uniform again. However, the league and the Dolphins agreed to extend the suspension for another two weeks with pay. On December 16, the league and the Dolphins announced that Incognito would remain suspended for the remainder of the season.[63]

On February 3, 2014, the text messages exchanged between Martin and Incognito were leaked. It is thought that "the leak came from Incognito or someone close to him, because the text messages tend to support the notion that Incognito and Martin were friends. Moreover, nothing in the Incognito text messages suggests harassment or bullying of Martin." On February 4, 2014, Incognito's 3-month long suspension ended.[64]

Investigator's report
On February 14, 2014, lawyer Ted Wells released a report (NFL summary) following an investigation into the matter ordered by the NFL. The investigation concluded that Incognito, and to a lesser extent fellow offensive linemen John Jerry and Mike Pouncey, bullied Martin, yet another (unnamed) Dolphins offensive lineman, and also a Dolphins staff member, an unnamed assistant trainer.[65][66]

The report also concluded that Incognito, Jerry, and Pouncey made severe racial slurs towards the assistant trainer, and Incognito and Jerry even taunted him by saying that they had sex with his girlfriend. On December 7, 2012, the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey donned traditional Japanese headbands featuring a rising sun emblem (which the assistant trainer had given them) and jokingly threatened to harm the assistant trainer physically in retaliation for the Pearl Harbor attack. The assistant trainer, who is from Japan, confided in Martin that he was upset about the Pearl Harbor comments, finding them derogatory toward his heritage.[67]

Further, the report concluded regarding Martin's "mental health problems, alcohol and drug use and... concerns about poor performance on the field" that "his text messages and other evidence demonstrate that these are real factors, not issues Incognito has manufactured out of whole cloth."[68] The report noted a published newspaper report regarding Martin's difficulties with the position change the Dolphins made with him days before he left the team and alleged harassment. The Miami Herald noted that the Dolphins were concerned about Martin's reaction to the move, and noted that "It was clear Martin isn't thrilled about the move." "You can approach this two different ways," Martin said. "You can go in the tank and be one of those guys who ***** and moans and is a cancer in the locker room, or you can be a guy who goes out there and can be a professional and plays as hard as I can."[69]

Allegations of dirty play
Incognito has garnered attention over the years for perceived dirty play amongst NFL players, coaches, and fans. He has been alleged to have gouged players' eyes, punched players, and made illegal tackles on a regular basis.[70] In 2009, NFL players voted Incognito as the dirtiest player in the league, according to a Sporting News poll.[71]

Response
After the bullying scandal and his release from the Dolphins organization, Incognito sought help through therapy when he voluntarily checked himself into an Arizona treatment facility.[72] After months of treatment, Incognito described his experience and growth as "very difficult" because "there's no doubt things were said and things were texted and things were done where I clearly crossed the line...that's part of the learning process I went through, and just growing up and maturing and being aware of your surroundings and who your audience is."[73]

After sitting out the 2014 season, Rex Ryan and the Buffalo Bills signed Incognito for the 2015 season with the intent to "build a bully".[74] According to teammate Eric Wood, Incognito was seen as an "ultimate professional" and "quickly became a locker room favorite".[75] Incognito re-elevated his game and helped the Buffalo Bills lead the league in rushing yards and yards-per-carry.[74]

Prior to the 2016 season, Incognito sat down with Colin Cowherd for an interview on the radio show The Herd where he talked about his relationship with Jonathan Martin since the bullying scandal stating their relationship ended that day, and that "You learn from it you move on".[76]

Involuntary commitment
On May 23, 2018, Incognito was placed on an "involuntary psychiatric hold" for his part in an altercation at a Life Time Fitness health club in Boca Raton, Florida. Incognito allegedly threw a tennis ball and a dumbbell at another gym patron.[77] He was reported to be in an "altered, paranoid state," suspecting that he was being spied on.[78] On June 6, 2018, he was back in training, hoping to get back to the NFL.[79]

Funeral home incident and arrest
On August 20, 2018, Incognito was arrested and taken into custody after an incident at a funeral home where he threatened to shoot the employees while making funeral arrangements for his father. Police seized two Glocks, three rifles, and a suppressor for a handgun in Incognito's truck.[80] Employees told Scottsdale police that Incognito wanted his father's head cut off for research purposes, and that he had walked through the funeral home punching caskets and throwing objects.[81] Incognito was charged with disorderly conduct and making threats.[82]  

 

Now on to harassing women, not in Wiki:https://www.vice.com/en/article/qkgq4v/richie-incognito-guard-accused-of-sexual-battery-with-a-golf-club

In May 2012, an anonymous woman filed a police report against Richie Incognito for battery after he allegedly "used his golf club to touch her by rubbing it up against her *****, then up her stomach then to her chest" at an event in Aventura, FL. Incognito, who was allegedly drunk, then knocked the woman's sunglasses off her head, rubbed his genitals against her buttocks, and emptied a bottle of water in her face, according to the report. Incognito was not charged, but the Miami Dolphins fined him $50,000 for "conduct deemed detrimental to the organization."

 

in June 2012, "Incognito was accused of making inappropriate remarks to a patron at a Miami restaurant and entering her vehicle without permission." The Dolphins conducted its own investigation of the alleged incident but concluded that the allegations could not be substantiated. However, it was enough for NFL Commissioner Goodell to summons Incognito in July 2012 to discuss his "troubling pattern" of behavior, although no additional disciplinary action was taken.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bongo]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But what I believe, what you believe, what anyone believes is irrelevant. We do not get to assess guilt or liability. There is a system and a process for that.

You are an incredibly articulate and well reasoned individual, Gunner. Your voice of reason is a very good thing on this board.

 

That said, I don’t agree with the above. Do we get to sentence them legally? No. People can’t throw him in jail or worse because of their belief. But every individual can make up their own mind of what they believe. And once done, they can choose to support that individual and the business they work for or not depending on their judgement, even if it is flawed. 
 

In this instance, Browns fans can choose to support the Browns and give them their money or not regardless of the court results. In the end it may not matter. The Browns may still be successful and profitable as in the case of Big Ben.  But whether that ends up happening or not, each individual can believe as they choose and assess their own guilt and liability. If I’m a Brown’s fan and don’t believe the verdict, I don’t personally need to just accept it and spend my money on him/the Browns. It is free will. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Mark80 said:

 

Not necessarily true.  There is also the court of public opinion and there this dude is a guilty as they come.  I mean, come on, you telling me you think OJ is innocent because the law said he was?  Didn't think so.  He is clearly a scumbag that NO team should be willing to touch if they at all respected their female fan base.  Horrific move.

 

Yes there is. Exactly what I think we should be seeking to avoid. 

Just now, Bongo said:

You are an incredibly articulate and well reasoned individual, Gunner. Your voice of reason is a very good thing on this board.

 

That said, I don’t agree with the above. Do we get to sentence them legally? No. People can’t throw him in jail or worse because of their belief. But every individual can make up their own mind of what they believe. And once done, they can choose to support that individual and the business they work for or not depending on their judgement, even if it is flawed. 
 

In this instance, Browns fans can choose to support the Browns and give them their money or not regardless of the court results. In the end it may not matter. The Browns may still be successful and profitable as in the case of Big Ben.  But whether that ends up happening or not, each individual can believe as they choose and assess their own guilt and liability. If I’m a Brown’s fan and don’t believe the verdict, I don’t personally need to just accept it and spend my money on him/the Browns. It is free will. 

 

I agree with all of that. Never disagreed that people can have their own opinion and make decisions with their own money as they see fit. 

[mabden]

FWIW, my BIL is a 20 year Browns season ticket holder.  He is livid; the owner is a piece of trash, he did Mayfield, Mayfield should not have played last year because of his injury, (blames the coaches,)this is all b@llsh!t, and to top it off, mortgage the team for a piece of trash rapist.  Add in letting quality players walk or trade away.

 

Don't know if he will give up his seats and/or join the Bills Mafia.  I invited him up for the Bills - Browns game, but it might be too soon.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, mabden said:

FWIW, my BIL is a 20 year Browns season ticket holder.  He is livid; the owner is a piece of trash, he did Mayfield, Mayfield should not have played last year because of his injury, (blames the coaches,)this is all b@llsh!t, and to top it off, mortgage the team for a piece of trash rapist.  Add in letting quality players walk or trade away.

 

Don't know if he will give up his seats and/or join the Bills Mafia.  I invited him up for the Bills - Browns game, but it might be too soon.

He will stay a Browns fans, keep his tickets and cheer for Watson.

[MJS]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

People can have a view of something somebody has or hasn't done but when I talk about guilt I talk about it as a legal concept of the criminal law. It is a matter for a criminal court and only a criminal court. It is not a matter for the court of public opinion. People can believe whatever they like. They can choose to act in whatever way they like on the basis of that, but it doesn't change the legal reality. 

And this discussion has nothing to do with legality. We are talking about fans choosing not to root for the Browns because of what they believe their new QB has done. They are fully justified for that.

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

It’s not really “determining” guilt. It’s having an opinion that someone is guilty. And we know about opinions…

Look up the definition of "determine" and you will find that is exactly what it is.

[klos63]

Quote

If they win with him, they'll change their tune.

 

[HappyDays]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with you on the bolded most fundamentally. Because however you try and defend that position the reality is it means that the court of public opinion has overridden the court of law. 

 

I don't believe in black and white principles. I don't agree that it is always true that the court of public opinion overriding the court of law is wrong. The criminal burden of proof is not the same as my burden of proof. I'm glad that as a society we have incredibly high standards for judging whether an individual deserves to be thrown in prison for several years. I would rather let 1,000 guilty men walk free than let a single innocent man go to prison. So trust me when I say I know the principle you're defending and I agree with it wholeheartedly. But that standard is talking about criminal punishment. Watson being denied the privilege of being an NFL QB is a substantially lower punishment and the burden of proof is equally lower in my mind. If an angry mob rounded up Watson and held him hostage in a jail cell for 3 years that would be different. Employers make decisions about their employees all the time for actions that aren't even illegal. If I post hate speech on my Facebook page I won't be arrested but I will certainly lose my job and my place in society. Would you consider that to be the court of public opinion overriding the court of law?

[KDIGGZ]

16 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

I can’t know for a fact but that is not anything that says he’s guilty. In my original position, people lie. She does stand to gain something even if she said she didn’t want to gain anything. That’s silly. 

Sometimes you have to use common sense. Why would a massage therapist who has a very successful business make up this story, immediately call their friend about it, have text messages showing her telling him he was inappropriate and she can't treat him? This was years before the other allegations, she didn't know he was like that. If it wasn't true he would respond saying what the heck are you talking about? Or she would try to sue him but she hasn't because she doesn't want to lose any business by going public.

 

I know someone who was sexually assaulted. They also did not want to go to the authorities, they just wanted to forget it ever happened. If you go to the authorities you have to relive it over and over again. For these 22+ women to come forward it's incredibly brave of them and maybe some of them are lying but I highly doubt all of them are and considering there are others that didn't even come forward shows there's more to this than we might even know. And now this guy represents the city of Cleveland and is the highest paid player in the league in terms of guaranteed money. Not only the face of the Browns but one of the faces of the entire NFL!

[NewEra]

22 minutes ago, Bongo said:

You are an incredibly articulate and well reasoned individual, Gunner. Your voice of reason is a very good thing on this board.

 

That said, I don’t agree with the above. Do we get to sentence them legally? No. People can’t throw him in jail or worse because of their belief. But every individual can make up their own mind of what they believe. And once done, they can choose to support that individual and the business they work for or not depending on their judgement, even if it is flawed. 
 

In this instance, Browns fans can choose to support the Browns and give them their money or not regardless of the court results. In the end it may not matter. The Browns may still be successful and profitable as in the case of Big Ben.  But whether that ends up happening or not, each individual can believe as they choose and assess their own guilt and liability. If I’m a Brown’s fan and don’t believe the verdict, I don’t personally need to just accept it and spend my money on him/the Browns. It is free will. 

I’ve only skimmed the madness in this thread but i like this thread the most. 

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't believe in black and white principles. I don't agree that it is always true that the court of public opinion overriding the court of law is wrong. The criminal burden of proof is not the same as my burden of proof. I'm glad that as a society we have incredibly high standards for judging whether an individual deserves to be thrown in prison for several years. I would rather let 1,000 guilty men walk free than let a single innocent man go to prison. So trust me when I say I know the principle you're defending and I agree with it wholeheartedly. But that standard is talking about criminal punishment. Watson being denied the privilege of being an NFL QB is a substantially lower punishment and the burden of proof is equally lower in my mind. If an angry mob rounded up Watson and held him hostage in a jail cell for 3 years that would be different. Employers make decisions about their employees all the time for actions that aren't even illegal. If I post hate speech on my Facebook page I won't be arrested but I will certainly lose my job and my place in society. Would you consider that to be the court of public opinion overriding the court of law?

You’re arguing with someone who thinks Bill Cosby, after admitting under oath to drugging and raping multiple women, is innocent.

[Maybe Someday]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So what is the alternative? Are you only going to accept the justice system as the arbiter of criminal guilt and civil liability if they are perfect and never err? Because that will never happen. Contrary to some perceptions the justice system is actually better now than it has ever been at rectifying mistakes and miscarriages of justice which were always there and always will be there. 

I do agree that things are not perfect and never will be.

 

It doesn’t change the fact that I firmly believe Watson has done what he has been accused of and think that guilt doesn’t only apply in the court of law. I also have no issues with people holding him accountable for his actions since the courts cannot. 
 

Take care GB. I do appreciate your takes. Hope to chat with you again on a much more enjoyable topic. 
 

Go BILLS. 

[HappyDays]

53 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Because today that is Deshaun Watson who may or may not have done some of the things he is accused of but once you undermine that core principle then what if tomorrow it is a local business owner or school teacher or whoever else who loses their employment to mob rule.

 

I wanted to come back to this point because the answer is that you judge everything on a case by case basis. If 22 massage therapists come forward and say that they were sexually assaulted by a local teacher I would expect that teacher to lose his job. You yourself have admitted that there was never a practical chance of Watson being found to be criminally liable for his actions because in a "he said she said" case it is impossible to meet the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt." So you seem to be saying that in the case of sexual assault there is nothing society can do to punish those responsible, and I just don't agree with that. For cases like this where an individual has shown themselves to be incapable of functioning appropriately in society, some form of societal exclusion may in fact be the only possible method of punishment without upending our legal system. If it was just one person coming forward and accusing Watson of this behavior then I would 100% agree with you. But 22+... I don't know exactly where my line is but it's certainly far short of that number.