No huddle offense: considerations

[Italian Bills]

I began watching football in late 80ies, i remember when the Bills were feared for the no huddle offense. I’m wondering if this could be a way to give us a more dangerous offense.
 

Personally i would love to use it very much more, to speed up the rhythm could affect defenses sets and, avoid the pressure on Allen and give us a different option on offense. What you think ? And again, we have the right men to use the no huddle offense ? 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Italian Bills

[Doc Brown]

They've run it before but I'd like to see them run it with more frequency.  Josh, like most qb's, are better when they get into a rhythm.  The no huddle can provide that and it's more difficult for defenses to change personnel and adjust on the fly.  On the flip side, a quick three and out in a no huddle isn't ideal against a team like the Patriots who can wear a defense out with those long and methodical drives.  You've got to pick your spots to run it but I agree that it could be something this offense does more.

[Italian Bills]

6 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

They've run it before but I'd like to see them run it with more frequency.  Josh, like most qb's, are better when they get into a rhythm.  The no huddle can provide that and it's more difficult for defenses to change personnel and adjust on the fly.  On the flip side, a quick three and out in a no huddle isn't ideal against a team like the Patriots who can wear a defense out with those long and methodical drives.  You've got to pick your spots to run it but I agree that it could be something this offense does more.

You right… maybe it’s risky, but exactly like you said, i mean that is something we could use more, not always, to give defenses less time to adjust and harass Allen.  

[simpleman]

Just wondering, not declaring. Questions:

 

Wouldn't the no huddle work better with a team with very good RBs and TEs and a strong running game. WRs running down the field deep will be winded quickly and need time to get back to setup properly, unless you quickly sub them out between plays, which requires excellent organization, practice, preparation and discipline by the coaches and players. Lots of pre-snap formation penalties otherwise. You would require real conditioning, discipline and excellent quality depth at WR. Do we have good enough  quality RBs, and enough depth at WR?

 

How important is having a good OL to making the hurry up work?

 

The Kelly era teams made the hurry up so effective because they had Kelly, Thomas and a good Oline. We have Allen, but not sure about the rest of this current team and the skill required of the coaches. Is the WR depth good enough, and do they have the stamina and conditioning to do it? Do we have good enough coaching with the game management skills and ability to keep the team disciplined enough?

Edited December 5, 2021 by simpleman

[stosh64]

I know I would love to see Allen call his own plays.

[Bubba Gump]

I think Diggs and Beasley could thrive in a no huddle. I'm not so sure the o-line could keep up with it. They wouldn't have to block as long, but they don't seem like the right group for a no huddle. The 90's Bills had the perfect personnel to run it. Josh just needs a great o-line in front of him. If he had another second or two, he would light up defenses.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Bubba Gump

[GETTOTHE50]

who ran the last no huddle? was it trent edwards? i remember i kept screaming HUDDLE UP GODDAMMIT

 

but yea, id like to see josh and the crew give it a go

Edited December 5, 2021 by GETTOTHE50

[CSBill]

3 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

I began watching football in late 80ies, i remember when the Bills were feared for the no huddle offense. I’m wondering if this could be a way to give us a more dangerous offense.
 

Personally i would love to use it very much more, to speed up the rhythm could affect defenses sets and, avoid the pressure on Allen and give us a different option on offense. What you think ? And again, we have the right men to use the no huddle offense ? 

 

Agree! I was thinking about this the other day; find your best base personnel and throw it in 2-3 times a game. Especially when the other team is rolling out their 2nd unit, or making subs, to give people a rest. I think the Bills are built for it now with the o-line back to 100% (to someone's point above, our RB's are good at picking up blocks and catching the ball, and we do now have an elite TE), it could be a big advantage at the right time.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by CSBill

[Utah John]

If you watch the glory years Bills games, you'll see that for the no-huddle to work you need a RB like Thurman Thomas running behind a strong O line, plus an excellent QB and receivers.  We have the latter two components but not the former two.  Also I think the way plays are called is really different.  Daboll is cooking up route combinations and blocking schemes as the game is underway, and giving that info to Allen.  Kelly often called his own plays, which he could do well at that time but it's a lot more complicated now.

 

So, no.  I don't think it's a good idea.

[Italian Bills]

48 minutes ago, Utah John said:

If you watch the glory years Bills games, you'll see that for the no-huddle to work you need a RB like Thurman Thomas running behind a strong O line, plus an excellent QB and receivers.  We have the latter two components but not the former two.  Also I think the way plays are called is really different.  Daboll is cooking up route combinations and blocking schemes as the game is underway, and giving that info to Allen.  Kelly often called his own plays, which he could do well at that time but it's a lot more complicated now.

 

So, no.  I don't think it's a good idea.

Yes… Allen should have more freedom to call plays here and there, based in what he’s seeing in the fiele and feeling at the moment. 
 

The no huddle would speed up our rhythm and create tons of troubles for defenses.

But i agree that maybe, to do that, you need a couple of very good backs.

 

I just remember very well the excitement during our drives… it was a beauty to see and enjoy. 
 

Let’s take back that strenght to our Bills !!! 

[SoCal Deek]

Two quick comments:

First, it was having the weapon of Thurman Thomas that made the no huddle work, not Kelly.

Second: I’m pretty sure Josh has the ability to change any play at the line of scrimmage. Remember, back in Kelly’s era they didn’t have speakers in the helmet so Jim was on his own out there.

 

[Italian Bills]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Two quick comments:

First, it was having the weapon of Thurman Thomas that made the no huddle work, not Kelly.

Second: I’m pretty sure Josh has the ability to change any play at the line of scrimmage. Remember, back in Kelly’s era they didn’t have speakers in the helmet so Jim was on his own out there.

 

Who knows… maybe with the no huddle our backs would benefit thanks to that and would play better… 

[BuffaloFan68]

6 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

They've run it before but I'd like to see them run it with more frequency.  Josh, like most qb's, are better when they get into a rhythm.  The no huddle can provide that and it's more difficult for defenses to change personnel and adjust on the fly.  On the flip side, a quick three and out in a no huddle isn't ideal against a team like the Patriots who can wear a defense out with those long and methodical drives.  You've got to pick your spots to run it but I agree that it could be something this offense does more.

Except the only long drives the Pats will have against us tomorrow, will end in turn-overs. 😁

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Two quick comments:

First, it was having the weapon of Thurman Thomas that made the no huddle work, not Kelly.

Second: I’m pretty sure Josh has the ability to change any play at the line of scrimmage. Remember, back in Kelly’s era they didn’t have speakers in the helmet so Jim was on his own out there.

 

 

Correct.  Without a top RB who can also catch the ball, that ("No Huddle", not "hurry up") Offense won't work.

[Italian Bills]

22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Correct.  Without a top RB who can also catch the ball, that ("No Huddle", not "hurry up") Offense won't work.

To me, Breida can catch the ball. 

[davefan66]

In general?  Yep, should run it a bit more.  Keep defenses on the field and unable to change personal.

 

Tomorrow night? Nope.  Need Josh to be in control from the coin toss on.  Don’t need 3 and outs.

[Haslett_Stomp]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Two quick comments:

First, it was having the weapon of Thurman Thomas that made the no huddle work, not Kelly.

Second: I’m pretty sure Josh has the ability to change any play at the line of scrimmage. Remember, back in Kelly’s era they didn’t have speakers in the helmet so Jim was on his own out there.

 

 

Thurman and McKeller.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Haslett_Stomp

[Nextmanup]

We have done it at times, but I would like to see it more myself.

 

My main concern is this: back in the Kelly era, we had an outstanding offensive line of lean linemen who could move and run with athleticism.

 

Now they are all lard asses and easily 30-40-50 pounds overweight, and it's all just blubber.

 

I'm not sure they could keep up with a quick, no huddle attack; they'd all be winded.

 

 

[Italian Bills]

17 minutes ago, Haslett_Stomp said:

 

Thurman and McKeller.

Kenneth Davis maybe.

[Steptide]

I have to disagree a bit to the people saying you need a good running back. I don't think you do, especially if you're a pass happy team. Part of running the no huddle is to keep the defense from making substitutions. It keeps the defense on their toes and theoretically wears them down. I'm all for the bills running the no huddle in their current state. I think part of the reason they don't run it is because it doesn't give Allen a chance to read the defense. I think daboll would rather Allen comes to the line and reads the defense, rather than going up tempo and risking mistakes/turnovers. I'm all for the no huddle though 

[loyal2dagame]

If we catch New England in a personnel  mismatch,  the Bills should immediately go no huddle from that play on until they stop us. 

[Italian Bills]

1 hour ago, Steptide said:

I have to disagree a bit to the people saying you need a good running back. I don't think you do, especially if you're a pass happy team. Part of running the no huddle is to keep the defense from making substitutions. It keeps the defense on their toes and theoretically wears them down. I'm all for the bills running the no huddle in their current state. I think part of the reason they don't run it is because it doesn't give Allen a chance to read the defense. I think daboll would rather Allen comes to the line and reads the defense, rather than going up tempo and risking mistakes/turnovers. I'm all for the no huddle though 

Great to see many of you loved the no huddle O and that think it could work for us. Let’s scary defenses with this super aggressive scheme letting them know that we always play for their throat! 

[Old Coot]

Bills might need to change their system in which Josh makes the Oline calls to go no huddle.  In the Kelly no-huddle Kent Hull the center made the Oline calls.  

[Mr. WEO]

7 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

To me, Breida can catch the ball. 

to you!

 

ok

[Beerball]

12 hours ago, stosh64 said:

I know I would love to see Allen call his own plays.

I have three words for you: hero ball

 

You do not want Allen calling plays out there.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

16 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

I began watching football in late 80ies, i remember when the Bills were feared for the no huddle offense. I’m wondering if this could be a way to give us a more dangerous offense.
 

Personally i would love to use it very much more, to speed up the rhythm could affect defenses sets and, avoid the pressure on Allen and give us a different option on offense. What you think ? And again, we have the right men to use the no huddle offense ? 

Thanks for picking up this banner OP, I too grew up on a heavy dose of No Huddle Bills that tore a new one through the AFC for many years. You have to have the right QB for it, and Josh can definitely do it. A great way to get into scoring drive rhythm—but the downsides include stretching your D times on the field and that’s especially true on 3 and outs. However, overall I feel like there would be more pluses than minuses. 

[loyal2dagame]

2 hours ago, Beerball said:

I have three words for you: hero ball

 

You do not want Allen calling plays out there.

He calls the audibles.  What's the difference? He can either read defenses or he can't

[LABILLBACKER]

15 hours ago, Utah John said:

If you watch the glory years Bills games, you'll see that for the no-huddle to work you need a RB like Thurman Thomas running behind a strong O line, plus an excellent QB and receivers.  We have the latter two components but not the former two.  Also I think the way plays are called is really different.  Daboll is cooking up route combinations and blocking schemes as the game is underway, and giving that info to Allen.  Kelly often called his own plays, which he could do well at that time but it's a lot more complicated now.

 

So, no.  I don't think it's a good idea.

Exactly,  we have the superstar qb and great wrs. Just zero threat from our OL and RB's. Running a no huddle more would help but we're nowhere equipped to do it.

[Since1981]

Main advantage of K gun was a limited offensive formation (ala Thurman) then forces D to stay in compromised formation and tire out. I’m not convinced today’s game could have an offense do this reliably to win. Our team form could not. 
 

btw, I’ve always felt it was why we lost the super bowls. Kelly was smart but the other top tier coaches smarter. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

1 hour ago, Since1981 said:

Main advantage of K gun was a limited offensive formation (ala Thurman) then forces D to stay in compromised formation and tire out. I’m not convinced today’s game could have an offense do this reliably to win. Our team form could not. 
 

btw, I’ve always felt it was why we lost the super bowls. Kelly was smart but the other top tier coaches smarter. 

But it must be added that logically must mean Kelly still outsmarted all top tier coaches outside of the immediate SB opponents? But then, the Bills also defeated each and every SB opponent coach in the regular season either the year of or basically right after the same SB appearances—so just sayin, it’s complicated. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

I began watching football in late 80ies, i remember when the Bills were feared for the no huddle offense. I’m wondering if this could be a way to give us a more dangerous offense.
 

Personally i would love to use it very much more, to speed up the rhythm could affect defenses sets and, avoid the pressure on Allen and give us a different option on offense. What you think ? And again, we have the right men to use the no huddle offense ? 

 

The Bills run no-huddle at times.  About 12% of our snaps

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2021_splits.htm#snap_type_splits

 

This is about 2x as much as we ran no-huddle last season, but we ran it about 10% of the time in 2019.

 

It has plusses and minuses. 

 

A big drawback, which the players talked about in some interviews back in 2019, is that our playbook is fairly extensive and involves a lot of route and protection options.   To communicate in the no-huddle, those have to be summarized for each play in one or two words, along with a code for an audible play.  No big deal, just make the team memorize that list of words, right?  Well, except that if the defense can hear them, they have to be changed each week, which adds another layer of stress and work onto the players.  Otherwise the Defense hears "Dalmation!" and knows what play the Bills ran the last time that was the play call.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Since1981 said:

Main advantage of K gun was a limited offensive formation (ala Thurman) then forces D to stay in compromised formation and tire out. I’m not convinced today’s game could have an offense do this reliably to win. Our team form could not. 
 

btw, I’ve always felt it was why we lost the super bowls. Kelly was smart but the other top tier coaches smarter. 

 

We actually run the same formation a lot.  Last year was 71% in (1,1) set with 1 RB and 1 TE, Diggs Davis and Beasley as the WR.  This year that's down a bit, but it's still more than half our plays.

 

I think our playbook is a lot more complicated than the KGun playbook was, though.

[sven233]

So, here's the thing about the no huddle.......  I think the game has changed so much through the years that it wouldn't be quite as effective as it was a couple decades ago.  Defenses are in better shape and are much faster overall.  They are also prepared much more now as to how to handle it because of so many situational practices and study.  Also, coaches have figured out strategies on how to slow it down when it does begin to be effective.  They'll purposely have guys fake injuries and other types of in game gamesmanship to slow it down.  Coaches are also a lot more organized and better at getting substitutions in quicker than they used to be.  So, the days of running it as a full time system I think are gone.

 

Now, that is not to say I wouldn't run it more than what we do.  There have been several times this season alone where I thought this team could benefit from a change of pace to try and get in a rhythm.  We've done it a couple times, but I think we could use it more than we do, especially if things aren't going well on offense.  I think with a QB like Allen, it would be very effective in stretches if you let Josh be Josh.  What I mean is that you have to be OK with letting Josh run the ball.  The advantage of a no huddle in theory is that you keep the same defensive personnel on the field and limit they types of defensive looks they can show you.  So, in our case, I think you could get a big advantage at times by letting Josh make his own decisions.  Not necessarily call his own plays, but be able to call his own number on any play.  Get guys out in a pattern and if his first or second read isn't there and he sees a lane, encourage him to take off.  He's big, strong and fast.  Him throwing the ball around and taking off quickly if he doesn't see what he wants down the field could keep the defense off balance and wear on them over time and could turn into big chunks if the no huddle is used at the right times and in the right way. 

 

So, while I wouldn't want to use it as a base offense, there are definitely times I would go to it to keep teams off balance.

Edited December 6, 2021 by sven233

[Beerball]

15 hours ago, loyal2dagame said:

He calls the audibles.  

He does so poorly.

[LABILLBACKER]

11 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

But it must be added that logically must mean Kelly still outsmarted all top tier coaches outside of the immediate SB opponents? But then, the Bills also defeated each and every SB opponent coach in the regular season either the year of or basically right after the same SB appearances—so just sayin, it’s complicated. 

We had the misfortune and bad luck of facing 3 amazing offensive lines during the SB run. They were able to dominate our D and manipulate the TOP.  We should've toned down the K gun a little so we could wear out their defenses a little. We don't have the OL to run it, nor do I see us using it more than occassionally down the road.